Why Malacath should NOT affect proc sets.

Pelican

The whole point of Malacath is to exchange the random lucky crits you get for more consistent damage. With Malacath on an average setup (not too much or little reliance on crit damage) against a typical opponent (not too much or little crit resist), you don't count on getting lucky with crits to kill, instead solely relying on how you time, cast and combo skills as they're gonna do the same damage all the time, while your overall damage output is still roughly the same. There's an obvious significant trade-off you're making: more potential burst damage for more consistent and reliable damage.

But proc sets benefit FULLY from malacath without ANY of its drawbacks, completely bypassing the trade-off you're SUPPOSED to make to gain such a powerful buff. And many of them are already hitting harder than most high-damage abilities and even ultimates without malacath. You have Caluurion's legacy hitting people for 7k+, maw of infernal doing 20% of overall damage on a high damage stat setup and icy conjuror/unleashed terror hitting as hard as DOTs during scalebreaker.

You're allowing already overperforming proc sets to benefit greatly from such a powerful set without bearing ANY of its significant trade-offs.

The fix is simple:
"Increases your damage done by 25%. You cannot deal critical damage." ---> "Increases your damage done *by abilities* by 25%. You cannot deal critical damage." That's it, just two words; no complex changes. You won't be nerfing anything, proc sets won't lose any damage from equipping it since they can't crit in the first place. Please don't let such an amazing set get abused like that with procs, and for heaven's sake PLEASE don't overdo changes and make it useless like you did with Thrassian Stranglers.

P.S. I'm referring solely to PvP only because Malacath clearly has no good use in PvE.

MurderMostFoul

They need to sell more Greymoor first.

Nser

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_GinaBruno

WrathOfInnos

Functionally this idea could work well and solve a potential problem, but IMO having an exception like that on a % damage increase set is a little unintuitive. Maybe it could just boost stats in a way that skills are increased by ~25%, but proc sets are not. I think this works out to something like 1500 Weapon and Spell Damage permanently, while still disabling all crits.

Alternatively there is the option to allow proc sets to crit, balance them according to this new rule, and then there would be a downside to Malacath + proc sets.

ne.ga.kurai_ESO

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Functionally this idea could work well and solve a potential problem, but IMO having an exception like that on a % damage increase set is a little unintuitive. Maybe it could just boost stats in a way that skills are increased by ~25%, but proc sets are not. I think this works out to something like 1500 Weapon and Spell Damage permanently, while still disabling all crits.

Alternatively there is the option to allow proc sets to crit, balance them according to this new rule, and then there would be a downside to Malacath + proc sets.

If you do that percentage amps are just going to drive it higher than intended, and stam users will get buffed more. Pelican's proposal should just go straight into 6.1.2, so we can move on to balancing the rest of these stupid proc sets. You know they will do something eventually and this is a better option than them nerfing Malacath from 25% to 10%.

This will let people have their fun with the Mythic w/o needing to kneejerk nerf it.

Mayrael

Totally agree with OP. I know, I get it, everyone has a vision of them using 3 proc sets with malacath and it shows you the pile of enemy bodies with you on top of it, but take into consideration you will be one of those bodies on the pile in someone's else vision.

Malacath should not work with proc sets, and this has to be done before we will enter proc meta because it will end in totally gutting this item. Having more options is always awesome, under one condition though: those options have to be balanced. If not, one of them will always became meta and eventually it will end at graveyard.

Foto1

Malacath should affect proc sets. with this change, this set will be killed

BohnT2

Foto1 wrote: »

Malacath should affect proc sets. with this change, this set will be killed

No it shouldn't and the set would still be incredibly powerful for every build.
Unless you're investing heavily in crit damage, malacath will outperform your crits and is much stronger overall.

For classes which don't get any additional crit damage there is no reason not to run malacath offensive wise you're not getting that much bang for your buck with any other set not to mention that malacath can be slapped on almost every set combination giving you access to a monster set and two 5pc sets along with the juicy 25% damage boost in the formula at the cost of having only one 5pc bonuses active depending on which bar you're on.

Thoragaal

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

They need to sell more Greymoor first.

As much as a dislike being cynical, I have to agree with this.
We see it time and time again, every DLC or Chapter has some obvious overpowered things in it. These overpowered things shouldn't even have passed the first stage in it's creation, if the intent was to produce a well thought out and balanced result. But these phenomena, time and time again, pass every single stage in the development even after people giving warnings and feedback that it's clearly overperforming.
It's not until after several months after it's release that we Might see a change.. and the change happens when enough people have bough the new DLC/Chapter in order to abuse it's obvious overperformance.

It's like ZOS only views it as a problem if enough people are using it to cause a problem; if one player abuse it, then who cares. And, of course it goes hand in hand with the more people having access to it; buying the new DLC/Chapter. It's no accident, and good arguments can be made on both sides of the issue. It's only by comparing the argument against the over arching long term goal (the meta goal, if you will) that we see if the argument actually holds up or not.. but of course people don't like to go into details about that, because they don't want to be limited.
You see these kind of vague and ambiguous answers, all the time, from Any person with any kind of responsability. For example politicians, lawyers and/or CEO's.

Sheuib

Malacath is going to be pointless if it doesn't effect proc sets. If I am running all stat sets which all boost my crit why would I want to sacrifice the potential burst in PVP? Even at a low crit chance you usually get at least one of you abilities to crit in your combo. If you are building all proc sets you are basically going for a pressure build not a burst build and that is the only time that malacath makes sense.

BohnT2

Sheuib wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Totally agree with OP. I know, I get it, everyone has a vision of them using 3 proc sets with malacath and it shows you the pile of enemy bodies with you on top of it, but take into consideration you will be one of those bodies on the pile in someone's else vision.

Malacath should not work with proc sets, and this has to be done before we will enter proc meta because it will end in totally gutting this item. Having more options is always awesome, under one condition though: those options have to be balanced. If not, one of them will always became meta and eventually it will end at graveyard.

You can't run three proc sets with malacath. The simple fact of running malacath makes you have to drop one of your proc sets.

Maybe you should rethink posting such a blatantly false statement.
You can run the following set combinations including 3 damage procs with no issue:
2pc monster set 1pc malacath 3pc proc set 1 on body 3pc proc set2 +1pc trainee and then 2pc proc set 1 on front bar weapon and 2pc proc set2 backbar weapon.

Sets that can be used for this with no issue: icy conjurer, caluurion, fame blossom, widow maker, unleashed terror, plague slinger and the list goes on and on.

You can also run an ability altering weapon (here referred to as AAW) proc like blackrose bow, blackrose destro or maelstrom 2h.
2pc monster, 3 pc proc set1 on body, 2pc AAW front bar, 2pc trainee 2pc agility/endurance/willpower... and 2pc proc set1 backbar weapon.

Sheuib

BohnT2 wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Totally agree with OP. I know, I get it, everyone has a vision of them using 3 proc sets with malacath and it shows you the pile of enemy bodies with you on top of it, but take into consideration you will be one of those bodies on the pile in someone's else vision.

Malacath should not work with proc sets, and this has to be done before we will enter proc meta because it will end in totally gutting this item. Having more options is always awesome, under one condition though: those options have to be balanced. If not, one of them will always became meta and eventually it will end at graveyard.

You can't run three proc sets with malacath. The simple fact of running malacath makes you have to drop one of your proc sets.

Maybe you should rethink posting such a blatantly false statement.
You can run the following set combinations including 3 damage procs with no issue:
2pc monster set 1pc malacath 3pc proc set 1 on body 3pc proc set2 +1pc trainee and then 2pc proc set 1 on front bar weapon and 2pc proc set2 backbar weapon.

Sets that can be used for this with no issue: icy conjurer, caluurion, fame blossom, widow maker, unleashed terror, plague slinger and the list goes on and on.

You can also run an ability altering weapon (here referred to as AAW) proc like blackrose bow, blackrose destro or maelstrom 2h.
2pc monster, 3 pc proc set1 on body, 2pc AAW front bar, 2pc trainee 2pc agility/endurance/willpower... and 2pc proc set1 backbar weapon.

I changed it right after I posted it.

relentless_turnip

Sheuib wrote: »

Malacath is going to be pointless if it doesn't effect proc sets. If I am running all stat sets which all boost my crit why would I want to sacrifice the potential burst in PVP? Even at a low crit chance you usually get at least one of you abilities to crit in your combo. If you are building all proc sets you are basically going for a pressure build not a burst build and that is the only time that malacath makes sense.

You can achieve the same thing with dots though? Malacath is fantastic if you build for it and it doesn't need proc sets to make it so.

My bleed Stam sorc:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=179855

Buffs my bleeds, double dot poison on my weapon and hurricane. A lot of pressure!


My magdk(the meta) buffs the dots and grothdaar, but the grothdaar buff wouldn't really be missed.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=244723

HankTwo

Sheuib wrote: »

Malacath is going to be pointless if it doesn't effect proc sets. If I am running all stat sets which all boost my crit why would I want to sacrifice the potential burst in PVP? Even at a low crit chance you usually get at least one of you abilities to crit in your combo. If you are building all proc sets you are basically going for a pressure build not a burst build and that is the only time that malacath makes sense.

Thats simply false. Malacath is very strong, to the point of being bis, in case of any heavy armor build with only one or no additional crit damage modifiers. Even in case of light or medium armor builds with one additional crit damage buff (in no CP ~30% crit chance and 1.6x damage) malacath is still a good choice. Only when both your crit chance and crit damage reach pretty high levels (at least around 40% chance and 1.7x damage) there are definitely better choices.

Generally, in no CP the only builds where malacath is subpar are:
- light or medium armor templars and nightblades with major crit chance buff and at least one additional crit damage modifier (minor force, Khajiit, mundus, ...)
- bomb, gank and burst nb builds that rely on guaranteed crit from cloak
- sorcs that rely on critical surge for self healing
- dedicated crit builds (obviously)

And btw, since this doesnt seem obvious to you: all abilities in your combo getting 25% damage buff > one ability in your combo critting.

HankTwo

That being said , I fully agree that malacath should only buff damage instances that could crit to begin with, since stuff like procs get all the benefit without being affected by the balancing disadvantage of the set. However, this should also include light and heavy attacks, and all other types of damage that can crit, not just abilities.

Beyond that, the set might even deserve a small (!) nerf to its damage buff on top. But personally I would wait and see how the removal of buffing proc damage would play out first. What I really like about malacath is that it was a very nice buff to hybrid builds, so I definitely dont want it to be nerfed to the ground.

kalunte

should, shouldnt, could..

your points have already been pointed my many and there's no add to the base debate of dmg procsets. malacath on its own just do what it's supposed to do and it has not been so dominating since it's out. if it was, just like thrassian, it would have been nerf with 6.1 .

if you have some more insight about it i'd be glad to read it

Lord-Otto

kalunte wrote: »

should, shouldnt, could..

your points have already been pointed my many and there's no add to the base debate of dmg procsets. malacath on its own just do what it's supposed to do and it has not been so dominating since it's out. if it was, just like thrassian, it would have been nerf with 6.1 .

if you have some more insight about it i'd be glad to read it

You're giving up crit damage on skills for Malacath. You're giving up NO damage on proc sets for Malacath. Can't make it clearer than that.
And Malacath IS getting nerfed in 6.1 - Impenetrable is getting nerfed, so you're giving up MORE crit damage for Malacath.

BohnT2

kalunte wrote: »

should, shouldnt, could..

your points have already been pointed my many and there's no add to the base debate of dmg procsets. malacath on its own just do what it's supposed to do and it has not been so dominating since it's out. if it was, just like thrassian, it would have been nerf with 6.1 .

if you have some more insight about it i'd be glad to read it

There is no more depth in this discussion it's so simply that a toddler can understand it.
Malacath buffs procs and therefore makes them too powerful.
Anyone without bias can see this and there is no reason to keep it this way.

You haven't provided anything meaningful in any discussion about procs and malacath neither in this post nor in mine or the others, stop defending overperforming things due to your own bias.
Rianai has given you enough data to see how procs are unbalanced and unhealthy read that up again.

xaraan

There is no reason to use Malacath band otherwise IMO unless on a handful of very niche low crit builds. I'm not going to give up my build where I'll crit half the time in a fight for 88% bonus damage, even with impen that's better than 25% ongoing and having to drop a bonus from 5/5/2 makes it even more of a no-go for me. Sure, you can backbar a set and take advantage of a "proc" so you don't lose the 5 pc, but if we are going to make it not work on procs, then how about ALL procs. Even procs that just buff damage, procs that heal, procs that give any effect. You'd be shocked how many people use procs that don't even count them as procs.

Personally, I think just some adjustments need to be made to procs themselves, instead of nerfing generally all these things in connection to them like crits.

idk

nvm

StamPlar_1976

How about a big fat no to your proposal.

Stx

Sheuib wrote: »

Malacath is going to be pointless if it doesn't effect proc sets. If I am running all stat sets which all boost my crit why would I want to sacrifice the potential burst in PVP? Even at a low crit chance you usually get at least one of you abilities to crit in your combo. If you are building all proc sets you are basically going for a pressure build not a burst build and that is the only time that malacath makes sense.

100% incorrect. Malacath will still be good without proc sets because crit resistance in pvp is so strong. If you dont invest in crit damage, then malacath is a clear boost.

It makes no sense that malacath would boost proc sets because they can't crit anyway.

kalunte

there is a difference between malacath's band making dmg proc sets more powerfull and making them too powerfull. no one here is right to judge that since no one knows ZoS combat team maths.

those complain where adressed at 6.0 for malacath, it came out the way it was supposed to came out anyway, so, again, i dont see anything knew that could justify a nerf of it, that's all. saying that procset can work (with or without malacath) isnt something new. bashing it does not make it more true.

BohnT2

kalunte wrote: »

there is a difference between malacath's band making dmg proc sets more powerfull and making them too powerfull. no one here is right to judge that since no one knows ZoS combat team maths.

those complain where adressed at 6.0 for malacath, it came out the way it was supposed to came out anyway, so, again, i dont see anything knew that could justify a nerf of it, that's all. saying that procset can work (with or without malacath) isnt something new. bashing it does not make it more true.

What the hell is that reasoning?
Zos has failed times and times again with numbers when it comes to pvp and had to be corrected by the community that what they did is wrong and unbalanced.

You have been invited to PTS to prove how you'll do [snip] about malacath affecting proc damage on a proc build.
[snip]

[edited for baiting]

Cinbri

According to lore-tooltip Malacath ring enraging person that wears it. Didnt know that armor we wear have feelings too... hope my left glove wont read it.

Sugaroverdose

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Alternatively there is the option to allow proc sets to crit, balance them according to this new rule, and then there would be a downside to Malacath + proc sets.

And dark time of [snip] all around will reappear instantly.
Procsets did deal critical damage 3 years ago and it was the [snip] time to play PvP

[edited for filter bypass]