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Rapid should unlock first
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Sgrug✭✭✭✭✭yesCant you guys just accept it and move forward???
Under the time you spent here. You could have farm it countless Times 💩
Given this does not impact you, your game-play and the suggested change in other threads to make it level 3 has 0 impact on you, can't you just accept our feedback and move forward? The time you spend here trying to force a play-style on us could be better spent playing the game and advancing your toon.Edited by Sgrug on September 2, 2020 6:59PM5 -
WeerW3ir✭✭✭✭✭
✭noCant you guys just accept it and move forward???
Under the time you spent here. You could have farm it countless Times 💩
Given this does not impact you, your game-play and the suggested change in other threads to make it level 3 has 0 impact on you, can't you just accept our feedback and move forward? The time you spend here trying to force a play-style on us could be better spent playing the game and advancing your toon.
Who said its not impact me too? Beside nobody forcing anything. But lets just say you guys not see the forest, from the tree.
Under the 6 years i learned to move forward and not cry on pity skill changes like this. They changed worse before and im still here...
Man up and stop this. You guys wont reach anything.
Maximum that zos gonna make an another skill different to grant you speed buff.Edited by WeerW3ir on September 2, 2020 7:12PM2 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭yesredspecter23 wrote: »Not getting into how OP tainted their own poll by basing it on their opinion as that is something that does not need to be said.
The question I want to ask is how is moving rapids to a different point in the AvA tree insincere or not candid. It seems Zos was very sincere about moving the skill to a later point. It was a fairly straight forward change even if some would have liked it to stay as it was.
The shady part was the reasoning for the change as well as complete silence on the topic after the community called them out on it.Yes, it is helpful to have vigor earlier, but it's also helpful to have rapids earlier. In the case of alliance war skill lines, the difference is locking a skill behind pvp if it's not unlocked at level 1.
It also looks very suspect to move a mobility ability later in the skill line when it's very helpful to have faster movement in order to unlock it to begin with. All while selling you the ability to negate the need to level the skill line on alts.
I suppose it comes down to how you see it, but I see it as ZOS causing an inconvenience in order to charge players for the solution while remaining absolutely silent on the matter after announcing the implementation. If they wanted vigor to be more accessible, it doesn't automatically mean that rapids needs to be made less accessible. That was a choice they made that has been rather unpopular with a lot of players.
@redspecter23
I never saw their reason. What did they give?
As for the community calling them on it, pretty much all I saw was people complaining because they did not like it. Clearly I missed something on both ends.
I believe in their preview of the changes, they announced Vigor moving to the first slot. At the time, there was no mention of what would happen to Rapids that was already there. It may have been either said directly or implied that they wanted easier access to Vigor. I'd have to dig up that post to be certain, but either way Vigor was moved and Rapids was viewed as collateral damage. The change was to set Vigor up as an easier unlock. What happened to Rapids wasn't considered a negative change so much as it was a necessary (from their perspective) change to allow Vigor to take up the first slot.
If their entire goal was to make Vigor easier to unlock, it in no way requires that Rapids automatically becomes harder to unlock. That was a choice they made for reasons unknown to players. Since they didn't comment after the fact on why it was decided that Rapids was to be made more difficult to acquire, we can only guess. However notice that the entire narrative behind the change was the focus on making Vigor easier to acquire. This is the part they wanted players to focus on.
Players aren't stupid though. We figured out fairly fast that easier Vigor meant harder Rapids once the patch notes went live. Conspiracy theories started and gained momentum as ZOS said nothing about the negative aspect of the swap at all. I don't believe they commented at all after the patch notes, but please someone dig up the post if there is one.
In my experience silence is used when you don't have a solid logical reason for a change. This is of course just my interpretation of what happened. ZOS went silent, pushed through an unnecessary change for purely monetary reasons. There is absolutely no game balance reason that Rapids needed to be moved to a higher rank. There is absolutely no game balance reason to remove access to it for players that had already unlocked it as they had never done this before with other abilities that had shifted locations on the skill trees.
If their narrative is to be believed, they wanted Vigor to be easier to access, moving it to the first slot. Fair enough. That makes logical game design sense. They wanted players to have access to a heal faster.
Why not also keep Rapids easy to acquire? Why add this negative aspect if the entire goal was to create a positive change for Vigor? Rapids could have also remained a level 1 unlock, or a level 3 unlock or swapped with siege shield or moved to World skill line at level 1. There are many, many ways to move Vigor to slot one without changing when you access Rapids, so why add the negative element when you don't have to?4 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭noIt was a complete logical choice to make this change.
Vigor is a requirement for Builds and is a must have for some characters. Rapid on the other hand is just convenience. You will not get issues making a build just because you dont have Rapid.
What ppl have to realize is that this change aims for newer players and PvE players that had issues getting the skill and now have an easier time getting it.
The forums are mostly populated by senior players and for them the change is mostly inconvenient. They end up with more characters using rapid than they use Vigor on so it is more convenient to farm AP on some for Vigor than it is to farm AP on all for Rapid.
Now we have this "discussion" going on where ppl spinning their little theories and made up their minds already and realy wonder why the Devs dont say anything about it because it would just be a waste of time.
And again there was always a heal for new players, use the resto. Low levels are not even around long.
AND to REPEAT OVER AND OVER
NO ONE IS SUGGESTING TO TAKE AWAY VIGOR. Posters just want rapids moved to level 3 or swapped with the support line or in the case of those who had it previously just grandfather it.
This poll is the result of the frustration of the Devs not listening to feedback on the previous non impacting solutions
Restro staff is an odd suggestion especially when counting in that Vigor is a Stamina Option while Restro is pure Magicka. Im not sure what you want to imply with "Low Levels are not around long".
What ppl want depends on the different ppl, some want it swapped back, others want to move it around. The way they did it was still the most logical choice. It didnt effect any other skills.
This poll is the result of the frustration because ppl cannot accept that their feedback is not producing the expected results. Thats always visible when changes happen that senior players dont agree with.0 -
PizzaCat82✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭yesI have been farming it this week. It sucks.
I can't reach farms or resources before they are already captured (by my team)
I can't outrun those wanting to kill me already on horseback (thank god for cloak)
The trade off is that I can stam heal on my Magblade?
Yeah. About that.5 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭noDarcyMardin wrote: »
Take 2 steps back and take a minute to think about what you would expect from a decision maker to tell you that would actually cool you down in a situation like that where you dont like the decision they made. There is a big chance that you will not like what they would tell you and they way you feel will be the same. Thats the exact reason why they dont say anything because the situation would not cool down and it would just be a waste of time. Thats also the reason why game devs dont interact with players directly anymore.1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »marius_buys wrote: »A new character at level 10 has had only 1 day to train their horse, this prevents players from keeping up with a group in Cyrodiil.
I've never used Rapids, but isn't it a group buff?
Yes it is. That is a very good point. You will benefit from someone in the group using the skill as much as you would if you used it yourself.
By similar logic you could say the same about Vigor. You don't need it yourself, just stand near someone using Echoing Vigor and you'll get the same effect as you would if you used it yourself.
Except that we were addressing the point made by the OP that without someone using Rapids themselves they would fall behind their group, and that isn't the case if Rapids is a group buff. Other than, of course, if a lowbie's mount training is below the rest of the group - but isn't that the case regardless of whether the lowbie casts Rapids or has it cast on them? Moreover, everyone in the group is on the same side, isn't it for the leader to make sure that everyone keeps up and to look out for a lowbie in the group? That was certainly the case in my grouping days, both in PvE and PvP.3 -
caperb✭✭✭✭✭
✭noredspecter23 wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »marius_buys wrote: »A new character at level 10 has had only 1 day to train their horse, this prevents players from keeping up with a group in Cyrodiil.
I've never used Rapids, but isn't it a group buff?
Yes it is. That is a very good point. You will benefit from someone in the group using the skill as much as you would if you used it yourself.
By similar logic you could say the same about Vigor. You don't need it yourself, just stand near someone using Echoing Vigor and you'll get the same effect as you would if you used it yourself.
Except that we were addressing the point made by the OP that without someone using Rapids themselves they would fall behind their group, and that isn't the case if Rapids is a group buff. Other than, of course, if a lowbie's mount training is below the rest of the group - but isn't that the case regardless of whether the lowbie casts Rapids or has it cast on them? Moreover, everyone in the group is on the same side, isn't it for the leader to make sure that everyone keeps up and to look out for a lowbie in the group? That was certainly the case in my grouping days, both in PvE and PvP.
The rapid buff is quite short compared to the distances you have to ride sometimes, so yes a lowbie alt will fall behind very fast. And in such groups players are usually already bad enough and easy targets anyway. Goal is to do a siege quickly, not wait for all eternity until a decent opponent has arrived. If such a lowbie alt wants to profit from the AP gained, he can hop on, but nobody is gonna wait for 5+ minutes until he or she is there.Edited by caperb on September 2, 2020 8:14PM0 -
PizzaCat82✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭yesThe most interesting thing is all the lvl 4 assault characters I have who can use rapids.
So they either goofed and left that on, or could have just those who unlocked the skill keep using it but decided that actively taking it away was the better option.
So it wasn't even a technical limitation. They could have let everyone who already unlocked it keep it. They just chose not to.3 -
Thechuckage✭✭✭✭✭noThechuckage wrote: »Thechuckage wrote: »If you want to PVE on stamina you need vigor, but don't really need rapids.
If you want to PVP you'll unlock rapids soon enough anyway. Definitely sooner than PVE-er who never even wanted to PVP would unlock vigor before.
No you did not need Vigor, many posters have already attested to that. Plus just use a resto staff then until you can get it. Really no diff execpt noe rapids takes it's place and ther eis no real solution to it other than grinding it.
Resto? On stamina? Am I missing something?
Also didn't find where someone said that one doesn't need vigor, would you kindly throw a link to a comment or two?
If you did not see the multiple comments about vigor not being needed in these threads I am not going to do your work for you. I have seen both those saying it is needed and those saying it is not. I am of the opinion it is not needed as much as most who want it say it is.
As for resto yes, I know it is magicka, so? It heals not much different than magika users relying on sta to run, use to be horrible but magika users lived with it then.
why dont the mag users just have a supply of speed pots to run fast? Actually that would be less disruptive than giving up an entire bar for healing, as opposed to a single slot (vigor)Thechuckage wrote: »If you want to PVE on stamina you need vigor, but don't really need rapids.
If you want to PVP you'll unlock rapids soon enough anyway. Definitely sooner than PVE-er who never even wanted to PVP would unlock vigor before.
No you did not need Vigor, many posters have already attested to that. Plus just use a resto staff then until you can get it. Really no diff execpt noe rapids takes it's place and ther eis no real solution to it other than grinding it.
Resto? On stamina? Am I missing something?
Also didn't find where someone said that one doesn't need vigor, would you kindly throw a link to a comment or two?
If you did not see the multiple comments about vigor not being needed in these threads I am not going to do your work for you. I have seen both those saying it is needed and those saying it is not. I am of the opinion it is not needed as much as most who want it say it is.
As for resto yes, I know it is magicka, so? It heals not much different than magika users relying on sta to run, use to be horrible but magika users lived with it then.
why dont the mag users just have a supply of speed pots to run fast? Actually that would be less disruptive than giving up an entire bar for healing, as opposed to a single slot (vigor)
Why don't sta users have an endless supply of heal potions available? Seriously the issue is not about consumables and consumables are not the answer, otherwise my statement about heal pots would have been a reason not to even change things to begin with.
The same reason heal posts were not the answer to Vigor is the same reason sped pots are not the answer to rapids.
My point was that giving up a backbar weapon is unfeasible esp when there is a single slot skill that will do the job. Stam players nerfing themselves is not reasonable suggestion.
No one is asking sta to get nerfed or to change Vigor back, All posters are asking for is to make Rapids easier to get, level 3 for example. Or move it to the support line, or have grandfathered it for those who already had it and used it for 6 years. How do these points keep getting ignored?
I fail to see how speed pots have anything to do with this in the context of the posted threads on this issue
I brought up speed pots as a bad workaround for speed. Kind of like saying stam chars can use a resto staff.
Mag using speed pots - dumb / Stam using resto staff - dumb. And I am well aware of all the ideas floated from the forums. Now how exactly are we forum dwellers supposed to implement them? Oh thats right, its the devs call.
What we can do is offer solutions are critique other peoples solutions. Resto staff on a stam player is a rock bottom poor solution.1 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭noRapids is a luxury ... not a necessity.
We're not talking about Undaunted Mettle, here, which is a necessity and much harder to get.1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »marius_buys wrote: »A new character at level 10 has had only 1 day to train their horse, this prevents players from keeping up with a group in Cyrodiil.
I've never used Rapids, but isn't it a group buff?
Yes it is. That is a very good point. You will benefit from someone in the group using the skill as much as you would if you used it yourself.
By similar logic you could say the same about Vigor. You don't need it yourself, just stand near someone using Echoing Vigor and you'll get the same effect as you would if you used it yourself.
Except that we were addressing the point made by the OP that without someone using Rapids themselves they would fall behind their group, and that isn't the case if Rapids is a group buff. Other than, of course, if a lowbie's mount training is below the rest of the group - but isn't that the case regardless of whether the lowbie casts Rapids or has it cast on them? Moreover, everyone in the group is on the same side, isn't it for the leader to make sure that everyone keeps up and to look out for a lowbie in the group? That was certainly the case in my grouping days, both in PvE and PvP.
The rapid buff is quite short compared to the distances you have to ride sometimes, so yes a lowbie alt will fall behind very fast. And in such groups players are usually already bad enough and easy targets anyway. Goal is to do a siege quickly, not wait for all eternity until a decent opponent has arrived. If such a lowbie alt wants to profit from the AP gained, he can hop on, but nobody is gonna wait for 5+ minutes until he or she is there.
Understood. However, the lowbie is going to fall behind either way, whether he casts Rapids or relies on someone in the group casting it - because either way his mount training is low and his speed is also therefore below the group's speed.3 -
esotoon✭✭✭✭✭
✭other I will explain in commentsExcept that we were addressing the point made by the OP that without someone using Rapids themselves they would fall behind their group, and that isn't the case if Rapids is a group buff.
This isn't true. Rapids hits a max of 12 players and also has a limited range, so having someone using rapids in a group doesn't guarantee you will get the buff.
3 -
Sgrug✭✭✭✭✭yesTaleof2Cities wrote: »Rapids is a luxury ... not a necessity.
We're not talking about Undaunted Mettle, here, which is a necessity and much harder to get.
Undaunted mettle should be a PvE skill only. It is a dungeon skill and does not belong in PvP. At least that is the position of several against making rapids a little easier to get than it is now mostly are taking om rapids.2 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭yesTaleof2Cities wrote: »Rapids is a luxury ... not a necessity.
We're not talking about Undaunted Mettle, here, which is a necessity and much harder to get.
But what if they made it so that Undaunted Mettle required level 20 Undaunted to unlock and then removed it from all your toons that had already unlocked it. It's not about whether it's a necessity or not. It's about moving the goalpost without reasons given for that change.
Leaving Vigor out of the discussion for a moment, ZOS never mentioned why Rapids needed to be moved to later in the tree and create a situation where players need to refarm it on multiple toons.1 -
Defilted✭✭✭✭✭
✭other I will explain in commentsDo not care either way.XBOX NA
XBOX Series X
#NightmareBear0 -
Thechuckage✭✭✭✭✭noredspecter23 wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »Rapids is a luxury ... not a necessity.
We're not talking about Undaunted Mettle, here, which is a necessity and much harder to get.
(snipped by me)
Leaving Vigor out of the discussion for a moment, ZOS never mentioned why Rapids needed to be moved to later in the tree and create a situation where players need to refarm it on multiple toons.
I would think because it would be a huge pain to move a skill from one tree to another. I doubt you could find someone who thinks ESO has good coding, let alone great. Maybe it would completely break something - very likely in my unlearned opinion, just from how much has been broken with "fixes" over the years.
Of course we dont know. Because the people who do know have not told us. While that is their right, I feel the clear target of ire and frustration has one clear target.....and it not any of the other players.
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esotoon✭✭✭✭✭
✭other I will explain in commentsThechuckage wrote: »I would think because it would be a huge pain to move a skill from one tree to another. I doubt you could find someone who thinks ESO has good coding, let alone great. Maybe it would completely break something - very likely in my unlearned opinion, just from how much has been broken with "fixes" over the years.
Making Rapids unlock at Rank 2, and Vigor 3, shouldn't require any changing of skills slots, and should be well within even ZOS's capabilities I would have thought.Of course we dont know. Because the people who do know have not told us. While that is their right, I feel the clear target of ire and frustration has one clear target.....and it not any of the other players.
Agreed.
Edited by esotoon on September 2, 2020 11:13PM2 -
JoeCapricorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭yesThe easiest and probably the best solution is to undo the change entirely, then change the requirements for Vigor to Assault 3.
Another alternative is to change the requirements to Rapids to Assault 2, allowing it to be unlocked immediately after obtaining the skill line.
My personal condition for my subscription to be restored is for the skill to be available to put back on the bars of all of my alts without any additional effort. I am unlikely to change my mind.I simp for vampire lords and Glemyos Wildhorn4 -
MagicalLija✭✭✭✭✭other I will explain in commentsAt this point, they should just make it so both unlock at level 1 then problem solved tbh.4 -
ZOS_GregoryVmodGreetings all,
As there is a much more active thread in regards to this same subject, we ask that all members continue to post here.
Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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