Why ask feedback from PTS if all of it goes unlistened?

rrimöykk

What the topic says.

I cannot believe all the feedback, suggestions, nerfs, buffs, and whatever inbetweene went unanswered. Not even a comment from developers about why they didn't take in suggestions.

Would love to hear what direction you aim to take the game so we, the community, could decide should we continue to play or invest our time in other games.

In most games new content adds better gear, items and skills. In ESO we need to grind old content for random sets just because developers felt like it.

Why is it so hard to communicate with your players?

zvavi

They did see that roaring opportunist tooltip is wrong, so I assume they do read it, somewhat.

SmukkeHeks

Because it’s very hip to be inclusive. So the global corporations are so trying, but never succeeds.

Delete it. I did. Why would I scream into a void of indifference?

Red_Feather

I'm not longer interested in this game. I used to pay money to play this game. I wonder why a person willing to pay money for something has no say over a person getting paid to make something. It is what it is and gets what its owed.

Gilvoth

the devs do listen to and think about everything we say and do here on forums and ingame. ALOT of what i have seen people ask for does get put ingame, most of the time.
they create insightful responses ingame to the requests we make. just that sometimes what WE or one person might think is good for the game is really not good for the game and could destroy fun for alot of people or even Destroy the game as it is if certain ideas are followed, so the devs im sure vote on and discuss and think about the ideas we suggest and they do what is best for the game instead of just Blindly doing everything suggested which is quite smart of them.
just because it was suggested by some people does not mean it is a good idea.

josiahva

Really? Its pretty clear that the PTS is to test bugs, NOT develop the game according to player wishes. Ever since I started playing its been pretty clear that ZOS has a vision for how they want the game to play....they don't really care if players like it or not, which as well and good...its far better than listening to every suggestion that someone throws out there. Listening to players is what causes nerfs after all. PvP players come on forums, complain about dying to X build, next patch, X build is nerfed....this is BAD, it negatively affects the entire playerbase.

While a lot of the changes they make every patch negatively affect the entire playerbase, they do make more subtle changes that help as well. Obviously they do listen to some things...look at stranglers as an example. Some leaderboard group goes in wearing all stranglers and streams it...ZOS watches said video and says "oh look, the top .01% of the playerbase is able to use stranglers to do massive damage and still survive...lets nerf the set that was probably the biggest single floor-raising set we ever made". This hurts the low DPS people a lot more than the high DPS people...they will continue to steamroll vet trials...whereas lower DPS people who were just starting to pass DPS checks because of stranglers are now back under that threshold. It reminds me of the shield-tank setup from years ago where because of balance tanks were able to keep massive shields on the group making vet trials easier....ZOS couldn't have that, so they nerfed it into the ground.

Its really baffling to me honestly....if they don't want to make the game easier...why in the world do they allow power creep the way they do? Average DPS has quadrupled over the past few years....all because of the builds some of these sets enable...but, they keep adding them, knowing they will just nerf them next patch...and so power creep progresses, 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

At this point, I have given up really caring what they do....I just look at each new patch as a way to re-learn and adjust as needed. Let them buff whatever they want...let them nerf whatever they want, I just don't care....I will adjust as needed.

Firstmep

josiahva wrote: »

Really? Its pretty clear that the PTS is to test bugs, NOT develop the game according to player wishes. Ever since I started playing its been pretty clear that ZOS has a vision for how they want the game to play....they don't really care if players like it or not, which as well and good...its far better than listening to every suggestion that someone throws out there. Listening to players is what causes nerfs after all. PvP players come on forums, complain about dying to X build, next patch, X build is nerfed....this is BAD, it negatively affects the entire playerbase.

While a lot of the changes they make every patch negatively affect the entire playerbase, they do make more subtle changes that help as well. Obviously they do listen to some things...look at stranglers as an example. Some leaderboard group goes in wearing all stranglers and streams it...ZOS watches said video and says "oh look, the top .01% of the playerbase is able to use stranglers to do massive damage and still survive...lets nerf the set that was probably the biggest single floor-raising set we ever made". This hurts the low DPS people a lot more than the high DPS people...they will continue to steamroll vet trials...whereas lower DPS people who were just starting to pass DPS checks because of stranglers are now back under that threshold. It reminds me of the shield-tank setup from years ago where because of balance tanks were able to keep massive shields on the group making vet trials easier....ZOS couldn't have that, so they nerfed it into the ground.

Its really baffling to me honestly....if they don't want to make the game easier...why in the world do they allow power creep the way they do? Average DPS has quadrupled over the past few years....all because of the builds some of these sets enable...but, they keep adding them, knowing they will just nerf them next patch...and so power creep progresses, 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

At this point, I have given up really caring what they do....I just look at each new patch as a way to re-learn and adjust as needed. Let them buff whatever they want...let them nerf whatever they want, I just don't care....I will adjust as needed.

There are more feedback threads for balance changes than bugs.

And rest assured they ignored bug-feedback just as much as they did with balance

Charon_on_Vacation

josiahva wrote: »

Really? Its pretty clear that the PTS is to test bugs, NOT develop the game according to player wishes. Ever since I started playing its been pretty clear that ZOS has a vision for how they want the game to play....

ah yes, their vision..
just like when they buffed dots by 60% and everybody told them it's a bad idea but they said "we have a vision, we know what we do! we have a plan!" and then nerfed them back to almost the same values 3 month after.
or when they nerfed the ult gain of bloodspawn and now brought it back!
or a dozen more examples that could fill this whole page.
that vision!
i see..
i mean, they can do what they want, but don't ever believe they actually have a plan or a clue.

Jem_Kindheart

This has been a legitimate issue as long as I can recall. Remember when Elsweyr was on PTS, the PTS forum was lit with "DO NOT do this, it is ridiculously overpowered". Well... ofc... nothing was listened to. These were by long time ESO vets and from the top names too, telling them this. Not just a few random angry forum warriors.

Right on time, stuff went live. Few months later, ZoS goes "HOLY F THIS IS WAS OVERPERFORMING" and nerfs it and other things. The crazy thing is, they then act like this is all brand new to them lol. There's serious gamers and theorycrafters that play the PTS and give feedback, and it is not listened to.

Thus the 'what's the point?' question is quite valid.

JinMori

Over the years i have seen that zos always goes with the lowest effort solution.

Instead of improving the servers they just find a way to gimp players, stuff like that.

That is what has been true since at least morrowind or so, maybe even slightly earlier.

Over the years this game will become more and more irrelevant if they want to continue with this garbage, and good, that's what you deserve. The elder scrolls title can''t carry you forever.

Honestly, if a new good mmo comes out i will leave probably permanently, shadowlands is not looking bad, but not that great either.

Fur_like_snow

Sure they listened. They realized they could sell some alliance war skill lines outta the crown store. Did you think they were gonna make easier?

ZaroktheImmortal

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Sure they listened. They realized they could sell some alliance war skill lines outta the crown store. Did you think they were gonna make easier?

This.

pink_panther

Was asking myself the same question. They Just ignored every single suggestion...

RIP Vamp...

I also hate the class and Set nerfs Like false god

Squeaky_Clean

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Really? Its pretty clear that the PTS is to test bugs, NOT develop the game according to player wishes. Ever since I started playing its been pretty clear that ZOS has a vision for how they want the game to play....

ah yes, their vision..

My other favourite is the often used "to bring this in line with other abilities" .. then why did you make it not in line with other abilities in the first place.

There's no vision, there's changing developer's point of views and often change for the sake of change!

JamuThatsWho

Not getting exactly what you specifically want all the time =/= them not listening.

Feindrah

Yeah i'm honestly not sure why they ask for feedback when they won't listen or explain. Even feedback where most people all agree something is wrong, they just don't seem to care. I still like and care about this game.. but dang it is disheartening sometimes. Not that this is anything new though.

rrimöykk

JamuThatsWho wrote: »

Not getting exactly what you specifically want all the time =/= them not listening.

That's not what I said at all. They made some beautiful changes for the housing community and casual players.

I just hoped they would listen to end game players both in pvp and pve who actually know about mechanics, sets and skills.

Cadbury

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. None of this matters. Give feedback, if you feel it will make a difference. Or don't.

Anyron

rrimöykk wrote: »

What the topic says.

I cannot believe all the feedback, suggestions, nerfs, buffs, and whatever inbetweene went unanswered. Not even a comment from developers about why they didn't take in suggestions.

Would love to hear what direction you aim to take the game so we, the community, could decide should we continue to play or invest our time in other games.

In most games new content adds better gear, items and skills. In ESO we need to grind old content for random sets just because developers felt like it.

Why is it so hard to communicate with your players?

They do keep adding new sets. Every single patch. Whats wrong about updating old sets?
I don't know how long you are playing eso, but set rework is here every year so we are used to it

Master_Fluff

PTS is just placebo anyway. Just like the class rep program.

Pauwer

I have a thing, i'd like that they'd somehow include info about set and skill changes in the game also. 'Cause i don't always have the time to read the patch notes like in detail and i don't really care to know all tiny details, I'm not that bothered about it really. I'd just like the skill and set changes to be informed in the game.

gatekeeper13

What you people seem to fail to understand, is that ZOS primary target is to make money. They first care about improving crown sales. Everything else follows.

Artorias24

For me they always go the easiest way of doing things to at least say, they did something.

For example the new class spammables the Community was asking since release for.

Stamdk stone Fist, no one using it out of a Trial tank to buff dps. Ppl told them in hundreds of posts how clunky the skill is and that it doesnt fit the purpose of a dragonknight wich fights melee. And also throwing rocks looks not really powerfull. But here we have our rock to throw at ppl. With an initial cast time, being melee and ranged and single target and aoe hybrid whatever it is man. Wtf.

Now we got our long demanded stamsorc spammable. Wich is a copy paste of elemental weapon. Same Animation, some different effects and here we are done. Does it feel satisfying to use? Feeling powerfull? Looks dope af? Nooooppeee.

Dunno man, give me 1 hour and i come up with a concept showing more power of your Character with fluid Animation fitting the whole class theme.

But here we are, pooping rocks at ppl and light attacking with some glowy weapons. While nightblades strike with a dagger from the shadow to cut through enemies or templars using a light Spears to stab everyone in their paths.

Eliahnus

rrimöykk wrote: »

I cannot believe all the feedback, suggestions, nerfs, buffs, and whatever inbetweene went unanswered. Not even a comment from developers about why they didn't take in suggestions.

Asking for player feedback is just a way to let players believe they can influence the development of the game.

JinMori

Artorias24 wrote: »

For me they always go the easiest way of doing things to at least say, they did something.

For example the new class spammables the Community was asking since release for.

Stamdk stone Fist, no one using it out of a Trial tank to buff dps. Ppl told them in hundreds of posts how clunky the skill is and that it doesnt fit the purpose of a dragonknight wich fights melee. And also throwing rocks looks not really powerfull. But here we have our rock to throw at ppl. With an initial cast time, being melee and ranged and single target and aoe hybrid whatever it is man. Wtf.

Now we got our long demanded stamsorc spammable. Wich is a copy paste of elemental weapon. Same Animation, some different effects and here we are done. Does it feel satisfying to use? Feeling powerfull? Looks dope af? Nooooppeee.

Dunno man, give me 1 hour and i come up with a concept showing more power of your Character with fluid Animation fitting the whole class theme.

But here we are, pooping rocks at ppl and light attacking with some glowy weapons. While nightblades strike with a dagger from the shadow to cut through enemies or templars using a light Spears to stab everyone in their paths.

That's the last of the problems to be honest, stone fist is a more fitting stam dk spammable anyway as it procs the class passive, the only problem is the launching visual, and initial cast time, but the orbs look good.

The real problem is this lax approach for the game, kinda like "everything is gonna be ok" kind of approach, no it's not gonna be ok. Not if you take these kinds of shortcuts for big problems that require actual solutions.

At this point i believe there is a 90 % chance that what they will do with cp is pretty much just nerfs.

TwinLamps

I stopped caring when sDK didnt got stamwhip

Khatou

Today, a community, in the eyes of this type of publisher, no longer exists, now this is how this type of company sees the player :

did you buy our game? thanks for stopping by and goodbye...

They want us to believe in a community spirit with nice ads to bait future victims, but behind, no proof of humanism, just shareholders concerned about their turnover, such is the reality of current MMORPGs, they don't think about the players anymore, nor even about the impact on their morale, it's long gone the time when the community was listened to and even received answers on the forum, and not a "bot" type moderator message, now everything is scrypt to simplify the task, RIP the sociability!

For my part, I'm really starting to wonder about the interest of playing an MMORPG, because players propose a lot of good ideas, but developers are too obtuse to listen to them and too lazy to think about including a good idea, nowadays respect doesn't exist anymore...

We are offered a forum, but in the end, what's the point? Most developers don't even respect the definition of this tool anymore!

redlink1979

josiahva wrote: »

(...)Its pretty clear that the PTS is to test bugs, NOT develop the game according to player wishes.(...)

^ This

MerguezMan

1) Accept ZoS is a commercial company.
Their first goal is to make money, not to deliver what you personnally expect.
By consequence, second goal is to keep players entertained.

2) Accept development process is priorized.
The potential effort that you get to experience every 3 month is limited.
Part of it is taken by quarterly DLC and crown store items, as it makes money.
Some effort might be planned over several versions, meaning what you test on PTS now is the result of a development started 6 or 9 months ago.
The remaining might be used for bugfix and/or improvement, though this remaining effort is marginal.

3) Consider the possible outcomes of your feedback.
- you report a bug on PTS: it might be fixed if delay is acceptable. If too much effort is required, it would be fixed in future patch, and/or the linked source might be disabled. (ie. group queue in BG)
- you suggest an adjustment on a modified thing: +/- 5% difference on same effect might be implemented. (ie. iterations on PTS v2, 3, 4)
- you suggest something wildly different: requires more development effort, and might be implemented in future patch.
And when I say "future patch", it's more likely the ones in 6+ months than the direct next.

4) Consider ongoing issues (biggests)
- performance is rather bad. Lag is annoying. Loading screens are killing people.
- CP system has been frozen for more than 2 years, the game lacks vertical progression system.
- Group finder is somewhat stable but still does not allow grouping before BG.
- Some of the best skilled ZoS team members have quit in a way or another, leaving a gap in internal knowledge.

Conclusion:
ZoS probably listens to your feedback, but your expected result is probably way above realistic possible outcomes.

LadySinflower

What I imagine is that, if a dev has an idea for a change, they probably have to make up some kind of presentation for the decision making team. They have to come up with predictions for how their change will impact the game in the future. Then the decision makers have to sit down and discuss it away from the devs who want the change. Sometimes their predictions are wrong and an unforeseen problem arises. That's when they go back and nerf things they changed.

Donny_Vito

They didn't listen to all of it?

Similarly to when people use the word "always" or "never" in their argument to prove a point.