Multiclassing

dragonmage0313

Should we be allowed to choose another class at level 50, but be able to pick ONLY one of the classes skill lines to follow?

Example: Level 50 Sorcerer can choose to use Dragon Knights Ardent Flame

Sylvermynx

No

I don't think that would make any sort of sense for balancing....

DaveMoeDee

As someone who pretty much only builds for PvE and who is relatively casual (and very casual as of late), I guess I'm fine with any power creep. While OP might have been thinking mostly about active skills, don't forget about the added passives.

I assume the added skill like would be able to be changed at another kind of shrine and that each line would be leveled independently.

The number of combinations though would make this insanely hard to balance.

dragonmage0313

I guess I'm thinking more as a roleplay mechanic...

It would be nice to play a magic character who has the ability to learn magic outside of his/her traditional teachings, for example.

OlumoGarbag

No

This would lead to alot of balancing problems since you can negate any downside of one class with the positive of other classes making overpowered builds.

josiahva

Yes

Absolutely! I will qualify that with the fact that I think leveling that "secondary" class skill line should take 100x-1000x as much experience as your main skill line....that way, sure, you can do it, but you have to be dedicated to it, and it is very unlikely anyone will ever multi-class any alts.

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

This would lead to alot of balancing problems since you can negate any downside of one class with the positive of other classes making overpowered builds.

Classes have downsides? Its not like Sorcs take extra physical damage or anything. "Overpowered" is relative. When I first started this game, 15k DPS was considered VERY good damage and 20k was top-of-the-line...and now we have people strolling around putting out 90k+ on a regular basis just to be able to get into a trial...you dont think that is "overpowered"? Of course, if they did this, the entire game would need to be rebalanced....but news flash, the entire game needs to be rebalanced anyway...an easy was to help balance unlocking skill lines would be to require X amount of CP from each tree for each additional skill line...that way, for each additional skill line you unlock you are giving up significant amounts of other buffs for your character and from a damage perspective it wouldn't make sense to ever grab more than one other skill line.

The fact is that whenever someone suggests a new skill line, skill mixing, or things like spellcrafting people always come in screaming about balance...but this game isn't even close to balanced now and has NEVER BEEN.

AcadianPaladin

No

Even though the game is not and will never be balanced, multiclassing would further complicate that impossible task. I would rather see more simplicity. A good start would be making race cosmetic only (just like gender is) and eliminating classes in favor of simply having skill lines.

I don't buy the argument that such would lead to 'only one meta' build because that same statement could be said now and is just as invalid.

josiahva

Yes

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Even though the game is not and will never be balanced, multiclassing would further complicate that impossible task. I would rather see more simplicity. A good start would be making race cosmetic only (just like gender is) and eliminating classes in favor of simply having skill lines.

I don't buy the argument that such would lead to 'only one meta' build because that same statement could be said now and is just as invalid.

Eliminating classes is exactly the same as multi classing...just pointing this out.

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun

Yes

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Even though the game is not and will never be balanced, multiclassing would further complicate that impossible task. I would rather see more simplicity. A good start would be making race cosmetic only (just like gender is) and eliminating classes in favor of simply having skill lines.

I don't buy the argument that such would lead to 'only one meta' build because that same statement could be said now and is just as invalid.

Mixing 2 class skill lines together is too complicated, but mixing every class/racial skill line together isn't?

DaveMoeDee

josiahva wrote: »

Absolutely! I will qualify that with the fact that I think leveling that "secondary" class skill line should take 100x-1000x as much experience as your main skill line....that way, sure, you can do it, but you have to be dedicated to it, and it is very unlikely anyone will ever multi-class any alts.

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

This would lead to alot of balancing problems since you can negate any downside of one class with the positive of other classes making overpowered builds.

Classes have downsides? Its not like Sorcs take extra physical damage or anything. "Overpowered" is relative. When I first started this game, 15k DPS was considered VERY good damage and 20k was top-of-the-line...and now we have people strolling around putting out 90k+ on a regular basis just to be able to get into a trial...you dont think that is "overpowered"? Of course, if they did this, the entire game would need to be rebalanced....but news flash, the entire game needs to be rebalanced anyway...an easy was to help balance unlocking skill lines would be to require X amount of CP from each tree for each additional skill line...that way, for each additional skill line you unlock you are giving up significant amounts of other buffs for your character and from a damage perspective it wouldn't make sense to ever grab more than one other skill line.

The fact is that whenever someone suggests a new skill line, skill mixing, or things like spellcrafting people always come in screaming about balance...but this game isn't even close to balanced now and has NEVER BEEN.

I strongly disagree with the idea of slow leveling. That would just push people toward mindless grinding on all their characters. Don't balancing game around not being enjoyable. Especially not thing game, where people want to enjoy narrative and not spend a month grinding mobs to make number go up.

Of course classes have downsides. There are holes in their skill sets relative to other classes.

And you seem to miss the math problem. You say "the entire game needs to be rebalanced." But if you add more combinations, you end up raising the complexity of the rebalance an order of magnitude. Right now they need to balance classes based on the combinations of 12 skills they have active + passives, while considering if gear * CP * mundus * food create overpowered synergies. Multiply that by the number of different game modes. Now you want to add more combinations of 12 active skills by throwing all class skill lines into the mix as well as their passives? If balance is already incredibly hard to maintain, adding this feature would be just giving up in principle on trying to balance classes.

Imagine considering rebalancing a skill of class A that is fine for class A, but is too powerful for classes B-F.

gatekeeper13

No

Nope. Just give the option to completely change class. But that wouldn't be financially profitable...

Atherakhia

No

This is stupid. It takes almost no effort to level another character in this game.

That said, this game is incredibly punitive to alts and they need to stop worrying about their bottom line and start worrying about keeping players interested.

When a player completes a skill line, that should make experience gain for that same skill line on all alts exponentially quicker. Take Mage Guild for example. You get 5 points per lorebook discovered. But once you get rank 10 on one character, all lorebooks should give you 25 points for all of your other characters. Psijic should only take half as many quests. Soul Magic could start maxed. Fighters/Undaunted give you 2x xp. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Given how slow ESO is to change to horrible imbalance and how ZOS likes to use a sledge hammer and not a scalpel when it comes to balance, it would be nice if making alts was a little less punitive.

Kalik_Gold

No

...

Mindcr0w

No

josiahva wrote: »

The fact is that whenever someone suggests a new skill line, skill mixing, or things like spellcrafting people always come in screaming about balance...but this game isn't even close to balanced now and has NEVER BEEN.

The game has balancing issues, therefore lets exacerbate the issue by no longer even trying to maintain any semblance of balance whatsoever and just incorporating any idea any rando on the internet can think up.

Makes sense.

finehair

No

Cloaking DK,
Streaking wardens
jabbing stamsorcs
frozen colosus bombing nightblades

Yes that would be a cyrodiil i wouldn't participate.

Knightpanther

No

Hell no they cant get the current *** right let alone more complicated stuff.

Be Safe

Tandor

No

Atherakhia wrote: »

This is stupid. It takes almost no effort to level another character in this game.

That said, this game is incredibly punitive to alts and they need to stop worrying about their bottom line and start worrying about keeping players interested.

When a player completes a skill line, that should make experience gain for that same skill line on all alts exponentially quicker. Take Mage Guild for example. You get 5 points per lorebook discovered. But once you get rank 10 on one character, all lorebooks should give you 25 points for all of your other characters. Psijic should only take half as many quests. Soul Magic could start maxed. Fighters/Undaunted give you 2x xp. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Given how slow ESO is to change to horrible imbalance and how ZOS likes to use a sledge hammer and not a scalpel when it comes to balance, it would be nice if making alts was a little less punitive.

The game is actually incredibly friendly towards making genuine multiple characters who can be progressed individually and equally, and it's why so many players remain committed to the game after several years. If, on the other hand, you're simply looking to replace one level 50 with another of a different class then you can do that in a few hours grinding at most, and you automatically have all the original character's CPs from level 1. Most of the other things that have to be leveled individually are either unnecessary or worth putting in the time for. It's hardly punitive.

josiahva

Yes

Mindcr0w wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

The fact is that whenever someone suggests a new skill line, skill mixing, or things like spellcrafting people always come in screaming about balance...but this game isn't even close to balanced now and has NEVER BEEN.

The game has balancing issues, therefore lets exacerbate the issue by no longer even trying to maintain any semblance of balance whatsoever and just incorporating any idea any rando on the internet can think up.

Makes sense.

You are thinking about this wrong. Skills are unbalanced because they are too powerful(or too weak) it is very rare that a skill is unbalanced because it synergizes so well with some other class specific skill. The exception to this rule are passives....but even most passives are skill-line specific...and those that aren't could easily be class restricted if such a system were implemented. I mean, who in their right mind would want to take magDK skills when they cost more than the equivalent of other classes? Who wants those sustain issues? Those skills are useful to magDKs because of the associated passives...take away the passives and they just become utility.

The point here is that IF they chose to implement such a large skill line increase of whatever type, that they could find ways to balance it. To be truthful though, I doubt very many players at all are actually interested in balance anyway....especially people who mainly PvP...when have you EVER seen someone in PvP who actually wants a fair fight? Its all about what ridiculous high damage/high resistance/infinite sustain build they can get away with that week to unbalance a fight as much as humanly possible.

Mindcr0w

No

josiahva wrote: »

The point here is that IF they chose to implement such a large skill line increase of whatever type, that they could find ways to balance it.

So the game "isn't even close to balanced now and has NEVER BEEN.", but the devs will suddenly be able to achieve balance after adding significantly more complexity to the game?

Makes sense.

Atherakhia

No

Tandor wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

This is stupid. It takes almost no effort to level another character in this game.

That said, this game is incredibly punitive to alts and they need to stop worrying about their bottom line and start worrying about keeping players interested.

When a player completes a skill line, that should make experience gain for that same skill line on all alts exponentially quicker. Take Mage Guild for example. You get 5 points per lorebook discovered. But once you get rank 10 on one character, all lorebooks should give you 25 points for all of your other characters. Psijic should only take half as many quests. Soul Magic could start maxed. Fighters/Undaunted give you 2x xp. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Given how slow ESO is to change to horrible imbalance and how ZOS likes to use a sledge hammer and not a scalpel when it comes to balance, it would be nice if making alts was a little less punitive.

The game is actually incredibly friendly towards making genuine multiple characters who can be progressed individually and equally, and it's why so many players remain committed to the game after several years. If, on the other hand, you're simply looking to replace one level 50 with another of a different class then you can do that in a few hours grinding at most, and you automatically have all the original character's CPs from level 1. Most of the other things that have to be leveled individually are either unnecessary or worth putting in the time for. It's hardly punitive.

Nearly every magicka class needs the Mage's Guild. It isn't optional and grinding it out is horrendous the first time. The 2nd, 3rd, 8th time is insanely abusive. Even the Psijic line is largely seen as mandatory for most people and while it's no where near as bad as Mage's Guild, it's still quite abusive the umpteenth time doing it.

Iluvrien

No classes.

All skill lines should be available.

However, I'd like to see certain skills be more easily available/leveled by joining (exclusive) in-world organisations and training with them (cultural, national, region, etc.)

josiahva

Yes

Mindcr0w wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

The point here is that IF they chose to implement such a large skill line increase of whatever type, that they could find ways to balance it.

So the game "isn't even close to balanced now and has NEVER BEEN.", but the devs will suddenly be able to achieve balance after adding significantly more complexity to the game?

Makes sense.

By that logic, we should reduce the amount for skills in the game to just 5. Instant balance right?

Jeremy

Yes

dragonmage0313 wrote: »

Should we be allowed to choose another class at level 50, but be able to pick ONLY one of the classes skill lines to follow?

Example: Level 50 Sorcerer can choose to use Dragon Knights Ardent Flame

I like the idea myself. Make it to where characters can choose a second class to level up similarly to how Final Fantasy 11 does it with sub jobs.

Or just remove class limitations all together and allow players to level up every class on the same character then pick and choose which abilities to use. This game actually has a good structure for such a system because there is limited space for abilities making it much easier to balance.

Red_Feather

Yes

I think it's a good thing for longevitity.

Warframe is adding it later this month and people are going absolutely hyper over it!
It is a huge motivator to keep people playing!

Tandor

No

Atherakhia wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

This is stupid. It takes almost no effort to level another character in this game.

That said, this game is incredibly punitive to alts and they need to stop worrying about their bottom line and start worrying about keeping players interested.

When a player completes a skill line, that should make experience gain for that same skill line on all alts exponentially quicker. Take Mage Guild for example. You get 5 points per lorebook discovered. But once you get rank 10 on one character, all lorebooks should give you 25 points for all of your other characters. Psijic should only take half as many quests. Soul Magic could start maxed. Fighters/Undaunted give you 2x xp. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Given how slow ESO is to change to horrible imbalance and how ZOS likes to use a sledge hammer and not a scalpel when it comes to balance, it would be nice if making alts was a little less punitive.

The game is actually incredibly friendly towards making genuine multiple characters who can be progressed individually and equally, and it's why so many players remain committed to the game after several years. If, on the other hand, you're simply looking to replace one level 50 with another of a different class then you can do that in a few hours grinding at most, and you automatically have all the original character's CPs from level 1. Most of the other things that have to be leveled individually are either unnecessary or worth putting in the time for. It's hardly punitive.

Nearly every magicka class needs the Mage's Guild. It isn't optional and grinding it out is horrendous the first time. The 2nd, 3rd, 8th time is insanely abusive. Even the Psijic line is largely seen as mandatory for most people and while it's no where near as bad as Mage's Guild, it's still quite abusive the umpteenth time doing it.

As predicted, when this sort of thing was asked for, it was provided - through the Crown Store. As always, be careful what you wish for. However, if you find a particular guild skill line indispensable on an alt and you don't want to spend the time to earn it in the game then the option is there to buy it at the cost of no more than a couple of months' subscription Crowns.

MMORPGs aren't about having multiple instant characters at endgame, they're about building characters over time and using that time to play the whole game with them.

However, not everyone seems to want to do that, or to subscribe to a MMORPG these days, so the option is there to buy faster progress instead. If that isn't acceptable either, then rather than dumb everything down for everyone, I'd far rather you could instead buy a Token to give you everything you want instantly at a high price. That way those who want to jump a character straight to endgame could do so, leaving everyone else to play the game the way it was originally designed to be played.

Mindcr0w

No

josiahva wrote: »

By that logic, we should reduce the amount for skills in the game to just 5. Instant balance right?

Going out of the way to remove existing complexity, and simply not intentionally adding more complexity are equivalent options?

Makes sense.

josiahva

Yes

Mindcr0w wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

By that logic, we should reduce the amount for skills in the game to just 5. Instant balance right?

Going out of the way to remove existing complexity, and simply not intentionally adding more complexity are equivalent options?

Makes sense.

You can't have it both ways. I guess you just want them to never add new skills?

Mindcr0w

No

Given the two options presented how would one not be able to have it both way? It is entirely possible to keep what exists without adding to it. In fact it requires 0 additional effort.

Given the state of balance in the game we might be better off without new combat related skills for quite some time, yes. Regardless, the occasional new skill line that is conceptually built from the ground up to be "balanced" if being used by anyone is not in any way equivalent to suddenly giving everyone access to everyone else's class specific skills. Skills that were never meant to be used together.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour

No

It would be impossible to balance.

Sylvermynx

No

I kind of have a hard time figuring out how the MG is "horrific" to grind. I wasn't even going to mess with it, but I still pick up and read all the books my characters run across. Then I decided to go ahead with both MG and FG on both account mains. By the time I joined the MG, I was already level 7 on both mains just on the books they'd already read. It took almost no time to do the quests, then read the rest of the books to get to max level.

FG on the other hand.... I HATE just killing things to level something like that - so FG is still sitting there at about level 3 on one and level 5 on the other (which finished the quests up for her of course so I've got attunables from Earth Forge in one of her houses so the other one - who may never finish the quests - can do the Master Writs she gets for those sets).

PrimusNephilim

No

they're having a hard enough time with the current calculations on their servers...this would bring them to a braking stop (nice idea thou)