What do you think about being vampire?

TX12001rwb17_ESO

SlimeBro1 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

carlos424 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Well the Blood Scion Ultimate is the strongest Ultimate in the game, even if you stay at stage 1 this Ultimate alone is worth being a Vampire, do people forget that it grants 10,000 extra magicka and stamina? do you forget that damage scales off of how high your stats are? with the swarming scion morph for 20 seconds I might as well be wielding Volendrung.

Sure, the blood scion ultimate is nice, but is it worth the extra cost for all abilities, the increased flame damage taken? For me the answer is no. I only use blood scion in pvp anyway.

Honestly it is worth it, for me the flame damage is not even there given i have more then enough CP allocated in the Flame Resistance plus my Vampire is a Dunmer.

Let's say for a moment that Blood Scion is indeed the best ult in the game.

Does it justify all of the negatives of being a vampire + the fact it is now the literal only useful thing in the skill line out of 6 abilities?

My point is even IF the ultimate is the best thing since sliced bread, that's 1/6 abilities in the skill line. Does this 1 ability being good suddenly make the skill line not trash? No. No it doesn't. And it doesn't make vampire good either.

Given how the downsides for Vampirism are actually quite small at stage 1, yeah it is worth it.

Think about it, CP alone gets rid of the weakness to fire up to stage 3, being a Dunmer with CP gets rid of it entirely, the increased cost at stage 1 is barley noticeable and even at stage 4 its only a 12% increase, if a spell costs 2000 then that only brings the cost up to around 2200 which is a very minor increase, as for Health Regeneration, it never really mattered.

VioletDracolich

The vampire skill line is the ultimate test of risk management in the game. People who are too busy looking at the seemingly overwhelming downsides won't be able to see the fact that the skill line basically gives you at minimum 960 spell/weapon damage! That's huge! It's basically a skill line version of New Moon Acolyte, which just about everyone thinks is really good, even after the recent nerfs. In fact, most of the downsides of being a vampire are not as bad as everyone makes them out to be. In fact, here are all the downsides and the reasons why they aren't that bad:

• Lower Health Recovery. (Max 100% less)
  News flash, this was one of the original downsides of being a vampire! While the changes made it worse, you can still mitigate this by using healing skills. Honestly not the worse downside considering that fact.
• Extra Flame Damage Taken. (Max 20% extra)
  I honestly forgot about this. Here's the thing, you barely notice if you're stage 3 or higher, which for my vampire I am, because we take 30% less damage, based on our missing health, because of one of our passives. Not only that, but most fire you encounter in PvE are AoE effects, which you shouldn't be standing in the first place. As for PvP? IDK I don't PvP much.
• Increased Ability Cost. (Max +12% extra)
  Okay yeah, this one kinda sucks. That said, it's similar to New Moon Acolyte in terms of downside. That said, this is not as bad when you consider the fact it doesn't apply to vampire skills at all, and vampire skill costs are reduced up to 24%. Considering that 4 out of 6 of these skills an't bad, that's actually pretty good.

Now as for the recent Blood for Blood nerfs, well they aren't that bad. Honestly, the recent change hurts healers more than vampires honestly. The truth is vampires who know what they're doing usually overheal in the first place, kinda reducing the use of a healer to a vampire. In fact, in most DLC dungeons healers are almost completely optional considering the fact of all the instant death mechs found in just about all of them. Ultimately, the change will go almost completely unseen by any vampire worth their salt.

So yeah, the vampire skill line is still worth it in my opinion. It's only a matter of how much risk do you want out of your gameplay and your level of expertise in the game. It is a powerful skill line, but if you only want it for one or two passives or abilities, then you're not playing vampire right honestly. It's a unique experience for players to invest time into, and give them an opportunity to enjoy. You don't become a vampire to round out your build, you become a vampire to make a vampire build.

Also to address a common complaint I see: The Supernatural Recovery Passive was overrated and kinda weak. It was a good passive, but it's lost doesn't actually change much for any role. If you "had to have it" for your sustain, then honestly I don't feel for your loss.

VioletDracolich

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun wrote: »

Vampires before weren't really much of anything, so I figured they had nowhere to go but up. Boy, was I wrong about that. I feel confident in saying that the vampire rework might actually be one of the worst reworks in any game I've ever played. And I guess at no point in the development process did anyone remember that Tanks and Healers still play the game. Or they just figured that people who enjoyed that playstyle for years can screw off with the new changes. Not sure which is worse.

At best, they're extremely niche (in a game where flexibility/customization is supposed to be one of it's strong points...).

Grianasteri wrote: »

The key is outhealing the debuff, so that the skill stays on longer

"Just outheal the damage" isn't the revelation you think it is.

How does one go about healing damage that scales every second, anyway?

I do have to agree that vampire is a niche, a very fun niche at that. Honestly, smart Tanks and Healers can figure out how to use the skills to their advantage. For example! Healing is based on multiple factors, like your Spell/Weapon damage, usually spell, maximum magicka or stamina, usually magicka, and so on. Noticed that fact that the vampire skill line gives you both of those factors and more?

Also, the out healing the damage of the skill is pretty easy actually. My set up in particular, which mostly focuses on increased risk in exchange for lower cost, usually allows me to have the skill up to about 40 seconds no problems. This is surprisingly long, and if combined with the Blood Scion transformation can easily cause a massive burn to most enemies in Dungeons and Trails alike. Not only that but Blood Mist, one of the new mist form morphs, is insane in terms of healing, especially when there are multiple enemies in a group.

WARchief10K

I think........

<transforms>

BLARGH!!!! blarghhh! blarghghghrhg!

Artim_X

I personally dislike all the active skills for PvE. In PvP mist can be a nice escape tool, but the revamp made it less reliable in a laggy environment so even though it looks better on paper it can get you killed when in an actual fight.

Only thing I really like is the feeding animations when biting NPCs. Besides that probably best to stay at stage 1 for all content.

SilverBride

VioletDracolich wrote: »

You don't become a vampire to round out your build, you become a vampire to make a vampire build.

That was a very good post. It was great to read something positive about something I really love. But that line really stood out for me. Thank you.

VioletDracolich

zvavi wrote: »

More high costs no rewards. While you probably can run b4b in dungeons it is bad design, leaving healers out and stuff.

Three words: Instant Death Mechanics. Most of the DLCs have them basically making healers optional, and even a hindrance in some cases. Even good healers can't heal IDMs, but will still get blamed for it happening. Vampires aren't the reason healers are being left out of dungeons, it's the dungeons themselves.

fierackas

SilverBride wrote: »

fierackas wrote: »

Hopefully they will make it non-pvp only

Why is that?

I was just following your thoughts on rapids

Muizer

Vampires are evil parasites that need to be exterminated. That's not just how I feel about being a vampire. It's also how I feel about you being a vampire.

heaven13

josiahva wrote: »

The fact is, most people in this game have zero interest in roleplaying. Most people who play RPGs do not and never have imagined they are the character they are playing. You can enjoy playing in a game in a fantasy setting without trying to believe you are actually in that fantasy.

I won't speak for everyone because people do different things but when I play RPGs, I "roleplay" as the character. My characters each have their own background and personality and morals. I'm not playing myself in a fantasy setting, I'm making decisions and playing from the perspective of the character. This is something I greatly enjoy in most games and it greatly increases replayability for me (I have 6 Commander Shepards, at least 7 wardens from DA:O, and 6 Inquisitors for example; most haven't made it past the in-my-brain stage because I play a lot of ESO instead but they're still there).

TX12001rwb17_ESO

VioletDracolich wrote: »

The vampire skill line is the ultimate test of risk management in the game. People who are too busy looking at the seemingly overwhelming downsides won't be able to see the fact that the skill line basically gives you at minimum 960 spell/weapon damage! That's huge! It's basically a skill line version of New Moon Acolyte, which just about everyone thinks is really good, even after the recent nerfs. In fact, most of the downsides of being a vampire are not as bad as everyone makes them out to be. In fact, here are all the downsides and the reasons why they aren't that bad:

• Lower Health Recovery. (Max 100% less)
  News flash, this was one of the original downsides of being a vampire! While the changes made it worse, you can still mitigate this by using healing skills. Honestly not the worse downside considering that fact.
• Extra Flame Damage Taken. (Max 20% extra)
  I honestly forgot about this. Here's the thing, you barely notice if you're stage 3 or higher, which for my vampire I am, because we take 30% less damage, based on our missing health, because of one of our passives. Not only that, but most fire you encounter in PvE are AoE effects, which you shouldn't be standing in the first place. As for PvP? IDK I don't PvP much.
• Increased Ability Cost. (Max +12% extra)
  Okay yeah, this one kinda sucks. That said, it's similar to New Moon Acolyte in terms of downside. That said, this is not as bad when you consider the fact it doesn't apply to vampire skills at all, and vampire skill costs are reduced up to 24%. Considering that 4 out of 6 of these skills an't bad, that's actually pretty good.

Now as for the recent Blood for Blood nerfs, well they aren't that bad. Honestly, the recent change hurts healers more than vampires honestly. The truth is vampires who know what they're doing usually overheal in the first place, kinda reducing the use of a healer to a vampire. In fact, in most DLC dungeons healers are almost completely optional considering the fact of all the instant death mechs found in just about all of them. Ultimately, the change will go almost completely unseen by any vampire worth their salt.

So yeah, the vampire skill line is still worth it in my opinion. It's only a matter of how much risk do you want out of your gameplay and your level of expertise in the game. It is a powerful skill line, but if you only want it for one or two passives or abilities, then you're not playing vampire right honestly. It's a unique experience for players to invest time into, and give them an opportunity to enjoy. You don't become a vampire to round out your build, you become a vampire to make a vampire build.

Also to address a common complaint I see: The Supernatural Recovery Passive was overrated and kinda weak. It was a good passive, but it's lost doesn't actually change much for any role. If you "had to have it" for your sustain, then honestly I don't feel for your loss.

Well said, its something a lot of players fail to realize, you also did not to mention how overpowered 20 seconds in the Swarming Scion form is

OmniDo wrote: »

I remain a Vampire for the following reasons:

1. Unnatural Movement + Concealed Weapon = Stealthy-Speedy.
   That coupled with Cowards, and I don't even need to mount anymore.
   (Now if only ZOS would fix their terrain so that I'm not flying over a small dip in the road or catapulting over a small incline and being forced out of stealth...)
2. Dark Stalker + Concealed Weapon = 'scuse me while I slip right past you, kthxbai
3. Undeath for Tank and Healer roles (Less damage is always a good thing)
4. AoE Stun - Great for Tanking

And last but certainly not least, RP.
There is nothing advantageous about being a Mortal.
You grow old, you get sick, you die against your will.
Vampirism at it's very least provides immortality and sufficient potential staying power to survive far longer than the poor mortal fools who are my food.

This is why this game needs things like an expanded disease mechanic that only targets Non-Supernatural Players, Vampires have their own weaknesses to deal with so Mortals should as well, it would only be fair, Vampirism will begin to look more alluring when Mortal characters run the risk of contracting deadly diseases from enemies they encounter.

Maybe a case of Break Bone Fever increases the cost of all stamina abilities by 15% and maybe Witbane does the same but for Magicka, perhaps Rattles reduce your critical chance and perhaps much like Noxiphilix Sanguvoria and Sanius Lupius you need to visit a Priest to get healed.

ManM

VioletDracolich wrote: »

The vampire skill line is the ultimate test of risk management in the game. People who are too busy looking at the seemingly overwhelming downsides won't be able to see the fact that the skill line basically gives you at minimum 960 spell/weapon damage! That's huge! It's basically a skill line version of New Moon Acolyte, which just about everyone thinks is really good, even after the recent nerfs. In fact, most of the downsides of being a vampire are not as bad as everyone makes them out to be.

I just wanted to point out that the +960 spell/weapon damage comes at more of a cost than you are indicating. For starters, your build now has to include enough health and/or self healing to survive frenzy. You also have to blow a slot on your rotation refreshing your strike from the shadows every six seconds. These things represent a sustained DPS loss that is greater than the gain you get from +960 spell/weapon damage. Vampire can front-load damage faster, but after that initial six seconds, vampire will fall behind rather quickly.

You don't become a vampire to round out your build, you become a vampire to make a vampire build.

This is very well said. I think people are mainly upset because vampire builds are not viable for pushing end-game PVE content. Honestly, I suspect that's working as intended.

SilverBride

fierackas wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

fierackas wrote: »

Hopefully they will make it non-pvp only

Why is that?

I was just following your thoughts on rapids

I thought you had a valid reason for your comment, but I guess not.

My opinion on a completely different issue, in completely different threads, has absolutely nothing to do with this one.

josiahva

heaven13 wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

The fact is, most people in this game have zero interest in roleplaying. Most people who play RPGs do not and never have imagined they are the character they are playing. You can enjoy playing in a game in a fantasy setting without trying to believe you are actually in that fantasy.

I won't speak for everyone because people do different things but when I play RPGs, I "roleplay" as the character. My characters each have their own background and personality and morals. I'm not playing myself in a fantasy setting, I'm making decisions and playing from the perspective of the character. This is something I greatly enjoy in most games and it greatly increases replayability for me (I have 6 Commander Shepards, at least 7 wardens from DA:O, and 6 Inquisitors for example; most haven't made it past the in-my-brain stage because I play a lot of ESO instead but they're still there).

And so that justifies taking away useful skill form EVERYONE so that a MINORITY has a better roleplay experience? If you are ok with that...how about we re-vamp the necro skill line so it only has permanent pets as skills so people can roleplay being a necromancer commanding a hoard of undead? Who cares about the people who were playing a necro because of the actual utility spells they bring to the game. Lets make it so templars only have healing spells so people can roleplay being a holy paladin.

Vevvev

This conversation has gone on for a while, but I'll just add another 2 cents.

Stage 4 needs a buff and I've been thinking giving the passive Minor Expedition would help it out a bit. Then it'd actually be useful in a actual fight instead of used just for sprinting efficiency and being invisible with sprint.

Buff Vampiric Drain so that its either a damage dealing skill or a healing skill. Right now the skill does both jobs rather poorly, especially for a channel. Either make it heal a portion of max health, scale up its damage and have it heal for the damage done, or just buff the amount of missing health it heals by a lot! Like for example Green Dragon Blood heals 33% of missing health on cast while Vampiric Drain only heals 23%.

Have Eviscerate function like Soul Trap where it has a Physical and Magic damage side to it. The vampire skill line has several buffs for stamina builds in it, but no way for stamina builds to actually capitalize on those buffs without taking the non-vampire ability sustain hit.

Edit: Also could have Eviscerate and Arterial Burst cost stamina if the physical offensive stats are higher. That way Blood for Blood remains a health cost spammable that stamina and magicka builds can use, while making Eviscerate and Arterial Burst very unique in how they scale.

VioletDracolich

ManM wrote: »

This is very well said. I think people are mainly upset because vampire builds are not viable for pushing end-game PVE content. Honestly, I suspect that's working as intended.

Vampire builds can be very viable in end-game PvE. Granted the problem is the skill needed to use such a build well enough is a different story. I've seen, and played, both well built and poorly built vampires, and well built builds used by experienced players have crushed many dungeons and trials alike! Is it optimized? No. Is it best in slot? No. However, it is viable.

heaven13

josiahva wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

The fact is, most people in this game have zero interest in roleplaying. Most people who play RPGs do not and never have imagined they are the character they are playing. You can enjoy playing in a game in a fantasy setting without trying to believe you are actually in that fantasy.

I won't speak for everyone because people do different things but when I play RPGs, I "roleplay" as the character. My characters each have their own background and personality and morals. I'm not playing myself in a fantasy setting, I'm making decisions and playing from the perspective of the character. This is something I greatly enjoy in most games and it greatly increases replayability for me (I have 6 Commander Shepards, at least 7 wardens from DA:O, and 6 Inquisitors for example; most haven't made it past the in-my-brain stage because I play a lot of ESO instead but they're still there).

And so that justifies taking away useful skill form EVERYONE so that a MINORITY has a better roleplay experience? If you are ok with that...how about we re-vamp the necro skill line so it only has permanent pets as skills so people can roleplay being a necromancer commanding a hoard of undead? Who cares about the people who were playing a necro because of the actual utility spells they bring to the game. Lets make it so templars only have healing spells so people can roleplay being a holy paladin.

What? I didn't say any of that. I didn't touch on how roleplay impacted vampires or vice versa, just pointed out that perhaps you could consider your stance on roleplaying is rather narrow.

Since apparently it matters...I have no vampires. Not before Greymoor, and not after. Playing vampires before U26 felt pointless to me; my sustain was fine enough on its own and I hate the appearance (and the skins in game) so it just wasn't worth it to me for one passive benefit that I could live without.

I was interested in vampire during pre-PTS. Devs hyped up the rework but failed to deliver. To me, it's still not worth slotting because the negatives far outweigh the positives. I might roleplay (in my head, I only do RP stuff in my brain rather than as a group activity) but I do participate in vet endgame content and vampires have no place there.

Regardless of playstyle, no skill line should create such a dilemma between "do I remain vamp or do I do group content". Prior vamp, as boring as it was, at least allowed people to drop stages should fire damage be an issue. Having a cost increase, even at the lowest stage, isn't okay. And sure, if you could create a viable build chock full of vampire skills, the cost increase might be worth it but, as has been pointed out numerous times, that's not the case. Trying to separate the playerbase into neat little boxes of "you're a PvPer", "you're a solo quester", "you're an RPer" "you do endgame PvE" "you're only here for housing" is where they go wrong SO OFTEN. Most everyone I know participate in multiple activities and skill lines and classes should recognize that and attempt to appeal to a multitude of playstyles.

So no. I don't think, regardless of your definition of RP, the current state of vampirism is justified.

If they want vampire (and werewolf) to feel more immersive, maybe they need to expand the skill lines so they behave more like classes. Have 2 skill lines per affliction: one for damage (spammable, gap closer, aoe, etc), one for utility (healing, stun, mitigation). You'd have enough skills that someone could make a full vampire build, or have more options than the hodge podge that we've currently got that works for almost no one.