Class Balance, Should I create NB Toon? Critical changes are a mistake

AelyinESO

Since after PTS Note 6.1.4 looks like Zenimax are getting lost in terms of class balance I would like to know if I need now to create a NB toon to be able to DPS in trials and stuff related to the game. Again other classes like Sorceres are getting impaired due to changes in the PVP scenario, urgently need to separate this balance to avoid damage done to others environments, skill lines like vampires being totally devastated among other skills that are each update devastating other ways of playing. We need changes. I hope that the Critical Nerf issue will be evaluated before Live.

SidraWillowsky

I don't like the idea of extreme crit changes either, but this is REALLLLLLLLLLY premature. I would not do anything at this point since we have no idea what the changes will look like.

Atherakhia

lol, you're overreacting.

Sorcerers don't use Crystal Frag spam in their DPS rotation, they only use the proc from Crystal Frag and that's it. From testing it sounds like the proc's damage wasn't changed. So your only point isn't valid.

What makes you think the other changes being made are for PvP reasons? Fact of the matter is mag DPS in this game is largely bad. NBs, as you said, are the top dogs. If anything, maybe magblade DPS should be nerfed too so the gap between mag classes is much more narrow and once all mag classes have relatively similar DPS, they can then adjust all mag DPS together to be inline with stamina? While that may involve nerfs for some and buffs to other, it's undeniable how that would be good for the game. Can we at least agree on that?

Class design in this game is awful. Just look at the Necromancer. Stam Necros are overperforming but are carried by only 2 skills. Mag Necros are awful at everything but are brought to groups in triplicate because of a single ability. A class overhaul is desperately needed in this game and, in theory anyway, ZOS seems to recognize that given the vague comments. Unfortunately they've been saying as much about CP for awhile now with no signs of any progress on that front either. Regardless, your'e overreacting a little and we simply don't know enough about anything atm to make any decisions on anything. Other than no one asked, wanted, needs, or is interested in proc sets being buffed (imo).

AelyinESO

Atherakhia wrote: »

lol, you're overreacting.

Sorcerers don't use Crystal Frag spam in their DPS rotation, they only use the proc from Crystal Frag and that's it. From testing it sounds like the proc's damage wasn't changed. So your only point isn't valid.

What makes you think the other changes being made are for PvP reasons? Fact of the matter is mag DPS in this game is largely bad. NBs, as you said, are the top dogs. If anything, maybe magblade DPS should be nerfed too so the gap between mag classes is much more narrow and once all mag classes have relatively similar DPS, they can then adjust all mag DPS together to be inline with stamina? While that may involve nerfs for some and buffs to other, it's undeniable how that would be good for the game. Can we at least agree on that?

Class design in this game is awful. Just look at the Necromancer. Stam Necros are overperforming but are carried by only 2 skills. Mag Necros are awful at everything but are brought to groups in triplicate because of a single ability. A class overhaul is desperately needed in this game and, in theory anyway, ZOS seems to recognize that given the vague comments. Unfortunately they've been saying as much about CP for awhile now with no signs of any progress on that front either. Regardless, your'e overreacting a little and we simply don't know enough about anything atm to make any decisions on anything. Other than no one asked, wanted, needs, or is interested in proc sets being buffed (imo).

Yeah I agree with u, was just an example about Sorcerers since many willing coming from PVP Group almost destroyed the class.

In terms of Class Balance Zenimax are totally lost. MagSorc are getting left in the corner since a long time ago and others classes too. I agree I can overreacting and we need to check it on live, but since we all know how Zenimax works, I'm losing some faith here.

But lets see!

katorga

Atherakhia wrote: »

lol, you're overreacting.

Sorcerers don't use Crystal Frag spam in their DPS rotation, they only use the proc from Crystal Frag and that's it.

We'll see if that stays the case. With a shorter cast time, 10% cost reduction built in, and the ability to proc frags, it might be a viable spammable next patch. Wrecking blow, with the same cast time is a viable stamina spammable.

I assume based on the cryptic reference to a larger pass on crit sources, they will reduce crit by 10-20% from what is common today. I guess they are looking at the fact that no one uses malacath in pve, lol. Who knows. They change direction like the weather.

If whatever they do to AOE's makes it into pve, then all bets are off. You can't really make any decisions on balance, classes, sets or builds until you know how that plays out. It will be the most radical change since they created CP...definitely will upend the PVP landscape.

Jodynn

An overhaul is long overdue for the combat system.

azjuwelz

I started with a Bosmer stamblade 2 years ago, suffered through the racial changes and then a year of horrible nerfs. I stuck with it, and while the current buffs are welcome news, I do get concerned and hope it hasn't been crazily overbuffed.

My advice is if you want a NB then play it and don't worry about future changes . Zos likes to overpower and then overnerf classes all the time. No class is safe, honestly.

Finedaible

IF the blob nerfs critical chance sources it won't be at least until the next major update judging from that odd comment on patch 6.1.4. I don't think anything significant will change anymore this pts since it is the last week and nothing usually does. Nobody knows what the blob is thinking right now, not even the class reps know what it thinks, IF it thinks... I'd say Nightblade can't get any worse in pvp than they are now, but then they always pull the most surprising nerfs out of left field for no reason. The Nightblade changes we saw this pts could even end up being pointless later depending on that mysterious "larger pass on Critical Strike sourcing" they mentioned.

Tannus15

Mag sorc is getting buffed this patch.

The pet change to scale off max mag and spell damage is a boost to their dps.
Frags proc still gets the same dps as you'd expect on live. If no one told you about the change you'd never notice.
Frags as spammable does about 5% less dps than a proper spammable, but it has significantly better sustain and it free's up a skill slot since you always want to run frags.
I'm not planning on using it as a spammable, but it's not terrible like it was.

overall my dps has increased this patch according to my PTS parses compared to my live parses, even taking into account nerfs to siroria and false god.

Czekoludek

Atherakhia wrote: »

lol, you're overreacting.

Sorcerers don't use Crystal Frag spam in their DPS rotation, they only use the proc from Crystal Frag and that's it. From testing it sounds like the proc's damage wasn't changed. So your only point isn't valid.

What makes you think the other changes being made are for PvP reasons? Fact of the matter is mag DPS in this game is largely bad. NBs, as you said, are the top dogs. If anything, maybe magblade DPS should be nerfed too so the gap between mag classes is much more narrow and once all mag classes have relatively similar DPS, they can then adjust all mag DPS together to be inline with stamina? While that may involve nerfs for some and buffs to other, it's undeniable how that would be good for the game. Can we at least agree on that?

Class design in this game is awful. Just look at the Necromancer. Stam Necros are overperforming but are carried by only 2 skills. Mag Necros are awful at everything but are brought to groups in triplicate because of a single ability. A class overhaul is desperately needed in this game and, in theory anyway, ZOS seems to recognize that given the vague comments. Unfortunately they've been saying as much about CP for awhile now with no signs of any progress on that front either. Regardless, your'e overreacting a little and we simply don't know enough about anything atm to make any decisions on anything. Other than no one asked, wanted, needs, or is interested in proc sets being buffed (imo).

Magblade DPS was really awful for a long time because of the 2 years of ongoing nerfs. Class is really good in single target damage now (not best but in really good place) but have weak cleave/aoe damage. MagDk two patches ago provided better AoE and single target (a LOT better). It was toned down because of that (in my opinion too muc, they need a buff to dmg or sustain). Why you want to nerf class that is good in only one thing and not even the best at it? We are talking about PvE here as in PvP magblades are trash

Atherakhia

I'm not trying to single out any class. I'm simply saying that Mag out pace stam largely because of all the buffs available and stamina suffers. That's not fair for stamina classes. On top of that, there's a fairly large disparity in damage even between the mag classes which means half of them are of questionable value too.

No single class should have a unique buff/debuff/synergy (this doesn't mean all classes should be the same or every class should have it) because then you run into exactly what we're seeing today. A subpar class has high representation giving the mistaken idea that the class is fine or perhaps in need of nerfs.

Similarly, no class or spec should have a significant advantage on DPS. You often see stam classes argue they should have a DPS advantage because they're melee and in more danger and move around more. That doesn't work in this game because all but one mag class needs to be melee range too and everyone stacks into a ball on a boss' butt anyway. So IMO, nerf or buff, don't much care but something needs to be done to get the classes and spec more inline with one another.

ThePianist

I main a mag blade and a stamblade. Imo, if you are going to create a NB toon it’s going to be a tough uphill experience in terms of pve and pvp. People like to argue the dps stats on a test dummy, theory crafting is not a parallel to real world scenarios. Who’s getting kicked in vet dungeons the most? Nightblades. Who’s underperforming from pre-50 cp all the way to high MMR Battlegrounds? Nightblades. I’m pretty sure there’s a collective spreadsheet that shows this somewhere in the database.

Weaving 5 LA’s to proc relentless focus is not as easy as you think. The projectile speed of the arrow is the same speed as snipe, it can miss. And it will definitely be not easy when all of these proc sets go live.

Just so you know, I stay in top rank 50 ps4 na battlegrounds. I’m not the best, I definitely can’t 1vx a premade team running 2 proc sets, but I still do pretty well. Premade groups with 55k hp werewolfs, premade magdks and premade warden northern storm death ball groups are stomping high MMR battlegrounds atm. Nightblades? Yeah I’ll just stalk and prey people at Imperial city lol.

If the proc sets go live and there’s no aoe cooldown then I’m just going to rebuild my NB into a troll tank. 100k hp with Thunderbug, and I can cloak away.

Joxer61

nothing is live.............yet.

Drdeath20

ThePianist wrote: »

I main a mag blade and a stamblade. Imo, if you are going to create a NB toon it’s going to be a tough uphill experience in terms of pve and pvp. People like to argue the dps stats on a test dummy, theory crafting is not a parallel to real world scenarios. Who’s getting kicked in vet dungeons the most? Nightblades. Who’s underperforming from pre-50 cp all the way to high MMR Battlegrounds? Nightblades. I’m pretty sure there’s a collective spreadsheet that shows this somewhere in the database.

Weaving 5 LA’s to proc relentless focus is not as easy as you think. The projectile speed of the arrow is the same speed as snipe, it can miss. And it will definitely be not easy when all of these proc sets go live.

Just so you know, I stay in top rank 50 ps4 na battlegrounds. I’m not the best, I definitely can’t 1vx a premade team running 2 proc sets, but I still do pretty well. Premade groups with 55k hp werewolfs, premade magdks and premade warden northern storm death ball groups are stomping high MMR battlegrounds atm. Nightblades? Yeah I’ll just stalk and prey people at Imperial city lol.

If the proc sets go live and there’s no aoe cooldown then I’m just going to rebuild my NB into a troll tank. 100k hp with Thunderbug, and I can cloak away.

Magblade has always been strong in pve. Yes it use to be god mode dps and that has dropped a bit but its still better than average. 3 necromacer are a necessity and some trials require different raid compositions but magblade always made the cut. Strong instant ranged spammable that is a HoT, 20 second DoT in shade, very strong DoT in twisted path that provides mobility (very useful for kitting sunspire, vcr, vhof, vas, vka) instant ranged execute, unique buff in incap strike (20% increase in damage for 6 seconds) that works very well with bow proc and impale. Sure merciless is a bit tricky in actual combat. Sometimes it misfires sometimes the lag makes weaving impossible but its a much stronger burst skill than any other class has and nbs have the luxury of sitting on it to select a more optimal target.

They recieved some nerfs but the biggest reason they dropped was that 3 necros is the basic requirement for optimal uptime on bone colossus and that magdks combustion passive was immensely overperforming with the asylum inferno staff. Magdks didnt have sustain issues anymore and the new trial that was dropped had 3 giant stationary dragons. All the better for those long DoTs.

Pound for pound magblades have the best toolkit for any situation. Maybe not the strongest on a non cheese test dummy parse but like you said its a different ballgame from test dummy to what actually works in the field. Look at a magplar. They are basically nb lite. Same 10 second rotation with a ~6 skill pop. They can put up some decent dummy parses but in tough content they are laughably bad. Channels, really no HoT, no mobility, really no cohesiveness in build bcz half the toolkit requires melee range while the other half is ranged, burst skill that can be hard to fill up during boss fights that have immunity etc...

Soo yes i will agree that outside of a bomber or some troll build in pvp magblades are a little annoying mosquito. Maybe the weakest solo pvp spec in the game. I also reject your premise that magblades were insta-kicked or kicked the most in pve. They are top end damage dealers, suprisingly decent tanks and adequate healers too. I find it strange that they got a few pve buffs (crit damage buff and shade no longer requiring a target) but hey all the better for me.

SshadowSscale

AelyinESO wrote: »

Since after PTS Note 6.1.4 looks like Zenimax are getting lost in terms of class balance I would like to know if I need now to create a NB toon to be able to DPS in trials and stuff related to the game. Again other classes like Sorceres are getting impaired due to changes in the PVP scenario, urgently need to separate this balance to avoid damage done to others environments, skill lines like vampires being totally devastated among other skills that are each update devastating other ways of playing. We need changes. I hope that the Critical Nerf issue will be evaluated before Live.

Nightblade got a critical buff this patch...and it is funny because zos plans on nerfing crits later on.... And nb is gonna be one of the classes that will be hit the hardest with the nerfs to crits due to hiw much a nb has to use crit for their damage.... I would say nb is a no go if its going to be viable for 1 patch and then nuked the next patch

Tommy_The_Gun

NBs have a passive that boost your crit chance the more assasination abilities you have sloted. If ZOS is going to reduce crit chance acroass the board - NB will feel it the most as their class is more or less about crit chance & crit dmg boost.

Some one said that it is too early to say - and I agree... But knowing ZOS, NB probaly is gonna get nerfed hard with those crit chance / damage audit.

Celestro

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

NBs have a passive that boost your crit chance the more assasination abilities you have sloted. If ZOS is going to reduce crit chance acroass the board - NB will feel it the most as their class is more or less about crit chance & crit dmg boost.

Some one said that it is too early to say - and I agree... But knowing ZOS, NB probaly is gonna get nerfed hard with those crit chance / damage audit.

I don't understand why assume that the class that most specializes on critical hit chance is likely to take a heavier hit than others, not even including them specifically stating, "Critical Chance in the game is relatively high for builds that aren't even specializing in it". If all sources of critical hit chance would get nerf, that passive inherently puts them above all other classes before and after the nerf. I dont get how every other class going from, say 50% crit to 45% and NB from 55% to 50% hurts them more.

And they only said critical hit chance, not critical damage. Granted, that could change but again, ot of overreaction and bad assumptions without any remote evidence.

SshadowSscale

Celestro wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

NBs have a passive that boost your crit chance the more assasination abilities you have sloted. If ZOS is going to reduce crit chance acroass the board - NB will feel it the most as their class is more or less about crit chance & crit dmg boost.

Some one said that it is too early to say - and I agree... But knowing ZOS, NB probaly is gonna get nerfed hard with those crit chance / damage audit.

I don't understand why assume that the class that most specializes on critical hit chance is likely to take a heavier hit than others, not even including them specifically stating, "Critical Chance in the game is relatively high for builds that aren't even specializing in it". If all sources of critical hit chance would get nerf, that passive inherently puts them above all other classes before and after the nerf. I dont get how every other class going from, say 50% crit to 45% and NB from 55% to 50% hurts them more.

And they only said critical hit chance, not critical damage. Granted, that could change but again, ot of overreaction and bad assumptions without any remote evidence.

The problem is that zos is not going to go and nerf it across the boars due to them wanting everything to fall in line with their "balance" spreadsheet meaning anything that is below what they see as standard crit is going to get buffed and anything abive is getting nerfed.... Nightblade is going to be a big outlying class when it comes to crit thus zos logic is going to say it needs the biggest nerf... This is how zos always does it... Look no further from the dot buffs amd nerfs and you will see some of the dots getting nerfed way harder than others due to their standards..... Same is going to happen here.... I would no recomend making a nightblade untill after the crit nerfs are done... At least then we will knoe for sure..... And also as a side note zos has a history for completly butchering nightblades over and over so an over nerf is to be expected

Drdeath20

I have no idea what testing metric they use to decide what needs nerfs or buffs but i can assure you that its not that.

The developers do not want balance. They want a new META class every patch or 2 to force ,those that choose it, to have alts. Having many alts means more chances to rack in more cash.

Villainelle

ThePianist wrote: »

Who’s getting kicked in vet dungeons the most? Nightblades.

No one kicks from vet dungeons based on class. This is a player problem, not a class problem.