ESO vs Stand alone games (skyrim, morrowind,...)

eMKa8

Hi 👋

Interesting question , i hope...
What are the main differences between the vast landscapes of Tamriel in ESO versus the stand alone games such as skyrim , oblivion, morrowind,...

I tried to find online and on youtube for some thoughts and opinions about it but cant find it.

Why would someone play skyrim instead of eso?

Eso is much bigger and its online and it has skyrim! Or what am i missing here ?

Is the gameplay different ?

Why would some prefer to play the stand alone games ?

What does it have to offer compared to the bigger eso franchise ?

Is the sta d alone games also not much much smaller ? Havent you seen the landscapes of those games rather quickly

phwaap

ESO is one-dimensional in comparison.

AcadianPaladin

Mass and scale is the crucial difference to me. ESO literally dwarfs both Oblivion and Skyrim combined. My elf played 4k hours in Oblivion and outgrew it. She then played 4k hours in Skyrim and outgrew it. With 8k hours so far in ESO, I see no signs of her outgrowing it.

Single player (SP) games offer the advantage of modding to your liking literally anything you don’t like about the game. This comes with a price though, as managing a full load order with either Oblivion or Skyrim can be a challenge.

SP provides the comfort of knowing things that you like will never be nerfed out from under you.

Some random comments:

Right out of the box (no modding), ESO has better combat mechanics, graphics and character creation than either Oblivion or Skyrim.

For the first time in Elder Scrolls history, staves are actually good weapons in ESO!

Graphics in Oblivion are very dated (without heavy mods).

I play to spend time with my elf; not with other players. That said, I find ESO to be the best current choice for me. That it is multiplayer is a drawback I live with, and the game actually is pretty single player friendly. Clearly, there are as many opinions on all this as there are players so your mileage may vary.

VaranisArano

I really like ESO. But its an MMORPG, not a single player game.

The single player games take one area and deeply develop it.

For example, in TES 3 Morrowind, if I could see a location, I could explore it. There would be something small there for me to do. In ESO's Morrowind, there are a lot of ruins that are literally window dressing.

The single player games develop their area's culture and races in more depth.

For example, in Oblivion (regarded as one of the blander of the main games), we get the sprawling, multicultural heart of the Empire with cities that reflect different architectural styles. In ESO's Summerset, the cities of the Altmer all look like they use the same set of assets and there's very little that visually sets apart a city at a glance. And just compare the worldbuilding of the TES3 Dunmer vs ESO Altmer.

The single player games offer meaningful player choicrs.

For example, Daggerfall, Morrowind, and, to a lesser extent, Skyrim, are faction-based games. Who you ally with has lasting consequences for your story, your friends, and your enemies. ESO, despite starting out as a faction-based game, has done away with that in PVE. The only remaining meaningful, lasting choice is over two skill points with the Mages Guild.

The single player games offer a variety of combat and leveling experiences that's distinct from ESO.

For example, Morrowind will feel pretty close to old-school pen&paper RPGs with its dice rolling. Prior to Skyrim, Spellcrafting was a brilliant (and often OP) part of the magic system. The weapons are more realistic, where ESO does stuff like one bow shoots a hail of arrows.

Finally, in the single player games, my character can do everything.

My Dragonborn was a level 80 with all skills and weapons maxed and all spells learned. There were no limits. I could play a mage one day, a sneak archer the next, and shield bash giants to death the day after.
In ESO, I can play a variety of roles, but my Dragonknight main will never shoot lightning from her fingertips.


ESO has a lot of good things that make it distinct from the single player games.
It's got group PVE content.
It's got PVP.
It's got guilds.
It's got amazing stories, quests, characters, and lore.

But the above are some of the reasons I adore the single player games.

SidraWillowsky

You really cannot compare an MMO to a single-player RPG. Apples and oranges. ESO is an MMO first with an Elder Scrolls flavor- I do not count it among the official TES I -- V installments.

Bigger is not always better. If you've played TES III or V, the richness of the world makes up for the size; Vvardenfell and especially Skyrim in ESO feel very watered-down. In the single-player games, the world is built around you as a solo player. In ESO, the world is built for all players.

In TES III Morrowind, your choices matter in many cases. You can break the game by letting an NPC die and you can kill anyone. The game will actually tell you when what you've done breaks a quest (in the main quests, at least) and advises that you load an older save, unless you want live in the corrupted world you've created where you literally cannot continue a quest. You also have to work a LOT harder to garner the trust and admiration of others- you're dumped into this highly unfriendly world where you feel so, so alone, both literally and figuratively. In ESO people just kind of like and trust you no matter what. That sense of isolation just cannot be replicated in an MMO. There's a much more dynamic relationship between you and NPC.

Exploration in general is more rewarding. Some of the most powerful weapons in TES III are found randomly scattered about in places that are easy to miss. It's lead me to explore every nook and cranny of places. In ESO you know where to find things- items in the open world are found in treasure chests and nodes.

ESO might contain parts of Morrowind and Skyrim, but there are experiences that ESO simply cannot replicate. Two examples come to mind:

• Finding Blackreach in Skyrim. It involves a long trek through a rather typical Dwemer ruin; at that point for me I'd explored a ton of Skyrim and was generally used to the world landscape and Dwemer ruins. But then you open the door to Blackreach and this shimmering, spectacular, massive subterranean world unfolds in front of you that looks nothing like anything you've seen in the game. Part of what made that moment so special was how utterly *alone* I was. It's a very desolate area, scattered only with Falmer, Chaurus, and Falmer "slaves", and you wander through it, seeing the remnants of what must have once been a bustling Dwemer hub. There's just no way to replicate that in an MMO. I'll note, however, that I'm generally unhappy that Blackreach made it into ESO in general.
• Finding and entering the Cavern of the Incarnate in Morrowind, where Azura confirms that you're the Nerevarine. I cannot imagine that moment being as impactful in ESO, where you'd likely be around a few other players who are ALSO the Nerevarine.

But again- this is all by design, and it comes down to what you prefer. MMOs lack the "I'm in this alone" sense, which.... yeah, duh- it's an MMO. That's by design. But for me, I feel that ESO's areas lack the richness of its single-player counterparts because of that. And it's not an issue I have, just something I know is part of MMO gameplay.

eMKa8

Thank you all!
Great examples and opinions

Asardes

Zones are larger, but blander, with less detail, more generic quests, building, delves etc. I guess you can do a full playtrough of all zones in about ~3-4 months but if you're not into group activities, I don't really recommend the game since it won't last much more than that.

Sylvermynx

For me, this IS TES VI - because it's not all that likely I'll still be able to play CRPGs if or when TES VI actually releases. (I'm still playing Oblivion and Skyrim btw.)

I actually prefer SPMR games, except for one thing: an MMORPG is not a static world/game. Sure you can mod in new stuff for Oblivion and Skyrim (to an extent), but except for one major mod (Legacy of the Dragonborn in Skyrim) - and perhaps the Beyond Skyrim mods - you will eventually run out of new quest mods (because so many years down the road, modders may have gone elsewhere - again, except for icreamassassin and LotD).

So I'm loving ESO, because it's not static Oblivion or Skyrim.

Sahidom

My review.

The stand-alone Skyrim, and its predecessors, far exceed ESO. While many of the story arcs stayed linear, the actual gem of Bethesda Elder Scrolls franchise was the depth and diversity of character development. ESO is excluded here.

While the multi-player feature is appealing to play within the Elder Scroll universe; but ESO failed to bring out the main character aspects of the franchise. This is unfortunate; instead they began to evolve the online version into a format that mirrors its own competition to lure players.

There are a handful of features ESO contributed to deliver a multi-player game; in my opinion, Bethesda may have hurt their franchise. There was rumor for another single player Elder Scrolls game being developed. So maybe they'll bring back the total depth of the game world we love.

Elsonso

eMKa8 wrote: »

Hi 👋
What are the main differences between the vast landscapes of Tamriel in ESO versus the stand alone games such as skyrim , oblivion, morrowind,...

Why would someone play skyrim instead of eso?

Eso is much bigger and its online and it has skyrim! Or what am i missing here ?

Is the gameplay different ?

Why would some prefer to play the stand alone games ?

What does it have to offer compared to the bigger eso franchise ?

Is the sta d alone games also not much much smaller ? Havent you seen the landscapes of those games rather quickly

I have thousands of hours in Elder Scrolls games, Morrowind through ESO.

They are all different games. TES got progressively worse as it got better from TES 3 to TES 5.

TES 3 Morrowind... Best for lore, presentation of lore, story, spells, and enchanting. Worst for character models, low level combat, and ... well, anything low level, actually. Bloodmoon DLC.

TES 4... Better character models, worse presentation of lore, story not as good. Game complexity is dumbed down from Morrowind. Radiant AI means you never know where anyone is, but gives the world life. Leveled list opponent system is absurd. The bartering system was just strange. Shivering Isles remains the best DLC for any ES game.

TES 5... Better character models and flexibility, no improvement to lore presentation, story is about as good as Oblivion, if you consider the Skyrim Civil War to be the main quest. The other one, with the dragon, isn't as good as the Oblivion Crisis. Unbelievably, they found more ways to dumb down game complexity, and given the success, it apparently paid off. DLC are forgettable. Well, except for Serana. They fixed the leveled list opponent system, so now you can out-level the world. Radiant Story allows for repeatable and somewhat random quests.

If TES 6 follow the pattern, it will look absolutely gorgeous, with a character generation system that stuns. Most players will spend more time creating the characters than playing the game. Game play will be dumbed down to the point where you need only click on the "fast travel to last quest", beat the boss by spamming Mouse 1, and you are done. Total game time 30 hours, 20 minutes spent actually in the game world.

ESO... trashed the ES combat system and replaced it with an MMO combat system based off fixed classes and weapons with combat skills. Stuck with the dumbed down Skyrim attribute system. Added static armor that does fancy things rather than just being armor, which replaces the TES enchanting systems. Crafting is good for an MMO, though. Lore is presented in the Skyrim manner. The game is massive, which makes it hard to compare stories. Some stories are really good, others are not so much. They are very "TES-Like". Visually, not much different from Skyrim, but much more colorful and varied. DLC/Chapters are good, usually better than Skyrim, not up to Shivering Isles.

Out of all that, I prefer ESO because it is an MMO. As I replayed Oblivion and Skyrim over the years, two things stood out. First, the world is SMALL and EMPTY. There is no one there. Second, it does not matter that no one is there because I am the only thing that matters, anyway. No monster dies unless I kill it. Nothing is found unless I find it. No one achieves anything, but me. At least with ESO, the zones and cities look busy. Other players can kill monsters, loot treasure chests, farm resources, get achievements, and all of it while I am no where to be found.

Tyrobag

eMKa8 wrote: »

Why would someone play skyrim instead of eso?

Because Skyrim is better than ESO in almost every way. It has the depth that a TES game should have. It has simple, yet engaging and flexible combat. It can be modded. It has no microtransactions (assuming you block the stupid creation club using mods, like you should).

eMKa8 wrote: »

Eso is much bigger and its online and it has skyrim! Or what am i missing here ?

You're missing the fact that ESO is deep as a puddle. And the TES fanbase doesn't come to the games for an online experience.

eMKa8 wrote: »

Is the gameplay different ?

Yes, there are almost no similarities between the two in this respect.

eMKa8 wrote: »

Why would some prefer to play the stand alone games ?

Answered above.

eMKa8 wrote: »

What does it have to offer compared to the bigger eso franchise ?

The ESO "franchise" is not bigger.

eMKa8 wrote: »

Is the stand alone games also not much much smaller ?

You've asked this question 3 times with slightly different wording...

This said, in the realm of MMOs ESO blows most others out of the water, if they could just separate PvE and PvP and stop messing up one for the other with each patch.

ZaroktheImmortal

I like both for different reasons. I'm usually more into singe player games myself and I love the Elder Scrolls games but ESO is also one of the few mmos that really caught my attention

JKorr

eMKa8 wrote: »

Hi 👋

Interesting question , i hope...
What are the main differences between the vast landscapes of Tamriel in ESO versus the stand alone games such as skyrim , oblivion, morrowind,...

I tried to find online and on youtube for some thoughts and opinions about it but cant find it.

Why would someone play skyrim instead of eso?

Eso is much bigger and its online and it has skyrim! Or what am i missing here ?

Is the gameplay different ?

Why would some prefer to play the stand alone games ?

What does it have to offer compared to the bigger eso franchise ?

Is the sta d alone games also not much much smaller ? Havent you seen the landscapes of those games rather quickly

I usually play single player games. I've played Morrowind, Tribunal, Bloodmoon, Oblivion, Knights of the Nine, Shivering Isles, Skyrim [and dlc], and I'm considering Hammerfell or whatever the next ES game is titled.

There are times I don't want to deal with people. Online mmorpg is people, some of whom may decide to intentionally screw with your game play. It is also "online", if I don't have internet [and have set my Steam for offline] then I can play when I want, internet access or not. ESO can't be played if the servers are down for any reason.

To cover the large world of ESO, the stories are broad and sweeping. You don't find a lot of detail or even hidden areas or items. The single player games have a lot more options to get npc details, hidden areas, and items to find. I still remember how hard it was to find daedric arrows in Morrowind; how hard it was to get daedric armor, and finding a cursed mine you had to report to a Counselor in a haunted mansion that you could get a daedric weapon as a reward.... ESO stories tend towards the gray, and in some cases have me actively avoiding certain quests with any alts, because they were do darn depressing.

The single player games cover a smaller area, yes. However they have a lot more detail, and offer rewards for exploring. ESO, not so much.

TonyDemonLord

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Mass and scale is the crucial difference to me. ESO literally dwarfs both Oblivion and Skyrim combined. My elf played 4k hours in Oblivion and outgrew it. She then played 4k hours in Skyrim and outgrew it. With 8k hours so far in ESO, I see no signs of her outgrowing it.

OMG, you have actually play 8 THOUSAND HOURS IN ESO?! That’s insane! I’m currently sitting at CP 321 and I’ve played 130 hours and I’m starting to get a bit bored. Not to say there isn’t enough content, but so many of the missions and quests are so alike that they kind of start to blend together. I have no idea how you can play 8 thousand hours and still be enjoying the game and not going crazy from playing so much.

@AcadianPaladin

BlueRaven

The single player games are vastly better than ESO. Many people have touched on the much deeper and customizable character builds.
But I want to hit on two things not brought up yet;

1) The world feels more alive in the single player games.

Npcs have homes, they go to sleep, they eat and do chores. All the npcs in ESO seem to stand around in the same space 24 hours a day.

2) ESO plays it fast and loose with the lore.

Between how dragons are handled, to a overly populated blackreach, to unstealthy wood elves (etc), it’s hard for me to take the lore here that seriously since it seems they (ZOS) doesn’t take the lore seriously themselves.
It’s like a very good fan fiction but ESO is always going to feel like it’s not a part of the ES universe, just a distorted mirror of it.

ShawnLaRock

This is one of the reasons that I held out on using my 18th Character Creation to experience the Greymoor tutorial (when I heard we wouldn’t get any additional slots) - because the “magic” I felt in these past Elder Scrolls games is only even closely-matched when I have a new toon able to actually feel the “fear” or the “exhilaration” of what this world can offer. I LOVE ESO - and I hope this same feeling can be experienced based on what the company decides...

S.

ZaroktheImmortal

JKorr wrote: »

eMKa8 wrote: »

Hi 👋

Interesting question , i hope...
What are the main differences between the vast landscapes of Tamriel in ESO versus the stand alone games such as skyrim , oblivion, morrowind,...

I tried to find online and on youtube for some thoughts and opinions about it but cant find it.

Why would someone play skyrim instead of eso?

Eso is much bigger and its online and it has skyrim! Or what am i missing here ?

Is the gameplay different ?

Why would some prefer to play the stand alone games ?

What does it have to offer compared to the bigger eso franchise ?

Is the sta d alone games also not much much smaller ? Havent you seen the landscapes of those games rather quickly

I usually play single player games. I've played Morrowind, Tribunal, Bloodmoon, Oblivion, Knights of the Nine, Shivering Isles, Skyrim [and dlc], and I'm considering Hammerfell or whatever the next ES game is titled.

There are times I don't want to deal with people. Online mmorpg is people, some of whom may decide to intentionally screw with your game play. It is also "online", if I don't have internet [and have set my Steam for offline] then I can play when I want, internet access or not. ESO can't be played if the servers are down for any reason.

To cover the large world of ESO, the stories are broad and sweeping. You don't find a lot of detail or even hidden areas or items. The single player games have a lot more options to get npc details, hidden areas, and items to find. I still remember how hard it was to find daedric arrows in Morrowind; how hard it was to get daedric armor, and finding a cursed mine you had to report to a Counselor in a haunted mansion that you could get a daedric weapon as a reward.... ESO stories tend towards the gray, and in some cases have me actively avoiding certain quests with any alts, because they were do darn depressing.

The single player games cover a smaller area, yes. However they have a lot more detail, and offer rewards for exploring. ESO, not so much.

I actually enjoy the morally grey choices cause they make me think more on them. It's one of the things I enjoyed about it and hope there's more morally grey choices in the next Elder Scrolls games. If a choice is too easy just right and wrong then it has less meaning to me. But one where there is no right answer that really gets me thinking.

Kiralyn2000

eMKa8 wrote: »

Why would someone play skyrim instead of eso?

Eso is much bigger and its online and it has skyrim! Or what am i missing here ?

Is the gameplay different ?

Why would some prefer to play the stand alone games ?

Different people look for different things in games.

"Much bigger" isn't a priority to everyone. Also "it's online" isn't necessarily a positive thing.

Is the gameplay different? Utterly. Yes, they tried to get a bit of TES into ESO, but they're not really all that similar - ESO is very much a modern MMO, with all that entails.

Why would some prefer to play the standalone games? Because they have different stories, different gameplay, different opportunities for character development, etc. They're different experiences.

(For the record, I just got done playing Skyrim SE a couple weeks ago. There's actually still quite a lot I could do in that playthrough, but that character has gotten pretty OP and has found/crafted/tried all the modded armor & outfits that I added. Got a bit burnt out, switched to another game.)

Elsonso

BlueRaven wrote: »

The single player games are vastly better than ESO. Many people have touched on the much deeper and customizable character builds.
But I want to hit on two things not brought up yet;

1) The world feels more alive in the single player games.

Npcs have homes, they go to sleep, they eat and do chores. All the npcs in ESO seem to stand around in the same space 24 hours a day.

Actually, I find it is the opposite. The single player games are dead. I find myself installing every possible follower, companion, and NPC mod I can find, not so they will follow me around, but so that the world feels less empty.

Yeah, the TES NPCs move around per Radiant AI, which at least gives them something to do, but spend enough time in Whiterun and NPC schedules quickly lose the magic.

BlueRaven wrote: »

2) ESO plays it fast and loose with the lore.

Between how dragons are handled, to a overly populated blackreach, to unstealthy wood elves (etc), it’s hard for me to take the lore here that seriously since it seems they (ZOS) doesn’t take the lore seriously themselves.
It’s like a very good fan fiction but ESO is always going to feel like it’s not a part of the ES universe, just a distorted mirror of it.

Lore does not mean stagnant. Bosmer and stealth does not bother me at all, from a lore perspective.

Dragons are fast and loose, but we all know that the reason that they did dragons is that they are cool. And, they are. They kept them far to the south. I don't like them, but they are actually right in the fact that no lore that I am aware of says they were not there.

The sad truth is that lore always takes a backseat to whatever the game wants, what is technically possible, and even to mistakes. This is a tradition that goes back to Daggerfall. Elder Scrolls Arena was not designed to be the first in a series of games.

I have said this before, and it will be interesting to see what happens, but I am pretty sure that the events from 2nd Era ESO will make it into the 4th Era TES 6 when it comes out. I think that there are some people who think (hope?) that ESO will just be erased from history with some dragon break, but I doubt that will happen. We already know that the lore decisions made by ZOS are canon.

AefionBloodclaw

[snip] So many differences, so much immersion breaking, lore-breaking garbage in ESO. Dunno if I can really be bothered even covering this if it hasn't been covered already.

[edited for bashing]

AefionBloodclaw

BlueRaven wrote: »

The single player games are vastly better than ESO. Many people have touched on the much deeper and customizable character builds.
But I want to hit on two things not brought up yet;

1) The world feels more alive in the single player games.

Npcs have homes, they go to sleep, they eat and do chores. All the npcs in ESO seem to stand around in the same space 24 hours a day.

2) ESO plays it fast and loose with the lore.

Between how dragons are handled, to a overly populated blackreach, to unstealthy wood elves (etc), it’s hard for me to take the lore here that seriously since it seems they (ZOS) doesn’t take the lore seriously themselves.
It’s like a very good fan fiction but ESO is always going to feel like it’s not a part of the ES universe, just a distorted mirror of it.

THIS SO MUCH

idk

Stand-alone games and MMORPGs, especially theme park MMORPGs, are so very different that pretty much every comparison will be tainted by personal preference. This was evident during the testing of this game.

Syldras

eMKa8 wrote: »

Is the gameplay different ?

To make it short: Yes.

eMKa8 wrote: »

I tried to find online and on youtube for some thoughts and opinions about it but cant find it.

You have seen videos of TES 3 Morrowind on Youtube and don't recognize a difference to ESO? I'm not even meaning the old graphics, but all differences in gameplay? The dialogue system? Spell system? The whole way of navigation and travelling? To recognize differences in quest-building and immersion, you might have to look a bit deeper, but those things are so obvious, it's hard to believe they didn't catch your eye.

Sindala

You've never experienced Skyrim correctly until you have been attacked by Thomas the Tank Engine,
Turned the entire of Whiterun into Vampires,
Or filled a dungeon with 50k wheels of cheese,
Turned the "Dragons" into actual Dragons and not Wyverns,
Morphed a Frost Troll into a Bunny Rabbit.....i could go on.

Basically Modding is why Skyrim and Morrowind are still played today.

Nairinhe

It's simple:
1. MMO for width
2. Single-player for depth

Aznarb

We don't have anti-gravity horse

Flaaklypa

Sindala wrote: »

Turned the "Dragons" into actual Dragons and not Wyverns,

Dragons are mythical creatures, there is no right or wrong about them. In ES universe dragons ARE the dragons we see in the game. They are not wyverns, unless directly stated so by the creators.

If the creators decided to call them a lollipop race, then that is what they would be. You cant put a dictionary correction into their fantasy world, and claim what they choose is dragons, to be something else. its beyond stupid

coletas

eso is multiplayer only oriented. I say that because content for just one player is not a challenge for anybody. Quests are boring as hell, are easy as hell, bosses are creature with more or less hp but no challenge at all. Not bosses are like plants, dont have any IA and you can kill them even with no armor and weapons even at level cp800+ (look any skyreach video...). You wont find anything that has any value exploring. You can have all without touching a chest at all. You already know u Will never find something. NEVER. This is not a Game like Skyrim or Fallout where exploring can be very rewarding. You know that in thqt chest or in that crate or barrel, there is only rubish. Replaying the game is still worse experience. having to do the same superfun quests like take 10 rats and go with them far away and then we Will give 75 pieces of gold lol... so rewarding... Now repeat that with chickens, dogs or birds lol taking skyshards and all that boring staff just to play with another class. Graphics are dated as hell and doesnt look near to Skyrim hd for example. And relations with npc are ==null. No Matter what you choose to say them, It Will never change anything important on a quest or the plot. ... No, this game was somewhat fun, when It was playable, on multiplayer. Coop or PvP. But is not anymore

gatekeeper13

Skyrim/Morrowind = Quality

ESO = Quantity

amm7sb14_ESO

phwaap wrote: »

ESO is one-dimensional in comparison.

Pretty much this.

Morrowind / Oblivion / Skyrim have much deeper content, quests, stories, a much more vast character building system that offers virtually unlimited freedom, whereas ESO confines you into narrow boxes if you want to do literally any semblance of end-game or group content. Their worlds are more detailed, towns that actually serve purposes and have reasons to be in them.

Morrowind / Oblivion / Skyrim are just simply put far better games, deeper content, and more freedom of world and character building, whereas ESO is a pretty standard post-WOW run of the mill MMO that greatly limits what you can and can't do with your character with non-sensical and arbitrary character build limitations.

Sindala

frontend wrote: »

Sindala wrote: »

Turned the "Dragons" into actual Dragons and not Wyverns,

Dragons are mythical creatures, there is no right or wrong about them. In ES universe dragons ARE the dragons we see in the game. They are not wyverns, unless directly stated so by the creators.

If the creators decided to call them a lollipop race, then that is what they would be. You cant put a dictionary correction into their fantasy world, and claim what they choose is dragons, to be something else. its beyond stupid

I cannot begin to say how wrong you are, but i suggest you google search a few debates on the subject
I would link pictures but it's so damb hard to get pictures to work on these forums.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454457/the-difference-between-wyverns-and-dragons

(obviously this is ment as fun and by no means a personal attack)