Anyone else think Zos been too hard with vampire Penalty?

lihentian

stage 4
100% health recovery- hurt but i can tolerate...
Flame damage taken +20%- the most common damage type anywhere... you will find it in almost every dungeon.
Regular ability cost +12%- Breton Racial passive only give 7%.. are you serious? do zos really think anyone actually gonna live with only vampire skill? imo they are not that good
Vampire ability cost -24% i like to say this is great... but vampire ability aren't that useful...this 24% doesn't make much of difference. while the +12% cost to all other skill really destroy my rotation.

Zeromaz

Yeah... they need to revisit this.... already

Vevvev

The penalties are pretty harsh, but compared to the old vampire line the flame damage penalties are actually far less. That being said I'd take the extra flame damage back if it meant getting rid of that non-vampire cost increase in a heartbeat. Also kinda wish the health regen was more like 0-30-60-90 instead of 10-30-60-100.

ZaroktheImmortal

Penalties too harsh and perks to being a vampire too small.

ZaroktheImmortal

They made it so non vampire abilities cost more to make us rely more on vampire abilities then couldn't even make a good ability line except for one ability that they ended up nerfing so badly that pretty much no one uses it any more.

lihentian

Vevvev wrote: »

The penalties are pretty harsh, but compared to the old vampire line the flame damage penalties are actually far less. That being said I'd take the extra flame damage back if it meant getting rid of that non-vampire cost increase in a heartbeat. Also kinda wish the health regen was more like 0-30-60-90 instead of 10-30-60-100.

old bonus
Still 25% more damage from fire
Health regenerates 75% slower
Vampire abilities cost 21% less

new bonus
-100% health recovery
Flame damage taken +20%
Regular ability cost +12%
Vampire ability cost -24%

seriously i would rather take 5% more fire damage, then 12% cost increase for all other skill line. also the -100% health recovery kinda hurt..

Vevvev

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

They made it so non vampire abilities cost more to make us rely more on vampire abilities then couldn't even make a good ability line except for one ability that they ended up nerfing so badly that pretty much no one uses it any more.

Pretty much this. I deal less damage with Arterial Burst even when at low health and combined with Blood Frenzy than I do with Flame Whip and Blood Frenzy. Not sure what the case is with other classes and spammables but the vampire stuff is looking rather bleak at the moment...

Kurat

It's still great to RP.

Sephyr

Vevvev wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

They made it so non vampire abilities cost more to make us rely more on vampire abilities then couldn't even make a good ability line except for one ability that they ended up nerfing so badly that pretty much no one uses it any more.

Pretty much this. I deal less damage with Arterial Burst even when at low health and combined with Blood Frenzy than I do with Flame Whip and Blood Frenzy. Not sure what the case is with other classes and spammables but the vampire stuff is looking rather bleak at the moment...

Necro it's sort of neck and neck (no pun). The thing about that though is Arterial Burst doesn't apply status effects where as Ricochet Skull does and you can be ranged. With the resource costs added to the mix, it's just not worth it. Mist Form was the only good thing that came out of the line and that's putting it lightly.

Mayrael

lihentian wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The penalties are pretty harsh, but compared to the old vampire line the flame damage penalties are actually far less. That being said I'd take the extra flame damage back if it meant getting rid of that non-vampire cost increase in a heartbeat. Also kinda wish the health regen was more like 0-30-60-90 instead of 10-30-60-100.

old bonus
Still 25% more damage from fire
Health regenerates 75% slower
Vampire abilities cost 21% less

new bonus
-100% health recovery
Flame damage taken +20%
Regular ability cost +12%
Vampire ability cost -24%

seriously i would rather take 5% more fire damage, then 12% cost increase for all other skill line. also the -100% health recovery kinda hurt..

Unpopular opinion here. Yeah... Awesome, but maybe we will compare pros to? Unnatural movement, better undeath, strike from shadows, better dark stalker available from stage 1 (USED TO BE 4!), powerful ultimate, better mist form, now you can use all vampire skills without worrying about stage etc. etc. Being vampire gives a lot of power now, but it requires some dedication and building around it, ITS NO LONGER MANDATORY TO BECOME VAMPIRE, NOW ITS A CHOICE WITH PROS AND CONS! GOOD!

ZaroktheImmortal

Sephyr wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

They made it so non vampire abilities cost more to make us rely more on vampire abilities then couldn't even make a good ability line except for one ability that they ended up nerfing so badly that pretty much no one uses it any more.

Pretty much this. I deal less damage with Arterial Burst even when at low health and combined with Blood Frenzy than I do with Flame Whip and Blood Frenzy. Not sure what the case is with other classes and spammables but the vampire stuff is looking rather bleak at the moment...

Necro it's sort of neck and neck (no pun). The thing about that though is Arterial Burst doesn't apply status effects where as Ricochet Skull does and you can be ranged. With the resource costs added to the mix, it's just not worth it. Mist Form was the only good thing that came out of the line and that's putting it lightly.

I mean...we had mist form before. The only benefit it got from the changes was getting a toggle.

ZaroktheImmortal

Mayrael wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The penalties are pretty harsh, but compared to the old vampire line the flame damage penalties are actually far less. That being said I'd take the extra flame damage back if it meant getting rid of that non-vampire cost increase in a heartbeat. Also kinda wish the health regen was more like 0-30-60-90 instead of 10-30-60-100.

old bonus
Still 25% more damage from fire
Health regenerates 75% slower
Vampire abilities cost 21% less

new bonus
-100% health recovery
Flame damage taken +20%
Regular ability cost +12%
Vampire ability cost -24%

seriously i would rather take 5% more fire damage, then 12% cost increase for all other skill line. also the -100% health recovery kinda hurt..

Unpopular opinion here. Yeah... Awesome, but maybe we will compare pros to? Unnatural movement, better undeath, strike from shadows, better dark stalker available from stage 1 (USED TO BE 4!), powerful ultimate, better mist form, now you can use all vampire skills without worrying about stage etc. etc. Being vampire gives a lot of power now, but it requires some dedication and building around it, ITS NO LONGER MANDATORY TO BECOME VAMPIRE, NOW ITS A CHOICE WITH PROS AND CONS! GOOD!

The passives aren't that great, seriously. Undeath is pretty much what we had before. Dark stalker is meh okay if you want to do stealth but you can get the same effect from other things in game. Being able to run and turn invisible is pretty much only good for avoiding enemies if you want to get through an area quicker and the damage boost from coming out of invisibility well...there are far too many downsides. It's not just a choice with pros and cons before it was a choice with pros and cons. Now it's a terrible choice with very few pros and lots of cons.

Jierdanit

Mayrael wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The penalties are pretty harsh, but compared to the old vampire line the flame damage penalties are actually far less. That being said I'd take the extra flame damage back if it meant getting rid of that non-vampire cost increase in a heartbeat. Also kinda wish the health regen was more like 0-30-60-90 instead of 10-30-60-100.

old bonus
Still 25% more damage from fire
Health regenerates 75% slower
Vampire abilities cost 21% less

new bonus
-100% health recovery
Flame damage taken +20%
Regular ability cost +12%
Vampire ability cost -24%

seriously i would rather take 5% more fire damage, then 12% cost increase for all other skill line. also the -100% health recovery kinda hurt..

Unpopular opinion here. Yeah... Awesome, but maybe we will compare pros to? Unnatural movement, better undeath, strike from shadows, better dark stalker available from stage 1 (USED TO BE 4!), powerful ultimate, better mist form, now you can use all vampire skills without worrying about stage etc. etc. Being vampire gives a lot of power now, but it requires some dedication and building around it, ITS NO LONGER MANDATORY TO BECOME VAMPIRE, NOW ITS A CHOICE WITH PROS AND CONS! GOOD!

Not really imo, vampire used to be a really good help for your sustain and defense with the extra regeneration, undead, mist and swarm and all of those were skills/passives you could use to fix holes in your builds (which might have admittedly been a bit to strong for its drawbacks).

Now they have completely gone into the opposite direction of where they used to be.

After Greymoor vamp has become more of a general damage / gank skill line with the only remaining defensive parts about it being undead and mistform (and in part that now really ugly ult).
Also now you generally only want to be as low vamp stage as possible, because the cost increase passive just hurts so badly that at least in PvP except for very very few builds, everyone is at max stage 1 vamp.
While i would actually think that a partly Vampire themed update, of which the vamp rework also was a kinda big part, would lead to Vampire being an overall better experience instead to what it is now.

So yea vampire maybe was a bit too much of a must have before Greymoor but the rework did certainly not make it better but rather made it far worse, since rn vamp is either used only for Mist Form or for gankers that can actually work with Simmering Frenzy and the new damage passives.

Mayrael

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The penalties are pretty harsh, but compared to the old vampire line the flame damage penalties are actually far less. That being said I'd take the extra flame damage back if it meant getting rid of that non-vampire cost increase in a heartbeat. Also kinda wish the health regen was more like 0-30-60-90 instead of 10-30-60-100.

old bonus
Still 25% more damage from fire
Health regenerates 75% slower
Vampire abilities cost 21% less

new bonus
-100% health recovery
Flame damage taken +20%
Regular ability cost +12%
Vampire ability cost -24%

seriously i would rather take 5% more fire damage, then 12% cost increase for all other skill line. also the -100% health recovery kinda hurt..

Unpopular opinion here. Yeah... Awesome, but maybe we will compare pros to? Unnatural movement, better undeath, strike from shadows, better dark stalker available from stage 1 (USED TO BE 4!), powerful ultimate, better mist form, now you can use all vampire skills without worrying about stage etc. etc. Being vampire gives a lot of power now, but it requires some dedication and building around it, ITS NO LONGER MANDATORY TO BECOME VAMPIRE, NOW ITS A CHOICE WITH PROS AND CONS! GOOD!

The passives aren't that great, seriously. Undeath is pretty much what we had before. Dark stalker is meh okay if you want to do stealth but you can get the same effect from other things in game. Being able to run and turn invisible is pretty much only good for avoiding enemies if you want to get through an area quicker and the damage boost from coming out of invisibility well...there are far too many downsides. It's not just a choice with pros and cons before it was a choice with pros and cons. Now it's a terrible choice with very few pros and lots of cons.

You sure? Then lets compare them.

Old passives.
Savage feeding. After feeding target is off-balance and stuned for 4s.
Supernatural revcovery. Stage 2 required. 10 % more stam and magicka recovery - the only reason why PvErs used to change into vampires.
Blood ritual. No changes.
Undeath. Stage 3 required. When below 50% the lower your health is the more damage mitigation you get up to 33%.
Unnatural resistance. Reduced health recovery penalty (max. to 50%)
Dark Stalker. Stage 4 required. Ignore movement speed penalty in sneak. 50% faster into sneak at night.


New passives.
Dark stalker. No requirement, just be vampire. Ignore movement speed penalty in sneak. 50% faster into sneak ALL THE TIME - its better version of 5pc set bonus
Strike from shadows. Stage 2 required. After leaving sneak, invisibility or mist form you get 300 spell/weapon damage for 6s - almost like 5pc julianos/hundings rage sets bonus
Blood ritual. No changes.
Undeath. Stage 3 required. Reduces damage taken up to 30% based on missing health. Now scales from 100% hp! 2x time better than the old one!. Its another 5 pc set bonus equivalent!
Unnatural movement. Stage 4 required. 50% sprint cost reduction. Invisibility after 3s of sprint - in PvE nothing special just an utility, but in PvP... oh man!

So you are trying to tell me that 3-4 5pc set bonuses are worse than it used to be? Facts are saying something completly different. Even for PvE vampire can be amazing, how?

Just an example.
Stay at stage 2 and use seducer or alteration mastery to negate cost increase. For the loss of spell damage from using sustain set, you will recieve strike from shadows passive (300 spell damage - almost like julianos) another 660 spell damage (of GCD) to create burst windows (so in general you can get 960!!!! spell damage from being vampire, more than any set can give - you can sacrifice some recovery to get this).

Do vampires need tweaks?! Of course they do! Do vamp passives need buffs? Definetly not!. Blood for blood changes was really bad. Instead of drain, it would be nice to get gap closer&aoe on vampires. But new vamp passives are really powerful when compared to old ones, thats a fact. Thats why there is that cost increase. If you want everyone to run vampires please be my guest...

Charon_on_Vacation

they should revisit vampire, and i assume they will some time, because zos themselves know, they are not very good at balancing anything.
question is, when will that happen?
there have been a few good suggestions to improve the skill line in varying degrees.
reverse the vampire stage to cost table or get rid of the increased cost at all are easy solutions and would improve the status quo.
reworking the skills would take more work and likely won't happen very soon.
though reverting one or two skills would be easier and zos is known for reverting stuff after they realize they made a huge mistake.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Maybe they could add some buffs to Vampires not related to combat like jumping higher or a resistance to falling damage, sure a Vampire may be terrible at PvP but they could do everything else better, it would balance it out.

If Vampires have super strength then they should have greater resistance to the impact of hitting the ground at terminal velocity then a mortal would, infact did you know a squirrel can survive falling from Terminal Velocity? so why cant a Supernatural Creature survive a fall long before even hitting that speed? Werewolves should get this as well, also why not a Hunter's Sight like ability that highlights potential prey, it would work kind of like Camo Hunter on the Fighters Guild Skillline.

Xarc

Actually playing as vampire stage 4 is like doing all the game in hardmode

Sarannah

I have commented on other threads about the new vampire, with what I feel is wrong with it. But the major issue about the new vampire is that even when you do not want to use it, it penalizes you with ability costs. So it is either cure, or make it very useful vs the penalties. There is no in between anymore.

The vampire re-work should never have been used as an outlet, to aid those who claim the game is too easy. It should have been an actual proper vampire build rework.

ScardyFox

The vampire desperately needs an overhaul... but it won't happen because they basically went the laziest route they could in its new inception. It could have been so much better -- instead its steeped in mediocrity. So much missed opportunity.

As to answer the real question.... yes, the penalties are too harsh in some aspects. Minus 100% health regen is absurd and for the most part you don't need a long drawn out conversation justifying it either way. The fact it's considered stupid (for the most part) to go above stage two says it all.

LovesCoffee

vamp ulti is too ugly, im using it but i hate how it looks, expected to see some elegant vampire but not this monster

ZaroktheImmortal

Mayrael wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The penalties are pretty harsh, but compared to the old vampire line the flame damage penalties are actually far less. That being said I'd take the extra flame damage back if it meant getting rid of that non-vampire cost increase in a heartbeat. Also kinda wish the health regen was more like 0-30-60-90 instead of 10-30-60-100.

old bonus
Still 25% more damage from fire
Health regenerates 75% slower
Vampire abilities cost 21% less

new bonus
-100% health recovery
Flame damage taken +20%
Regular ability cost +12%
Vampire ability cost -24%

seriously i would rather take 5% more fire damage, then 12% cost increase for all other skill line. also the -100% health recovery kinda hurt..

Unpopular opinion here. Yeah... Awesome, but maybe we will compare pros to? Unnatural movement, better undeath, strike from shadows, better dark stalker available from stage 1 (USED TO BE 4!), powerful ultimate, better mist form, now you can use all vampire skills without worrying about stage etc. etc. Being vampire gives a lot of power now, but it requires some dedication and building around it, ITS NO LONGER MANDATORY TO BECOME VAMPIRE, NOW ITS A CHOICE WITH PROS AND CONS! GOOD!

The passives aren't that great, seriously. Undeath is pretty much what we had before. Dark stalker is meh okay if you want to do stealth but you can get the same effect from other things in game. Being able to run and turn invisible is pretty much only good for avoiding enemies if you want to get through an area quicker and the damage boost from coming out of invisibility well...there are far too many downsides. It's not just a choice with pros and cons before it was a choice with pros and cons. Now it's a terrible choice with very few pros and lots of cons.

You sure? Then lets compare them.

Old passives.
Savage feeding. After feeding target is off-balance and stuned for 4s.
Supernatural revcovery. Stage 2 required. 10 % more stam and magicka recovery - the only reason why PvErs used to change into vampires.
Blood ritual. No changes.
Undeath. Stage 3 required. When below 50% the lower your health is the more damage mitigation you get up to 33%.
Unnatural resistance. Reduced health recovery penalty (max. to 50%)
Dark Stalker. Stage 4 required. Ignore movement speed penalty in sneak. 50% faster into sneak at night.


New passives.
Dark stalker. No requirement, just be vampire. Ignore movement speed penalty in sneak. 50% faster into sneak ALL THE TIME - its better version of 5pc set bonus
Strike from shadows. Stage 2 required. After leaving sneak, invisibility or mist form you get 300 spell/weapon damage for 6s - almost like 5pc julianos/hundings rage sets bonus
Blood ritual. No changes.
Undeath. Stage 3 required. Reduces damage taken up to 30% based on missing health. Now scales from 100% hp! 2x time better than the old one!. Its another 5 pc set bonus equivalent!
Unnatural movement. Stage 4 required. 50% sprint cost reduction. Invisibility after 3s of sprint - in PvE nothing special just an utility, but in PvP... oh man!

So you are trying to tell me that 3-4 5pc set bonuses are worse than it used to be? Facts are saying something completly different. Even for PvE vampire can be amazing, how?

Just an example.
Stay at stage 2 and use seducer or alteration mastery to negate cost increase. For the loss of spell damage from using sustain set, you will recieve strike from shadows passive (300 spell damage - almost like julianos) another 660 spell damage (of GCD) to create burst windows (so in general you can get 960!!!! spell damage from being vampire, more than any set can give - you can sacrifice some recovery to get this).

Do vampires need tweaks?! Of course they do! Do vamp passives need buffs? Definetly not!. Blood for blood changes was really bad. Instead of drain, it would be nice to get gap closer&aoe on vampires. But new vamp passives are really powerful when compared to old ones, thats a fact. Thats why there is that cost increase. If you want everyone to run vampires please be my guest...

Dark stalker. - this does very little unless you do a lot of stealth
Strike from shadow - still not that great a perk and not worth the drawbacks
Undeath - Again still not worth the drawbacks especially as you lose health regeneration and abilities cost more and all the abilities are pretty much useless

And yes you can use gearing to lower cost of abilities...or you could do something far better with gearing without vampirism.

It's not about everyone running vampires it's about the fact that vampires are so bad there's no logical reason to play one now. And no, vampires are not more powerful they're far worse than they've ever been. [snip] They're so terrible there's really no reason to play one any more.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Mayrael

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The penalties are pretty harsh, but compared to the old vampire line the flame damage penalties are actually far less. That being said I'd take the extra flame damage back if it meant getting rid of that non-vampire cost increase in a heartbeat. Also kinda wish the health regen was more like 0-30-60-90 instead of 10-30-60-100.

old bonus
Still 25% more damage from fire
Health regenerates 75% slower
Vampire abilities cost 21% less

new bonus
-100% health recovery
Flame damage taken +20%
Regular ability cost +12%
Vampire ability cost -24%

seriously i would rather take 5% more fire damage, then 12% cost increase for all other skill line. also the -100% health recovery kinda hurt..

Unpopular opinion here. Yeah... Awesome, but maybe we will compare pros to? Unnatural movement, better undeath, strike from shadows, better dark stalker available from stage 1 (USED TO BE 4!), powerful ultimate, better mist form, now you can use all vampire skills without worrying about stage etc. etc. Being vampire gives a lot of power now, but it requires some dedication and building around it, ITS NO LONGER MANDATORY TO BECOME VAMPIRE, NOW ITS A CHOICE WITH PROS AND CONS! GOOD!

The passives aren't that great, seriously. Undeath is pretty much what we had before. Dark stalker is meh okay if you want to do stealth but you can get the same effect from other things in game. Being able to run and turn invisible is pretty much only good for avoiding enemies if you want to get through an area quicker and the damage boost from coming out of invisibility well...there are far too many downsides. It's not just a choice with pros and cons before it was a choice with pros and cons. Now it's a terrible choice with very few pros and lots of cons.

You sure? Then lets compare them.

Old passives.
Savage feeding. After feeding target is off-balance and stuned for 4s.
Supernatural revcovery. Stage 2 required. 10 % more stam and magicka recovery - the only reason why PvErs used to change into vampires.
Blood ritual. No changes.
Undeath. Stage 3 required. When below 50% the lower your health is the more damage mitigation you get up to 33%.
Unnatural resistance. Reduced health recovery penalty (max. to 50%)
Dark Stalker. Stage 4 required. Ignore movement speed penalty in sneak. 50% faster into sneak at night.


New passives.
Dark stalker. No requirement, just be vampire. Ignore movement speed penalty in sneak. 50% faster into sneak ALL THE TIME - its better version of 5pc set bonus
Strike from shadows. Stage 2 required. After leaving sneak, invisibility or mist form you get 300 spell/weapon damage for 6s - almost like 5pc julianos/hundings rage sets bonus
Blood ritual. No changes.
Undeath. Stage 3 required. Reduces damage taken up to 30% based on missing health. Now scales from 100% hp! 2x time better than the old one!. Its another 5 pc set bonus equivalent!
Unnatural movement. Stage 4 required. 50% sprint cost reduction. Invisibility after 3s of sprint - in PvE nothing special just an utility, but in PvP... oh man!

So you are trying to tell me that 3-4 5pc set bonuses are worse than it used to be? Facts are saying something completly different. Even for PvE vampire can be amazing, how?

Just an example.
Stay at stage 2 and use seducer or alteration mastery to negate cost increase. For the loss of spell damage from using sustain set, you will recieve strike from shadows passive (300 spell damage - almost like julianos) another 660 spell damage (of GCD) to create burst windows (so in general you can get 960!!!! spell damage from being vampire, more than any set can give - you can sacrifice some recovery to get this).

Do vampires need tweaks?! Of course they do! Do vamp passives need buffs? Definetly not!. Blood for blood changes was really bad. Instead of drain, it would be nice to get gap closer&aoe on vampires. But new vamp passives are really powerful when compared to old ones, thats a fact. Thats why there is that cost increase. If you want everyone to run vampires please be my guest...

Dark stalker. - this does very little unless you do a lot of stealth
Strike from shadow - still not that great a perk and not worth the drawbacks
Undeath - Again still not worth the drawbacks especially as you lose health regeneration and abilities cost more and all the abilities are pretty much useless

And yes you can use gearing to lower cost of abilities...or you could do something far better with gearing without vampirism.

It's not about everyone running vampires it's about the fact that vampires are so bad there's no logical reason to play one now. And no, vampires are not more powerful they're far worse than they've ever been. [snip] They're so terrible there's really no reason to play one any more.

You do a lot of stealth in Cyrodiil/IC. 300 spell/weapon damage is great buff very similar to NMA as the cost increase at stage 2 is only 5%. Undeath - Constant minor up to major protection that stacks with every other source of protection is bad? Lol Health regen? Somehow I can't see health regen as a must have for endgame PvE or even PvP, most players run with 300-400 hp recovery either way so don't tell me its a big deal. Numbers my friend, numbers is what matters, not blank statements "VAMPIRES ARE DEAD" - TBF they are undead and kicking, just not the way they used to.

EDIT:
...and about gearing. Yes you can use other stuff but in the end what matters the most is stats density, and there is no set that can give you so much benefits.

Vampires shouldn't be mandatory like they used to be. Now if you want to be a vampire you do it intentionally for certain benefits while sacrificing something else, less important for you. If vampire doesnt fit your needs, don't become one.

ZaroktheImmortal

Mayrael wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The penalties are pretty harsh, but compared to the old vampire line the flame damage penalties are actually far less. That being said I'd take the extra flame damage back if it meant getting rid of that non-vampire cost increase in a heartbeat. Also kinda wish the health regen was more like 0-30-60-90 instead of 10-30-60-100.

old bonus
Still 25% more damage from fire
Health regenerates 75% slower
Vampire abilities cost 21% less

new bonus
-100% health recovery
Flame damage taken +20%
Regular ability cost +12%
Vampire ability cost -24%

seriously i would rather take 5% more fire damage, then 12% cost increase for all other skill line. also the -100% health recovery kinda hurt..

Unpopular opinion here. Yeah... Awesome, but maybe we will compare pros to? Unnatural movement, better undeath, strike from shadows, better dark stalker available from stage 1 (USED TO BE 4!), powerful ultimate, better mist form, now you can use all vampire skills without worrying about stage etc. etc. Being vampire gives a lot of power now, but it requires some dedication and building around it, ITS NO LONGER MANDATORY TO BECOME VAMPIRE, NOW ITS A CHOICE WITH PROS AND CONS! GOOD!

The passives aren't that great, seriously. Undeath is pretty much what we had before. Dark stalker is meh okay if you want to do stealth but you can get the same effect from other things in game. Being able to run and turn invisible is pretty much only good for avoiding enemies if you want to get through an area quicker and the damage boost from coming out of invisibility well...there are far too many downsides. It's not just a choice with pros and cons before it was a choice with pros and cons. Now it's a terrible choice with very few pros and lots of cons.

You sure? Then lets compare them.

Old passives.
Savage feeding. After feeding target is off-balance and stuned for 4s.
Supernatural revcovery. Stage 2 required. 10 % more stam and magicka recovery - the only reason why PvErs used to change into vampires.
Blood ritual. No changes.
Undeath. Stage 3 required. When below 50% the lower your health is the more damage mitigation you get up to 33%.
Unnatural resistance. Reduced health recovery penalty (max. to 50%)
Dark Stalker. Stage 4 required. Ignore movement speed penalty in sneak. 50% faster into sneak at night.


New passives.
Dark stalker. No requirement, just be vampire. Ignore movement speed penalty in sneak. 50% faster into sneak ALL THE TIME - its better version of 5pc set bonus
Strike from shadows. Stage 2 required. After leaving sneak, invisibility or mist form you get 300 spell/weapon damage for 6s - almost like 5pc julianos/hundings rage sets bonus
Blood ritual. No changes.
Undeath. Stage 3 required. Reduces damage taken up to 30% based on missing health. Now scales from 100% hp! 2x time better than the old one!. Its another 5 pc set bonus equivalent!
Unnatural movement. Stage 4 required. 50% sprint cost reduction. Invisibility after 3s of sprint - in PvE nothing special just an utility, but in PvP... oh man!

So you are trying to tell me that 3-4 5pc set bonuses are worse than it used to be? Facts are saying something completly different. Even for PvE vampire can be amazing, how?

Just an example.
Stay at stage 2 and use seducer or alteration mastery to negate cost increase. For the loss of spell damage from using sustain set, you will recieve strike from shadows passive (300 spell damage - almost like julianos) another 660 spell damage (of GCD) to create burst windows (so in general you can get 960!!!! spell damage from being vampire, more than any set can give - you can sacrifice some recovery to get this).

Do vampires need tweaks?! Of course they do! Do vamp passives need buffs? Definetly not!. Blood for blood changes was really bad. Instead of drain, it would be nice to get gap closer&aoe on vampires. But new vamp passives are really powerful when compared to old ones, thats a fact. Thats why there is that cost increase. If you want everyone to run vampires please be my guest...

Dark stalker. - this does very little unless you do a lot of stealth
Strike from shadow - still not that great a perk and not worth the drawbacks
Undeath - Again still not worth the drawbacks especially as you lose health regeneration and abilities cost more and all the abilities are pretty much useless

And yes you can use gearing to lower cost of abilities...or you could do something far better with gearing without vampirism.

It's not about everyone running vampires it's about the fact that vampires are so bad there's no logical reason to play one now. And no, vampires are not more powerful they're far worse than they've ever been. [snip] They're so terrible there's really no reason to play one any more.

You do a lot of stealth in Cyrodiil/IC. 300 spell/weapon damage is great buff very similar to NMA as the cost increase at stage 2 is only 5%. Undeath - Constant minor up to major protection that stacks with every other source of protection is bad? Lol Health regen? Somehow I can't see health regen as a must have for endgame PvE or even PvP, most players run with 300-400 hp recovery either way so don't tell me its a big deal. Numbers my friend, numbers is what matters, not blank statements "VAMPIRES ARE DEAD" - TBF they are undead and kicking, just not the way they used to.

EDIT:
...and about gearing. Yes you can use other stuff but in the end what matters the most is stats density, and there is no set that can give you so much benefits.

Vampires shouldn't be mandatory like they used to be. Now if you want to be a vampire you do it intentionally for certain benefits while sacrificing something else, less important for you. If vampire doesnt fit your needs, don't become one.

"You do a lot of stealth in Cyrodiil/IC." I don't know where you've been in cyrodil but no you don't unless you're a ganker and in a fight that won't help you much also lacks any help in pvp.

" 5%. Undeath - Constant minor up to major protection that stacks with every other source of protection is bad? " not worth the costs.

"Health regen? Somehow I can't see health regen as a must have for endgame PvE or even PvP, most players run with 300-400 hp recovery either way so don't tell me its a big deal. Numbers my friend, numbers is what matters, not blank statements "VAMPIRES ARE DEAD" - TBF they are undead and kicking, just not the way they used to"

Yes because somehow a few stealth passives make you UBER POWER VAMPIRE despite having a *** skill line and non vamp abilities costing more little to none health regeneration and more fire damage so in PVP the very thing you mentioned people can use that against you in fact I'm pretty sure there is a passive for people to do more damage against undead again not helpful for vampire players. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

ZaroktheImmortal

Fact is it's not about them being mandatory they never were. Just now they're not worth playing.

Ratzkifal

I think they should make some of the passives scale with stage. Unnatural movement for example could be happening on lower stages too but with a longer delay. After 6/5/4/3 seconds of sprinting you turn invisible or something.

Blood for Blood also shouldn't negate healing from others completely but reduce incoming healing by a certain amount for the duration. It's just silly to make a spammable that uses health as a resource and then when people are actually using it, they gut it completely so nobody uses it again. Why make it cost health in the first place if you didn't want people to have their healers heal through it?

Mayrael

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The penalties are pretty harsh, but compared to the old vampire line the flame damage penalties are actually far less. That being said I'd take the extra flame damage back if it meant getting rid of that non-vampire cost increase in a heartbeat. Also kinda wish the health regen was more like 0-30-60-90 instead of 10-30-60-100.

old bonus
Still 25% more damage from fire
Health regenerates 75% slower
Vampire abilities cost 21% less

new bonus
-100% health recovery
Flame damage taken +20%
Regular ability cost +12%
Vampire ability cost -24%

seriously i would rather take 5% more fire damage, then 12% cost increase for all other skill line. also the -100% health recovery kinda hurt..

Unpopular opinion here. Yeah... Awesome, but maybe we will compare pros to? Unnatural movement, better undeath, strike from shadows, better dark stalker available from stage 1 (USED TO BE 4!), powerful ultimate, better mist form, now you can use all vampire skills without worrying about stage etc. etc. Being vampire gives a lot of power now, but it requires some dedication and building around it, ITS NO LONGER MANDATORY TO BECOME VAMPIRE, NOW ITS A CHOICE WITH PROS AND CONS! GOOD!

The passives aren't that great, seriously. Undeath is pretty much what we had before. Dark stalker is meh okay if you want to do stealth but you can get the same effect from other things in game. Being able to run and turn invisible is pretty much only good for avoiding enemies if you want to get through an area quicker and the damage boost from coming out of invisibility well...there are far too many downsides. It's not just a choice with pros and cons before it was a choice with pros and cons. Now it's a terrible choice with very few pros and lots of cons.

You sure? Then lets compare them.

Old passives.
Savage feeding. After feeding target is off-balance and stuned for 4s.
Supernatural revcovery. Stage 2 required. 10 % more stam and magicka recovery - the only reason why PvErs used to change into vampires.
Blood ritual. No changes.
Undeath. Stage 3 required. When below 50% the lower your health is the more damage mitigation you get up to 33%.
Unnatural resistance. Reduced health recovery penalty (max. to 50%)
Dark Stalker. Stage 4 required. Ignore movement speed penalty in sneak. 50% faster into sneak at night.


New passives.
Dark stalker. No requirement, just be vampire. Ignore movement speed penalty in sneak. 50% faster into sneak ALL THE TIME - its better version of 5pc set bonus
Strike from shadows. Stage 2 required. After leaving sneak, invisibility or mist form you get 300 spell/weapon damage for 6s - almost like 5pc julianos/hundings rage sets bonus
Blood ritual. No changes.
Undeath. Stage 3 required. Reduces damage taken up to 30% based on missing health. Now scales from 100% hp! 2x time better than the old one!. Its another 5 pc set bonus equivalent!
Unnatural movement. Stage 4 required. 50% sprint cost reduction. Invisibility after 3s of sprint - in PvE nothing special just an utility, but in PvP... oh man!

So you are trying to tell me that 3-4 5pc set bonuses are worse than it used to be? Facts are saying something completly different. Even for PvE vampire can be amazing, how?

Just an example.
Stay at stage 2 and use seducer or alteration mastery to negate cost increase. For the loss of spell damage from using sustain set, you will recieve strike from shadows passive (300 spell damage - almost like julianos) another 660 spell damage (of GCD) to create burst windows (so in general you can get 960!!!! spell damage from being vampire, more than any set can give - you can sacrifice some recovery to get this).

Do vampires need tweaks?! Of course they do! Do vamp passives need buffs? Definetly not!. Blood for blood changes was really bad. Instead of drain, it would be nice to get gap closer&aoe on vampires. But new vamp passives are really powerful when compared to old ones, thats a fact. Thats why there is that cost increase. If you want everyone to run vampires please be my guest...

Dark stalker. - this does very little unless you do a lot of stealth
Strike from shadow - still not that great a perk and not worth the drawbacks
Undeath - Again still not worth the drawbacks especially as you lose health regeneration and abilities cost more and all the abilities are pretty much useless

And yes you can use gearing to lower cost of abilities...or you could do something far better with gearing without vampirism.

It's not about everyone running vampires it's about the fact that vampires are so bad there's no logical reason to play one now. And no, vampires are not more powerful they're far worse than they've ever been. [snip] They're so terrible there's really no reason to play one any more.

You do a lot of stealth in Cyrodiil/IC. 300 spell/weapon damage is great buff very similar to NMA as the cost increase at stage 2 is only 5%. Undeath - Constant minor up to major protection that stacks with every other source of protection is bad? Lol Health regen? Somehow I can't see health regen as a must have for endgame PvE or even PvP, most players run with 300-400 hp recovery either way so don't tell me its a big deal. Numbers my friend, numbers is what matters, not blank statements "VAMPIRES ARE DEAD" - TBF they are undead and kicking, just not the way they used to.

EDIT:
...and about gearing. Yes you can use other stuff but in the end what matters the most is stats density, and there is no set that can give you so much benefits.

Vampires shouldn't be mandatory like they used to be. Now if you want to be a vampire you do it intentionally for certain benefits while sacrificing something else, less important for you. If vampire doesnt fit your needs, don't become one.

"You do a lot of stealth in Cyrodiil/IC." I don't know where you've been in cyrodil but no you don't unless you're a ganker and in a fight that won't help you much also lacks any help in pvp.

" 5%. Undeath - Constant minor up to major protection that stacks with every other source of protection is bad? " not worth the costs.

"Health regen? Somehow I can't see health regen as a must have for endgame PvE or even PvP, most players run with 300-400 hp recovery either way so don't tell me its a big deal. Numbers my friend, numbers is what matters, not blank statements "VAMPIRES ARE DEAD" - TBF they are undead and kicking, just not the way they used to"

Yes because somehow a few stealth passives make you UBER POWER VAMPIRE despite having a *** skill line and non vamp abilities costing more little to none health regeneration and more fire damage so in PVP the very thing you mentioned people can use that against you in fact I'm pretty sure there is a passive for people to do more damage against undead again not helpful for vampire players. [snip]

[snip] Even whole groups are using it and its esential for any small scale/solo players. Have you ever seen running away sorc or warden? Now imagine they can go invisible just like NB while running faster than your unbufed mount.

[snip] it's one of the most powerfull passives you can get, [snip] - every single source of major protection from sets was nerfed not so long ago for a reason.

[snip]

Im not saying vampires are great and all, but thats the point, they shouldn't be. Vampires are great for certain usage built around being vampire, not for everyone who wants to play magicka character.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Mayrael

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think they should make some of the passives scale with stage. Unnatural movement for example could be happening on lower stages too but with a longer delay. After 6/5/4/3 seconds of sprinting you turn invisible or something.

Blood for Blood also shouldn't negate healing from others completely but reduce incoming healing by a certain amount for the duration. It's just silly to make a spammable that uses health as a resource and then when people are actually using it, they gut it completely so nobody uses it again. Why make it cost health in the first place if you didn't want people to have their healers heal through it?

This on the other hand is very interesting and balanced idea. I like it a lot

starlizard70ub17_ESO

The way vampires are set up right now, you either stay at stage 1, using the passives, the 2 decent attacks and a good stun skill to compliment the magic class you're running. The other option is to go full on vampire at stage 4. Vampire is your main class and you pick your "secondary" class and your race based on how it helps your vampire build. There is no in between, no one sits at stages 2 or 3.
So far I don't mind how vampires are right now, but I think the class should be thought out better.

Sephyr

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

They made it so non vampire abilities cost more to make us rely more on vampire abilities then couldn't even make a good ability line except for one ability that they ended up nerfing so badly that pretty much no one uses it any more.

Pretty much this. I deal less damage with Arterial Burst even when at low health and combined with Blood Frenzy than I do with Flame Whip and Blood Frenzy. Not sure what the case is with other classes and spammables but the vampire stuff is looking rather bleak at the moment...

Necro it's sort of neck and neck (no pun). The thing about that though is Arterial Burst doesn't apply status effects where as Ricochet Skull does and you can be ranged. With the resource costs added to the mix, it's just not worth it. Mist Form was the only good thing that came out of the line and that's putting it lightly.

I mean...we had mist form before. The only benefit it got from the changes was getting a toggle.

Yeah, that was my point, I just didn't finish the thought I guess. That's the only thing good that came out of it. Toggle+a small passive that has a short window that doesn't translate well in long PvE fights. That's why I also said it's putting it lightly because even Mist Form isn't as reliable as most think it is.

CoronHR

I like that they expanded vampirism but I don't like how they did it. at all. so, it's unfortunate that it is the way it is and they need to rethink it. for example, one of the skills might be useful for one thing, but then your other skills are class or other abilities, and the penalty is harsh. so why would anyone endure such a penalty for just one skill, other than rp

hakan

i dont get this talk about hp regen. why is it that important? if you dont build for it, its a bad stat already like 300-400. old vampire doesnt change anything in that situation.