Anyone else think Zos been too hard with vampire Penalty?

ZOS_ConnorG

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DarknessShallFall

They still need to fix Corrupting Bloody Mary's too. They turn you to stage 4 but give health regen passive. Kind of a useless drink to use now. I've already reported it twice in the game, but they've yet to do anything about it.

EDIT: Also I think it would be cool to regain health at stage 4, if you're in the dark/shadows or in dark places like homes, buildings, nighttime, certain delves. It would be hard to do outside during the daytime, making something like that. But inside of places would be cool. Just maybe, 10% recovery though for stage 4, better than none.

(Mainly because that one vampire lore book, I believe, mentions that vampires heal at night)

Vevvev

DarknessShallFall wrote: »

They still need to fix Corrupting Bloody Mary's too. They turn you to stage 4 but give health regen passive. Kind of a useless drink to use now. I've already reported it twice in the game, but they've yet to do anything about it.

EDIT: Also I think it would be cool to regain health at stage 4, if you're in the dark/shadows or in dark places like homes, buildings, nighttime, certain delves. It would be hard to do outside during the daytime, making something like that. But inside of places would be cool. Just maybe, 10% recovery though for stage 4, better than none.

(Mainly because that one vampire lore book, I believe, mentions that vampires heal at night)

That would be nice but the one thing the devs didn't follow was that lore book. In fact they got rid of the one night/day thing vampires had and made it universal so it doesn't matter anymore.

Lord-Otto

hakan wrote: »

i dont get this talk about hp regen. why is it that important? if you dont build for it, its a bad stat already like 300-400. old vampire doesnt change anything in that situation.

Having low hp regen is fine and an acceptable drawback. Having zero hp regen means that you have to actively heal any fall damage, any random monster attack while passing through, any small DoT placed on you. It makes the game a lot more complicated and is therefore a hefty disadvantage.

Vevvev

Lord-Otto wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

i dont get this talk about hp regen. why is it that important? if you dont build for it, its a bad stat already like 300-400. old vampire doesnt change anything in that situation.

Having low hp regen is fine and an acceptable drawback. Having zero hp regen means that you have to actively heal any fall damage, any random monster attack while passing through, any small DoT placed on you. It makes the game a lot more complicated and is therefore a hefty disadvantage.

After the 10th time I've had to dismount to heal I began regretting my decision lol. Also in PVP when running from a zerg, or to a keep, on horseback if you take any damage it'll persist until you dismount and heal. This is super risky, especially considering how opportunistic gankers are when they see injured players galloping by.

Edit: Also let's not forget the pitiful self heals vampire has access to, and the non-vampire cost increase that makes using useful heals a pain. Your sustain is being gutted on more than just your damage dealing rotations.

ZaroktheImmortal

Mayrael wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The penalties are pretty harsh, but compared to the old vampire line the flame damage penalties are actually far less. That being said I'd take the extra flame damage back if it meant getting rid of that non-vampire cost increase in a heartbeat. Also kinda wish the health regen was more like 0-30-60-90 instead of 10-30-60-100.

old bonus
Still 25% more damage from fire
Health regenerates 75% slower
Vampire abilities cost 21% less

new bonus
-100% health recovery
Flame damage taken +20%
Regular ability cost +12%
Vampire ability cost -24%

seriously i would rather take 5% more fire damage, then 12% cost increase for all other skill line. also the -100% health recovery kinda hurt..

Unpopular opinion here. Yeah... Awesome, but maybe we will compare pros to? Unnatural movement, better undeath, strike from shadows, better dark stalker available from stage 1 (USED TO BE 4!), powerful ultimate, better mist form, now you can use all vampire skills without worrying about stage etc. etc. Being vampire gives a lot of power now, but it requires some dedication and building around it, ITS NO LONGER MANDATORY TO BECOME VAMPIRE, NOW ITS A CHOICE WITH PROS AND CONS! GOOD!

The passives aren't that great, seriously. Undeath is pretty much what we had before. Dark stalker is meh okay if you want to do stealth but you can get the same effect from other things in game. Being able to run and turn invisible is pretty much only good for avoiding enemies if you want to get through an area quicker and the damage boost from coming out of invisibility well...there are far too many downsides. It's not just a choice with pros and cons before it was a choice with pros and cons. Now it's a terrible choice with very few pros and lots of cons.

You sure? Then lets compare them.

Old passives.
Savage feeding. After feeding target is off-balance and stuned for 4s.
Supernatural revcovery. Stage 2 required. 10 % more stam and magicka recovery - the only reason why PvErs used to change into vampires.
Blood ritual. No changes.
Undeath. Stage 3 required. When below 50% the lower your health is the more damage mitigation you get up to 33%.
Unnatural resistance. Reduced health recovery penalty (max. to 50%)
Dark Stalker. Stage 4 required. Ignore movement speed penalty in sneak. 50% faster into sneak at night.


New passives.
Dark stalker. No requirement, just be vampire. Ignore movement speed penalty in sneak. 50% faster into sneak ALL THE TIME - its better version of 5pc set bonus
Strike from shadows. Stage 2 required. After leaving sneak, invisibility or mist form you get 300 spell/weapon damage for 6s - almost like 5pc julianos/hundings rage sets bonus
Blood ritual. No changes.
Undeath. Stage 3 required. Reduces damage taken up to 30% based on missing health. Now scales from 100% hp! 2x time better than the old one!. Its another 5 pc set bonus equivalent!
Unnatural movement. Stage 4 required. 50% sprint cost reduction. Invisibility after 3s of sprint - in PvE nothing special just an utility, but in PvP... oh man!

So you are trying to tell me that 3-4 5pc set bonuses are worse than it used to be? Facts are saying something completly different. Even for PvE vampire can be amazing, how?

Just an example.
Stay at stage 2 and use seducer or alteration mastery to negate cost increase. For the loss of spell damage from using sustain set, you will recieve strike from shadows passive (300 spell damage - almost like julianos) another 660 spell damage (of GCD) to create burst windows (so in general you can get 960!!!! spell damage from being vampire, more than any set can give - you can sacrifice some recovery to get this).

Do vampires need tweaks?! Of course they do! Do vamp passives need buffs? Definetly not!. Blood for blood changes was really bad. Instead of drain, it would be nice to get gap closer&aoe on vampires. But new vamp passives are really powerful when compared to old ones, thats a fact. Thats why there is that cost increase. If you want everyone to run vampires please be my guest...

Dark stalker. - this does very little unless you do a lot of stealth
Strike from shadow - still not that great a perk and not worth the drawbacks
Undeath - Again still not worth the drawbacks especially as you lose health regeneration and abilities cost more and all the abilities are pretty much useless

And yes you can use gearing to lower cost of abilities...or you could do something far better with gearing without vampirism.

It's not about everyone running vampires it's about the fact that vampires are so bad there's no logical reason to play one now. And no, vampires are not more powerful they're far worse than they've ever been. [snip] They're so terrible there's really no reason to play one any more.

You do a lot of stealth in Cyrodiil/IC. 300 spell/weapon damage is great buff very similar to NMA as the cost increase at stage 2 is only 5%. Undeath - Constant minor up to major protection that stacks with every other source of protection is bad? Lol Health regen? Somehow I can't see health regen as a must have for endgame PvE or even PvP, most players run with 300-400 hp recovery either way so don't tell me its a big deal. Numbers my friend, numbers is what matters, not blank statements "VAMPIRES ARE DEAD" - TBF they are undead and kicking, just not the way they used to.

EDIT:
...and about gearing. Yes you can use other stuff but in the end what matters the most is stats density, and there is no set that can give you so much benefits.

Vampires shouldn't be mandatory like they used to be. Now if you want to be a vampire you do it intentionally for certain benefits while sacrificing something else, less important for you. If vampire doesnt fit your needs, don't become one.

"You do a lot of stealth in Cyrodiil/IC." I don't know where you've been in cyrodil but no you don't unless you're a ganker and in a fight that won't help you much also lacks any help in pvp.

" 5%. Undeath - Constant minor up to major protection that stacks with every other source of protection is bad? " not worth the costs.

"Health regen? Somehow I can't see health regen as a must have for endgame PvE or even PvP, most players run with 300-400 hp recovery either way so don't tell me its a big deal. Numbers my friend, numbers is what matters, not blank statements "VAMPIRES ARE DEAD" - TBF they are undead and kicking, just not the way they used to"

Yes because somehow a few stealth passives make you UBER POWER VAMPIRE despite having a *** skill line and non vamp abilities costing more little to none health regeneration and more fire damage so in PVP the very thing you mentioned people can use that against you in fact I'm pretty sure there is a passive for people to do more damage against undead again not helpful for vampire players. [snip]

[snip] Even whole groups are using it and its esential for any small scale/solo players. Have you ever seen running away sorc or warden? Now imagine they can go invisible just like NB while running faster than your unbufed mount.

[snip] it's one of the most powerfull passives you can get, [snip] - every single source of major protection from sets was nerfed not so long ago for a reason.

[snip]

Im not saying vampires are great and all, but thats the point, they shouldn't be. Vampires are great for certain usage built around being vampire, not for everyone who wants to play magicka character.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Yeah, it's still not that useful. And when it comes into all the downsides by stage 4 all your non vampire abiltiies cost a lot more and most of the vampire abilities are useless. You lose all health regeneration take more fire damage. So all in all non of it is worth it. Only real thing I like now is the pale skin look I'd trade a vampire skin for being a vampire right about now.

Fruity_Ninja

It was a horrible change to the skilline, I've cured all characters except one (my nightblade). The skills are average at best, the ult is so expensive and the drawbacks on normal ability cost are too prohibitive.

Was a real shame, I really miss the old bats ultimate. Iconic vamp skill that I used all the time

WARchief10K

Everyone replying with "it shouldnt be mandatory" and "now it's a choice" no...

They've messed with vampire so much, barely anyone wants to run it anymore, and the only logical sense is to go FULL ON vampire.

Compare it to WW and it's laughable.

Each skill takes up a slot, huge negatives to regen etc, and vamp form.

While WW kicks in as a huge bonus, then goes away.

If there was a magicka based WW, why would anyone choose vamp outside of RP?

Add this to the list of things just messed with for the heck of it I guess and ruined, just like Rapids.

sentientomega

They were literally fine before, being Stage 4 to be a magicka-based criminal was perfectly fine.

If I had the slots to make a vampire character, I'm really not sure how I'd go about revising the build I came up with pre-Greymoor. The kiss-curse nature needs revisiting, I think, so that not only does it not need to be mandatory to play one (not that it ever was, really), but so that it's also not mandatory to *avoid* playing one, and right now, the latter seems far more the case.

lihentian

Mayrael wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The penalties are pretty harsh, but compared to the old vampire line the flame damage penalties are actually far less. That being said I'd take the extra flame damage back if it meant getting rid of that non-vampire cost increase in a heartbeat. Also kinda wish the health regen was more like 0-30-60-90 instead of 10-30-60-100.

old bonus
Still 25% more damage from fire
Health regenerates 75% slower
Vampire abilities cost 21% less

new bonus
-100% health recovery
Flame damage taken +20%
Regular ability cost +12%
Vampire ability cost -24%

seriously i would rather take 5% more fire damage, then 12% cost increase for all other skill line. also the -100% health recovery kinda hurt..

Unpopular opinion here. Yeah... Awesome, but maybe we will compare pros to? Unnatural movement, better undeath, strike from shadows, better dark stalker available from stage 1 (USED TO BE 4!), powerful ultimate, better mist form, now you can use all vampire skills without worrying about stage etc. etc. Being vampire gives a lot of power now, but it requires some dedication and building around it, ITS NO LONGER MANDATORY TO BECOME VAMPIRE, NOW ITS A CHOICE WITH PROS AND CONS! GOOD!

sorry, but i fail to see your point.

Before- you get a nice passive. a wise tree to spend your skill point.
now?? health

Mayrael wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The penalties are pretty harsh, but compared to the old vampire line the flame damage penalties are actually far less. That being said I'd take the extra flame damage back if it meant getting rid of that non-vampire cost increase in a heartbeat. Also kinda wish the health regen was more like 0-30-60-90 instead of 10-30-60-100.

old bonus
Still 25% more damage from fire
Health regenerates 75% slower
Vampire abilities cost 21% less

new bonus
-100% health recovery
Flame damage taken +20%
Regular ability cost +12%
Vampire ability cost -24%

seriously i would rather take 5% more fire damage, then 12% cost increase for all other skill line. also the -100% health recovery kinda hurt..

Unpopular opinion here. Yeah... Awesome, but maybe we will compare pros to? Unnatural movement, better undeath, strike from shadows, better dark stalker available from stage 1 (USED TO BE 4!), powerful ultimate, better mist form, now you can use all vampire skills without worrying about stage etc. etc. Being vampire gives a lot of power now, but it requires some dedication and building around it, ITS NO LONGER MANDATORY TO BECOME VAMPIRE, NOW ITS A CHOICE WITH PROS AND CONS! GOOD!

do you do more dps now with the vampire skill line? do you survive better with it? imo it is mostly all drawback. some of the passive may sound really cool, but they don't really do much.

you do less dps(due to source management issue +12% resource cost for all other skill)
you survive worsen(20% increase fire damage taken, -100% health regen)

and the worst thing is, before you can stay a tier one without too much drawback and some nice bonus to magicka/stamina regen. now? staying at tier one literally give you only draw back, tier four give you much more drawback.

vampire now is a choice, a choice to be worse....