defensive buffs should not be getting nerfed

Playboy_Shrek

for offensive buffs I get it, it makes you able to break a lot of mechs and just make the game a lot easier and simpler by blowing through enemies before they do their mechs often times, but for a lot of off meta tanks and tank builds you really not gonna be able to play those. not the biggest fan here, keep major/minor protection the same and keep major evasion as well. nobody is using those very often anyway. everyone is going for the damage buffs in trials and such and those being nerfed is reasonable.

ExistingRug61

I would assume that it would be not be ideal to only change offensive but leave defensive unchanged due to balancing offense vs defence in PvP.
ie: if an offensive debuff, like vulnerability, is reduced, then it makes sense that the corresponding defensive buff, in this case protection, also needs to be reduced. This means that defensive buffs can be (generally) equally countered with offensive debuffs, and if not the case would otherwise lead to the scenario where it is easier to defend than attack.

However, that's not to say that reducing defensive buffs doesn't come with its own issues - especially for PvE, where I assume all endgame content that already exists was designed around players having access to those defensive buffs at the value they were previously. So given these values are reducing this likely means that some already existing encounters are now going to be more difficult than they were designed to be.

Olupajmibanan

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

I would assume that it would be not be ideal to only change offensive but leave defensive unchanged due to balancing offense vs defence in PvP.
ie: if an offensive debuff, like vulnerability, is reduced, then it makes sense that the corresponding defensive buff, in this case protection, also needs to be reduced. This means that defensive buffs can be (generally) equally countered with offensive debuffs, and if not the case would otherwise lead to the scenario where it is easier to defend than attack.

However, that's not to say that reducing defensive buffs doesn't come with its own issues - especially for PvE, where I assume all endgame content that already exists was designed around players having access to those defensive buffs at the value they were previously. So given these values are reducing this likely means that some already existing encounters are now going to be more difficult than they were designed to be.

My concern is Maim. Minor Maim, which was previously 15% damage reduction, is tied to Heroic Slash and tanks could easily keep 100% uptime on the boss. Now Minor Maim is only 5% and Major Maim is 10%, so in order to get to previous mitigation level you have to have both debuffs. That would be fine, however they completely forgot to rework Major Maim sources and give them solid uptime. They previously argued with Major Maim being such a powerful debuff that the duration needed to be very short. However, this is not the case anymore and Major Maim is just a generic debuff now. However, without ability to effectively keep 100% uptime. The only thing that does that is Banis Torment, but you know.....sacrificing a 5pc set for generic debuff? Not even mentioning that Bani and all tether abilities still do not work on Dragons in Sunspire.

I think that these changes were done without seeing the bigger picture.

Playboy_Shrek

they really just wrecked pve tanking especially for non organized team and non DK-Warden tanks. especially nightblade that relies on minor maim and minor protection from class skills. which easily 100% uptime.

Olupajmibanan

My suggestion is to increase the duration of Major Maim debuff from Lady Thorn set to 20 seconds. That way, PvP would be unaffected but PvE tanks would have viable replacement for lost mitigation.

actosh

Void Bash (Power Bash)

2 – Adds 965 Maximum Health (Perfected Only)
2 – When you deal damage with Power Bash, you apply Call of the Void to yourself for 2 seconds. Enemies within 12 meters are immediately pulled to you. After Call of the Void ends, you apply Major Maim to enemies in the area for 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 13 seconds.

Maim effect works on Bosses as well. So u can get still near 100% uptime.

lozq

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

they really just wrecked pve tanking especially for non organized team and non DK-Warden tanks. especially nightblade that relies on minor maim and minor protection from class skills. which easily 100% uptime.

I think 'relies' is a bit strong. IMO the juicy part of cloak is the HOT, not the minor protection. And shade always felt like a wasted skill, as you could get the same debuff AND increased ultigen with low slash.

Don't think it's going to 'wreck tanking', although it might mean building more defensively for certain content.

Olupajmibanan

actosh wrote: »

Void Bash (Power Bash)

2 – Adds 965 Maximum Health (Perfected Only)
2 – When you deal damage with Power Bash, you apply Call of the Void to yourself for 2 seconds. Enemies within 12 meters are immediately pulled to you. After Call of the Void ends, you apply Major Maim to enemies in the area for 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 13 seconds.

Maim effect works on Bosses as well. So u can get still near 100% uptime.

Do you have free slot on your SnB bar for Power Bash? Because most tanks don't.

The only possibility is to replace Heroic Slash with Power Bash and drink Stamina+Magicka+Heroism pots. But still, you get only 5% more mitigation this way.

MentalxHammer

Percent based mitigation has been an issue in ESO for years, this change will be healthy for the game.

Olupajmibanan

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Percent based mitigation has been an issue in ESO for years, this change will be healthy for the game.

Hard Mode Lord Falgravn approves.

Kurat

To all the people who think the changes are ok. Happy sitting in longer queues because these nerfs are definitely not gonna increase the popularity of tanking. Also get used to more wiping coz alot newer tanks will have more trouble staying alive.

merevie

They have to bear in mind that only top pve and pvp guilds are going to build their group using a spreadsheet to ensure that everything is provided -in this case by a necro in the right gear and position in raid.

The game needs to meet the needs of most players -not just the elite.

Perspective needs to be maintained -yes, streamers and builders on you tube may be showing amazing numbers. But that's just not the majority of the client base.

Some of these changes seem to have made the mistake of forgetting what solo playerJoe Average is going to need when he casually joins his guild on Sunday for the weekly trial. And frankly, keeping Joe logging in and having fun is what pays the bills.

Chilly-McFreeze

merevie wrote: »

They have to bear in mind that only top pve and pvp guilds are going to build their group using a spreadsheet to ensure that everything is provided -in this case by a necro in the right gear and position in raid.

The game needs to meet the needs of most players -not just the elite.

Perspective needs to be maintained -yes, streamers and builders on you tube may be showing amazing numbers. But that's just not the majority of the client base.

Some of these changes seem to have made the mistake of forgetting what solo playerJoe Average is going to need when he casually joins his guild on Sunday for the weekly trial. And frankly, keeping Joe logging in and having fun is what pays the bills.

Well, isn't that what they are trying to archieve with the nerfed buffs? So it makes less of a difference if I have every buff on me or not. Guess it all depends on how casual you like it.

VaxtinTheWolf

Everyone is getting a little more resistances, like from from Minor Resolve, but some of those reductions are still pretty.. Major.

actosh

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Void Bash (Power Bash)

2 – Adds 965 Maximum Health (Perfected Only)
2 – When you deal damage with Power Bash, you apply Call of the Void to yourself for 2 seconds. Enemies within 12 meters are immediately pulled to you. After Call of the Void ends, you apply Major Maim to enemies in the area for 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 13 seconds.

Maim effect works on Bosses as well. So u can get still near 100% uptime.

Do you have free slot on your SnB bar for Power Bash? Because most tanks don't.

The only possibility is to replace Heroic Slash with Power Bash and drink Stamina+Magicka+Heroism pots. But still, you get only 5% more mitigation this way.

That set gives 10% since its Major, but do Tanks rly need it. Lord Falgravn fight excluded.
Right, who got space to run another Skill at least for that effect.

Olupajmibanan

actosh wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Void Bash (Power Bash)

2 – Adds 965 Maximum Health (Perfected Only)
2 – When you deal damage with Power Bash, you apply Call of the Void to yourself for 2 seconds. Enemies within 12 meters are immediately pulled to you. After Call of the Void ends, you apply Major Maim to enemies in the area for 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 13 seconds.

Maim effect works on Bosses as well. So u can get still near 100% uptime.

Do you have free slot on your SnB bar for Power Bash? Because most tanks don't.

The only possibility is to replace Heroic Slash with Power Bash and drink Stamina+Magicka+Heroism pots. But still, you get only 5% more mitigation this way.

That set gives 10% since its Major, but do Tanks rly need it. Lord Falgravn fight excluded.
Right, who got space to run another Skill at least for that effect.

Nahviintas on HM where you have to survive Breath+Mark is another example. And forgetting to refresh Minor Maim at 15% damage reduction was damn noticeable.

Just improving the duration on Major Maim sources such as Lady Thorn set would be sufficient to make up for the nerfs.

actosh

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Void Bash (Power Bash)

2 – Adds 965 Maximum Health (Perfected Only)
2 – When you deal damage with Power Bash, you apply Call of the Void to yourself for 2 seconds. Enemies within 12 meters are immediately pulled to you. After Call of the Void ends, you apply Major Maim to enemies in the area for 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 13 seconds.

Maim effect works on Bosses as well. So u can get still near 100% uptime.

Do you have free slot on your SnB bar for Power Bash? Because most tanks don't.

The only possibility is to replace Heroic Slash with Power Bash and drink Stamina+Magicka+Heroism pots. But still, you get only 5% more mitigation this way.

That set gives 10% since its Major, but do Tanks rly need it. Lord Falgravn fight excluded.
Right, who got space to run another Skill at least for that effect.

Nahviintas on HM where you have to survive Breath+Mark is another example. And forgetting to refresh Minor Maim at 15% damage reduction was damn noticeable.

Just improving the duration on Major Maim sources such as Lady Thorn set would be sufficient to make up for the nerfs.

Then we Tanks need to figure something out. Have to agree, missing on Minor Maim right now is Noticeable ^^

Maybe just use Heroic with Shadowrend and live with 10% instead of 15?

VaxtinTheWolf

actosh wrote: »

Then we Tanks need to figure something out. Have to agree, missing on Minor Maim right now is Noticeable ^^

Maybe just use Heroic with Shadowrend and live with 10% instead of 15?

I've been using Summon shade and Shadow rend on my NB tank and my Sorc tank for a while, before it got nerfed and was still minor main just because I really liked that thematic effect. I disliked the massive damage reduction, but at least it provided a unique damage reduction now. However, how minor maim is being reduced, so I feel like you just can't 'win' here.

Kalantris

I'm far from a typical tank build (at least that's what esologs tells me), but:

1. I have this weird feeling they are dumbing down the game. With all the nerfs to all buffs keeping them up isn't really that much of an issue anymore and won't be a source of major differences between good and bad groups. The main difference will be not stepping into stupid.
2. Gear composition means very little right now, I feel like Yolna + Alkosh + puncture is going to be sufficient for almost any situation outside some very rare and challenging encounters. Heroic was only a source of ult to me anyway, I can outheal almost any mechanic without any help anyway.
3. After calculating those changes I'm still immortal outside situations I royally screw up or the group wipes for other reasons and I just suicide. My effective HP dropped slightly and now I have literally no way of avoiding hitting 50k both phys and magic def (I should be able to hit cap almost naked). Maybe it's time to go "full ***" and just pair jorvuld with war machine and have 100% major slayer uptime? Not like I need any armor to actually tank anything.
4. The new S&B sounds nice, but come on, no way I'm switching masters for that. On trash, maybe. Or when I'm grouped with God Allmighty behind the healbars. Nothing beats 3/4BoL for 1.35k stam.
5. The penetration changes could make me drop tremor in stamina groups for lady thorn. Interesting proposition, a self-propelled alkosh. Especially when synergies are rare.
6. Frost staff is the change I'm really fond of. I've never held a frost staff on my tank before, it's going to be a new experience.

Best regards,
Kalantris