make Shade tp to need line of sight to cast

Sergykid

everything has a counter. Damage with healing, streak with gap closers, gap closers with gap closers, cloak or stealth with detect pots or aoe, aoes with movement, etc.

but Shade teleport from Nb does not have a counter. Make the teleport portion of this ability to be usable only if the caster has its Shade in his line of sight, thus opening the counter gap closer (or pulls if not cc immune) to be available. Right now u can tp up on a platform or behind a wall with whole safety.

i know the Undo ultimate is quite the same, but that's an ability available to anyone. And this is not entirely a counter to Shade tp because the Nb can just wait down 4 seconds before tping. Also to slot an ultimate just to counter a normal spell it's absurd.

"but what about people that use Undo as Shade tp", well this has small window cast opportunity (4 sec) and a special resource requirement to cast. And Undo is in the exception list because it's an ultimate, it's supposed to be something strong and decisive.

tsaescishoeshiner

That would defeat the point of the skill, and lead to even more bugs with a skill that is already unreliable at times. Have you ever tried to use it on your own nightblade? It takes a lot of practice and foreplanning, and already is limited by a short enough duration and range limit on the teleport.

A very skilled player can use it to escape/juke. That doesn't need counterplay IMO. It's not like a one-shot damage combo — those are usually the skills that get adjusted for lack of counterplay.

I've been frustrated by nightblades using this skill to outmaneuver me in IC, but I wouldn't want to see such a unique playstyle gone

VaxtinTheWolf

You just want the highest chance to bury any nightblade you find, huh? If you deleted this skill, what else would a nightblade have as their escape option? They general suck for healing through damage. Everyone can rolldodge, but eventually you'd run out of resources or get tripped by every AOE. Cloak is a joke unless you are already a fair distance away from the enemy.

Do you have any suggestions as alternatives if you were to butcher this ability?

SshadowSscale

You know what... While you ate at it lets give incap a 5 second longer cast time half the damage and double the ult cost. Make cloak multiply in cost with every cast and increase revealing abilities and pots area of detection by 5000 precent. Merciless can get its damage cut by 75 precent and it needs 5 more light attacks to proc and its travel time gets a 50 precent increase as well.Veiled strike can get its range reduced by 3 meters and if it stuns the target it cost 5 times more. Did I miss anything else that is worth while on a nightblade? If I did lets nerf it to..... But for real dude stop trying to kill nightblades.... Shade is ome of the few cool unique stuff left and cloak is already being countered by gapclose spam now you want shade to be countered by gapclosers too..... Just stop please

VaxtinTheWolf

Also, The counter to shade is splitting up the zerg to chase the Nightblade, and leave the other half harassing the shade's location so if the nightblade triggers it, there you all are waiting for them. And the counter to THAT, is for the Nightblade not to use the shade if they are situationally aware enough, and spawn a new one or just move on. the cycle continues.

Gilvoth

shade teleport is for escape and survival, if you remove that we die and would be no use for the shade at all.
and by the way there is no counter to many skills in eso like the streak on a sorcerer for example - it has no counter
and all the ultimates in every class - there is no counter for those as well. the list of skill that have no counter is quite long.

Sergykid

yeah i was pretty sure everyone is going to misinterpret what i wrote.
Nobody asked to delete the skill, and nobody said to nerf Nb. Buff their damage, range, heal, cast times, whatever, idc. But if we fight and i win, you simply vanishing behind the wall and being instantly safe without any chance for me to counter this, it's not fair. Playing a Nb instantly makes you god of 1v1?

read again; didn't say to delete or remove the teleport. Just make it in a way it can be countered, such as gap closers at the tp point in sight. Also the Nb can play it here, by moving the a point where he has sight but the enemy doesn't.
as Hircine says, it's not a hunt if the prey doesn't have the slightest chance of escape. Instead of 100% safe, make it 99% safe by being cautious where you use the tp from so u have sight and enemy not

Jierdanit

Sergykid wrote: »

yeah i was pretty sure everyone is going to misinterpret what i wrote.
Nobody asked to delete the skill, and nobody said to nerf Nb. Buff their damage, range, heal, cast times, whatever, idc. But if we fight and i win, you simply vanishing behind the wall and being instantly safe without any chance for me to counter this, it's not fair. Playing a Nb instantly makes you god of 1v1?

read again; didn't say to delete or remove the teleport. Just make it in a way it can be countered, such as gap closers at the tp point in sight. Also the Nb can play it here, by moving the a point where he has sight but the enemy doesn't.
as Hircine says, it's not a hunt if the prey doesn't have the slightest chance of escape. Instead of 100% safe, make it 99% safe by being cautious where you use the tp from so u have sight and enemy not

The problem is that it would be close to 0% safe against anyone who has a gap closer when you make it only work in sight of the person using it cuz they could nearly always just gap close after them.
Shade is one of the only mechanics a NB has to actually get out away from enemies because especcially if you have more than one against you there is nearly always something that breaks your cloak as soon as you cast it.

Shade is one of the skills that requires the most skill in the entire game because you have to place it before you actually know what is going to happen and have to play around it to make the teleport useful. There is really no need to nerf it.

and i think you just misinterpreted what the other ppl said because none of them seriously thought that you wanted to delete shade but just said that because your solution would pretty much have that effect.
Also regarding:

Sergykid wrote: »

and nobody said to nerf Nb

of course somebody said to nerf NB because what you propose is nothing else than a nerf to NB.

Zeromaz

I think it would be ok if they made the shade fear people who got close to it like the necro totem. If not, then NO

JayKwellen

Have you ever even played a nightblade in PvP? I find it hard to believe that anyone with any actual experience with the class would make such a class-breaking and otherwise absurdly myopic suggestion.

techyeshic

Im pretty bad at playing NB; I have not had any issues killing bad NBs but its annoying fighting super fast ones that know how to use shade...

But I still say "no" to this. We need more class identifying abilities, rather than less.

Firstmep

No.
Shade is one of the few skills in the game that rewards skillful gameplay, also with the change to spectral bow nbs aren't as tanky anymore.
Shade is fine as is.
You don't have to chase a nb spamming shade you know.

Paramundo

No. Shade with LOS would be a would be a crippled version of streak.

MashmalloMan

I don't play NB in pvp so I have 0 bias here, this skill's LOS has never once bothered me, NB's are usually squishy as hell, if they don't burst me down on their first attempt, they're usually dead so they need an escape tool that doesn't get bogged down by issues like LOS. There is other forms of counterplay to it.

The shade is on a limited timer, like Sombra from overwatch you need to place your shade, get in and get the hell out. It fits a ganking playstyle, which is exactly what the NB is suppose to be designed for. If they duke you off of a drop, I see that as you being outplayed. It doesn't make them invincible.

Slot a gap closer and an aoe dot, when they port, look around for them, charge them. How do they escape after that point? You will know exactly where they place the next shade and it's impossible to cloak if you have an aoe slotted in melee range.

So no thank you, lets stop messing with classes. I swear, every day there is another thread trying to kill another class skill. Leave it alone.

DUTCH_REAPER

I do not use shade but as a NB.

SO with that being said let me give my point of view as a magblade and stam blade user.

1. Blades are so ridiculously squishy it is unbelievable how fast they go down if you get on top of them. They ARE NOT tanky with high damage. they are either glass cannon gank or full tank and do nothiing in terms of damage
2. INCAP/Soul Harvest I have had more people dodge this skill than it hit. if a blade hits u with it send them 100k gold because they got lucky
3. Cloak....hahahaha cloak is so ...MUCH OF A MIGRAINE. Everything pulls you out. detect pots, AOE skill, Certain Poisons, CAMO hunter, Mage light. There are way too many counters to this skill. So either use one or dont complain about cloak peeps.
4. Blades have NO CLASS HEAL spammable. so...they either use a pot, a resto or vigor/rally. Its sad actually they have to crutch on only those choices.
5. Roll Dodge....mag aint doin this but stam is, the ONLY 3 ways to effectively utilize this is to either tower/rock hump, use a shade or sprint out with speed. Counters are quite easy all you have to do is use a unblockable hard CC, have some speed on your toon to catch them(use a skill RAT or a pot or wild hunt or swift jewelry)

specific counter to shade. look for it and now when they use it, its on a timer. I recommend playing blade (I main a MDK) and you start figuring out tricks you would use to evade and can counter that play better on non blade toons.

Sahidom

Shade does have a counter. Stand next to it. Pay attention when its dropped, you'll see the shadow dude before it disappears.

The counter is situational awareness versus button smash and not seeing where the NB dropped it.

Sergykid

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Slot a gap closer and an aoe dot, when they port, look around for them, charge them. How do they escape after that point? You will know exactly where they place the next shade and it's impossible to cloak if you have an aoe slotted in melee range.

how can i use a gap closer if he teleports above a platform or behind a wall? even if i go up on platform or around a wall, he will just have his next Shade prepared and repeat the action

Sergykid

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

I do not use shade but as a NB.

SO with that being said let me give my point of view as a magblade and stam blade user.

1. Blades are so ridiculously squishy it is unbelievable how fast they go down if you get on top of them. They ARE NOT tanky with high damage. they are either glass cannon gank or full tank and do nothiing in terms of damage
2. INCAP/Soul Harvest I have had more people dodge this skill than it hit. if a blade hits u with it send them 100k gold because they got lucky
3. Cloak....hahahaha cloak is so ...MUCH OF A MIGRAINE. Everything pulls you out. detect pots, AOE skill, Certain Poisons, CAMO hunter, Mage light. There are way too many counters to this skill. So either use one or dont complain about cloak peeps.
4. Blades have NO CLASS HEAL spammable. so...they either use a pot, a resto or vigor/rally. Its sad actually they have to crutch on only those choices.
5. Roll Dodge....mag aint doin this but stam is, the ONLY 3 ways to effectively utilize this is to either tower/rock hump, use a shade or sprint out with speed. Counters are quite easy all you have to do is use a unblockable hard CC, have some speed on your toon to catch them(use a skill RAT or a pot or wild hunt or swift jewelry)

specific counter to shade. look for it and now when they use it, its on a timer. I recommend playing blade (I main a MDK) and you start figuring out tricks you would use to evade and can counter that play better on non blade toons.

1) doesn't matter how squishy you are since you cannot be hit at all. And plenty of options to be a NB with plenty of healing together with damage, build correctly.
2) so?
3) all u listed are not slotted by anyone. Not everyone builds up and sets his consumables and spells with NB detection in mind. Even if so, i already have to use something specific to counter it, which means the stealth is a problem to me so i must prepare for it.
4) aside of BoL from templar and Matr from sorc who else has reliable spammable heal? spammable heals are not the best anyway in most cases. Everyone uses timed heals from pot/resto/vigor/rally/class. NB has Dark Cloak morph, the dot from Strife, Drain Power, Refreshing Path (not widely used but still a heal), Major buffs from different spells, and the best healing ultimate in the game.
5) teleport is better than any possible movement, also everyone is advantaged by movement not just your enemy
1-5) what has this to do with the discussion?

so what if it has a timer? it's enough timer to just jump down and reteleport up. It's not like 4 seconds from Undo. 18 seconds timer to teleport is massive for the length of a combat.

Sergykid

Sahidom wrote: »

Shade does have a counter. Stand next to it. Pay attention when its dropped, you'll see the shadow dude before it disappears.

The counter is situational awareness versus button smash and not seeing where the NB dropped it.

we start the fight, you gank me from stealth, i survive and i turn on you, i almost kill you, you teleport back above on the platform or behind a wall. What can i do? what's the counter?

stand next to it? sure. You have the shade up, jump down to attack me. You teleport back up, i come up to you? ok, you jump down again, i stand near your shade upstairs. Now what? you are down, i either jump to you and you come up to teleport again. I either let you go and ignore you, which will give you the opportunity to gank me and repeat the already mentioned process, or i just chase you endlessly?

Shade teleport has no counter and the only option is either useless chase, either let you go, which also makes the Nb the winner here. It's not fair for the Nb to be the god of 1v1.

deviousthevile

Being aware of your surroundings it the best counter for Shadow Image. I can't count how many times my group is struggling with an image user, chasing and chasing. If people would stop for a second and realize that you need to leave someone at the image, the place the NC with TP back to, to kill them when they teleport back to the shade. It's the easiest counterplay there is.

Sergykid

deviousthevile wrote: »

Being aware of your surroundings it the best counter for Shadow Image. I can't count how many times my group is struggling with an image user, chasing and chasing. If people would stop for a second and realize that you need to leave someone at the image, the place the NC with TP back to, to kill them when they teleport back to the shade. It's the easiest counterplay there is.

aka only with at least two people you can take one Nb Shade tp user. How can you be "aware" of your surroundings? even if you stay in my face, you teleport behind a wall or above a platform. What is there for me to be "aware" of? run to an open field with no line of sight blocks? the Nb won't follow me, meaning he wins since he will be safe.

Sahidom

Sergykid wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

Shade does have a counter. Stand next to it. Pay attention when its dropped, you'll see the shadow dude before it disappears.

The counter is situational awareness versus button smash and not seeing where the NB dropped it.

Shade teleport has no counter and the only option is either useless chase, either let you go, which also makes the Nb the winner here. It's not fair for the Nb to be the god of 1v1.

I can respect your frustration. However, NB are far from God's of 1v1 when your facing off. The class has lost much of its identity, as other classes and non-class skills mirror the NB; There are paid to own classes that significantly out perform NBs, and other classes in an open fight. The fast pace repositioning and quickly vanishing from sight are the classes sole, and primary defense skills. The shadow passives help but thats it, no strong heal or active buff to resistances. All glass cannon to the core, and that's fine AS LONG AS you continue to support their fast pace evasive skills; otherwise, their a very fragile class in open combat.

You can hear an invisible NB recast cloak,
You can hear an invisible or stealth proximity bomb coming,
You can use several means to counter cloak,
You can use situational awareness to reduce how effective their shade is,

The list could continue on the counters to NB setups and playstyles. When players don't want to adapt their builds for counter options then its unreasonable to lobby for a nerf change to a class that's still black n blue from years of the ZOS nerf bat...

Sergykid

i don't have a problem with Cloak, i understand there are counters for it, even if you specifically have to slot something in order for it. But with Shade, even if slotting or not something, i cannot do anything against it. You can simply juke up on a platform or side behind a wall, forever. It's either you win or draw, you can't lose. Only by being bursted down, but that doesn't happen as you can just teleport the instant you break free (i don't talk about inexperienced NBs that fall victims to this, i speak about the possibility of it and how it doesn't have a counter to the process)

Zeromaz

Consider it a break for you to rebuff and heal up.

DUTCH_REAPER

I see your argument about if you are close to a keep and they come off the wall then port back up....just get further away from the wall and the NB either won’t engage or will and be to far to use shade.

Langeston

No. Shade is fine as it is.

Try playing a magblade for a while and I guarantee that your perspective on the class in general, and Shade specifically, will change once you have to make do without the tankiness & healing that you're used to on your current class.

kalunte

poorly thought OP. the point of the shade is to go out of sight. the minor maim is neglectable on this skill, so are the dmg it does.

if it was just to create a gap it would be a dead skill, i mean 2GCD + 4k magika for 1/5 effect of a streak? with limited range?

not every skill have a counter. you talked about revealing skills and pots, well, all counters have a cooldown but this one to cloak (cc immunity after breakfree or pots, root immunity after dodgeroll, but still can be revealed over and over forever, no peace allowed).

asking for a defensive skill nerf these days is awkward.

Sergykid

again, not surprising, all this forum people have in their minds is nerfing.

increase its range, increase its damage, increase its timer (like 18 seconds are not enough anyway, lol).
i don't care how strong or weak the spell is. It must have a counter. It is not fair play if a player can do something that the opposing player can not counter.
Currently how Shade teleportation work makes the NB never the loser. It's either a draw or the NB wins. The NB controls the fight entirely, being at his instant moment of choice the reset of the fight.

deviousthevile

Sergykid wrote: »

aka only with at least two people you can take one Nb Shade tp user. How can you be "aware" of your surroundings? even if you stay in my face, you teleport behind a wall or above a platform. What is there for me to be "aware" of? run to an open field with no line of sight blocks? the Nb won't follow me, meaning he wins since he will be safe.

Being aware when they drop a shadow image as you are chasing the NB around. I notice things like that when I'm hunting a NB, so I assumed more people did. No need to get feisty, just stating how I deal with your situation. And if I am chasing one solo, I will drop a stun like a fear totem or something to stun them to give me time to get back to where they TP. Sorry I can't give you an EASY button for this one, but I promise, it is doable! Best of luck and happy hunting!

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

After removing a couple of posts, we would just like to remind everyone to keep all posts civil, constructive, and within the guidelines of the rules. If there may be any questions in regards to said rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

itscompton

Langeston wrote: »

No. Shade is fine as it is.

Try playing a magblade for a while and I guarantee that your perspective on the class in general, and Shade specifically, will change once you have to make do without the tankiness & healing that you're used to on your current class.

I just got done leveling a Mag Blade and that damage it does is awesome but to get it there I went heavy on SD (5500 fully buffed) and at only 36K max mag shields are worthless on the build. Using Siphoning Attacks for weaving light attacks with Swallow Soul keeps me alive if I can spam them but anyone that can manage to stun me and hit me with any type of ult combo is instant death almost every time.
The shade can allow you to do some cool stuff like get back inside a keep or up on a wall. But it only last 20 seconds max and the range feels very small if you're trying to use it in a typical fight that moves around quickly. Not to mention if you do place it somewhere out of line of sight like behind or on top of a wall you're most likely giving up the Shade applying minor maim to your opponent and a Mag NB needs all the damage reduction they can get.
Someone could only troll you with the Shade if you are actively participating in the trolling. Just move on.