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Legendary quality transfer station?

ChaosWotan
ChaosWotan
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Transmute stations make it possible to change the trait of gear, so why not introduce: 1) new gear levels higher than rubedite etc, and 2) a transfer station that makes it possible to transfer the legendary (gold) quality of old gear to each new level of gear introduced by ESO in the future.

We have had ruby gear now for many years. To introduce more (of a feeling of) progress in the game, it would be nice to have many more gear levels. But upgrading each new level to legendary quality is a boring grind. So why not have a legendary transfer station as an item sold by master writ merchants?

If you have a legendary sword for example, at level 16, then put in a level 17 sword in the transfer station, and the gold quality gets transferred to the latter.

To avoid upgrading the HP and fighting skills of all open world NPCs, perhaps new level gear should only be usable in vet dungeons, vet trials and "legendary pvp". That's realistic, since warfighters usually don't dress up in their most heavy battle gear when being in areas that are relatively safe.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    No, I don't want to regrind ALL of my CP 160 gear just to feel a smidgeon more powerful.
  • ChaosWotan
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    Getting materials for creating new level gear doesn't require much effort. It's the upgrading to gold quality which takes time. Besides, the gear you get from vet dungeons etc will instantly be at a higher level when you progress as a fighter in the game.
  • ChaosWotan
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    Ah, see now what you mean by regrind.
  • CyberSkooma
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    Nobody wants to get new materials and change their gear. It doesn't matter how easy or difficult it is made, people will absolutely not want to do that. Myself included.
    I play this game a little bit I guess
  • ChaosWotan
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    I have always felt that reaching new gear levels in a mmorpg is part of the fun in such games, providing a feeling of progress and achievement. After all, that's why ESO has a gear level system. But it's only fun the first time you play through a mmorpg. Then it gets boring to grind for new gear. A solution is to have a legendary transfer station that also upgrades all trial and undaunted gear you already have, so that you don't have to regrind those.
  • AlnilamE
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    Getting materials for creating new level gear doesn't require much effort. It's the upgrading to gold quality which takes time. Besides, the gear you get from vet dungeons etc will instantly be at a higher level when you progress as a fighter in the game.

    On the contrary, if you do writs regularly, you have enough improvers for anything outside of jewelry (where blue improvers are actually my bottleneck). Getting the actual gear pieces in the higher level would be the time consuming part.
    The Moot Councillor
  • ChaosWotan
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    See my reply just above yours.
  • Pevey
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    If they did this, they would nerf all gear first, and then later introduce the higher level gear so that you can get back the power you already lost. They would hope people wouldn’t notice. See for example VMA weapons.
  • VaranisArano
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    I have always felt that reaching new gear levels in a mmorpg is part of the fun in such games, providing a feeling of progress and achievement. After all, that's why ESO has a gear level system. But it's only fun the first time you play through a mmorpg. Then it gets boring to grind for new gear. A solution is to have a legendary transfer station that also upgrades all trial and undaunted gear you already have, so that you don't have to regrind those.

    There's still a couple of problems with this:

    1. Power Creep and old PVE group content. ZOS doesn't increase level with new areas (for good reason, see One Tamriel). So dungeons and trials get slightly harder, but old group content isn't completely obsolete. With that in mind, ZOS tries to keep player power levels more or less constant via horizontal progression.

    If ESO (re)adopted your system of Vertical Progression in group content, either old content would become obsolete or ZOS would have to upgrade and rework old content to keep pace. (Unless the benefit of CP 170 gear is tiny, in which case there's no reason for the system beyond giving a fleeting sense of progression?)

    2. Power Creep and PVP. Balancing PVP with increasing CP gear ought to be as simple as "Well, you all got more powerful, so what's the problem?" Well, its not quite that easy. Small things like increased stats from set bonuses or traits like Impen or Harmony can have an outsized impact on certain builds or groups, which leads to more balance changes to the meta. (Unless the changes are tiny, in which case why are we adding CP 170+ gear again?)

    3. Free upgrades to CP 170: yeah this seems like a good idea! New players only have to grind up to CP 170, old players can just freely upgrade.

    Yeah, that's unlikely. Let's look at two examples why.
    Example 1: Transmutation
    Transmutation isn't free. It requires grinding PVE group content or getting Tier 1 in an Alliance War Campaign to earn crystals.
    Also, Transmutation was never intended to be the main way to get gear and weapons in your favored trait. It was a guarantee that eventually you would.
    So looking at transmutation, we can see that ZOS designed a system where you have to play ESO one way or another: either you grind for your item or you play certain content for the transmute stones. (And with Jewelrycrafting, ZOS doubled down on the "play the game for crystals" method.)

    Example 2: new VMA weapons
    ZOS had the perfect opportunity to do a free upgrade to the new Perfected VMA weapons for all players who had earned them.
    Did they?
    Haha, nope! See, "they aren't the same weapons" so players got nothing. Players who want the more powerful Perfected versions have to regrind VMA.

    Why would more powerful CP 170 gear be any different? (Well, aside from the massive outcry from players complaining about having to regrind all their stuff, that is.)



    I understand that you want to feel progression by seeing the number on your gear get bigger, but that's not really feasible with how ZOS has chosen to balance ESO. Even if it were, I'm not convinced that a free upgrade is in the card.
  • kargen27
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    I have always felt that reaching new gear levels in a mmorpg is part of the fun in such games, providing a feeling of progress and achievement. After all, that's why ESO has a gear level system. But it's only fun the first time you play through a mmorpg. Then it gets boring to grind for new gear. A solution is to have a legendary transfer station that also upgrades all trial and undaunted gear you already have, so that you don't have to regrind those.

    The way the game works now increasing gear levels would simply be level progression for the sake of level progression. It wouldn't have any impact on game play other than in PvP until everybody catches up.

    There would be some type of requirement to use a transfer station like there is with the transmute stations. The requirements would be time consuming enough that some players would rather go for the new gear instead of leveling up the gear they already own.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • richo262
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    The game already has more materials than it needs.

    Jewelry did it right, 5 mats, 5 tiers. Wood/Black/Cloth has 10, and half are redundant after 1 play through.

    If anything, to use Blacksmithing as an example ZOS should rejig this.

    Something like the following

    Iron + Steel = Iron
    Orc + Dwarven = Steel
    Ebony + Calcinium = Orc
    Galatite + Quicksilver = Dwarven
    Voidstone + Rubedite = Ebony

    With Iron, Steel, Orc, Dwarven, Ebony all reflecting the same level structure as Jewelry.

    Also, nobody in their right mind golds a level 16 weapon. The game certainly shouldn't encourage people to do it. Gold mats are quite cheap, do daily writs, farm a few pub dungeons and you'll either get them or the gold to purchase them.

    As you level you'll realise how easy it is to acquire gold mats and then see the effort required to do a transfer of mats and it will be apparent that is would be redundant. The game as far as farming gear goes starts at CP160. Before that, most players aren't going to be tagging along on any trials or end game content. Their exposure to the best gear in the game is very low. If a level 16 player somehow managed to get Perfected Rele pieces, I could see them wanting this, but if they could do vCR+3 at level 16 they probably belong to a guild that carried him and he'll just do it again at CP160.
  • Wandering_Immigrant
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    So because of the way scaling and item level cap works in ESO, raising the level cap would actually make you weaker not stronger. Your item strength is determined by the set bonuses and all set bonuses cap the same regardless of material used, and everything is balanced around the item cap which is 160.

    For example if they raised the cap to 300, freshly made characters would become stronger because they'd now be scaled to 300 instead of 160, but an 810 would become weaker because they would now only be 500 CP above cap rather than 650 CP above cap. This would only be useful as a means to counter power creep.

    What you're looking for is a new upgrade material beyond legendary, which I personally don't think is necessary, but I understand the sentiment. I always though upgrading armor and weapons should've been more difficult similar to upgrading jewelry, that way it could've been something you strive for long term with each new upgrade feeling like continued progression. As is, going to purple is trivial and going from purple to gold is simply a matter whether it's a set you plan to keep long-term or not.
  • ChaosWotan
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    Interesting and informative comments. Tnx, appreciate it :)

    I meant CP 160, not level 16. Have just returned to ESO after a year's pause, so forgot the difference between the two.

    Gradually getting stronger weapons in order to more easily finish very difficult vet trials/dungeons, and finish vDSA solo, would have been an incentive for me to play ESO more often. Have played since 2014/15, so the game feels a bit static, few great rewards you can get, though the scrying mount was a good idea. Perhaps it's a wrong assumption now but my impression is that unless you have the natural talent and skills required to be an elite gamer (in an elitist guild) there is currently almost no way to progress to a point where it's possible to finish some of the vet content. Guess I just have to wait for a new higher CP cap and a future nerf of older vet dungeons.

    Regarding "free" upgrades of vet trial/dungeon gear: I don't view it as being free when you have already spent a lot of time grinding this kind of gear. Then you have done the job, the rest can be on the house.

    Damn, now I have to regrind VMA just to get perfected weapons... Perfect :(

    I liked VMA, but ESO should have created an entirely new solo arena where players can get perfected weapons.
  • richo262
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    ZOS has content for all ranges.

    The casual player can complete all content on normal
    The more advanced casual player can complete all content on veteran (best gear drops here)
    The 'elite' player and their guilds can complete all content on veteran hard mode (best gear, double drop)

    Each tier requiring more knowledge of mechanics, and more organisation and communication within the group.

    Most people in the first bracket should be able to complete veteran base game dungeons as well and acquire monster sets. Also many trials, nAA, nSO, nHRC, nMOL, nHOF don't have a Perfected version, so the only difference between difficulty is higher tempered gear, purple, and the chance of a gold jewelry piece at the end. For most Perfected gear, their non-Perfected counterpart is just as viable, they just lack an extra 1k resources.

    The 3rd tier was not designed for everybody, it was designed around the best raid groups in the game to set the standard of what constitutes hardest, easiest and what is somewhere in the middle. Without that, the top tier raid groups would get bored of the game and find some other method of inflicting pain on themselves.
  • Xologamer
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    Transmute stations make it possible to change the trait of gear, so why not introduce: 1) new gear levels higher than rubedite etc, and 2) a transfer station that makes it possible to transfer the legendary (gold) quality of old gear to each new level of gear introduced by ESO in the future.

    We have had ruby gear now for many years. To introduce more (of a feeling of) progress in the game, it would be nice to have many more gear levels. But upgrading each new level to legendary quality is a boring grind. So why not have a legendary transfer station as an item sold by master writ merchants?

    If you have a legendary sword for example, at level 16, then put in a level 17 sword in the transfer station, and the gold quality gets transferred to the latter.

    To avoid upgrading the HP and fighting skills of all open world NPCs, perhaps new level gear should only be usable in vet dungeons, vet trials and "legendary pvp". That's realistic, since warfighters usually don't dress up in their most heavy battle gear when being in areas that are relatively safe.

    no. end of discussion.
  • stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    I have always felt that reaching new gear levels in a mmorpg is part of the fun in such games, providing a feeling of progress and achievement. After all, that's why ESO has a gear level system. But it's only fun the first time you play through a mmorpg. Then it gets boring to grind for new gear. A solution is to have a legendary transfer station that also upgrades all trial and undaunted gear you already have, so that you don't have to regrind those.

    So, let me get this straight: you are saying that you want something to be forced on everyone, but that only new players would enjoy it, so existing players need to get a shortcut?

    There are *lots* of different tiers of gear in the game for a new player, from level 1-50 through the obsolete CP10-CP150 levels that nobody ever gets to revisit after their first character has leveled up to CP160. Incidentally, most new players level to CP160 in a week or two, and most people I know were not particularly enjoying the frequent changes of gear during their first leveling. Because of how the game scales after One Tamriel, it's not a matter of becoming stronger with new gear - it's a matter of your existing gear becoming trash and you having to get new gear not to become weaker.

    How would adding some more gear levels above CP160 make a significant difference for new players? And how would it not cause outrage from everyone else? Sorry, but this is a bad idea.
  • Zodiarkslayer
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    "When the top level was built, no more could be placed. It was and is the maximal apex."
    - Septimus Signus
    read, think and write.In that order.
  • tgrippa
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    Hell no
    PCEU
    heh.
    heh.
  • witchdoctor
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    Yeah, no. For all the reasons already provided.
  • Mettaricana
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    No, I don't want to regrind ALL of my CP 160 gear just to feel a smidgeon more powerful.

    Not toention zos would just make the world harder so in actuality we'd just regrind the gear to end up at the same strength again. We've never gotten a true buff where there wasn't a trade off too that buff like skill does 50% more dmg but nerfed the passives to do 50% less....
  • ChaosWotan
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    Many good counterarguments here. Since you actually get weaker when leveling in ESO - a really stupid system, imo - it's clear that my idea of a transfer station will not work.

    In a mmorpg it's my subjective opinion that the best gear should always be available for the "average" enthusiast, not only the highly talented. The elite should instead be rewarded with tons of gold when finishing vet on hard mode, so that they can buy the most expensive estates, the coolest mounts, and other types of exclusive stuff that average enthusiasts can only purchase if working very hard to get rich.

    The best solution, I suppose, is to have a real progressive leveling system, which is only triggered each time ESO introduces a new map with a new storyline, so that you naturally level your gear as you play the story. All grind-intensive gear, outside the new storyline, should then be automatically upgraded (if you have a legendary quality transfer station). But this will obviously not work unless ESO changes its current reverse system of "leveling", something that will probably never happen.
    Edited by ChaosWotan on August 9, 2020 1:43PM
  • VaranisArano
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    A progressive leveling system is unlikely to happen, period, as long as ZOS continues to embrace One Tamriel's method of keeping old content relevant.

    I have a feeling you'd have really enjoyed ESO prior to One Tamriel, with its vet rank gear and railroaded vertical progression. But it isn't that type of game anymore and for good reasons.
  • ChaosWotan
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    ESO was best prior to IC :)

    But that's primarily because lazy devs don't produce enough content ;)

    More maps, more good stories, less fancy rewards in the crown crate casino, please.
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