Templar tanks exists

Tobironic

Can you ZOS please throw templar tanks a bone or two.A HP based heal would go a long way. Every class has it so I cannot for the life of me understand why templar doesn't. If your plan is for templar to be a "shield" tank then you need to make an exception on radiant shield to be used after block mitigation.

White wabbit

sandelius wrote: »

Can you ZOS please throw templar tanks a bone or two.A HP based heal would go a long way. Every class has it so I cannot for the life of me understand why templar doesn't. If your plan is for templar to be a "shield" tank then you need to make an exception on radiant shield to be used after block mitigation.

Yep ranked on everything but just couldn’t make the Templar work

Taleof2Cities

“Buff my class” threads should really be in Combat & Character Mechanics section, @sandelius.

PTS is for testing, evaluation, and feedback on actual changes proposed by ZOS in an upcoming patch.

sandelius wrote: »

Every class has it so I cannot for the life of me understand why templar doesn't.

That’s really not a good reason to add a health heal. We shouldn’t be promoting homogenization by making every class the same.

Koubo

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

“Buff my class” threads should really be in Combat & Character Mechanics section, @sandelius.

PTS is for testing, evaluation, and feedback on actual changes proposed by ZOS in an upcoming patch.

sandelius wrote: »

Every class has it so I cannot for the life of me understand why templar doesn't.

That’s really not a good reason to add a health heal. We shouldn’t be promoting homogenization by making every class the same.

You again :')
I agree about class identity and variety but actually there is a HUGE problem with Templars (in all spec) health survivability. Probably one of the worse out there and it's mostly because there is no heal scale on HP. For the holy class of the game, it's kinda funny to be the lower at self sustain. (and many post i've been made in Classe combat.)

Sanguinor2

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

That’s really not a good reason to add a health heal. We shouldn’t be promoting homogenization by making every class the same.

There is a difference between homogenization and having the tools necessary to succeed at all roles as all classes are supposed to. Just as all classes have major resolve for example or some kind of heal (self heal or otherwise) classes need a %health based heal to succeed as tank in harder content.

The thing is, unlike all other classes, a templar tank cant survive hard content on its own. When a tank gets hit hard they can usually just heal right back up.
Dk used GDB (or igneous+GDB).
Sorc uses clanfear.
Warden the frost heal.
Necro the scythe.
NB the heal morph of cloak.
All a templar can do is: pray for enough corpses to repent or alternatively spam sun shield and pray. Needless to say neither of those work particulary well (or at all really) in the portal in vCR for example.

What I am more cautious about is the impact such a heal could have on templar performance in PvP (and I say this as a templar main) but there is no reason from a pve standpoint to not have such a heal in the templar toolkit.

Koubo

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

That’s really not a good reason to add a health heal. We shouldn’t be promoting homogenization by making every class the same.

There is a difference between homogenization and having the tools necessary to succeed at all roles as all classes are supposed to. Just as all classes have major resolve for example or some kind of heal (self heal or otherwise) classes need a %health based heal to succeed as tank in harder content.

The thing is, unlike all other classes, a templar tank cant survive hard content on its own. When a tank gets hit hard they can usually just heal right back up.
Dk used GDB (or igneous+GDB).
Sorc uses clanfear.
Warden the frost heal.
Necro the scythe.
NB the heal morph of cloak.
All a templar can do is: pray for enough corpses to repent or alternatively spam sun shield and pray. Needless to say neither of those work particulary well (or at all really) in the portal in vCR for example.

What I am more cautious about is the impact such a heal could have on templar performance in PvP (and I say this as a templar main) but there is no reason from a pve standpoint to not have such a heal in the templar toolkit.

Well, that's also what Templar in PvP need. Stamplar rely on Rally and Vigor to survive in PvP and we know they arent strong. Vigor is good for PvE, but the heal reduction in PvP make it not enough. Rally need to stay a long time on you to get full effect. MagPlar are in a little bit better spot with Sweep. But not by much. ER can help both, but it's one tick every 2 sec and it's a AoE heal, which mean it's not as strong as a self heal. And that's why they are in a bad state right now. Even in PvE, Templars could use better heal sustains. (Especially Stamplar) I agree on your first point tho

honey_badger82

I main a Imperial Stamplar tank. I have completed veteran DLC dungeons tanking with him. It works for me but because of how much thought I had to place in the build and yes as OP stated I have 0 big insta heals since it is also a DPS back bar so no room for vigor.
In 5 medium pieces of armor I get 31k resistances when blocking due to Grave Guardian set so usually spamming radiant ward while standing in Ext. Ritual, Restoring focus and Turn Evil AoEs and blocking hoping I can hold till Rally pops is the only option I have for a large self heal.
Should I have enough ultimate built up I can pop Reviving Barrier but I try and save that for when it benefits the whole group.
It is a super fun build and the closest I think to a Paladin the game offers (protects group members with shields and armor buff and war horn buffs when I slot it, can hold the enemy, turn evil and when on BB can dish out decent damage).
With that said I don't do trials with it, would be a handicap to my team for sure and I only do vet DLC content with guildmates who know what I am running. There are so many elitist out there that are expecting a DK tank so they can be given Major Sorcery and Brutality because they dont want to add it to their build as it weakens their dps output typically.
In my opinion giving stamplars a some sort of group buff like that would go a long way towards making them more viable in trial content. Synergies don't count as all classes provide these.

tmbrinks

I've converted my templar healer main into a tank for 4-man content (because that's what our group needed)

I have gotten 8 of the 14 trifecta (no-death, hard mode, speedrun) achievements done as a templar tank. So it's certainly viable. This includes the two most recent dungeons that came out with Stonethorn (which are arguably the more difficult of those achievements, as the dungeons tend to get either nerfed with time, or because of power creep they get easier)

Yes, I occasionally need a little extra focus from the healer because of that lack of a health-based heal, but it can certainly be done

Aznarb

Yup, my Tankplar would love a real heal. For now I use vigor and plan to try with adding Earthgore.
Work fine for all 4 man HM content and some raid but would probably not in harder vTrial.

I've change it to double frost staff, work fine and it's ton of fun
I play enough meta set/build on my heal, my Tankplar is for fun !

Hotdog_23

tmbrinks wrote: »

I've converted my templar healer main into a tank for 4-man content (because that's what our group needed)

I have gotten 8 of the 14 trifecta (no-death, hard mode, speedrun) achievements done as a templar tank. So it's certainly viable. This includes the two most recent dungeons that came out with Stonethorn (which are arguably the more difficult of those achievements, as the dungeons tend to get either nerfed with time, or because of power creep they get easier)

Yes, I occasionally need a little extra focus from the healer because of that lack of a health-based heal, but it can certainly be done

A good group can help a lot in covering up short coming in a class. Sure it can be done with a experienced player with the right gear, time and group but a self heal would help compared to the other class.

NB, Socr and Necro don't have a health based heal but they both have incredible mitigation with some nice heals also. Not on level with DK or warden. ZOS could change one morph such as hasty prayer into a health based heal.

As far shielding goes templar is great for trash pulls but when really needed on A boss fight it comes up short.

Be safe and have fun.

FrancisCrawford

Aznarb wrote: »

Yup, my Tankplar would love a real heal. For now I use vigor and plan to try with adding Earthgore.
Work fine for all 4 man HM content and some raid but would probably not in harder vTrial.

I've change it to double frost staff, work fine and it's ton of fun
I play enough meta set/build on my heal, my Tankplar is for fun !

What levels do you run of heath/magicka/spell power, approximately?

tmbrinks

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

I've converted my templar healer main into a tank for 4-man content (because that's what our group needed)

I have gotten 8 of the 14 trifecta (no-death, hard mode, speedrun) achievements done as a templar tank. So it's certainly viable. This includes the two most recent dungeons that came out with Stonethorn (which are arguably the more difficult of those achievements, as the dungeons tend to get either nerfed with time, or because of power creep they get easier)

Yes, I occasionally need a little extra focus from the healer because of that lack of a health-based heal, but it can certainly be done

A good group can help a lot in covering up short coming in a class. Sure it can be done with a experienced player with the right gear, time and group but a self heal would help compared to the other class.

NB, Socr and Necro don't have a health based heal but they both have incredible mitigation with some nice heals also. Not on level with DK or warden. ZOS could change one morph such as hasty prayer into a health based heal.

As far shielding goes templar is great for trash pulls but when really needed on A boss fight it comes up short.

Be safe and have fun.

Oh yeah, it's a definite shortcoming, just as other classes have shortcomings as well.

One thing I love about templar tank though is the stamina return. In trash packs, I can pull things in with silver leash, and as they die, hit repentance, have full stam again in 1 GCD to pull in more adds and to be able to block. Whereas on my DK tank w/ chains, you pull in, then have to balance several times to get magicka back, using more GCDs.

I would agree that templars are probably the weakest of the tanking classes, and they probably don't get as much attention because groups will run them as they are good at heals or dps, so the group will already have one for the class-based buffs.

Sahidom

I thought most of the class heal skills scaled to HP and not entirely based on magic; Id have to double check that... maybe they can unify that with Update 30... for class skills since it makes sense for Resoration skills scale to magic. If so than your problem would solved.

Firstmep

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

I've converted my templar healer main into a tank for 4-man content (because that's what our group needed)

I have gotten 8 of the 14 trifecta (no-death, hard mode, speedrun) achievements done as a templar tank. So it's certainly viable. This includes the two most recent dungeons that came out with Stonethorn (which are arguably the more difficult of those achievements, as the dungeons tend to get either nerfed with time, or because of power creep they get easier)

Yes, I occasionally need a little extra focus from the healer because of that lack of a health-based heal, but it can certainly be done

A good group can help a lot in covering up short coming in a class. Sure it can be done with a experienced player with the right gear, time and group but a self heal would help compared to the other class.

NB, Socr and Necro don't have a health based heal but they both have incredible mitigation with some nice heals also. Not on level with DK or warden. ZOS could change one morph such as hasty prayer into a health based heal.

As far shielding goes templar is great for trash pulls but when really needed on A boss fight it comes up short.

Be safe and have fun.

Erm sorcs absolutely have a health base heal, and it has a pretty generous scaling, it just requires double barring clannfear, so it's not really an option for endgame tanking.

Sanguinor2

Firstmep wrote: »

Erm sorcs absolutely have a health base heal, and it has a pretty generous scaling, it just requires double barring clannfear, so it's not really an option for endgame tanking.

You can absolutely do a sorc tank in endgame with double barred clannfear. You just need bossfights where you can get dark deal off so you get the stam sustain and give minor prophecy in a reliable manner, aka no KA maintanking for you.

PureEnvelope35

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

A good group can help a lot in covering up short coming in a class. Sure it can be done with a experienced player with the right gear, time and group but a self heal would help compared to the other class.

NB, Socr and Necro don't have a health based heal but they both have incredible mitigation with some nice heals also. Not on level with DK or warden. ZOS could change one morph such as hasty prayer into a health based heal.

As far shielding goes templar is great for trash pulls but when really needed on A boss fight it comes up short.

Be safe and have fun.

NB: Dark Cloak
Sorc: Clannfear
Necro: Scythe

All 3 aforementioned classes do have HP based heals with good mitigation, albeit Necro Scythe isn't always the best one but templar is definitely the only class missing an HP based heal atm.

Ratzkifal

I feel that templar tanks have nothing to buff the group with that the templar healer or dps doesn't provide already. And if you go out of your way to have no templar healer or dps in the group just so the templar tank can use PotL and supply minor prophecy... you get damage loss because you don't have Engulfing Flames on your tank anymore.

The big issues with Templar tanks, at least the way I see it, are:

• Lack of group supporting abilities/passives exclusive to the tank role
• not enough flexibility with your slotted skills because you can't function without them
• too much overlap between your abilities

I can get by without a strong self heal because I use Deep Thoughts and Repentance for resource management and together with Sun Shield I can heal up even while under fire. In situations where I can't use either of those, Ritual of Rebirth got my back. But that leaves not many flex spots on my skill bar.

Here are my skills and how they are almost all essential:

Pierce Armor; Sun Shield; Silver Leash; Deep Thoughts; Repentance
Inner Rage; Restoring Focus; Extended Ritual; Unstable Wall; Ritual of Rebirth (flex)

I can't drop Pierce Armor or Inner Rage (duh), I can't drop Sun Shield because it's my strength, I can't drop Leash unless I'm fighting a single boss without adds, I can't drop Deep Thoughts because it substitutes for blocking should I ever run low on stam with no corpses to use Repentance on, I can't drop Repentance because it's the strongest heal I have and allows me to permablock as long as things are dying as well as boost my magicka recovery, I can't drop Restoring Focus because Major Resolve + much needed sustain, I can drop Extended Ritual but having a cleanse on demand on your tank useful aside from being part of the Templar's identity; I can't drop Unstable Wall because it provides Crusher uptime and my only flex spot is Ritual of Rebirth, which the only reliable burst heal I have and I still don't have minor heroism, minor maim or power of the light slotted!

For reference I looked up an up-to-date Alcast build for Templar tanks. He obviously is struggling with the same issues because he dropped Silver Leash (aka your pull!) for Heroic Slash and instead of Deep Thoughts for sustain he is using Spell Symmetry and had the other skills the same as me. There is still no room for Blood Altar, Orbs, PotL, Bone Surge or Time Stop for him either.

The issue isn't that Templar tanks aren't sturdy enough, it's that they are nothing beyond that, which leaves them in the dust compared to other classes' tanks.

Narvuntien

With the removal of the snare from Ice Staff, how am I supposed to hold down trash now as a Templar tank?

Also, my templar tank is basically indestructible but my DPS are getting swarmed by stuff and I can't really help them

VaxtinTheWolf

I just don't. I have Bow backbar and I use Sellestrix for the stun or off-heal through damage, provide bone shield no one really activates, and spam Repent if I happen to have it slotted. Really, what more can you do.

MellowMagic

Narvuntien wrote: »

With the removal of the snare from Ice Staff, how am I supposed to hold down trash now as a Templar tank?

Also, my templar tank is basically indestructible but my DPS are getting swarmed by stuff and I can't really help them

I use the ability: turn evil from the fighters guild skill line on my templar tank to cc enemies.

Synnastix

Use bloodlord mythic and frost staff - you can pretty much perma block if you need to reduce incoming.

Who am I kidding, templar main since beta but if I need to tank something I swap to a different class.

Apox

it kinda sucks but you can have some decent healing on templar with extended ritual and resolving vigor. i know its not ideal, and id like to see something like honor the dead be buffed up for temp tanks. maybe not %hp based but scale off max hp like other class heals, sorc clannfear for example.

ritual of ret is a magicka abilty and its damage scales off max stat which is why stamplars use it, no reason honor the dead cant be based off max hp. id prefer to see it since it'd allow for a quite efficient heal with themag recovery, though itd haveits own issues if it were to heal someone else at the wrong time. maybe change it to a self heal only?

karekiz

I think its just ironic that a class with an entire heal line has the worst tank self heal.

Solariken

I agree that Templar tanking kit is poop. Sun Shield is definitely the skill to buff to alleviate this. Both morphs are a little weak.

Iron_Blurr

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

“Buff my class” threads should really be in Combat & Character Mechanics section, @sandelius.

PTS is for testing, evaluation, and feedback on actual changes proposed by ZOS in an upcoming patch.

sandelius wrote: »

Every class has it so I cannot for the life of me understand why templar doesn't.

That’s really not a good reason to add a health heal. We shouldn’t be promoting homogenization by making every class the same.

Another person who has never tanked hard content on a Templar shooting down threads from players bringing issues to the attention of zos.

Iron_Blurr

tmbrinks wrote: »

I've converted my templar healer main into a tank for 4-man content (because that's what our group needed)

I have gotten 8 of the 14 trifecta (no-death, hard mode, speedrun) achievements done as a templar tank. So it's certainly viable. This includes the two most recent dungeons that came out with Stonethorn (which are arguably the more difficult of those achievements, as the dungeons tend to get either nerfed with time, or because of power creep they get easier)

Yes, I occasionally need a little extra focus from the healer because of that lack of a health-based heal, but it can certainly be done

Just because you CAN do something handicapped that doesn't mean you SHOULD.
I can type with no fingers if i really wanted to. I can tank on a templar without a health based heal if i really wanted to. But who wants to type without fingers or tank without a heal?
Saying something is viable/possible is not an argument against asking for a change or quality of life improvement.

Narvuntien

MellowMagic wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

With the removal of the snare from Ice Staff, how am I supposed to hold down trash now as a Templar tank?

Also, my templar tank is basically indestructible but my DPS are getting swarmed by stuff and I can't really help them

I use the ability: turn evil from the fighters guild skill line on my templar tank to cc enemies.

When I Hook in stuff with Silver Leash they become immune to CC so I need a "soft CC" like a Snare or an immobilise to hold them in place for the DPS to murder.

VaxtinTheWolf

I use the other morph that heals, instead of Turn Evil. I just try to get all the healing I could as a Stamina focused Templar Tank. Obviously not Trial worthy, not that I ever tried that, but Boosting Weapon Damage to increase Ritual and Echoing Vigor's healing even.

FirmamentOfStars

Buff sun shield into a usable state, but dont ask for a health based heal ability. Such healing skills are atm the bane of PvP and allows two classes to be much stronger than others (stamcro and stamden)..

VaxtinTheWolf

SavageChain wrote: »

Buff sun shield into a usable state, but dont ask for a health based heal ability. Such healing skills are atm the bane of PvP and allows two classes to be much stronger than others (stamcro and stamden)..

I thought of letting Honor The Dead scale from highest offensive resource, like Ritual does would at least give something better than nothing as far as in-class healing for stamina goes..

LashanW

Narvuntien wrote: »

MellowMagic wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

With the removal of the snare from Ice Staff, how am I supposed to hold down trash now as a Templar tank?

Also, my templar tank is basically indestructible but my DPS are getting swarmed by stuff and I can't really help them

I use the ability: turn evil from the fighters guild skill line on my templar tank to cc enemies.

When I Hook in stuff with Silver Leash they become immune to CC so I need a "soft CC" like a Snare or an immobilise to hold them in place for the DPS to murder.

Razor caltrops.