Is there a reason why DW tree is lackluster for PVP? @DEVELOPERS

cheesefome

Ive switched between both 2H and Dw like a kid who cant decide which of his 2 favorite toys to play with and always end up goibg to DW. Feels less clunky, feel like even the response and animations of skills are tweaked to function smoother.

What i cant seem to understand is why 2H skill tree is not slightly better than DW but Far a superior tree for PvP. Rally by itself is arguably the best skill in the game, you get the most BANG for our buck. They have a great gap closer, their ultimate is perfect. You get a fantastic aoe from autos. Meanwhile, DW has some of the most useless skills. They are so bad that people go into duel wield set ups and dont even use any of the skills from the dual wield skill tree. If that isnt proof that the skill tree is useless then idk what is. The problem is there are better skills in other tree lines than the ones in DW. That shouldnt be the case.

Would love to see rework for some of the skills, cause as of today, there is no incentive to use the skills in DW. Not while othere skills do the exact same thing but better

xshatox

For general purpose pvp yes, better use 2 handed. Althought I see lots of ball group use it for rending slashes to prevent mob from running and spam whirling blade. ALL 2 handed skill is great for pvp. I agree dual wield skill really need some kind of buff but not to the level where people use it to spam steel tornade in pvp long time ago.

cheesefome

xshatox wrote: »

For general purpose pvp yes, better use 2 handed. Althought I see lots of ball group use it for rending slashes to prevent mob from running and spam whirling blade. ALL 2 handed skill is great for pvp. I agree dual wield skill really need some kind of buff but not to the level where people use it to spam steel tornade in pvp long time ago.

Whirlibg blade is fine where it is, rest the skills require some tweeking or reworking

cheesefome

Surprised more people arent inclined to suggest buffs. Guess its because most people donr visit forums. All the activity is on reddit

relentless_turnip

I think momentum moved to a universal line would be a start👍 fighters guild or something...

Whirling blades is great, rapid strikes is great and so is blood craze. Blade cloak is great because it will activate your glyphs from your back bar without any effort and is great if your building a dot or pressure focused build. There is a lot that is good about dw and is unique enough to make it a viable alternative.

That said it needs tweeks to make it competitive with 2h. Hidden blade needs a complete rework to be less clunky. Maybe simply say it knocks opponent off balance and if repeated stuns(like dizzy, but less damage, higher cost) and the other morph can cause extra damage to your dw attacks. Or something like that...

Dalsinthus

Moving momentum to a universal line would be amazing. We would need to build a new skill to replace it for 2 h, but this would open up a lot of build possibilities.

Sahidom

The DW tree favors PVE as one source for layering damage. Since they've changed DOT mechanics, it lost value when targets can heal through the DOT ticks with some CP investment and resistances. As CP are not allocated differently for initial damage since then.

The main difference between the skills are the skills themselves e.g. leans towarss high initial hits with PVP added CC/defense components to the skills. This is not shared the same in DW, as its focus is layering damage for PVE, but not all the skills are used, same with 2H.

Bloodthirsty, Whirling Blades, Blood Craze are solid skills for DW; Blade Cloak and Hidden Blades are weaker due to their own cost and effect. Although BRP DW set favored Quick Cloak; that skill became less valuable when they changed the BRP DW set.

Hidden Blade is a nifty range attack skill but its not as good as Cleave. The skill needs help. Maybe to increase targets hit by the damage jump, upto 6 targets, and each jump increases the damage by +5% (+30% last target hit) and off-balances the targets. I'd improve the "cleave" aspect of the skill where its a smart target AOE skill that would be good versus large groups both in PVP and Trials.

mav1234

Hidden blade is a terrible ability that needs an overhaul.

2h is very strong, but DW can be good, especially in small (or large, I suppose) group pvp.

SpiritofESO

IAmIcehouse

DW can be fine in no-cp. But I feel you almost must run masters.

In CP, I'm not sure why you'd choose DW over 2h.

El_Borracho

Ahh, I remember when "Spin to win" was a thing. The good ole days...

Canned_Apples

cheesefome wrote: »

Surprised more people arent inclined to suggest buffs. Guess its because most people donr visit forums. All the activity is on reddit

That’s because we know better.
This isn’t a democracy.
Zos doesn’t bother with feedback.

If you want to DW, you have to go sorcerer, and you have to use draugrkin and p2w malacath.
Master’s is okay for back bar, but that’s not what you’re after.

rrimöykk

Would love if they buffed dw for pvp and 2h for pve.

PandaPalace

2h will always be far ahead of dw bc stam classes don't get stam cc/heals. 2h has a high dmg spam with a cc on it and snare, 3 in 1 skill.

Ratzkifal

If ZOS hadn't last-minute nerfed the changes to Master's dualwield with TwinSlashes in Greymoor, dualwield would have been a viable alternative to 2h in PvP. But they decided that a skill that deals damage over time as well as heals/slows shouldn't also deal enough instant damage to be a spammable, even though Rapid Strikes is too wonky with its targetting to be considered a proper DW spammable in PvP.

dinokstrunz

I feel like DW damage in both PvE and PvP is fine but there's two skills I defo feel that ZoS need to look into.

1. Hidden Blade - I remember Shrouded dagger was actually pretty good all the way back in Morrowind and early Summerset. Now both skills are awful, low damage, expensive and overall not worth using. Flying blade reskin to just wonky and doesn't feel right and oddly you only receive the Major Brutality buff when the gap closer completes which can easily be negated by Blocking and Dodging. Awful ability and deserves another overhaul really.

2. Lacerate - The cast times suck obviously, there's no immediate impact using this skill and is easy dealt with by common cleanses if you aim to use it against multiple targets. The range on the cone is a little off too, it's so much easier to hit people with Dawnbreaker than with this, Dawnbreaker is also much cheaper and gives you extra weapon damage while slotted. I really can't see why anyone would use this ultimate it's got to be one of the weakest ultimates in the game if not the weakest.

Both of these abilities are in dire need to improvements or overhauls. The remaining skills and passives are really strong.

idk

Odd how steel tornado was called spin-to-win in PvP not that long ago, and still works, and here we have someone suggesting that DW is not worthy for PvP. It really comes down to what you are doing and how you are using it.

The biggest reason to pick 2H over DW is damage the damage comes all at once (and having a heal) vs a channeled skill and a DoT. In the end, the difference between the two skill lines is good overall and good for the game.

BTW, I doubt a dev will reply to the question though as it is pretty straight forward why there is a difference. Maybe ask during an ESO Live.

shimm

2handed is way better in pvp - just check your death recaps, several 2h skills will show up regularly: including a still meta Ultimate. When’s the last time you were killed by lacerate ... never? Me neither! The only DW skill on your recap, maybe, will be Whirling blades. And literally no one uses blade cloak, ever. There’s no 2h skill that comes close to being as useless.

relentless_turnip

I use dw on a couple of builds in PvP. It works nice for me tbh, I know 2h would be better, but dw feels fast and 2h feels clunky to me.

Having a cc on your spammable is actually not good imo against opponents that know how to play. I save my cc for when i need it. That said dw does need a buff to be competitive though. Maybe increase the damage on rapids as it can miss a lot. I think that's why jabs is aoe as it ensures that most of the channel connects.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=273776 Stam sorc uses health, Stam and major savagery potions

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=257189 Stamcro uses weapon damage potions.

Casterial

It was nerfed to oblivion ~December 2019

Pauls

Laughs in both bars DW stamsorc build

Firstmep

There are a lot of builds that favor dual wield over 2h, like draugrkin sorc, and melee heavy attack builds etc.

For stat based setup 2h is just superior for a few reasons:

1. 4 out of the 6 classes dont have a source of major brutality thats comparable to momentum.
2. Dizzy swing is very popular for high stat based setup as it deals burst damage, and provides a very usefull debuff(off balance).
3. 2H passives are more suited for burst damage and pvp in general with things like follow up and battle rush.

cheesefome

idk wrote: »

Odd how steel tornado was called spin-to-win in PvP not that long ago, and still works, and here we have someone suggesting that DW is not worthy for PvP. It really comes down to what you are doing and how you are using it.

The biggest reason to pick 2H over DW is damage the damage comes all at once (and having a heal) vs a channeled skill and a DoT. In the end, the difference between the two skill lines is good overall and good for the game.

BTW, I doubt a dev will reply to the question though as it is pretty straight forward why there is a difference. Maybe ask during an ESO Live.

You have clearly not tested 2H and DW in PvP. I will say this though, the dot damage from DW skills are no where enough damage. Also, rally alone is enough to stay 2H. 10%stam recovery, 20%damage boost, a HIGHLY viable and arguably OP burst heal. 2H in a fair bout will oblidirate DW. Execute does the same thing as WBlades but better if you choose reverse slice morph. 2H autos also do aoe damag and so does stampede. DW specialty is suppose to be aoe/dots but all of this package you are getting in the 2H tree with bonus skills like executioner, rally, stampede.

idk

cheesefome wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Odd how steel tornado was called spin-to-win in PvP not that long ago, and still works, and here we have someone suggesting that DW is not worthy for PvP. It really comes down to what you are doing and how you are using it.

The biggest reason to pick 2H over DW is damage the damage comes all at once (and having a heal) vs a channeled skill and a DoT. In the end, the difference between the two skill lines is good overall and good for the game.

BTW, I doubt a dev will reply to the question though as it is pretty straight forward why there is a difference. Maybe ask during an ESO Live.

You have clearly not tested 2H and DW in PvP.

LOL. I started in PvP when the game launched. For those of us that have been around for a while we have seen a lot of changes to this game. Thank you for your clever insight though.

Atherakhia

Specifically for PvP, Stamina in general is overpowered and needs to be toned down. I really don't think we need to see DW improved any just to bring it in line with 2h. It's honestly not that weak to begin with it. It suffers from 2 issues. The first is it doesn't have rally. Rally alone is enough for most people to bring a 2hander. It provide major brutality that is hard to get for many stamina classes and it provides a burst heal that many stamina classes lack. While you can get major brutality on DW, there's no denying that Rally is better overall because of the ability to pre-buff it and the heal is icing on the cake.

The second major issue is the 50% execute on 2h is far more powerful than DW. DW execute is quite powerful, but because it's AE it's much weaker in comparison. Considering the way damage works in this game, it doesn't take much effort to drop someone to 50% health which makes it very easy to burst people down in PvP.

As I said above, Stamina in general is overpowered and there's a reason so few mag classes stand out in PvP. If anything, I'd sooner adjust 2H down than improve DW any.

cheesefome

Atherakhia wrote: »

Specifically for PvP, Stamina in general is overpowered and needs to be toned down. I really don't think we need to see DW improved any just to bring it in line with 2h. It's honestly not that weak to begin with it. It suffers from 2 issues. The first is it doesn't have rally. Rally alone is enough for most people to bring a 2hander. It provide major brutality that is hard to get for many stamina classes and it provides a burst heal that many stamina classes lack. While you can get major brutality on DW, there's no denying that Rally is better overall because of the ability to pre-buff it and the heal is icing on the cake.

The second major issue is the 50% execute on 2h is far more powerful than DW. DW execute is quite powerful, but because it's AE it's much weaker in comparison. Considering the way damage works in this game, it doesn't take much effort to drop someone to 50% health which makes it very easy to burst people down in PvP.

As I said above, Stamina in general is overpowered and there's a reason so few mag classes stand out in PvP. If anything, I'd sooner adjust 2H down than improve DW any.

DW needs damage adjustments to some skills and better purposes. As of now, most of their skills are dated in the PvP scene. DOT's on those skills don't make up for the lack of damage. The long animations as well are horrible. They also require similar sustain skill as rally. 2H is perfectly fine where it stands. They have balanced it enough so that it's equally as viable as DW in PvE so there is no reason to go DW now. It used to be that DW was a thing because of PvE but since they have adjusted 2H, DW atm is obsolete.

Solariken

The only skill that needs a total rework IMO is Hidden Blade morphs. Flying Blade morph needs to be a REAL gap closer, and Shrouded Daggers needs the snare back.

Major Brutality should be removed from Hidden Blade and made a passive that procs for a few seconds when you deal direct damage with a dual wield ability.

Solariken

Oh and the ultimate is really, really lame...

Sylvermynx

idk wrote: »

Odd how steel tornado was called spin-to-win in PvP not that long ago, and still works, and here we have someone suggesting that DW is not worthy for PvP. It really comes down to what you are doing and how you are using it.

The biggest reason to pick 2H over DW is damage the damage comes all at once (and having a heal) vs a channeled skill and a DoT. In the end, the difference between the two skill lines is good overall and good for the game.

BTW, I doubt a dev will reply to the question though as it is pretty straight forward why there is a difference. Maybe ask during an ESO Live.

Eh, I don't pvp ever. But I LOVE steel tornado on my pve NBs. It's actually the one thing I can count on to get them out of combat with multiple mobs - alive. I had a hard time to begin with on NBs because of crap internet. It's still not that great even with much better 'net.

I do like 2 hand in pve too. However, for me NBs are just.... not optimal at all.

NordJitsu

I use DW on my NB, but only for the double dagger crit increase. I don't use any of the skills, like you said.

On my heavy NecroTank, I use sword and board and dual wield. I actually use both whirlwind for the AOE execute, and flying blade for the awesome long range gap closer and 40 seconds of Major Brutality. Both of which my class lines don't have.

dsalter

the reason that DW gets used less over 2hander is because of the synergy of dizzy swings and execute.
that crap hits like a truck.
meanwhile DW's execute ability comes from passives, for DoT focused damage thats a bad execute method.
DW's bet class synergy used to be Stam Sorc due to implosion's burst power from low health DoTs ontop of DW passive