Should Healing be Highest Stat Based?

Sealish

So just a thought and question...
Would it be so terrible to have all healing abilities (resto staff, class, etc.) use the highest of Magic or Physical stats?
Healing is mainly about buffing anyways and not about how much actual healing throughput you can put out and so having a higher weapon damage vs spell damage cap shouldn't really effect things too much (plus healers don't build for max damage anyways cause you don't need much before you are well into overheal territory).

I just think it would allow some variety in roles for a stamina player and make for some interesting "In the thick of the fight" type healers.

Vevvev

Well stamina heals do exist that scale off the physical offensive stats as well as a few magicka heals that do scale off the highest offensive stats like Cauterize which Dragonknights have access to. Wardens seem best suited to the stamina healer role since they have skills dedicated to making stamina healing a possibility with things like Green Lotus, Soothing Spores, and Bull Netch.

Of course all ultimates scale off highest stats so if you got a healing ultimate it wouldn't really matter if you were a magic or stamina build.

Sealish

That's what made me think about it. There ARE healing skills that do this... and it's nice. I think that making them all like this would just open some nice alternative possibilities and wouldn't break balance since like I said before, healing big numbers isn't something that defines a good healer anyways (though the numbers still need to be big enough and resto staff on a stamina character is a bit low).

I would actually like to see more "Highest Stat" skills in general... but healing is a good start. I'd be quite happy if every skill that had a Stamina/Magicka morph choice was made stat agnostic since you can already use it with either stamina or magicka and it would just open up the ability to pick which morph you liked best.

I was so happy to see that all light/medium/heavy attacks from all weapons will be given this treatment like ultimates are in the next patch.

Starlight_Whisper

I wouldn't like it.

Sealish

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

I wouldn't like it.

What about it wouldn't you like?
How would making healing abilities choose your highest combat stat negatively effect your game experience? I'm genuinely curious, not just asking to be argumentative.

Vevvev

Sealish wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

I wouldn't like it.

What about it wouldn't you like?
How would making healing abilities choose your highest combat stat negatively effect your game experience? I'm genuinely curious, not just asking to be argumentative.

Well think of it this way. Imagine how OP having Resolving Vigor and Rapid Regeneration on at the same time at full power would be.

Jierdanit

Sealish wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

I wouldn't like it.

What about it wouldn't you like?
How would making healing abilities choose your highest combat stat negatively effect your game experience? I'm genuinely curious, not just asking to be argumentative.

In Pve that might not be too bad, but it would be completely ridiculous in PvP and would make everyone way tankier than they should be.
Its good the way it is rn.

Bobby_V_Rockit

I dunno, healing from magic seems much nicer than from sweat, or stamina

Sealish

Yeah, I guess it could be OP in PVP. An issue I see with having both Rapid and Resolving on at the same time is opportunity cost. Sure you could regain a lot of HP... but you couldn't do much else since you would have to recast them both so frequently. Almost half your actions would be healing. Battle Spirit hurts healing more than it hurts damage, and throw a defile into the mix and the cost to use these both at the same time far outweighs the benefit. This is just a guess though cause I play mainly PvE.

And if someone wants to get all sweaty with me to restore my energy and health, chances are I'd be game

ccfeeling

I have no idea the hp cost healing abilities , what do they scale?

Hotdog_23

I like the idea and have suggested it before but the idea never caught any traction.

Be safe and have fun

BejaProphet

No.

Games like this reach a point to where they are almost hopelessly complex. What this means is that every time the developers change something there are the consequences they desired and at least twice as many they didn’t see coming.

This is why they don’t just do a patch to fix/balance and then it is done for all time. They have to keep adjusting.

Anyways the big point: you don’t just pull a major lever and say, “I think this could be cool.” If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it.

Sealish

BejaProphet wrote: »

No.

Games like this reach a point to where they are almost hopelessly complex. What this means is that every time the developers change something there are the consequences they desired and at least twice as many they didn’t see coming.

This is why they don’t just do a patch to fix/balance and then it is done for all time. They have to keep adjusting.

Anyways the big point: you don’t just pull a major lever and say, “I think this could be cool.” If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it.

I get that, and that's why I like getting other people's opinions on the things that I think would make the game better. I play PvE pretty much exclusively and so the PvP implications of such a change are something I didn't think about initially.

And this isn't just an "I think this would be cool" even though I DO think it would be cool. I think it's a system that could use improvement. Right now it is possible for any class to play as a Magicka DPS, Tank, or Healer but as Stamina you can only play as DPS or Tank. I feel like there is a hole there that could use filling. The solution I saw was instead of making a dedicated Stamina Healing weapon (which I don't see ZOS making since they haven't made a new weapon since launch), just allowing the one we have to scale off either stat; and as an extension to that might as well allow all healing abilities to do the same so that there are more options available (there are SO MANY DPS abilities in the game that having a separation doesn't really reduce options much but the same is not true for healing).

I guess what I'm saying is that I look at the system and see it as broke and want to see it fixed.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

You would certainly need to consider PVP. Stamina is arguably more powerful than magic in PVP. If they woke up tomorrow with a host of new skills that now scaled off stamina and weapon power, that power gap would be beyond repair.

Starlight_Whisper

Sealish wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

I wouldn't like it.

What about it wouldn't you like?
How would making healing abilities choose your highest combat stat negatively effect your game experience? I'm genuinely curious, not just asking to be argumentative.

I am simply biased to pure Magicka world. Though stamina vs Magicka dps is huge balance problem so I can recongize stamina healers who would make this a problem for healers.

BejaProphet

@Sealish I hear you. And though it might have come across as dismissive, I was not meaning to be so. It would just be a big change, when the intent might could accomplished simply by revisiting the Stam tool kit.

Sealish

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Sealish I hear you. And though it might have come across as dismissive, I was not meaning to be so. It would just be a big change, when the intent might could accomplished simply by revisiting the Stam tool kit.

That's fair. I think we are both just looking at the problem from the other side and each trying to do what we both think would be "Lowest Impact"

To me, making available skills work for both resources in this case seems like the lowest impact. Damage and Healing Scaling Rules seem to be the same for Magicka and Stamina and so it makes sense to me to just allow the set to be used by both Magicka and Stamina players rather than make a whole new set of Stamina skills that effectively did the same thing.

The only real unbalancing factor I have seen people mention for PvP (since PvE doesn't really seem to have any given the role of a PvE Healer) is the stacking of Resolving Vigor and Rapid Regeneration. A simple fix to that would be to effectively make Resolving Vigor into Rapid Regeneration and then make the staff morph do something else. That way everyone still gets access to one strong but short single target HoT, it isn't bound to a weapon so it can still be used by people in builds without a resto staff, and stacking it with whatever Rapid Regeneration turns into (like maybe bringing back mutagen or something like that) wouldn't be crazy in PvP since it wouldn't give people more healing per second than they can get now without HUGE opportunity and damage cost.

It might even level the playing field a bit between Stamina and Magicka in PvP since Magicka people wouldn't have to give up a DPS weapon slot to gave access to a strong self heal and could also double up on damage bars (or a damage and S&B Bar).

Yeah there would be tweaking required, but there always would be.

Rungar

heals should be the same as how sorcerer shields are done. Max stat governed by health.

Sealish

Rungar wrote: »

heals should be the same as how sorcerer shields are done. Max stat governed by health.

Although interesting, I don't think that that would be a good idea. It would work nicely if the only job a healer was expected to do was heal but it's not. A healer is expected to contribute to party damage as well in PvE, and having them have a HUGE health pool in PvP with abilities that scale off of it could make them next to unkillable. It is by design that a tank built character can't be a full power healer. That would be way too much survivability.

Rungar

Sealish wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

heals should be the same as how sorcerer shields are done. Max stat governed by health.

Although interesting, I don't think that that would be a good idea. It would work nicely if the only job a healer was expected to do was heal but it's not. A healer is expected to contribute to party damage as well in PvE, and having them have a HUGE health pool in PvP with abilities that scale off of it could make them next to unkillable. It is by design that a tank built character can't be a full power healer. That would be way too much survivability.

sorc shields still scale with max stat. The health govenor limits power it doesnt give any unless you have the max stat. Tanks will never hit the caps and their heals will be the same as they are now since they lack the max stat stam or mag. Heals that are based on health would be no change because the cap and the stat are the same thing. This does change two things though:

1) reduction of healing potential for pure dps making 3 dps/tank more challenging.
2) takes the healer out of poor mans dps land and puts them uniquely in the middle of tank and dps. This makes possibilities for healers to do dps or off tank depending on how they build their characters.

so we end up with our frost staff frontbar healer offtank support dps.....

Sealish

Rungar wrote: »

sorc shields still scale with max stat. The health govenor limits power it doesnt give any unless you have the max stat. Tanks will never hit the caps and their heals will be the same as they are now since they lack the max stat stam or mag. Heals that are based on health would be no change because the cap and the stat are the same thing. This does change two things though:

1) reduction of healing potential for pure dps making 3 dps/tank more challenging.
2) takes the healer out of poor mans dps land and puts them uniquely in the middle of tank and dps. This makes possibilities for healers to do dps or off tank depending on how they build their characters.

so we end up with our frost staff frontbar healer offtank support dps.....

Oh ok, I misunderstood. I don't think that would work very well.

If a healer lost a chunk of healing power because their max HP was too low, they would have to put more HP in at the expense of Magicka/Spellpower/Crit. This would bring their healing cap back up to what it was but also result in a loss of healing/damage power due to the stat changes. So what would effectively happen is healers would just be nerfed across the board. They would loose either effectiveness at their role, or loose effectiveness at their role AND do less damage while having more HP than they really need. Given the choice, I think most healers would just leave the build as-is and suffer the lower healing caps. If anything this would incentivize the 3DPS/Tank style gameplay even more and be a further step to phasing out healers all together. None of the dungeons need an off-tank, and Trials already have two full tanks. A Healer/DPS serves the party much better than a Healer/Tank, especially since the job of the healer (after making sure people don't die from unavoidable damage) is to buff the party to increase DPS as much as possible while contributing their own.

If you were going to do that, it would be much easier to just nerf all healing spell potency since the end result is the same but the mechanics behind it are less convoluted.

Rungar

healers will end up using the ice staff frontbar anyhow because frontbar is required to proc the brittle effect. Why not go all in here and improve the healer role at the same time.

you think it would reduce healing on healers but that isnt exactly true. Most healers dont have maxed out spell damage like a dps would have and i would wager many already have more health as well.

all this will accomplish is to bring dps healing down a peg, healers and tanks healing would likely stay roughly the same and since healers will be sporting their new ice staves next patch it makes sense to give them a little bonus to be a little tankier to go with their new defensive abilities from the ice staff.

most groups wipe only when the tank dies and no other time. With the new ice staff and a few tweaks the healer could step in briefly when needed. For average groups i think it would be a great boon. Also the warden healer, who will take the heaviest damage from the change to major and minor buffs will get at least some benefit back from minor toughness if built properly.

Sealish

While true that Healers don't have maxed out DPS stats like a full DPS player does, they do generally have comparable HP; enough HP to not get 1-shot by anything that isn't a mechanic meant to be soaked by the tank or outright avoided. This is usually the 18k mark.

Limiting Healing to 50% of your HP for burst healing, 100% for HoTs would definitely reduce the amount of healing your average healer will do even without being max stated into DPS. And then past that it would entirely negate critical heals.

I think an interesting way to make healing weaker for DPS but not hurt Healers may be to make Heals not crit, but gain bonus power from Magicka/Stamina Recovery as if it were spell/weapon power. This is a stat that Healers already build for but DPS do not to near the same extent, and it would make huge healing crits from DPS (who build up crit a LOT) impossible. It would also make healing more consistent. You would know exactly how much your heals would hit for and could plan accordingly.

dazee

Far more successful games have made healer damage stat also the healing stat. I fully support it. There should be no spell power, healing power, physical attack. there should be just "Power"

this would solve so many false choice issues forcing people into cookie cutter all magicka or all stamina builds. Total stats+Power should be what calculates base damage.

Sealish

dazee wrote: »

Far more successful games have made healer damage stat also the healing stat. I fully support it. There should be no spell power, healing power, physical attack. there should be just "Power"

this would solve so many false choice issues forcing people into cookie cutter all magicka or all stamina builds. Total stats+Power should be what calculates base damage.

This is how the game pretty much works right now. You have one power attribute that effects your skills be it Spell Power or Weapon Power. Magicka/Stamina basically translate into Spell/Weapon Power at a rate of 10.5:1.

dazee

Sealish wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

Far more successful games have made healer damage stat also the healing stat. I fully support it. There should be no spell power, healing power, physical attack. there should be just "Power"

this would solve so many false choice issues forcing people into cookie cutter all magicka or all stamina builds. Total stats+Power should be what calculates base damage.

This is how the game pretty much works right now. You have one power attribute that effects your skills be it Spell Power or Weapon Power. Magicka/Stamina basically translate into Spell/Weapon Power at a rate of 10.5:1.

Not quite though, because ESO works differently to begin with. We can choose how to build our characters but most of the possible choices are poor ones.. leaving us with precious few options for most builds.

svendf

Healer is multi support and should not be changed in direction OP suggest. Other roles should work on their succes in content same way other´s before them - that´s what I do on my healer, tank and dd´s.

Many of these post seems to me as just hand holding posts - wanna change the role to make it more easy - moore buffing, dps healers

Dps are already high as is. It´s up to everyone to use it the best they can.

Good day

dazee

DPS is too high on dps built characters. not support or tank.

svendf

dazee wrote: »

DPS is too high on dps built characters. not support or tank.

Not for you it seems. My dd and tank neeed a healer who can heal - dps ? I will fix that.. Tank and healer are ok at my end,

Na it´s good as it is. four tanks can do vWGT not because of dps more because of knowldge, experience and patience.