Health based defensive skills

Lughlongarm

This is a huge issue in PvP that enables many of the problems we have with:

1)malacath's band of brutality
2)Proc sets/Heavy attack sets
3)Heavy armor
4)tanky builds with huge hp and very high DPS

While stats based dps builds having issues with low vigor ticks, players found a back door to maintain high dps+high healing+ heavy armor, without having any obvious trade-off.
On paper, malacath's + 3 proc sets set up, should have a been at best, a cheesy ganking build that will kill a target very fast or will be killed by a target even faster.

Players found a solution, just put all/most stats into HP(you don't need high magicka/stamina pools ). It will scale with heavy armor passive for even greater value. Grab malacath's + proc sets, it will give you the offence capabilities of a full damage build. Change your heals and defensive skills to skills like bone armor/ Artic blast/ Defensive Posture/ etc...

With the new "trainee set" change it will make this trend even worse(1 piece for extra health).

Solution is simple - Give the health based defensive skills the same treatment magicka shields got a while ago. health based will scale with your HP but will cap at 60% of your max main stat pool(magicka/stamina). The same way we didn't want 16k hp sorcs running with 30k shields, we shouldn't have 10k magicka/stamina pools with 15k shields/heals.

Nairinhe

I'd rather see PVP removed altogether just so that nothing would be nerfed anymore because of it

Wing

Nairinhe wrote: »

I'd rather see PVP removed altogether just so that nothing would be nerfed anymore because of it

ZOS probably does too.

that said cyro is great emergent gameplay and when its working can be one of the best experiences in ESO.

however when getting zerg'd by a ball group in heavy lag its the worst thing in this game.

Lughlongarm

Nairinhe wrote: »

I'd rather see PVP removed altogether just so that nothing would be nerfed anymore because of it

I don't think this will be an issue in PVE. In PvP you getting extra 5k Hp before amplifiers which make your HP pools extremely high. PVE, if you have 35k HP as a tank, 33%of if is 11.6k, you just need one of your max resource to be around 20k to get the full value.

universal_wrath

Lughlongarm wrote: »

This is a huge issue in PvP that enables many of the problems we have with:

1)malacath's band of brutality
2)Proc sets/Heavy attack sets
3)Heavy armor
4)tanky builds with huge hp and very high DPS

While stats based dps builds having issues with low vigor ticks, players found a back door to maintain high dps+high healing+ heavy armor, without having any obvious trade-off.
On paper, malacath's + 3 proc sets set up, should have a been at best, a cheesy ganking build that will kill a target very fast or will be killed by a target even faster.

Players found a solution, just put all/most stats into HP(you don't need high magicka/stamina pools ). It will scale with heavy armor passive for even greater value. Grab malacath's + proc sets, it will give you the offence capabilities of a full damage build. Change your heals and defensive skills to skills like bone armor/ Artic blast/ Defensive Posture/ etc...

With the new "trainee set" change it will make this trend even worse(1 piece for extra health).

Solution is simple - Give the health based defensive skills the same treatment magicka shields got a while ago. health based will scale with your HP but will cap at 60% of your max main stat pool(magicka/stamina). The same way we didn't want 16k hp sorcs running with 30k shields, we shouldn't have 10k magicka/stamina pools with 15k shields/heals.

Or, you can make proc sets affected by offensive stats, simple. You can alao make malacth ring to not effect proc sets. All those brisky high HP proc set bois will eventually drop this route as their damage will be severely lower in exchange for survivabilty.

Lughlongarm

universal_wrath wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

This is a huge issue in PvP that enables many of the problems we have with:

1)malacath's band of brutality
2)Proc sets/Heavy attack sets
3)Heavy armor
4)tanky builds with huge hp and very high DPS

While stats based dps builds having issues with low vigor ticks, players found a back door to maintain high dps+high healing+ heavy armor, without having any obvious trade-off.
On paper, malacath's + 3 proc sets set up, should have a been at best, a cheesy ganking build that will kill a target very fast or will be killed by a target even faster.

Players found a solution, just put all/most stats into HP(you don't need high magicka/stamina pools ). It will scale with heavy armor passive for even greater value. Grab malacath's + proc sets, it will give you the offence capabilities of a full damage build. Change your heals and defensive skills to skills like bone armor/ Artic blast/ Defensive Posture/ etc...

With the new "trainee set" change it will make this trend even worse(1 piece for extra health).

Solution is simple - Give the health based defensive skills the same treatment magicka shields got a while ago. health based will scale with your HP but will cap at 60% of your max main stat pool(magicka/stamina). The same way we didn't want 16k hp sorcs running with 30k shields, we shouldn't have 10k magicka/stamina pools with 15k shields/heals.

Or, you can make proc sets affected by offensive stats, simple. You can alao make malacth ring to not effect proc sets. All those brisky high HP proc set bois will eventually drop this route as their damage will be severely lower in exchange for survivabilty.

The issue I brought up is bigger. What is even a proc set? Sets that amplify heavy attacks like Sergeant's Mail are proc sets?
Many players abuse high HP builds with heavy attack sets+DW for bursty immortal builds. I can give stream examples as evidence.

Not sure about your solution to either proc sets, if it scales with stats shouldn't it crit as well? This alone will balance malacth.

BattleAxe

Lughlongarm wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

This is a huge issue in PvP that enables many of the problems we have with:

1)malacath's band of brutality
2)Proc sets/Heavy attack sets
3)Heavy armor
4)tanky builds with huge hp and very high DPS

While stats based dps builds having issues with low vigor ticks, players found a back door to maintain high dps+high healing+ heavy armor, without having any obvious trade-off.
On paper, malacath's + 3 proc sets set up, should have a been at best, a cheesy ganking build that will kill a target very fast or will be killed by a target even faster.

Players found a solution, just put all/most stats into HP(you don't need high magicka/stamina pools ). It will scale with heavy armor passive for even greater value. Grab malacath's + proc sets, it will give you the offence capabilities of a full damage build. Change your heals and defensive skills to skills like bone armor/ Artic blast/ Defensive Posture/ etc...

With the new "trainee set" change it will make this trend even worse(1 piece for extra health).

Solution is simple - Give the health based defensive skills the same treatment magicka shields got a while ago. health based will scale with your HP but will cap at 60% of your max main stat pool(magicka/stamina). The same way we didn't want 16k hp sorcs running with 30k shields, we shouldn't have 10k magicka/stamina pools with 15k shields/heals.

Or, you can make proc sets affected by offensive stats, simple. You can alao make malacth ring to not effect proc sets. All those brisky high HP proc set bois will eventually drop this route as their damage will be severely lower in exchange for survivabilty.

The issue I brought up is bigger. What is even a proc set? Sets that amplify heavy attacks like Sergeant's Mail are proc sets?
Many players abuse high HP builds with heavy attack sets+DW for bursty immortal builds. I can give stream examples as evidence.

Not sure about your solution to either proc sets, if it scales with stats shouldn't it crit as well? This alone will balance malacth.

Players have always gone for tanks builds that can deal damage however that is minor when speaking of proc sets. Nerfing health based defensive skills would be creating all sorts of issues in pve.

Lughlongarm

BattleAxe wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

This is a huge issue in PvP that enables many of the problems we have with:

1)malacath's band of brutality
2)Proc sets/Heavy attack sets
3)Heavy armor
4)tanky builds with huge hp and very high DPS

While stats based dps builds having issues with low vigor ticks, players found a back door to maintain high dps+high healing+ heavy armor, without having any obvious trade-off.
On paper, malacath's + 3 proc sets set up, should have a been at best, a cheesy ganking build that will kill a target very fast or will be killed by a target even faster.

Players found a solution, just put all/most stats into HP(you don't need high magicka/stamina pools ). It will scale with heavy armor passive for even greater value. Grab malacath's + proc sets, it will give you the offence capabilities of a full damage build. Change your heals and defensive skills to skills like bone armor/ Artic blast/ Defensive Posture/ etc...

With the new "trainee set" change it will make this trend even worse(1 piece for extra health).

Solution is simple - Give the health based defensive skills the same treatment magicka shields got a while ago. health based will scale with your HP but will cap at 60% of your max main stat pool(magicka/stamina). The same way we didn't want 16k hp sorcs running with 30k shields, we shouldn't have 10k magicka/stamina pools with 15k shields/heals.

Or, you can make proc sets affected by offensive stats, simple. You can alao make malacth ring to not effect proc sets. All those brisky high HP proc set bois will eventually drop this route as their damage will be severely lower in exchange for survivabilty.

The issue I brought up is bigger. What is even a proc set? Sets that amplify heavy attacks like Sergeant's Mail are proc sets?
Many players abuse high HP builds with heavy attack sets+DW for bursty immortal builds. I can give stream examples as evidence.

Not sure about your solution to either proc sets, if it scales with stats shouldn't it crit as well? This alone will balance malacth.

Players have always gone for tanks builds that can deal damage however that is minor when speaking of proc sets. Nerfing health based defensive skills would be creating all sorts of issues in pve.

don't think this will be an issue in PVE. In PvP you getting extra 5k Hp before amplifiers which make your HP pools extremely high. PVE, if you have 35k HP as a tank, 33%of if is 11.6k, you just need one of your max resource to be around 20k to get the full value.

katorga

How is this a "huge issue"? Players have been doing this for years.

25K is the minimum for health, and I think most players are rolling with 30K or more right now to compensate for the healing nerf last patch.

Players in zergs are easily rolling 35K or more, and have been for a while. Reguardless of proc sets, malcaath, or any other game mechanic, large numbers of players have the exact same affect; you can build for survivability instead of damage and let the aggregate group damage do the work.

Firstmep

Meanwhile my stamsorc has 39k hp in no cp already with full procsets and infinite sustain.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that /s

Lughlongarm

katorga wrote: »

How is this a "huge issue"? Players have been doing this for years.

25K is the minimum for health, and I think most players are rolling with 30K or more right now to compensate for the healing nerf last patch.

Players in zergs are easily rolling 35K or more, and have been for a while. Reguardless of proc sets, malcaath, or any other game mechanic, large numbers of players have the exact same affect; you can build for survivability instead of damage and let the aggregate group damage do the work.

And they can/will keep on doing so. What they will not be able to do is to play with 10k stamina/magicka pools, 45k+ HP, Argonian + 3 potion reduction glyphs, Overwhelming surge/defensive set/ Grothdarr/malcaath, constant pressure while having 8k-10k shields and heals.

Lughlongarm

Firstmep wrote: »

Meanwhile my stamsorc has 39k hp in no cp already with full procsets and infinite sustain.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that /s

Exactly.

ssewallb14_ESO

There's no way to do this without ruining tanks in harder PVE content. The best proposed solution so far is just to make Malacath only work on abilities.

BattleAxe

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

There's no way to do this without ruining tanks in harder PVE content. The best proposed solution so far is just to make Malacath only work on abilities.

A proposal which will be good for pve and should make proc sets less desirable in pvp is allow them to scale off offensive stats and keep them from being able to crit. This should make it so if you only use proc sets they will hit for very low damage however if you use a single proc set then build for damage with your remaining gear space you can have a pretty hard hitting proc.

In pve this will allow for more diversity in builds and a lot more breathing room in what sets are viable

Kadoin

HP% heals were the problem before the misguided massive heal changes, and they still remain so on live, and will continue to do so. When you don't have to invest stats to do something (like making a trade-off v. sustain) in the game like heal, reduce damage, or damage, that is where most of the balance issues occur.

For some reason that is hard for the current balance team to understand -- either that, or they simply don't care to actually listen to any feedback.

Lughlongarm

BattleAxe wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

There's no way to do this without ruining tanks in harder PVE content. The best proposed solution so far is just to make Malacath only work on abilities.

A proposal which will be good for pve and should make proc sets less desirable in pvp is allow them to scale off offensive stats and keep them from being able to crit. This should make it so if you only use proc sets they will hit for very low damage however if you use a single proc set then build for damage with your remaining gear space you can have a pretty hard hitting proc.

In pve this will allow for more diversity in builds and a lot more breathing room in what sets are viable

Good idea, but I'm not sure it will be enough to solve the issue with health based defensive skills. Heavy attack sets can already crit(several of them) and it is very easy to create 40k heavy attack builds which can produce very high burst damage. Just saw "kristofer eso" posting a build under the title "fake tank" as in tank that produces high damage. I don't think he is using proc sets on this build. In my opinion, High HP builds is just something the devs didn't think about when they made the changes to heals in PvP.

the1andonlyskwex

HP% heals aren't really all that good for PvE balance either. They're a big part of why so many people feel healers aren't necessary for most group content. If tanks can heal themselves, why have healers?

Machete

Nairinhe wrote: »

I'd rather see PVP removed altogether just so that nothing would be nerfed anymore because of it

Toxic lol

thadjarvis

BattleAxe wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

There's no way to do this without ruining tanks in harder PVE content. The best proposed solution so far is just to make Malacath only work on abilities.

A proposal which will be good for pve and should make proc sets less desirable in pvp is allow them to scale off offensive stats and keep them from being able to crit. This should make it so if you only use proc sets they will hit for very low damage however if you use a single proc set then build for damage with your remaining gear space you can have a pretty hard hitting proc.

In pve this will allow for more diversity in builds and a lot more breathing room in what sets are viable

I thought the whole purpose of proc sets was to raise the floor. Eg sets with stats that scale will produce more potential output (pressure, DPS, burst, etc) but takes skill to fully realize while proc on the other hand toss out a medium-high amount of output.

Though in PvP malacath and the changes to making many proc's easier to control make it easy to cram tons of damage into less GCDs that potentially a high skill player with stat based sets can't achieve. That's an issue.

Making proc sets scale on stats will put them into the same power category as stat based sets. Then proc sets will either be useless to all or best for everyone.

PvE Relequen was stupidly OP and being rightly brought down. It looks like many proc sets are close to stat sets next patch. Beginner/intermediate can use say Aegis Caller while advanced players would get more out of say AY. If that's the case PvE looks to be in a good spot. Dev's should have PvP should follow that pattern.

lucky_Sage

Nairinhe wrote: »

I'd rather see PVP removed altogether just so that nothing would be nerfed anymore because of it

Pvp does not cause all the nerfs sorry to tell you. A lot of the changes where made so beginner player could pull more dps in PVE.

ssewallb14_ESO

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

HP% heals aren't really all that good for PvE balance either. They're a big part of why so many people feel healers aren't necessary for most group content. If tanks can heal themselves, why have healers?

This isn't the case for newer hard modes. People who feel this way are likely playing content below their intended level of progression. Progression curve in this game is a different issue entirely.

kalunte

i've never seen any of them high hp procseter since malacath's release. i hope to see them at least once before any nerf comes

katorga

Firstmep wrote: »

Meanwhile my stamsorc has 39k hp in no cp already with full procsets and infinite sustain.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that /s

Yep, but that build can't kill me on its own, it lacks the damage and the cooldowns are too long. They proc builds "think" they are contributing, but there is someone else on the team putting in the work and carrying these builds.

The only "proc" build I really worry about is necro...tanky without going gimping itself with health. So it has raw skill damage + procs + defile. But that class doesn't even need procs.

Lughlongarm wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

There's no way to do this without ruining tanks in harder PVE content. The best proposed solution so far is just to make Malacath only work on abilities.

A proposal which will be good for pve and should make proc sets less desirable in pvp is allow them to scale off offensive stats and keep them from being able to crit. This should make it so if you only use proc sets they will hit for very low damage however if you use a single proc set then build for damage with your remaining gear space you can have a pretty hard hitting proc.

In pve this will allow for more diversity in builds and a lot more breathing room in what sets are viable

Good idea, but I'm not sure it will be enough to solve the issue with health based defensive skills. Heavy attack sets can already crit(several of them) and it is very easy to create 40k heavy attack builds which can produce very high burst damage. Just saw "kristofer eso" posting a build under the title "fake tank" as in tank that produces high damage. I don't think he is using proc sets on this build. In my opinion, High HP builds is just something the devs didn't think about when they made the changes to heals in PvP.

That build is more of a reaction to recent negative changes to templar than a viable build - basically trying to survice with blazing shield. He admits how limited it is in the voice over.

Lughlongarm

kalunte wrote: »

i've never seen any of them high hp procseter since malacath's release. i hope to see them at least once before any nerf comes

Have you not seen the 40k HP stamsorc build running Draugrkin's Grip+Dragon's Appetite + Malacath's Band of Brutality ?
Very popular in no CP. If you had stam sorc using "Flurry" on you, he was probably using this combo.

What about 40k HP+ hybrid warden ? Also very popular.

Hybrid 40k hp+ NB with heavy attack sets, saw it several times.

Lughlongarm

katorga wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Meanwhile my stamsorc has 39k hp in no cp already with full procsets and infinite sustain.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that /s

Yep, but that build can't kill me on its own, it lacks the damage and the cooldowns are too long. They proc builds "think" they are contributing, but there is someone else on the team putting in the work and carrying these builds.

The only "proc" build I really worry about is necro...tanky without going gimping itself with health. So it has raw skill damage + procs + defile. But that class doesn't even need procs.

Lughlongarm wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

There's no way to do this without ruining tanks in harder PVE content. The best proposed solution so far is just to make Malacath only work on abilities.

A proposal which will be good for pve and should make proc sets less desirable in pvp is allow them to scale off offensive stats and keep them from being able to crit. This should make it so if you only use proc sets they will hit for very low damage however if you use a single proc set then build for damage with your remaining gear space you can have a pretty hard hitting proc.

In pve this will allow for more diversity in builds and a lot more breathing room in what sets are viable

Good idea, but I'm not sure it will be enough to solve the issue with health based defensive skills. Heavy attack sets can already crit(several of them) and it is very easy to create 40k heavy attack builds which can produce very high burst damage. Just saw "kristofer eso" posting a build under the title "fake tank" as in tank that produces high damage. I don't think he is using proc sets on this build. In my opinion, High HP builds is just something the devs didn't think about when they made the changes to heals in PvP.

That build is more of a reaction to recent negative changes to templar than a viable build - basically trying to survice with blazing shield. He admits how limited it is in the voice over.

Could be, I have not watched the full video. May be a bad example.

Kadoin

katorga wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Meanwhile my stamsorc has 39k hp in no cp already with full procsets and infinite sustain.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that /s

Yep, but that build can't kill me on its own, it lacks the damage and the cooldowns are too long. They proc builds "think" they are contributing, but there is someone else on the team putting in the work and carrying these builds.

The only "proc" build I really worry about is necro...tanky without going gimping itself with health. So it has raw skill damage + procs + defile. But that class doesn't even need procs.

Lughlongarm wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

There's no way to do this without ruining tanks in harder PVE content. The best proposed solution so far is just to make Malacath only work on abilities.

A proposal which will be good for pve and should make proc sets less desirable in pvp is allow them to scale off offensive stats and keep them from being able to crit. This should make it so if you only use proc sets they will hit for very low damage however if you use a single proc set then build for damage with your remaining gear space you can have a pretty hard hitting proc.

In pve this will allow for more diversity in builds and a lot more breathing room in what sets are viable

Good idea, but I'm not sure it will be enough to solve the issue with health based defensive skills. Heavy attack sets can already crit(several of them) and it is very easy to create 40k heavy attack builds which can produce very high burst damage. Just saw "kristofer eso" posting a build under the title "fake tank" as in tank that produces high damage. I don't think he is using proc sets on this build. In my opinion, High HP builds is just something the devs didn't think about when they made the changes to heals in PvP.

That build is more of a reaction to recent negative changes to templar than a viable build - basically trying to survice with blazing shield. He admits how limited it is in the voice over.

Again, wardens, specifically mag warden, is the best class to proc on...

kalunte

either i did not opened my eyes wide enough or they did not bothered me enough for me to complain about. i'll focus more once servers comes back, promise=)