Rapid should unlock first

marius_buys

It is disingenuous to unlock Rapid Maneuver at Rank 5.
A new character at level 10 has had only 1 day to train their horse, this prevents players from keeping up with a group in Cyrodiil.
This is effectively a paywall to any new PvP player...

Insert from caperb
A low level alt with rapids can easily unlock vigor since it can get to AP ticks in time.
A low level alt with rapids can not easily unlock vigor since it will miss the AP ticks.
A low level alt without vigor will not miss it since battle level scaling will make class heals as good as vigor below level 50.

Alienoutlaw

yes

enter group mounts stage left

Sgrug

yes

It was only a matter of time before this became a binary choice, this could have been an "and" solution but instead the Devs chose to divide the player base and cause this strife and now here we are, posters proposing and either or solution wich will only cause even more anger on these boards.

This grief is solely on the shoulders of ZOS for allowing this issue to fester needlessly.

AuraNebula

other I will explain in comments

It does not take that long to level up in pvp. Yes your horse may be slow and yes being slow is annoying. However most people do not want to even give pvp a chance, they die and get t-bagged and they shun the whole experience. I hope this makes people actually want to try pvp builds and break into pvp. I used to primarily play pve and slowly started to get more into Cyrodiil and now I mainly pvp. Also i still die a lot and i still get t-bagged but so what? It is just a game, learn from your mistakes and get better and you'll have a good time.

Sgrug

yes

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

It does not take that long to level up in pvp. Yes your horse may be slow and yes being slow is annoying. However most people do not want to even give pvp a chance, they die and get t-bagged and they shun the whole experience. I hope this makes people actually want to try pvp builds and break into pvp. I used to primarily play pve and slowly started to get more into Cyrodiil and now I mainly pvp. Also i still die a lot and i still get t-bagged but so what? It is just a game, learn from your mistakes and get better and you'll have a good time.

While I do not disagree this exact same sentiment can be said of Vigor before this change. As such it makes the change pointless.

SilverBride

no

I voted "no", but would change my vote to "yes" IF it was only usable in Cyrodiil.

redspecter23

yes

Rapids is so universally useful, they should just take it out of alliance war skills, put it in the world skills and have it an auto unlock at level 1.

SilverBride

no

redspecter23 wrote: »

Rapids is so universally useful, they should just take it out of alliance war skills, put it in the world skills and have it an auto unlock at level 1.

This would totally negate having to level your mount. I don't think they are going to do that.

Sgrug

yes

SilverBride wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Rapids is so universally useful, they should just take it out of alliance war skills, put it in the world skills and have it an auto unlock at level 1.

This would totally negate having to level your mount. I don't think they are going to do that.

LOL this is the first time I think I have agreed with you on anything related to this subject

SilverBride

no

Sgrug wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Rapids is so universally useful, they should just take it out of alliance war skills, put it in the world skills and have it an auto unlock at level 1.

This would totally negate having to level your mount. I don't think they are going to do that.

LOL this is the first time I think I have agreed with you on anything related to this subject

Stranger things have happened.

Alienoutlaw

yes

the simplest solution for this whole mess that would of pleased both the PvP players and the PvE players would of been to move rapids to a "world skill" like soul trap or ledgerman is it could have been levelled equally in both types of play. the other solution was to simple give everyone both at the drop of the patch meaning those that had not earned vigor did not loose out on rapids. it seems unfair on the players that choose not to play PvP to loose skill many have had for yrs.

just my 2 cents

esotoon

other I will explain in comments

As ZOS refuse to do what they said they were going to do (rework all class skill lines, so each class has a DPS/Heal/Tank Skill line like the Necro and Wardens do, and include in that early level Stamina Heals), then I think people should get Vigor earlier.

However, they could do this without affecting anyone by leaving Rapids where it was and swapping Vigor with Siege Shield.

This way players would unlock both Rapids and Vigor early. Siege Shield being harder to get would affect no one. It is rare to see siege shields used in Cyrodiil, and those who do use them tend to be more experienced PVPers who are part of a guild group, so will have no issues unlocking the skill.

Hapexamendios

esotoon wrote: »

However, they could do this without affecting anyone by leaving Rapids where it was and swapping Vigor with Siege Shield.

What he/she said

Gythral

yes

But Vigor isnt in the crown store ....

Kiralyn2000

other I will explain in comments

<elsa>Let it goooooooo......</elsa>

kmcaj

yes

I didn't think this change would bug me but playing after update on PS4 today I found out that I was very wrong. This is miserable playing on newer toons. Just ended up logging off after trying to travel across vvardenfell.

AuraNebula

other I will explain in comments

Sgrug wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

It does not take that long to level up in pvp. Yes your horse may be slow and yes being slow is annoying. However most people do not want to even give pvp a chance, they die and get t-bagged and they shun the whole experience. I hope this makes people actually want to try pvp builds and break into pvp. I used to primarily play pve and slowly started to get more into Cyrodiil and now I mainly pvp. Also i still die a lot and i still get t-bagged but so what? It is just a game, learn from your mistakes and get better and you'll have a good time.

While I do not disagree this exact same sentiment can be said of Vigor before this change. As such it makes the change pointless.

Yes and no. Every class can use rapid. Vigor is only used by stamnia characters making it not as wanted as rapids.

Thechuckage

no

It should be removed entirely, with mount speed being reworked. Being able to run faster than your unleveled mount is ridiculous.

idk

other I will explain in comments

Not getting into how OP tainted their own poll by basing it on their opinion as that is something that does not need to be said.

The question I want to ask is how is moving rapids to a different point in the AvA tree insincere or not candid. It seems Zos was very sincere about moving the skill to a later point. It was a fairly straight forward change even if some would have liked it to stay as it was.

redspecter23

yes

SilverBride wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Rapids is so universally useful, they should just take it out of alliance war skills, put it in the world skills and have it an auto unlock at level 1.

This would totally negate having to level your mount. I don't think they are going to do that.

So giving it at level 10 when you likely only have a handful of mount levels trained is all good, but giving it right away negates the entire thing? I'm not understanding the logic of your well thought out counterargument.

You do realize that mount speed stacks with rapids, right?

redspecter23

yes

idk wrote: »

Not getting into how OP tainted their own poll by basing it on their opinion as that is something that does not need to be said.

The question I want to ask is how is moving rapids to a different point in the AvA tree insincere or not candid. It seems Zos was very sincere about moving the skill to a later point. It was a fairly straight forward change even if some would have liked it to stay as it was.

The shady part was the reasoning for the change as well as complete silence on the topic after the community called them out on it.

Yes, it is helpful to have vigor earlier, but it's also helpful to have rapids earlier. In the case of alliance war skill lines, the difference is locking a skill behind pvp if it's not unlocked at level 1.

It also looks very suspect to move a mobility ability later in the skill line when it's very helpful to have faster movement in order to unlock it to begin with. All while selling you the ability to negate the need to level the skill line on alts.

I suppose it comes down to how you see it, but I see it as ZOS causing an inconvenience in order to charge players for the solution while remaining absolutely silent on the matter after announcing the implementation. If they wanted vigor to be more accessible, it doesn't automatically mean that rapids needs to be made less accessible. That was a choice they made that has been rather unpopular with a lot of players.

SilverBride

no

redspecter23 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Rapids is so universally useful, they should just take it out of alliance war skills, put it in the world skills and have it an auto unlock at level 1.

This would totally negate having to level your mount. I don't think they are going to do that.

So giving it at level 10 when you likely only have a handful of mount levels trained is all good, but giving it right away negates the entire thing? I'm not understanding the logic of your well thought out counterargument.

You do realize that mount speed stacks with rapids, right?

A lot of people got rapids for mules, crafters, gatherers, and never trained their mount speed up. If these people don't level their mount speed, and more and more follow suit (because everyone has rapids at level 1 with no effort at all) it soon loses its purpose.

They want leveling your character and your mounts to take time. It keeps you in the game longer.

AlnilamE

other I will explain in comments

They should both unlock at the same time.

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

It does not take that long to level up in pvp. Yes your horse may be slow and yes being slow is annoying. However most people do not want to even give pvp a chance, they die and get t-bagged and they shun the whole experience. I hope this makes people actually want to try pvp builds and break into pvp. I used to primarily play pve and slowly started to get more into Cyrodiil and now I mainly pvp. Also i still die a lot and i still get t-bagged but so what? It is just a game, learn from your mistakes and get better and you'll have a good time.

I'm not going to make PvP gear for characters that are not EP. I will try to make the experience as fun as possible for my guildies, but no, they are not coming back after they unlock rapids on all their characters, unless it's to do the PvE part.

SilverBride wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Rapids is so universally useful, they should just take it out of alliance war skills, put it in the world skills and have it an auto unlock at level 1.

This would totally negate having to level your mount. I don't think they are going to do that.

Rapids does not negate mount training. 30% speed increase is very different on a level 1 mount than it is on a level 60 mount.

SilverBride wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Rapids is so universally useful, they should just take it out of alliance war skills, put it in the world skills and have it an auto unlock at level 1.

This would totally negate having to level your mount. I don't think they are going to do that.

So giving it at level 10 when you likely only have a handful of mount levels trained is all good, but giving it right away negates the entire thing? I'm not understanding the logic of your well thought out counterargument.

You do realize that mount speed stacks with rapids, right?

A lot of people got rapids for mules, crafters, gatherers, and never trained their mount speed up. If these people don't level their mount speed, and more and more follow suit (because everyone has rapids at level 1 with no effort at all) it soon loses its purpose.

They want leveling your character and your mounts to take time. It keeps you in the game longer.

Is that what you did? Because all my characters have maxed out their mounts, and my guildies who are alt-holics are very dedicated about training riding skills. So I will assume you are speaking for yourself.

idk

other I will explain in comments

redspecter23 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Not getting into how OP tainted their own poll by basing it on their opinion as that is something that does not need to be said.

The question I want to ask is how is moving rapids to a different point in the AvA tree insincere or not candid. It seems Zos was very sincere about moving the skill to a later point. It was a fairly straight forward change even if some would have liked it to stay as it was.

The shady part was the reasoning for the change as well as complete silence on the topic after the community called them out on it.

Yes, it is helpful to have vigor earlier, but it's also helpful to have rapids earlier. In the case of alliance war skill lines, the difference is locking a skill behind pvp if it's not unlocked at level 1.

It also looks very suspect to move a mobility ability later in the skill line when it's very helpful to have faster movement in order to unlock it to begin with. All while selling you the ability to negate the need to level the skill line on alts.

I suppose it comes down to how you see it, but I see it as ZOS causing an inconvenience in order to charge players for the solution while remaining absolutely silent on the matter after announcing the implementation. If they wanted vigor to be more accessible, it doesn't automatically mean that rapids needs to be made less accessible. That was a choice they made that has been rather unpopular with a lot of players.

@redspecter23

I never saw their reason. What did they give?

As for the community calling them on it, pretty much all I saw was people complaining because they did not like it. Clearly I missed something on both ends.

Fur_like_snow

no

Make it rank 10.

AinSoph

yes

I recently got Rapids back on my Magblade, the problem is is that that Magblade had 60 mount speed and STILL could not catch up. If you say you've never had to use Rapids before, you clearly don't understand how absolutely annoying it to lose something like that.

SilverBride

no

AlnilamE wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A lot of people got rapids for mules, crafters, gatherers, and never trained their mount speed up.

Is that what you did? ... I will assume you are speaking for yourself.

You assume wrong. I have never used rapids on any character, ever. I don't think it should be use outside of Cyrodiil.

SilverBride

no

Sorry this keeps making new posts when I try to edit.

colossalvoids

yes

As a universal skill and also an early mobility tool 100% yes.

caperb

no

Oops, meant to choose another poll option.

We've had this discussion before, with a poll too. Back then it was about 2/3 of 100's players that wanted rapids to be first (not exactly 2/3 but if you read the comments most who chose other were in favour of rapids).

A low level alt with rapids can easily unlock vigor since it can get to AP ticks in time.
A low level alt with rapids can not easily unlock vigor since it will miss the AP ticks.
A low level alt without vigor will not miss it since battle level scaling will make class heals as good as vigor below level 50.

Edit: and if you don't have them both unlocked past level 50 and you are willingly choosing not to level the AvA skillines, then why even bother to comment?

Tandor

marius_buys wrote: »

A new character at level 10 has had only 1 day to train their horse, this prevents players from keeping up with a group in Cyrodiil.

I've never used Rapids, but isn't it a group buff?