As long as Stamdens are this strong I don't want to hear another cry about anything

pauld1_ESO

When you can run around no CP with 30k and still melt people, never getting below 50% without even having to LOS.....you're broken. Period.

ZOS, learn how to balance. Weapon/Spell damage should auto-scale down with increase in health, period. No one should do nightblade glass cannon damage in a tanky build like these Stamdens do right now.

pauld1_ESO

[Quoted post has been removed.]

Dude, seriously. There are dozens of Stamdens running around Ravenwatch solo every night for a reason. Nice try though.

Canned_Apples

@pauld1_ESO if you want to beat them, roll one. We’re currently in the malacath meta, and wardens+magDKs benefits the most from running eternal + malacath + 2 proc sets/brp bow + master dw. Unfortunately, it’ll probably stay this way until new p2w items are introduced.

I never thought I’d miss the previous combat devs. I doubt things would’ve ever gotten this bad again with them.

I can’t even bring myself to do the dailies.

Drom_Athra_Destroyer

Stamdens can run around with 40k health and still nuke people. It's wild

Waffennacht

You mean like:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XlXNNNli1Fs

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/545122/destroyer-and-health-sorcs#latest

Or

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/317589/bg-mvp-peace-tank-ultra-tanky-sorc-necro-troll-tank-very-punny-no-shields-lol-stonethorn#latest

What about these builds?

Atherakhia

Stamina in general is OP and needs an across the board nerf.

Sleep724

Atherakhia wrote: »

Stamina in general is OP and needs an across the board nerf.

You mean the P2W stamwarden and stamnecro? Or what about MagSorc, the same class that’s been top tier since almost release? StamDK is carried by leap and experienced players who refuse to give up on it. And Stamplar, is well... I dunno anymore because I rarely see them in pvp and they just took a big nerf recently anyway.

Atherakhia

Sleep724 wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

Stamina in general is OP and needs an across the board nerf.

You mean the P2W stamwarden and stamnecro? Or what about MagSorc, the same class that’s been top tier since almost release? StamDK is carried by leap and experienced players who refuse to give up on it. And Stamplar, is well... I dunno anymore because I rarely see them in pvp and they just took a big nerf recently anyway.

That's not at all what I'm saying.

Mag Sorc needs to be nerfed, no one can claim otherwise. But aside from a few outliers, there is rarely ever any discussion about any of the mag classes in this game because most of them simply don't work. The few times we see discussions about other mag classes it has less to do with the class and more to do with the stupidly out of whack set combinations that are carrying them.

Stamina is different. Not stamina wardens or stamina necromancers; Stamina. From the simple fact that dodge roll alone is more powerful than any defensive option mag classes have to the fact a stamina player can break free without concern where mag can barely do it twice. And that's just the tip of the iceberg without even talking about things like how stamina weapons are designed ten times better than staves.

Stamina is overpowered.

techyeshic

Atherakhia wrote: »

Sleep724 wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

Stamina in general is OP and needs an across the board nerf.

You mean the P2W stamwarden and stamnecro? Or what about MagSorc, the same class that’s been top tier since almost release? StamDK is carried by leap and experienced players who refuse to give up on it. And Stamplar, is well... I dunno anymore because I rarely see them in pvp and they just took a big nerf recently anyway.

That's not at all what I'm saying.

Mag Sorc needs to be nerfed, no one can claim otherwise. But aside from a few outliers, there is rarely ever any discussion about any of the mag classes in this game because most of them simply don't work. The few times we see discussions about other mag classes it has less to do with the class and more to do with the stupidly out of whack set combinations that are carrying them.

Stamina is different. Not stamina wardens or stamina necromancers; Stamina. From the simple fact that dodge roll alone is more powerful than any defensive option mag classes have to the fact a stamina player can break free without concern where mag can barely do it twice. And that's just the tip of the iceberg without even talking about things like how stamina weapons are designed ten times better than staves.

Stamina is overpowered.

Outside of stamden or stamcro and magsorc, I dont think mag classes in general are too far behind. Magplar and magdk are pretty decent ( outside AOE testing) in CP PvP. Magden might be a bit behind alone, but support wise in a decent spot. Magcro doesn't even have a niche anymore.

Talking no CP though? More about procs than class right now IMO.

Canned_Apples

Magcro is complete garbage now.
It is the only Magicka class that is worse than a Magicka warden.
That’s probably why I rarely see any.

Magdk is 100% about procs in no cp. I’ve yet to come across one that isn’t running a malacath + grothdar +overwhelming build.
Stack dots then wait for procs.

Fawn4287

Atherakhia wrote: »

Stamina in general is OP and needs an across the board nerf.

Hmm, considering top kills/damage in BGs is combined tie between magsorc, magdk and top for healing is magden and magplar, what basis is that claim made on? If anything magica builds running 7 sturdy, eternal vigor and sugar skulls desperately need a nerf, I can burn a whole bar worth of mag or stam attacking before they run out of stam holding block.

Cinbri

It is weird that OP used stamdens in thread name and not stamcro which is literally old, even more op version of stamden.

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Magcro is complete garbage now.
It is the only Magicka class that is worse than a Magicka warden.
That’s probably why I rarely see any.

Yes, magcro not that strong but it weird that you compare it to strongest magicka pvp spec. Magdens ahead of other magicka specs, inluding sorcs, as much as stamcro and stamden ahead of other stam specs. Obviously every single magicka class will be below magdens.
Idk how on NA but on EU majority of "small-scalers" who play wardens or stamcros are only playing it coz it overperforming, i.e. in language of eso "fun to play". And they have no problem admit it.

techyeshic wrote: »

Talking no CP though? More about procs than class right now IMO.

And sadly thats how it is and for that reason noCP is no longer as healthy as it was during release in Morrowind. Thats problem of zos trying to balance pvp around CP and noCP which is turned as disastrous fail in the end.
Hopefully at least this problem zos will fix (will they..) next year with redesign of CP System, so CP will be in perfect spot and zos can easily delete noCP pvp and than start properly treat balance around singular system.
Even tho i didnt played CP pvp since Morrowind - jumping in CP IC was much funnier than noCP due to zos was addressing its issue (which in meantime made noCP balance much worse). Only problem I noticed is that comparable class balance on CP is blended strongly due to how CP cover weak spots and thus lowering "skill floor". One one hand it nice to have system where all classes are somehow near but on other hand it masking problem of how classes perfrom byitself without additional boosts and covered weaknesses by CP. And thats might turn into gigantic problem next year when zos will address CP system. On noCP class disbalance is very visible when procsets are not involved.

Pauwer

Mag warden is not crap, it's very strong. But again, this is the thing, you are strong on any class if you know how to play it. Like i have access to the necro class, but i never bothered to learn to play 'em, i never log on my necros. And yes i have died to uber op stamnecros, but like, the playstyle doesn't appeal to me, so i'd rather learn how to counter them. Some play awesome stam wardens too. But some also play awesome stam sorcs. Every class can be op if the player can play it.

Ariades_swe

Can't take people serious who says magdens bad now...

Firstmep

Cinbri wrote: »

It is weird that OP used stamdens in thread name and not stamcro which is literally old, even more op version of stamden.

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Magcro is complete garbage now.
It is the only Magicka class that is worse than a Magicka warden.
That’s probably why I rarely see any.

Yes, magcro not that strong but it weird that you compare it to strongest magicka pvp spec. Magdens ahead of other magicka specs, inluding sorcs, as much as stamcro and stamden ahead of other stam specs. Obviously every single magicka class will be below magdens.
Idk how on NA but on EU majority of "small-scalers" who play wardens or stamcros are only playing it coz it overperforming, i.e. in language of eso "fun to play". And they have no problem admit it.

techyeshic wrote: »

Talking no CP though? More about procs than class right now IMO.

And sadly thats how it is and for that reason noCP is no longer as healthy as it was during release in Morrowind. Thats problem of zos trying to balance pvp around CP and noCP which is turned as disastrous fail in the end.
Hopefully at least this problem zos will fix (will they..) next year with redesign of CP System, so CP will be in perfect spot and zos can easily delete noCP pvp and than start properly treat balance around singular system.
Even tho i didnt played CP pvp since Morrowind - jumping in CP IC was much funnier than noCP due to zos was addressing its issue (which in meantime made noCP balance much worse). Only problem I noticed is that comparable class balance on CP is blended strongly due to how CP cover weak spots and thus lowering "skill floor". One one hand it nice to have system where all classes are somehow near but on other hand it masking problem of how classes perfrom byitself without additional boosts and covered weaknesses by CP. And thats might turn into gigantic problem next year when zos will address CP system. On noCP class disbalance is very visible when procsets are not involved.

I mean I don't know about stamcro have the defile and some good mitigation, but at least from what I can see stamden is just outright better, stamcro is a bit more technical with the corpse play, on stamden you just sub+dizzy+db and play defense till ult back up, very simple stuff.
Having played both, stamden feels a fair bit tankier with shimmering offering good ranged defense and Arctic blast being a really strong heal.
Either way malacath is allowing these builds to deal way too much dmg for very little investment.

West93

Cinbri wrote: »

It is weird that OP used stamdens in thread name and not stamcro which is literally old, even more op version of stamden.

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Magcro is complete garbage now.
It is the only Magicka class that is worse than a Magicka warden.
That’s probably why I rarely see any.

Yes, magcro not that strong but it weird that you compare it to strongest magicka pvp spec. Magdens ahead of other magicka specs, inluding sorcs, as much as stamcro and stamden ahead of other stam specs. Obviously every single magicka class will be below magdens.
Idk how on NA but on EU majority of "small-scalers" who play wardens or stamcros are only playing it coz it overperforming, i.e. in language of eso "fun to play". And they have no problem admit it.

techyeshic wrote: »

Talking no CP though? More about procs than class right now IMO.

And sadly thats how it is and for that reason noCP is no longer as healthy as it was during release in Morrowind. Thats problem of zos trying to balance pvp around CP and noCP which is turned as disastrous fail in the end.
Hopefully at least this problem zos will fix (will they..) next year with redesign of CP System, so CP will be in perfect spot and zos can easily delete noCP pvp and than start properly treat balance around singular system.
Even tho i didnt played CP pvp since Morrowind - jumping in CP IC was much funnier than noCP due to zos was addressing its issue (which in meantime made noCP balance much worse). Only problem I noticed is that comparable class balance on CP is blended strongly due to how CP cover weak spots and thus lowering "skill floor". One one hand it nice to have system where all classes are somehow near but on other hand it masking problem of how classes perfrom byitself without additional boosts and covered weaknesses by CP. And thats might turn into gigantic problem next year when zos will address CP system. On noCP class disbalance is very visible when procsets are not involved.

Why? No cp is trash and unfair for a templar. I dropped playing no cp since morrowind and never looked back there. Best decision I made.

Firstmep

West93 wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

It is weird that OP used stamdens in thread name and not stamcro which is literally old, even more op version of stamden.

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Magcro is complete garbage now.
It is the only Magicka class that is worse than a Magicka warden.
That’s probably why I rarely see any.

Yes, magcro not that strong but it weird that you compare it to strongest magicka pvp spec. Magdens ahead of other magicka specs, inluding sorcs, as much as stamcro and stamden ahead of other stam specs. Obviously every single magicka class will be below magdens.
Idk how on NA but on EU majority of "small-scalers" who play wardens or stamcros are only playing it coz it overperforming, i.e. in language of eso "fun to play". And they have no problem admit it.

techyeshic wrote: »

Talking no CP though? More about procs than class right now IMO.

And sadly thats how it is and for that reason noCP is no longer as healthy as it was during release in Morrowind. Thats problem of zos trying to balance pvp around CP and noCP which is turned as disastrous fail in the end.
Hopefully at least this problem zos will fix (will they..) next year with redesign of CP System, so CP will be in perfect spot and zos can easily delete noCP pvp and than start properly treat balance around singular system.
Even tho i didnt played CP pvp since Morrowind - jumping in CP IC was much funnier than noCP due to zos was addressing its issue (which in meantime made noCP balance much worse). Only problem I noticed is that comparable class balance on CP is blended strongly due to how CP cover weak spots and thus lowering "skill floor". One one hand it nice to have system where all classes are somehow near but on other hand it masking problem of how classes perfrom byitself without additional boosts and covered weaknesses by CP. And thats might turn into gigantic problem next year when zos will address CP system. On noCP class disbalance is very visible when procsets are not involved.

Why? No cp is trash and unfair for a templar. I dropped playing no cp since morrowind and never looked back there. Best decision I made.

I have said this before : no cp really exposes classes relative strength to each other, as you cant shore up your weaknesses that easily.
Templar probably has one of the biggest differences in power between cp and no cp, since in cp you can invest a lot into healing, have higher stats in general so you won't be as squishy.
Hopefully after the latest round of nerfs we will see some reworks to useless skills and passives.

West93

Firstmep wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

It is weird that OP used stamdens in thread name and not stamcro which is literally old, even more op version of stamden.

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Magcro is complete garbage now.
It is the only Magicka class that is worse than a Magicka warden.
That’s probably why I rarely see any.

Yes, magcro not that strong but it weird that you compare it to strongest magicka pvp spec. Magdens ahead of other magicka specs, inluding sorcs, as much as stamcro and stamden ahead of other stam specs. Obviously every single magicka class will be below magdens.
Idk how on NA but on EU majority of "small-scalers" who play wardens or stamcros are only playing it coz it overperforming, i.e. in language of eso "fun to play". And they have no problem admit it.

techyeshic wrote: »

Talking no CP though? More about procs than class right now IMO.

And sadly thats how it is and for that reason noCP is no longer as healthy as it was during release in Morrowind. Thats problem of zos trying to balance pvp around CP and noCP which is turned as disastrous fail in the end.
Hopefully at least this problem zos will fix (will they..) next year with redesign of CP System, so CP will be in perfect spot and zos can easily delete noCP pvp and than start properly treat balance around singular system.
Even tho i didnt played CP pvp since Morrowind - jumping in CP IC was much funnier than noCP due to zos was addressing its issue (which in meantime made noCP balance much worse). Only problem I noticed is that comparable class balance on CP is blended strongly due to how CP cover weak spots and thus lowering "skill floor". One one hand it nice to have system where all classes are somehow near but on other hand it masking problem of how classes perfrom byitself without additional boosts and covered weaknesses by CP. And thats might turn into gigantic problem next year when zos will address CP system. On noCP class disbalance is very visible when procsets are not involved.

Why? No cp is trash and unfair for a templar. I dropped playing no cp since morrowind and never looked back there. Best decision I made.

I have said this before : no cp really exposes classes relative strength to each other, as you cant shore up your weaknesses that easily.
Templar probably has one of the biggest differences in power between cp and no cp, since in cp you can invest a lot into healing, have higher stats in general so you won't be as squishy.
Hopefully after the latest round of nerfs we will see some reworks to useless skills and passives.

Templars only getting nerfed further it will never have passives close to like necromancer or warden.

techyeshic

You basically play templar for jabs. If you have to go dizzy swing, why bother when you can purge as warden or necro, have either AOE major defile or major fracture you dont have on Templar (unless you try using caltrops and good luck), along with having either the best ranged defense or superior all around mitigation. You lose the healing of ER but gain major mending.

West93

techyeshic wrote: »

You basically play templar for jabs. If you have to go dizzy swing, why bother when you can purge as warden or necro, have either AOE major defile or major fracture you dont have on Templar (unless you try using caltrops and good luck), along with having either the best ranged defense or superior all around mitigation. You lose the healing of ER but gain major mending.

actually you can gain major fracture with ransack and 99% stamplars using sword and board anyway, however that's true you only have jabs, other skills and passives are undertuned and overnerfed.

techyeshic

West93 wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

You basically play templar for jabs. If you have to go dizzy swing, why bother when you can purge as warden or necro, have either AOE major defile or major fracture you dont have on Templar (unless you try using caltrops and good luck), along with having either the best ranged defense or superior all around mitigation. You lose the healing of ER but gain major mending.

actually you can gain major fracture with ransack and 99% stamplars using sword and board anyway, however that's true you only have jabs, other skills and passives are undertuned and overnerfed.

Poking with ransack feels like just that compared to shalks laying down AOE major fracture though.

Also have a very predictable, projected, single target delayed burst compared to the AOE homing device or the under ground sub that you have to see it on your opponent's feet. And at every 6 seconds opposed to 3.

Not to turn this into a templar whine thread. Just some things I realized when playing good opponents and fighting other templars coming jabbing at me. Its gotten to be where it looks like this:



EDIT: Man getting a good image link is painful these days lol

West93

techyeshic wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

You basically play templar for jabs. If you have to go dizzy swing, why bother when you can purge as warden or necro, have either AOE major defile or major fracture you dont have on Templar (unless you try using caltrops and good luck), along with having either the best ranged defense or superior all around mitigation. You lose the healing of ER but gain major mending.

actually you can gain major fracture with ransack and 99% stamplars using sword and board anyway, however that's true you only have jabs, other skills and passives are undertuned and overnerfed.

Poking with ransack feels like just that compared to shalks laying down AOE major fracture though.

Also have a very predictable, projected, single target delayed burst compared to the AOE homing device or the under ground sub that you have to see it on your opponent's feet. And at every 6 seconds opposed to 3.

Not to turn this into a templar whine thread. Just some things I realized when playing good opponents and fighting other templars coming jabbing at me. Its gotten to be where it looks like this:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/mcu-bushmaster-replaces-harry-in-the-mansion-fight-scene-from-spider-man-3.726631/&psig=AOvVaw09JJx2zRvsfWJgw0mMAA_6&ust=1600259170714000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCLCm9YaU6-sCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAY

ransack costs nothing and gives you 15 sec of major fracture, apply cc -> ransack -> jab, I cringe at stamplar still not trying ransack

pauld1_ESO

Cinbri wrote: »

It is weird that OP used stamdens in thread name and not stamcro which is literally old, even more op version of stamden.

Because right now all I see is solo randoms running around with a green netch in tow more than anything except Nightblades. Only difference is you don't need to worry about not being seen as a Stamden.

My post was for balance in general, these large health-pool tanky builds that can still do high dps are not balanced, period. The more health you have the less damage you should do. That has been the key to balance since MMO PvP became a thing.

Canned_Apples

I haven’t played magden in a while, so things probably changed. I also stay far away from cp. 40 minute fights and having to change my cp from pve (tank) to pvp is not fun.
I remember when people used master’s lighting to make them viable.

pauld1_ESO

Canned_Apples wrote: »

@pauld1_ESO if you want to beat them, roll one. We’re currently in the malacath meta, and wardens+magDKs benefits the most from running eternal + malacath + 2 proc sets/brp bow + master dw. Unfortunately, it’ll probably stay this way until new p2w items are introduced.

I never thought I’d miss the previous combat devs. I doubt things would’ve ever gotten this bad again with them.

I can’t even bring myself to do the dailies.

I have a Stamden, I am not fond of the feel honestly, and even tyring it out casually I still took out an entire team solo in a relic BG lol. It was stupid easy, and I consider myself pretty average.

I know when I am simply being outplayed by a pro and when it is all build cheese, while some play Stamden much better than others, an average player can wreck *** with this Stamden meta.

erio

haha malacath go skrrrt

katorga

Warden can stack a huge amount of %damage increases in addition to Malacath. So they are the best class to leverage that mythic to its fullest. They have a decent health based heal, so they can leverage high health/proc builds better than most. It is likely the class best suited to to thrive in this meta.

If I add it up right, minor vulnerability 8%, minor berserk 8%, at least 3 animal skills on the bar for 2% each. Plus Malacath is over 45% increased damage in nocp. In cp close to 80%.

pauld1_ESO

I don't care what the class is, you shouldn't be running around no cp with 30k+ health bursting like a NB and sustain along with it.

Canned_Apples

katorga wrote: »

If I add it up right, minor vulnerability 8%, minor berserk 8%, at least 3 animal skills on the bar for 2% each. Plus Malacath is over 45% increased damage in nocp. In cp close to 80%.

I don't think that's how multipliers are calculated...
Still broken though.

EtTuBrutus

West93 wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

You basically play templar for jabs. If you have to go dizzy swing, why bother when you can purge as warden or necro, have either AOE major defile or major fracture you dont have on Templar (unless you try using caltrops and good luck), along with having either the best ranged defense or superior all around mitigation. You lose the healing of ER but gain major mending.

actually you can gain major fracture with ransack and 99% stamplars using sword and board anyway, however that's true you only have jabs, other skills and passives are undertuned and overnerfed.

Poking with ransack feels like just that compared to shalks laying down AOE major fracture though.

Also have a very predictable, projected, single target delayed burst compared to the AOE homing device or the under ground sub that you have to see it on your opponent's feet. And at every 6 seconds opposed to 3.

Not to turn this into a templar whine thread. Just some things I realized when playing good opponents and fighting other templars coming jabbing at me. Its gotten to be where it looks like this:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/mcu-bushmaster-replaces-harry-in-the-mansion-fight-scene-from-spider-man-3.726631/&psig=AOvVaw09JJx2zRvsfWJgw0mMAA_6&ust=1600259170714000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCLCm9YaU6-sCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAY

ransack costs nothing and gives you 15 sec of major fracture, apply cc -> ransack -> jab, I cringe at stamplar still not trying ransack

That's an awful order for those skills. Why would you ever cc to land ransack. You shouldn't.

JayKwellen

I've played a stamden in PvP and I'd honestly say they have a pretty high skill floor. They're definitely an easy class to play and find success with.

And why wouldn't they be? The thing about stamdens is just that they have pretty much everything in their kit at their disposal.

They have a good class burst heal, a decent stamina group heal, a decent HoT that also applies lifesteal, a cheap ulti heal, plus what is basically a version of siphoning strikes that also gives major savagery. They get free minor toughness with basically 100% uptime, passive increase to healing percent, and free major mending.

They get 24 seconds of major resolve with 24 seconds of minor protection attached to it. They get a shield which renders them temporarily immune to projectiles while giving them major heroism. They get 500 free physical and spell resistance for every frost ability slotted. They also have access to major protection through their ultimate.

They have major fracture attached to their delayed burst ability. Minor vulnerability attached to their DOT. Free major brutality attached to their free purge + stamina recovery. Minor berserk attached to their major expedition. And passives which offer a 12% buff to their magicka and stamina recovery, 2% up to 10% flat damage increase, 1260 heal, and ultimate generation.

So here you have class in which most PvP builds will have easy access to: Minor toughness, major mending, major resolve, minor protection, minor berserk, minor vulnerability, major savagery (admittedly this one usually comes from elsewhere, not many people run green lotus) and major expedition -- all while their class skills give them access to almost everything they need skill wise. In PvP good stamdens are absolutely monsterous, and again, why wouldn't they be? They pretty much lack for nothing. The only thing they don't have is a burst ultimate, but dawnbreaker and onslaught take care of that.

I don't think they should be nerfed though, they should really be more of a benchmark, for PvP at least. All the rest of us on classes with barren and underwhelming skills which leave us with kits that end up being completely devoid of necessary mechanics, buffs, and abilities, should be adjusted upwards to a similar level of completeness as the stamden.