ESO: The antisocial MMO

Faulgor

I should have made this topic 5 years ago. Maybe I did, but I was recently compelled to think about it again.

ESO is truly godawful in getting people to play together.
Huh, you might say, wasn't that the whole point of One Tamriel? No more barriers between characters of different levels, everyone can play together?
True, but shortsighted. The issues are much deeper than different character levels.

Leveling

Reaching max level in ESO is a triviality. That might be an understandable design choice, but it means there is little incentive to group up for leveling, especially for advanced and veteran players. Overland content, where most of the leveling takes place, is also so easy by design that no player should ever need help from a more experienced or well equipped player. Likewise, most skill line leveling such as the Mage's Guild or Psijic Order can in theory be done "together", but merely side-by-side instead of actively (or inter-actively) assisting each other.

Questing

All quest content, which is the majority of all PvE content, is designed for solo players. There were attempts at release to accommodate group questing through phasing and similar technologies, but those made things even more confusing (especially because they were applied inconsistently) and were eventually removed. I also have to say that I have never seen multiplayer questing done well in any game, ever, so this might not be a good area to tackle this issue.

Crafting

Usually, at least in most online RPGs I know, this is not considered a group activity. However, in the beginning of ESO, it was feasible or even encouraged for different players to level different crafting professions, because skill points were limited and said professions required a higher investment to max out. This required at least some coordination between players. Since then, new achievements, writ drop calculations, furniture crafting, etc. have pushed for the creation of dedicated crafting characters that max out all professions and don't need anyone else.

Group Instances and Endgame

In my opinion the worst offender. After being funneled through questing, solo leveling and, possibly, decorating your house, you might expect to finally get to play with your friends at endgame with a maxed out character. Well, sadly, that only works if you have exactly 3 or 11 friends. Not more. Not less.
Over the years I have seen numerous raiding guilds fall apart because people kept leaving. The issue is that you have to put considerable effort into organizing, planning and preparing a proper trial run, and if one person doesn't show up (and with 12 people the chance is quite high), the whole endeavor stops in its tracks. Or you have more than 12 people who would like to join, and those who don't make the cut feel excluded and eventually leave as well.
But let's say you don't even want to do endgame trials. Nobody needs to be that committed to have fun with their friends. But even simple, non-veteran group dungeons have exactly the same issue. I can't count the number of times where I was looking forward all day to run a particular dungeon with my guildmates, only to be left out when the group was already full. How is that acceptable for a game that is supposed to bring people together?
Yes, it might be easy enough to fill a group through the group finder (if it works). Unless you want to play as a DD, a role the whole game has set you up for up to that point - then you have to endure wait times that make you wish for a Dragon Break.

But there is so much more to do, you might say. Sure, none of this applies to PvP, which I have no issue with besides lackluster rewards. Some people might also enjoy roleplaying in Riften, decorating their houses together or collecting skyshards side by side.
However, all of these can be done from the very beginning. There is no drive to actually play the progression RPG side of the game, it goes nowhere.
Usually, in RPGs, you start weak and feeble, and through improving your character's skills and gear, you become stronger and more capable to tackle harder challenges with better rewards. And in online RPGs, this is best done by cooperating with other players, who can help you and make up for a deficiency in your level, skills, or gear.

ESO, on the other hand, almost despises RPG progression mechanics. It wants to get you to endgame as fast as possible, preferably without help so as not to drive away potential Crown Store customers, but once there, you are left with nothing to do outside of very narrow group instances. This has created a situation where - which has been my experience as a player since beta - you spend most of your time soloing, gearing up and maxing out your character, and then putting them on a shelf, hoping for the day when there's an update that might actually let you play them with your friends.

As far as I can see, there are two major ways this could be addressed. The first is something probably nobody wants, the second one of the most requested features.

1. Make leveling harder as to require group assistance.
The only upside I see in this is that it would actually gel better with the RPG mechanics. You might actually have to gear and skill your character in a certain way so as to get the best XP in a specific group composition in a specific location. This creates a tighter experience from level 1 to 50 in terms of game design, but would make everyone cry.

2. Add new endgame PvE content that can be done with groups of any size.
Preferably, this could be done through higher difficulty settings for overland content with new rewards. The upside being that, obviously, the content is already there, and everyone is scaled anyway. Effectively, you just expand something that is currently merely a transitionary leveling activity/area into an endgame activity/area.
Alternatively, ZOS could develop entirely new instanced encounters that scale to the size of your group, but that would require considerable more effort for significantly less content.

But, instead, we are getting a new solo arena for all the lone wolves out there. It seems I've been talking to a wall all these years.

I have two long time friends with whom I've been playing MMOs for 20 years. One has played ESO since release with me, but eventually quit several months ago because of the reasons laid out above. Outside these gated instances, there's just nothing to do that would let us play together meaningfully. He used to run trials a lot, but the effort to get exactly 12 people together ultimately proofed too frustrating for the rewards.
The other one just recently bought ESO to play with me. It almost broke my heart when I wondered what we could do together and I came up with nothing. What was I supposed to do besides craft good gear for him? What's the benefit of running beside him while he quests and hits zombies? My presence isn't going to affect his gameplay in the least. It's not like he needs heals or support skills in overland content.

So now, we are playing the same MMO we already played 20 years ago.
Because we can actually play together.

SamanthaCarter

Only PvP matters

jm42

another demand to make the game to be something TS like. why you come to solo-based game and make such statements to force it to be group-based? there are huge amount of people that like to play solo and love this game for that

Everstorm

It being so solo friendly is the main reason I play this game over other games. Change that and I'm out of here.

BlueViolet

I don't mind an overland challenge, it was a little harder at launch, but I don't want to be locked in to gearing or skilling my character in a certain way to assist a group that I wouldn't even want to be in.

I like to play the game alone, I don't want to play with people 99% of the time.
I play a different way than most people who want to be social. I like to stop and read every book, or pick every plant, and talk to every NPC. How many groups are going to stand around in a ruin while I read every book I encounter in a bookshelf? I'd say zero.

Having more group content or activities added to the game wouldn't bother me, there should be something for everyone, but I don't want my playstyle to become redundant and my own play time become reliant on a group just because someone else wants to tailor their own playstyle to that of their friends.

Edit - Of course, I realise that the suggestion isn't to eliminate solo play altogether, but.. I dunno, I guess I just like being "anti-social" I suppose.
I just can't see other people being tolerant of my reading or collecting without getting bored.

Integral1900

I’m here because I can be around like minded people and play my stories in peace. I can group up if I feel like it. One sure way to kill this game is forced groups. Craglorn tried that and it was an utter and unmitigated failure

Pauwer

It's only antisocial if the player is. And nothing wrong with that either. I think it's great that you can play either way.

Bodži

You could add that many dungeons are soloable.

Personally, I like to play alone most of the time, I don't do PvP except to unlock the skills that I need on certain character (war horn, vigor).

anitajoneb17_ESO

You're right on one point : at endgame there are only two ways to actually play together : dungeons/trials or PvP.

But besides that ESO is encouraging socializing in literally every other aspect of the game, from crafting to trading. Also many people level together due to increased XP. Many places in the game (world bosses, public dungeons) are designed to be best enjoyed in a small group of 2 or 3.

I'm not sure what more or what else you're asking for.

As you said, questing is a solo thing in any game anyway.

Gythral

Craglorn
- been there, done that

everyone walked away!

craybest

Many of the things you wrote are generic for all MMOs. I see no difference.
And we already have content for groups of any size. World bosses and harrowstorms or dragons.

Old_Foggy

I bought this game for the fact I can play solo.

For some of us playing solo is the way we want to play, and as I have to go afk often which isn't a problem when I'm doing my own thing but it wouldn't work if I was in a group and I had to to keep stopping.

Forcing people to group would ruin the game for many folk I'm sure. I imagine there are many guilds out there that offer a lot of group runs for dungeons etc. I do think they could add more content for larger groups which would help those being left out to groups already full.

Olauron

It is not a bad idea to scale existing group instanced content to the group size. If you happen to have less than 4 people (including yourself), dungeon can be scaled to your group. If you happen to have more than 4 people (including yourself), dungeon can be scaled to your group too. The same with trials.

The important thing to remember is to make such scaling (at least scaling to lower numbers) optional. There are players who like to solo dungeons or to do dungeons with just one friend to increase challenge. There is no need to remove this opportunity from them.

Daemons_Bane

I came here for the TES experience, so I am quite happy as is

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Making questing group only would kill this game
Craglorn was group only, it failed now its like every other zone

anitajoneb17_ESO

I got what you need : FISHING !

It is playable with a group any size and it scales to your group's size.

tsaescishoeshiner

Almost all of my gametime is spent being social with other people. Housing, daily quests, dungeons, and battlegrounds. I don't need to shelve characters or wait for any content? Finding a group to do a dungeon isn't always guaranteed, but being in several active guilds really helps.

You could totally do random dungeons with your friend to help get Undaunted levels, experience, and skill points. I just ran a friend through Skyreach a bunch of times last night.

This sounds partly like a player or playstyle issue. Which is fine, you don't have to jive with ESO.

BUT, it is true that the content that DOES scale based on group size (world bosses/dragons/Harrowstorms) are trivial ones compared to veteran DLC content. But you can always just find 2 friends and then queue for a random fourth? I've actually met friends like this several times in the past.

For what it's worth, Imperial City is like the perfect content for variable-size groups. You earn different scaling rewards and PvP prowess based on how many people are with you, and there's a broad spectrum of activities (district bosses, sewer bosses, banner bosses, Barathrum Centratta, PvP) for groups of different ability level. And really good rewards that all levels can access but still considerably benefit players with more RPG investment.

Sidenote, another benefit of ESO being solo-friendly is that a lot of those solo players wind up warming up to social aspects of the game. I know I'm not alone in playing solo for a long time before slowly joining a guild and, in my case, finding a Discord community. I think this is part of why ESO has overall a more positive community than other MMOs.

edit: fixed words

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I got what you need : FISHING !

It is playable with a group any size and it scales to your group's size.

Not even that, sadly. Not quite. Fishing is kind of flexible, but it definitely has a sweet spot for the group size. It's not really solo friendly, because the chances of a good catch increase with the number of players, and it very quickly turns into a stupid race between fishing spots when you are too many in the group and the spots run the risk of drying up before you even get your first catch.

A few things in the game are designed to scale with the amount of players, dolmens being one of them, but they don't scale enough to provide a real challenge for a group of any size.

Concerning "things to do with one friend", I would recommend entering a group dungeon for a nice duo experience. Normal mode for an easy run, vet mode for a fun challenge. I would recommend staying out of the DLC dungeons at first, because some of them can be really nasty with an incomplete group -- even in normal mode.

For a slightly less challenging duo run, try the group delves in Craglorn. They are soloable, but not all that easy when you are alone, so having one or two friends join you can be fun. The group delves are instanced, like group dungeons, so the people you enter with are the only ones you will see inside.

BRogueNZ

It is a solo friendly game, I'm pretty anti social but I like being around real people in a game rather than AI.
Doesn't mean I'll be all howdy doody bud les play aye' but just real people around is enough.
People are ok when you can log out heh

anitajoneb17_ESO

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I got what you need : FISHING !

It is playable with a group any size and it scales to your group's size.

Not even that, sadly. Not quite. Fishing is kind of flexible, but it definitely has a sweet spot for the group size. It's not really solo friendly, because the chances of a good catch increase with the number of players, and it very quickly turns into a stupid race between fishing spots when you are too many in the group and the spots run the risk of drying up before you even get your first catch.

My advice about fishing was more meant as a joke, and your comment to it is correct, but can't it be part of a fun group game ? Getting there first, knowing the fishing holes locations, the shortcuts to them, etc... all this makes for a nice racing game.

Some players seem to expect everything from the devs - including socializing. However, the best group activities I've experienced in ESO were player-made games tailored to our taste and built with the tools provided by the game (even if totally away of their original purpose). I believe one of ESO's greatest assets is to allow that sort or freedom.

redlink1979

Pauwer wrote: »

It's only antisocial if the player is.(...)

^ This

Easily_Lost

Everstorm wrote: »

It being so solo friendly is the main reason I play this game over other games. Change that and I'm out of here.

^^ THIS ^^

Nairinhe

Being able to do stuff together - good.
Being forced to do stuff together - bad.

Leveling: I level my healer in group dungeons. In hindsight should have leveled tank this way too from the beginning, not just her several last levels.

Questing: I prefer getting mah immershun solo, bot nobody really stops you from questing with friends. For example, duo-ing dungeons with my BF is our "story mode". Even then I found it uncomfortable to coordinate unless we see each other's screens.

Crafting: I highly enjoy being able to craft my own stuff, so cannot really comment on that except to say that you can craft items for others to research or decon for leveling. But, yes, that's it.

Group content: You need at least 3 or 11 friends to play with some of them if you need a full group. If you need just a clear - you often don't need a full group. If a group got full without you - make your own. Or group with randoms. It's even more "social" than playing with people you already know, no?

Chaos2088

Faulgor

jm42 wrote: »

another demand to make the game to be something TS like. why you come to solo-based game and make such statements to force it to be group-based? there are huge amount of people that like to play solo and love this game for that

I thought this was a sarcastic comment, but I guess you are sincere?
I don't know what "TS" means, but an MMO is, by definition, not a solo-based game. Otherwise you just have a single player game with a cash shop. Asking for more group based content in a multiplayer game is the least objectionable request I can possibly imagine.

I'm also confused about all the comments that they don't want to be "forced to group". How have I even suggested that? That's exactly my point, that forced group sizes are limiting gameplay. How you can infer from that that I want to eliminate solo players is beyond my comprehension. As I said, I play mostly solo myself, partly by choice. Or used to, anyway.

Alas, it seems I'm an old breed and most people are happy with this style of "game". Or rather, everybody else, like my friends, already left.

Iselin

As an old fart who was already an adult when I played my first MMO, Asheron's Call, in 1999, all i can tell you is that MMOs change as does the crowd that plays them.

Forcing old ideas (as in make it harder so you need to group) on MMOs is not a solution to anything and forced grouping would turn everyone right off.

Players want options and choice to enjoy a game any way they want and developers are wise to cater to that wish for variety and options.

This does not mean that there aren't some things they can do that encourage grouping more than others. Games have done that in the past with varying degrees of success. Rift did it with their zone invasions, Warhammer Online did Public Quests as did GW2. Even ESO has some of that with the anchor and equivalent events.

That's the kind of group stuff everyone enjoys because it's more spontaneous, totally optional, no need to queue or sign up and you don't have to put up with elitist jerks monitoring every group member's performance. I enjoy that kind of social community interaction infinitely more than the more formal stuff.

Modern MMOs are fine and got this way because the internal metrics that all MMOs have show them what people actually do and how they play the games, not just the stuff they say in forums.

Michae

Um, solo MMO stuff is why I play this. If I had to group up everytime I wanted something done I would end up never playing. I'm an adult with responsibilities, I don't have that much time tu burn so playing ESO solo at my own pace suits me very well. My friends don't play it, and I don't play their games since we have different tastes. ESO is what it is, if you want more group focus or harder content, well, there's plenty of other games like that.

barney2525

I don't get it.

Why do people have the idea that Forcing players to do things they do Not want to do is a good thing?

I play this game because I CAN choose what I want to do. I can solo when I want and I can group when I want. I LIKE the fact that I can level up on my own without being FORCED into groups.

I recently have tried ffxiv. Aside from is being dog-slow leveling for a beginner, I Don't like it telling me I MUST find a group to continue on through the Main Quest.

This game is Fine as is. It gives the players multiple options for advancing. It also rewards those who DO group with items you can't get outside of dungeons/trials.

IMHO

MrBrownstone

To encourage grouping, making it harder to solo is not the answer. People should be able to solo as well. Just add some benefits, maybe 10% extra xp per group member up to 4. Forcing it will be bad.

jm42

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't know what "TS" means, but an MMO is, by definition, not a solo-based game. Otherwise you just have a single player game with a cash shop.

TS means topic starter
And if you are confused with "MMO" - you could already understand that ESO is just another elder scrolls with some co-op. Case closed

SeaGtGruff

I don't think that all overland content is so easy that grouping is never necessary. For instance, there are some world bosses that can be soloed by a lot of players, but there are also some world bosses that are too difficult for a lot of players to solo, so you can frequently see players asking for help with them in zone chat. I tend to play solo most of the time, but if I'm not trying to get my crafting writs done before daily rollover, and am not otherwise busy with some event-related activities, I enjoy going to help random players beat some world boss, or help them finish off a dolmen if they're having trouble with the final boss.

But it does seem like players are divided into perhaps three categories, in my opinion-- (1) those who prefer to play solo; (2) those who enjoy alternating between solo play and group play depending on various factors; and (3) those who prefer group play, whether it's 1vX in a PvP situation or a group trying to clear a dungeon or trial. I'm usually in the first category, but can be in the second category if I'm not too involved in some sort of solo activity, and am much less often in the third category.