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Queen Ayrenn's age?
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RaddlemanNumber7✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I think it was just a mistake. A change was made in one part of the game and other parts of the game were not adjusted accordingly. By the time the discrepancy was discovered it was uneconomic to fix, so the devs decided to make it a feature. They would leave Ayrenn's two different ages in the game to serve as a piece of enigmatic-looking nerd bait.
Task failed successfully!PC EU0 -
The_Drop_Bear✭✭✭Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Isn't 28yo quite young for an elf? Like isn't that still an adolescent in elven age?
Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
Based on this source we can roughly make the following calculation: if 300 Elven years are 100 human years, then 28 Elven years are.. 9 human years
. She's not quite young - she's way too young 
. Anyway, her psychology is human enough to be adult in her 27. I wonder what changes in Elven mindset happen through their lives said to be that long. I doubt it should be equal to human one. The same calculation for Nerevar based on the dates of the First Era battles he fought, shows the age of the Hortator was close to 300 years making him a very old but still good fighter. Still, I've met no fan art depicting him that old - he's always young there.
That statement isn't true. There are far too many elves of 200 or 300 plus for that to work.
We also have the ESO loremaster state Ng that unless it lore is credited by a in universe source (like in the Q&A with the demiprince from the malestorm arena) then it's not canon.
Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
In Skyrim a dunmer farmer must be atleast 230+ as she remembers the city of vivec before the fall of the tribunal. And according to the games code she is 30.
1 -
Aigym_Hlervu✭✭✭✭✭The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Isn't 28yo quite young for an elf? Like isn't that still an adolescent in elven age?
Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
Based on this source we can roughly make the following calculation: if 300 Elven years are 100 human years, then 28 Elven years are.. 9 human years. She's not quite young - she's way too young . Anyway, her psychology is human enough to be adult in her 27. I wonder what changes in Elven mindset happen through their lives said to be that long. I doubt it should be equal to human one. The same calculation for Nerevar based on the dates of the First Era battles he fought, shows the age of the Hortator was close to 300 years making him a very old but still good fighter. Still, I've met no fan art depicting him that old - he's always young there.
That statement isn't true. There are far too many elves of 200 or 300 plus for that to work.
We also have the ESO loremaster state Ng that unless it lore is credited by a in universe source (like in the Q&A with the demiprince from the malestorm arena) then it's not canon.
Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
In Skyrim a dunmer farmer must be atleast 230+ as she remembers the city of vivec before the fall of the tribunal. And according to the games code she is 30.
Could you give me the links to those in-game sources stating the Elves generally can live up to 1000 years naturally? That's interesting.
Yes, there are many of those old Mer: Divayth is 4000 years old, Dratha, Therana and Gothren are at least 760 - 800 - but how does this all contradict the statement of the dev's I qouted? Your mesasage does not make it a false one yet. Please, check this post of mine - it contains all the information and the respective links to the sources on what should be considered true. I also left the time stamps (I think you won't find them anywhere else on the Internet) in that huge several hour video in order to help everyone to find those words I qouted in that post and to check it personally. Though, if I miss some current in-game information regarding the Elven life spans, the information contradicting the words of the devs I qouted above, or maybe the devs said something new on it making the initial stament obsolete - please, share it, I'd appreciate it much.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I recalled this thread on life expectancy: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457687/different-races-life-expectancy
My comment then wasVaranisArano wrote: »Dunmer ages are weird.
We've got Telvanni wizards like Divayth Fyr (at least 4000 years old) and Neloth, who's a old man in Morrowind and reappears in Skyrim.
We've got Barenziah, who had an affair with Talos at the start of the 3rd era and is an old woman by the time of Tribunal at the end of the 3rd era.
We've got this official interview. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Interview_with_a_Dark_Elf
"We've always been curious about the lifespan of elves. We all know they live much longer than all other races, is this true for the Dunmer as well? How many years would it take for you to be considered 'old'?
Alvur Relds: Well, I'm fifty, done my twenty years in the Service, and I'm in the prime of life. I expect another fifty good years, and then I'll be old, and slow, chatting with gaffers around the hearth for another twenty, thirty years. I've known mer still mind-sharp in their late hundreds, and heard of folk 200 and older. My family usually makes it to 120-130, providing we don't get sick or poked in the eye."
So the general thought seems to be that Dunmer live around 200 to 300 years, with certain individuals living longer.
And as noted, we've got the ESO AUA source: ZOS' Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4, from May 2013
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/481
Something I would like to point out is the examples of long-lived Dunmer listed so far are either wizards or the rich and powerful, i.e. individuals who can extend their lifespan via magic or who aren't living a hard or risky lifestyle. If there are counterexamples, I'd be interested to hear it!2 -
The_Drop_Bear✭✭✭Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Isn't 28yo quite young for an elf? Like isn't that still an adolescent in elven age?
Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
Based on this source we can roughly make the following calculation: if 300 Elven years are 100 human years, then 28 Elven years are.. 9 human years. She's not quite young - she's way too young . Anyway, her psychology is human enough to be adult in her 27. I wonder what changes in Elven mindset happen through their lives said to be that long. I doubt it should be equal to human one. The same calculation for Nerevar based on the dates of the First Era battles he fought, shows the age of the Hortator was close to 300 years making him a very old but still good fighter. Still, I've met no fan art depicting him that old - he's always young there.
That statement isn't true. There are far too many elves of 200 or 300 plus for that to work.
We also have the ESO loremaster state Ng that unless it lore is credited by a in universe source (like in the Q&A with the demiprince from the malestorm arena) then it's not canon.
Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
In Skyrim a dunmer farmer must be atleast 230+ as she remembers the city of vivec before the fall of the tribunal. And according to the games code she is 30.
Could you give me the links to those in-game sources stating the Elves generally can live up to 1000 years naturally? That's interesting.
Yes, there are many of those old Mer: Divayth is 4000 years old, Dratha, Therana and Gothren are at least 760 - 800 - but how does this all contradict the statement of the dev's I qouted? Your mesasage does not make it a false one yet. Please, check this post of mine - it contains all the information and the respective links to the sources on what should be considered true. I also left the time stamps (I think you won't find them anywhere else on the Internet) in that huge several hour video in order to help everyone to find those words I qouted in that post and to check it personally. Though, if I miss some current in-game information regarding the Elven life spans, the information contradicting the words of the devs I qouted above, or maybe the devs said something new on it making the initial stament obsolete - please, share it, I'd appreciate it much.
"contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could."
- The Real Barenziah (only in game source on elves live span) been in the games since daggerfall and although some of the more explicit bits have been removed that bit hasn't.
“Unless it's credited to a Tamrielic source, e.g., "According to Beredalmo the Signifier...", marketing copy should not be considered to represent in-world lore.”
-Eso loremaster when asked about whether Dev statements are considered canon.
Which means the statement about the 200-300 year life is not canon.
And as for elven lifespans
Symmachus - age at death 375 in battle, born to commoner parents (although he did become powerful later in life) wasn't a mage.
Vorien Direnni - was atleast 610+ and still alive, not a mage claims to be nothing special
Barenziah - 430+ rough childhood, but she was royal
Rythe Lythandas - 230+ commoner
Avrusa Serethi - 230+ commoner game code describes her as 40.
Ambarys Rendar - 210+ in game age is default which is 20's
Almost of all known elf ages was complied.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-pfucjLX5KVhcSPwGR3O9oSZaUdQyExUPszq7K3pwXZIdqylVeWXlaoXJX_h6WabsJsjv_JIwgXzxGZshzOBYXIPS_C7fu3s3dPC3nArRAMJL2MBD2YxoClBE0rZ2sEborRvWZ40
With the main peaks being in the 200's and 300's.
In real life such a graph would peak in the 20's or 30's.
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Aigym_Hlervu✭✭✭✭✭The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Isn't 28yo quite young for an elf? Like isn't that still an adolescent in elven age?
Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
Based on this source we can roughly make the following calculation: if 300 Elven years are 100 human years, then 28 Elven years are.. 9 human years. She's not quite young - she's way too young . Anyway, her psychology is human enough to be adult in her 27. I wonder what changes in Elven mindset happen through their lives said to be that long. I doubt it should be equal to human one. The same calculation for Nerevar based on the dates of the First Era battles he fought, shows the age of the Hortator was close to 300 years making him a very old but still good fighter. Still, I've met no fan art depicting him that old - he's always young there.
That statement isn't true. There are far too many elves of 200 or 300 plus for that to work.
We also have the ESO loremaster state Ng that unless it lore is credited by a in universe source (like in the Q&A with the demiprince from the malestorm arena) then it's not canon.
Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
In Skyrim a dunmer farmer must be atleast 230+ as she remembers the city of vivec before the fall of the tribunal. And according to the games code she is 30.
Could you give me the links to those in-game sources stating the Elves generally can live up to 1000 years naturally? That's interesting.
Yes, there are many of those old Mer: Divayth is 4000 years old, Dratha, Therana and Gothren are at least 760 - 800 - but how does this all contradict the statement of the dev's I qouted? Your mesasage does not make it a false one yet. Please, check this post of mine - it contains all the information and the respective links to the sources on what should be considered true. I also left the time stamps (I think you won't find them anywhere else on the Internet) in that huge several hour video in order to help everyone to find those words I qouted in that post and to check it personally. Though, if I miss some current in-game information regarding the Elven life spans, the information contradicting the words of the devs I qouted above, or maybe the devs said something new on it making the initial stament obsolete - please, share it, I'd appreciate it much.
"contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could."
- The Real Barenziah (only in game source on elves live span) been in the games since daggerfall and although some of the more explicit bits have been removed that bit hasn't.
“Unless it's credited to a Tamrielic source, e.g., "According to Beredalmo the Signifier...", marketing copy should not be considered to represent in-world lore.”
-Eso loremaster when asked about whether Dev statements are considered canon.
Which means the statement about the 200-300 year life is not canon.
Ah, the Unreal Barenziah. Hmm, interesting.. Thank you! So how should we deal with this:
1. The Real Barenziah in TES II, the original book consisting of 10 parts, Part III you've qouted - "Katisha's face briefly wore the wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand year life span that elves were entitled to by nature. True, few ever actually lived that long, as disease and violence took a toll, but they could.".
2. The Real Barenziah seen TES III - V, the updated 5 volume book- "Katisha's face briefly wore the envious, wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could. And one or two of them actually did.".
3. According to the Interview with Alvur Relds - "Well, I'm fifty, done my twenty years in the Service, and I'm in the prime of life. I expect another fifty good years, and then I'll be old, and slow, chatting with gaffers around the hearth for another twenty, thirty years. I've known mer still mind-sharp in their late hundreds, and heard of folk 200 and older. My family usually makes it to 120-130, providing we don't get sick or poked in the eye.".
4. Most of the examples you gave do not expand beyond 1000 years and the rest of over 300 years are quite discussable and depend much on speculation.
This all still supports the devs qoute I gave at the very beginning and still makes it canon even within that 2017 Mr. Schick's commentary. This all and contradicts your statement thatThe_Drop_Bear wrote: »Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
I see the only one source saying it and it makes a crucial remark that only one or two of those Elves actually did it. Am I still missing something?2 -
RaddlemanNumber7✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Is this the real Queen Ayrenn?
Looks like a positive ID to me...
That nose can't lie. Clearly a nod in the direction of one particular future
PC EU2 -
Eporem✭✭✭RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »Is this the real Queen Ayrenn?
Looks like a positive ID to me...
That nose can't lie. Clearly a nod in the direction of one particular future
so funny @RaddlemanNumber7
though the way the writers write the lore I think it to be of the past...an Ancestor of Queen Ayrenn drawn on this Malondo stone, that bears a likeness to Ayrenn0 -
The_Drop_Bear✭✭✭Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Isn't 28yo quite young for an elf? Like isn't that still an adolescent in elven age?
Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
Based on this source we can roughly make the following calculation: if 300 Elven years are 100 human years, then 28 Elven years are.. 9 human years. She's not quite young - she's way too young . Anyway, her psychology is human enough to be adult in her 27. I wonder what changes in Elven mindset happen through their lives said to be that long. I doubt it should be equal to human one. The same calculation for Nerevar based on the dates of the First Era battles he fought, shows the age of the Hortator was close to 300 years making him a very old but still good fighter. Still, I've met no fan art depicting him that old - he's always young there.
That statement isn't true. There are far too many elves of 200 or 300 plus for that to work.
We also have the ESO loremaster state Ng that unless it lore is credited by a in universe source (like in the Q&A with the demiprince from the malestorm arena) then it's not canon.
Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
In Skyrim a dunmer farmer must be atleast 230+ as she remembers the city of vivec before the fall of the tribunal. And according to the games code she is 30.
Could you give me the links to those in-game sources stating the Elves generally can live up to 1000 years naturally? That's interesting.
Yes, there are many of those old Mer: Divayth is 4000 years old, Dratha, Therana and Gothren are at least 760 - 800 - but how does this all contradict the statement of the dev's I qouted? Your mesasage does not make it a false one yet. Please, check this post of mine - it contains all the information and the respective links to the sources on what should be considered true. I also left the time stamps (I think you won't find them anywhere else on the Internet) in that huge several hour video in order to help everyone to find those words I qouted in that post and to check it personally. Though, if I miss some current in-game information regarding the Elven life spans, the information contradicting the words of the devs I qouted above, or maybe the devs said something new on it making the initial stament obsolete - please, share it, I'd appreciate it much.
"contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could."
- The Real Barenziah (only in game source on elves live span) been in the games since daggerfall and although some of the more explicit bits have been removed that bit hasn't.
“Unless it's credited to a Tamrielic source, e.g., "According to Beredalmo the Signifier...", marketing copy should not be considered to represent in-world lore.”
-Eso loremaster when asked about whether Dev statements are considered canon.
Which means the statement about the 200-300 year life is not canon.
Ah, the Unreal Barenziah. Hmm, interesting.. Thank you! So how should we deal with this:
1. The Real Barenziah in TES II, the original book consisting of 10 parts, Part III you've qouted - "Katisha's face briefly wore the wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand year life span that elves were entitled to by nature. True, few ever actually lived that long, as disease and violence took a toll, but they could.".
2. The Real Barenziah seen TES III - V, the updated 5 volume book- "Katisha's face briefly wore the envious, wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could. And one or two of them actually did.".
3. According to the Interview with Alvur Relds - "Well, I'm fifty, done my twenty years in the Service, and I'm in the prime of life. I expect another fifty good years, and then I'll be old, and slow, chatting with gaffers around the hearth for another twenty, thirty years. I've known mer still mind-sharp in their late hundreds, and heard of folk 200 and older. My family usually makes it to 120-130, providing we don't get sick or poked in the eye.".
4. Most of the examples you gave do not expand beyond 1000 years and the rest of over 300 years are quite discussable and depend much on speculation.
This all still supports the devs qoute I gave at the very beginning and still makes it canon even within that 2017 Mr. Schick's commentary. This all and contradicts your statement thatThe_Drop_Bear wrote: »Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
I see the only one source saying it and it makes a crucial remark that only one or two of those Elves actually did it. Am I still missing something?
Interview with Alvur is old, and the fact that there are so many elves who are much older than that, and yet the game code makes them out to be 20-40 shows that it very much not considered canon. Unless his family had some sort of genetic disease that killed them all early in life.
Look at the link I gave showing the peak ages at 200-300, in real life the peak is between 30-40, which would add up to elves being able to live 1000 years.0 -
Aigym_Hlervu✭✭✭✭✭The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Isn't 28yo quite young for an elf? Like isn't that still an adolescent in elven age?
Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
Based on this source we can roughly make the following calculation: if 300 Elven years are 100 human years, then 28 Elven years are.. 9 human years. She's not quite young - she's way too young . Anyway, her psychology is human enough to be adult in her 27. I wonder what changes in Elven mindset happen through their lives said to be that long. I doubt it should be equal to human one. The same calculation for Nerevar based on the dates of the First Era battles he fought, shows the age of the Hortator was close to 300 years making him a very old but still good fighter. Still, I've met no fan art depicting him that old - he's always young there.
That statement isn't true. There are far too many elves of 200 or 300 plus for that to work.
We also have the ESO loremaster state Ng that unless it lore is credited by a in universe source (like in the Q&A with the demiprince from the malestorm arena) then it's not canon.
Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
In Skyrim a dunmer farmer must be atleast 230+ as she remembers the city of vivec before the fall of the tribunal. And according to the games code she is 30.
Could you give me the links to those in-game sources stating the Elves generally can live up to 1000 years naturally? That's interesting.
Yes, there are many of those old Mer: Divayth is 4000 years old, Dratha, Therana and Gothren are at least 760 - 800 - but how does this all contradict the statement of the dev's I qouted? Your mesasage does not make it a false one yet. Please, check this post of mine - it contains all the information and the respective links to the sources on what should be considered true. I also left the time stamps (I think you won't find them anywhere else on the Internet) in that huge several hour video in order to help everyone to find those words I qouted in that post and to check it personally. Though, if I miss some current in-game information regarding the Elven life spans, the information contradicting the words of the devs I qouted above, or maybe the devs said something new on it making the initial stament obsolete - please, share it, I'd appreciate it much.
"contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could."
- The Real Barenziah (only in game source on elves live span) been in the games since daggerfall and although some of the more explicit bits have been removed that bit hasn't.
“Unless it's credited to a Tamrielic source, e.g., "According to Beredalmo the Signifier...", marketing copy should not be considered to represent in-world lore.”
-Eso loremaster when asked about whether Dev statements are considered canon.
Which means the statement about the 200-300 year life is not canon.
Ah, the Unreal Barenziah. Hmm, interesting.. Thank you! So how should we deal with this:
1. The Real Barenziah in TES II, the original book consisting of 10 parts, Part III you've qouted - "Katisha's face briefly wore the wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand year life span that elves were entitled to by nature. True, few ever actually lived that long, as disease and violence took a toll, but they could.".
2. The Real Barenziah seen TES III - V, the updated 5 volume book- "Katisha's face briefly wore the envious, wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could. And one or two of them actually did.".
3. According to the Interview with Alvur Relds - "Well, I'm fifty, done my twenty years in the Service, and I'm in the prime of life. I expect another fifty good years, and then I'll be old, and slow, chatting with gaffers around the hearth for another twenty, thirty years. I've known mer still mind-sharp in their late hundreds, and heard of folk 200 and older. My family usually makes it to 120-130, providing we don't get sick or poked in the eye.".
4. Most of the examples you gave do not expand beyond 1000 years and the rest of over 300 years are quite discussable and depend much on speculation.
This all still supports the devs qoute I gave at the very beginning and still makes it canon even within that 2017 Mr. Schick's commentary. This all and contradicts your statement thatThe_Drop_Bear wrote: »Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
I see the only one source saying it and it makes a crucial remark that only one or two of those Elves actually did it. Am I still missing something?
Interview with Alvur is old, and the fact that there are so many elves who are much older than that, and yet the game code makes them out to be 20-40 shows that it very much not considered canon. Unless his family had some sort of genetic disease that killed them all early in life.
Look at the link I gave showing the peak ages at 200-300, in real life the peak is between 30-40, which would add up to elves being able to live 1000 years.
The Interview is not older than the first edition of the Real Barenziah you gave the reference to. Why it's age makes you consider it to be no more canon while your own reference of an even greater age was not taken into the same consideration? You took an obsolete edition of that book - what if I was not aware of the newer one's existance? Reading your reply, I see it as if you made it intentionally.. I think it is not fair. The age of the material is not the reason to consider it to be false, otherwise I would have made a certain reference to TES authorities' words I gave the link to above regarding it and I would have outlined a specific number of years of a material's canon status expiration. Nonetheless, a meterial is canon if it suits the requirements stated by the devs and if it is not updated by the same material of the same status. We have no official reasons to consider that interview no more canon, so that one is still canon.
Now regarding the game code - well, if we consider it a part of the game lore, then we should also consider Nerevar to be canonically Dunmer instead of a Chimer, based on his in-game 3D model seen in the Clockwork City
We should also consider the Summerset walking spirits of the Ancients to be the spirits of the Ayleids along with much of my own New Elven Chronology theory - that case it should be treated as something canon (though, it is just a theory, nothing more). I have seen the link and the diagram - that was interesting, thank you! But then again, this is not something canon itself. This is all a speculation and is not a topic of our discussion.
Asking if I missed something, I meant a direct link to an in-game source, or an out-of-game direct commentary of a dev or an Interview of an in-game character, stating that the Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
is
and thatThe_Drop_Bear wrote: »That statement isn't true.The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
So, my question is what source am I missing that supports your statement that the Elves naturally live 1000 years in their vast majority without any direct magical intervention? All the sources we have discussed here, both yours and mine, still support the Developers' AUA: Variety Pack 4 words I gave the link to from the very beginning. By the way, I don't seek ways to win this arguement and somehow make you feel uncomfortable - my point is to know the lore better and share the knowledge I already possess. Thus if there are the sources I ask for, share them, please, and I will admit I was wrong while you were right. Otherwise I expect you to be a bit more honest then you were when you gave an obsolete link to the "Real Barenziah" and ignored my remark on it.2 -
The_Drop_Bear✭✭✭Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Isn't 28yo quite young for an elf? Like isn't that still an adolescent in elven age?
Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
Based on this source we can roughly make the following calculation: if 300 Elven years are 100 human years, then 28 Elven years are.. 9 human years. She's not quite young - she's way too young . Anyway, her psychology is human enough to be adult in her 27. I wonder what changes in Elven mindset happen through their lives said to be that long. I doubt it should be equal to human one. The same calculation for Nerevar based on the dates of the First Era battles he fought, shows the age of the Hortator was close to 300 years making him a very old but still good fighter. Still, I've met no fan art depicting him that old - he's always young there.
That statement isn't true. There are far too many elves of 200 or 300 plus for that to work.
We also have the ESO loremaster state Ng that unless it lore is credited by a in universe source (like in the Q&A with the demiprince from the malestorm arena) then it's not canon.
Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
In Skyrim a dunmer farmer must be atleast 230+ as she remembers the city of vivec before the fall of the tribunal. And according to the games code she is 30.
Could you give me the links to those in-game sources stating the Elves generally can live up to 1000 years naturally? That's interesting.
Yes, there are many of those old Mer: Divayth is 4000 years old, Dratha, Therana and Gothren are at least 760 - 800 - but how does this all contradict the statement of the dev's I qouted? Your mesasage does not make it a false one yet. Please, check this post of mine - it contains all the information and the respective links to the sources on what should be considered true. I also left the time stamps (I think you won't find them anywhere else on the Internet) in that huge several hour video in order to help everyone to find those words I qouted in that post and to check it personally. Though, if I miss some current in-game information regarding the Elven life spans, the information contradicting the words of the devs I qouted above, or maybe the devs said something new on it making the initial stament obsolete - please, share it, I'd appreciate it much.
"contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could."
- The Real Barenziah (only in game source on elves live span) been in the games since daggerfall and although some of the more explicit bits have been removed that bit hasn't.
“Unless it's credited to a Tamrielic source, e.g., "According to Beredalmo the Signifier...", marketing copy should not be considered to represent in-world lore.”
-Eso loremaster when asked about whether Dev statements are considered canon.
Which means the statement about the 200-300 year life is not canon.
Ah, the Unreal Barenziah. Hmm, interesting.. Thank you! So how should we deal with this:
1. The Real Barenziah in TES II, the original book consisting of 10 parts, Part III you've qouted - "Katisha's face briefly wore the wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand year life span that elves were entitled to by nature. True, few ever actually lived that long, as disease and violence took a toll, but they could.".
2. The Real Barenziah seen TES III - V, the updated 5 volume book- "Katisha's face briefly wore the envious, wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could. And one or two of them actually did.".
3. According to the Interview with Alvur Relds - "Well, I'm fifty, done my twenty years in the Service, and I'm in the prime of life. I expect another fifty good years, and then I'll be old, and slow, chatting with gaffers around the hearth for another twenty, thirty years. I've known mer still mind-sharp in their late hundreds, and heard of folk 200 and older. My family usually makes it to 120-130, providing we don't get sick or poked in the eye.".
4. Most of the examples you gave do not expand beyond 1000 years and the rest of over 300 years are quite discussable and depend much on speculation.
This all still supports the devs qoute I gave at the very beginning and still makes it canon even within that 2017 Mr. Schick's commentary. This all and contradicts your statement thatThe_Drop_Bear wrote: »Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
I see the only one source saying it and it makes a crucial remark that only one or two of those Elves actually did it. Am I still missing something?
Interview with Alvur is old, and the fact that there are so many elves who are much older than that, and yet the game code makes them out to be 20-40 shows that it very much not considered canon. Unless his family had some sort of genetic disease that killed them all early in life.
Look at the link I gave showing the peak ages at 200-300, in real life the peak is between 30-40, which would add up to elves being able to live 1000 years.
The Interview is not older than the first edition of the Real Barenziah you gave the reference to. Why it's age makes you consider it to be no more canon while your own reference of an even greater age was not taken into the same consideration? You took an obsolete edition of that book - what if I was not aware of the newer one's existance? Reading your reply, I see it as if you made it intentionally.. I think it is not fair. The age of the material is not the reason to consider it to be false, otherwise I would have made a certain reference to TES authorities' words I gave the link to above regarding it and I would have outlined a specific number of years of a material's canon status expiration. Nonetheless, a meterial is canon if it suits the requirements stated by the devs and if it is not updated by the same material of the same status. We have no official reasons to consider that interview no more canon, so that one is still canon.
Now regarding the game code - well, if we consider it a part of the game lore, then we should also consider Nerevar to be canonically Dunmer instead of a Chimer, based on his in-game 3D model seen in the Clockwork City
We should also consider the Summerset walking spirits of the Ancients to be the spirits of the Ayleids along with much of my own New Elven Chronology theory - that case it should be treated as something canon (though, it is just a theory, nothing more). I have seen the link and the diagram - that was interesting, thank you! But then again, this is not something canon itself. This is all a speculation and is not a topic of our discussion.
Asking if I missed something, I meant a direct link to an in-game source, or an out-of-game direct commentary of a dev or an Interview of an in-game character, stating that the Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
is
and thatThe_Drop_Bear wrote: »That statement isn't true.The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
So, my question is what source am I missing that supports your statement that the Elves naturally live 1000 years in their vast majority without any direct magical intervention? All the sources we have discussed here, both yours and mine, still support the Developers' AUA: Variety Pack 4 words I gave the link to from the very beginning. By the way, I don't seek ways to win this arguement and somehow make you feel uncomfortable - my point is to know the lore better and share the knowledge I already possess. Thus if there are the sources I ask for, share them, please, and I will admit I was wrong while you were right. Otherwise I expect you to be a bit more honest then you were when you gave an obsolete link to the "Real Barenziah" and ignored my remark on it.
Except that statement is still included in the newer real barenziah.
[snip] I didn't make it intentionally that was just the first link I came across to the book.
We very much do have reason to consider it non canon as we meet several dunmer commoners in Skyrim who are way older than Alvur and not described as being on deaths door.
No idea what your on about with his 3D model, but the devs assign the age to the characters showing what they intend that age to be.
Aylieds are HE, they are not a different race. Also the fact that ZOS was lazy and reused Aylied ruins for dirreni and and HE ones doesn't mean anything, especially as the Summerset dlc gives them their own texture and assets.
That Ask us anything isn't canon
“Unless it's credited to a Tamrielic source, e.g., "According to Beredalmo the Signifier...", marketing copy should not be considered to represent in-world lore.”
-Lawrence Schick
Symmachus was 375 when he died, he was at the stage where according to you he must be using magic. But he's not a mage.
And isn't described as being old, he wouldn't have died if it wasn't for the battle.
Vorien Direnni was 611 when writing his book, he isn't a mage and claims to be nothing special. That blows the 300 being death theory well out of the water.
The in-game source is The Real Barenziah.
You keep ignoring the link I gave to the graph of the ages, which shows that your argument has no weight as you can't counter it.
The ask is anything isn't canon, and Alvurs interview is proved wrong by many in-game ages so that unless his family had a genetic issue killing them young.
[Edited to remove Rude Comment]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on August 2, 2020 12:30PM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm not sure I understand the point of the graph. It's pulling from a handful of known ages, not exactly comprehensive population data.1 -
Aigym_Hlervu✭✭✭✭✭The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Isn't 28yo quite young for an elf? Like isn't that still an adolescent in elven age?
Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
Based on this source we can roughly make the following calculation: if 300 Elven years are 100 human years, then 28 Elven years are.. 9 human years. She's not quite young - she's way too young . Anyway, her psychology is human enough to be adult in her 27. I wonder what changes in Elven mindset happen through their lives said to be that long. I doubt it should be equal to human one. The same calculation for Nerevar based on the dates of the First Era battles he fought, shows the age of the Hortator was close to 300 years making him a very old but still good fighter. Still, I've met no fan art depicting him that old - he's always young there.
That statement isn't true. There are far too many elves of 200 or 300 plus for that to work.
We also have the ESO loremaster state Ng that unless it lore is credited by a in universe source (like in the Q&A with the demiprince from the malestorm arena) then it's not canon.
Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
In Skyrim a dunmer farmer must be atleast 230+ as she remembers the city of vivec before the fall of the tribunal. And according to the games code she is 30.
Could you give me the links to those in-game sources stating the Elves generally can live up to 1000 years naturally? That's interesting.
Yes, there are many of those old Mer: Divayth is 4000 years old, Dratha, Therana and Gothren are at least 760 - 800 - but how does this all contradict the statement of the dev's I qouted? Your mesasage does not make it a false one yet. Please, check this post of mine - it contains all the information and the respective links to the sources on what should be considered true. I also left the time stamps (I think you won't find them anywhere else on the Internet) in that huge several hour video in order to help everyone to find those words I qouted in that post and to check it personally. Though, if I miss some current in-game information regarding the Elven life spans, the information contradicting the words of the devs I qouted above, or maybe the devs said something new on it making the initial stament obsolete - please, share it, I'd appreciate it much.
"contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could."
- The Real Barenziah (only in game source on elves live span) been in the games since daggerfall and although some of the more explicit bits have been removed that bit hasn't.
“Unless it's credited to a Tamrielic source, e.g., "According to Beredalmo the Signifier...", marketing copy should not be considered to represent in-world lore.”
-Eso loremaster when asked about whether Dev statements are considered canon.
Which means the statement about the 200-300 year life is not canon.
Ah, the Unreal Barenziah. Hmm, interesting.. Thank you! So how should we deal with this:
1. The Real Barenziah in TES II, the original book consisting of 10 parts, Part III you've qouted - "Katisha's face briefly wore the wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand year life span that elves were entitled to by nature. True, few ever actually lived that long, as disease and violence took a toll, but they could.".
2. The Real Barenziah seen TES III - V, the updated 5 volume book- "Katisha's face briefly wore the envious, wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could. And one or two of them actually did.".
3. According to the Interview with Alvur Relds - "Well, I'm fifty, done my twenty years in the Service, and I'm in the prime of life. I expect another fifty good years, and then I'll be old, and slow, chatting with gaffers around the hearth for another twenty, thirty years. I've known mer still mind-sharp in their late hundreds, and heard of folk 200 and older. My family usually makes it to 120-130, providing we don't get sick or poked in the eye.".
4. Most of the examples you gave do not expand beyond 1000 years and the rest of over 300 years are quite discussable and depend much on speculation.
This all still supports the devs qoute I gave at the very beginning and still makes it canon even within that 2017 Mr. Schick's commentary. This all and contradicts your statement thatThe_Drop_Bear wrote: »Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
I see the only one source saying it and it makes a crucial remark that only one or two of those Elves actually did it. Am I still missing something?
Interview with Alvur is old, and the fact that there are so many elves who are much older than that, and yet the game code makes them out to be 20-40 shows that it very much not considered canon. Unless his family had some sort of genetic disease that killed them all early in life.
Look at the link I gave showing the peak ages at 200-300, in real life the peak is between 30-40, which would add up to elves being able to live 1000 years.
The Interview is not older than the first edition of the Real Barenziah you gave the reference to. Why it's age makes you consider it to be no more canon while your own reference of an even greater age was not taken into the same consideration? You took an obsolete edition of that book - what if I was not aware of the newer one's existance? Reading your reply, I see it as if you made it intentionally.. I think it is not fair. The age of the material is not the reason to consider it to be false, otherwise I would have made a certain reference to TES authorities' words I gave the link to above regarding it and I would have outlined a specific number of years of a material's canon status expiration. Nonetheless, a meterial is canon if it suits the requirements stated by the devs and if it is not updated by the same material of the same status. We have no official reasons to consider that interview no more canon, so that one is still canon.
Now regarding the game code - well, if we consider it a part of the game lore, then we should also consider Nerevar to be canonically Dunmer instead of a Chimer, based on his in-game 3D model seen in the Clockwork City
We should also consider the Summerset walking spirits of the Ancients to be the spirits of the Ayleids along with much of my own New Elven Chronology theory - that case it should be treated as something canon (though, it is just a theory, nothing more). I have seen the link and the diagram - that was interesting, thank you! But then again, this is not something canon itself. This is all a speculation and is not a topic of our discussion.
Asking if I missed something, I meant a direct link to an in-game source, or an out-of-game direct commentary of a dev or an Interview of an in-game character, stating that the Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
is
and thatThe_Drop_Bear wrote: »That statement isn't true.The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
So, my question is what source am I missing that supports your statement that the Elves naturally live 1000 years in their vast majority without any direct magical intervention? All the sources we have discussed here, both yours and mine, still support the Developers' AUA: Variety Pack 4 words I gave the link to from the very beginning. By the way, I don't seek ways to win this arguement and somehow make you feel uncomfortable - my point is to know the lore better and share the knowledge I already possess. Thus if there are the sources I ask for, share them, please, and I will admit I was wrong while you were right. Otherwise I expect you to be a bit more honest then you were when you gave an obsolete link to the "Real Barenziah" and ignored my remark on it.
Except that statement is still included in the newer real barenziah.
[snip] I didn't make it intentionally that was just the first link I came across to the book.
We very much do have reason to consider it non canon as we meet several dunmer commoners in Skyrim who are way older than Alvur and not described as being on deaths door.
No idea what your on about with his 3D model, but the devs assign the age to the characters showing what they intend that age to be.
Aylieds are HE, they are not a different race. Also the fact that ZOS was lazy and reused Aylied ruins for dirreni and and HE ones doesn't mean anything, especially as the Summerset dlc gives them their own texture and assets.
That Ask us anything isn't canon
“Unless it's credited to a Tamrielic source, e.g., "According to Beredalmo the Signifier...", marketing copy should not be considered to represent in-world lore.”
-Lawrence Schick
Symmachus was 375 when he died, he was at the stage where according to you he must be using magic. But he's not a mage.
And isn't described as being old, he wouldn't have died if it wasn't for the battle.
Vorien Direnni was 611 when writing his book, he isn't a mage and claims to be nothing special. That blows the 300 being death theory well out of the water.
The in-game source is The Real Barenziah.
You keep ignoring the link I gave to the graph of the ages, which shows that your argument has no weight as you can't counter it.
The ask is anything isn't canon, and Alvurs interview is proved wrong by many in-game ages so that unless his family had a genetic issue killing them young.
[Edited to remove Rude Comment]
Ok, since you insist on those particular Symmachus and Vorien Direnni examples, then I have 3 questions I think you will be able to answer directly:
1. According to The Daggerfall Chronicles (page 26), Symmachus was born in 2E 865 and died in 3E 391. According to the Real Barenziah of any edition he lived 500 years prior to the book publishing in TES II - 3E 405. So it is 2E 801 even. According to Biography of Queen Barenziah, Volume 1, Barenziah was 5 years old by the time of the Armistice and the unification of Tamriel - that makes 2E 892 - 893 the date of her birth. According to the same Real Barenziah, Symmachus was 29 years old when Barenziah was born, so that makes 2E 864 -865 the year of his birth and it reconciles with the Daggerfall Chronicles. This calculation shows he was about 422 years when he died. So, what calculation gave you the result of 375 years? Give me the links to your sources, please. I need to see the two exact dates of birth and death in it that made you perform the calculation and get that result of 375 years. Symmachus did not have to be a mage himself to extend his life, and since we don't know for sure of how did he manage to live that long, discussing the means of his over 300 years life span is just a speculation.
2. Regarding Vorien Direnni. Could you give me a direct link to him, to the name of his book and the source supporting your words that he was 611 when writing that book and that he was certainly not a mage as you say it? I guess you know really much of him, of his work and his age, on his trade, etc. since you make that often and confident reference to him.
3. You said "Symmachus was 375, Vorien Direnni was 611 when writing his book. The in-game source is The Real Barenziah" - could you give me the direct lines in the Real Barenziah, stating that Symmachus was 375 when he died and Vorien Direnni was 611? I need only the number of the volume and a quote from it.
Regarding the game code you reference to: the devs could have assigned the age through the means of game code - just like they made Nerevar a Dunmer through the same means of the game code. Should we treat it as canon? It is speculative and thus it has no connection to our discussion. I've already given the link to the sources on what should be treated canon, true. The game code data is not mentioned there. So, regarding your link to that graph of unknown origin and status - I agree with @VaranisArano. This is why I do not discuss it too. It is just another speculation, not the lore.
I repeat my question again: please, give me a direct link to an in-game source, or an out-of-game direct commentary of a dev or an Interview of an in-game character, stating that the Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
is
and thatThe_Drop_Bear wrote: »That statement isn't true.The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
The Real Barenziah, as we figured it out, is not the source stating that the vast majority of Elves can live that long. Moreover, I don't see any apology from you for giving it's obsolete edition, I see only this:
and the traces of some rude words you wrote me that made a moderator to interfere into your post. There is no need to be rude - I've been polite towards you. Yet. So, let's stay civil, please. My point is not to abuse you, but to study the lore and find out the truth. If you turn out to be right on the Elven lifespans to be of 1000 years in their vast majority, and on the Devs' AUA I referenced to be no more canon, I'll admit it and thank you. The same thing I expect from you.The_Drop_Bear wrote: »[snip] I didn't make it intentionally that was just the first link I came across to the book.Edited by Aigym_Hlervu on August 4, 2020 4:20AM2 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »study the lore and find out the truth
I'm going to quote you a little bit out of context here, but you nailed the core issue : there's no such thing as "the truth" in TES lore. Main reason is : creators did not want it. Hence all visions given "in universe" with a subjective point of view.
Fact that one creator left but still wrote stuff / expanded said lore adds to the problem, but it's not a problem.
MAKE YOUR OWN TRUTH. Whatever you like, whatever you fell is consistent, whatever you feel comfortable with, whatever you feel is nice.
That's all there's to it, really.
As to elves' average life expectancy, it's established (though, again, you're free to take your own option here), that elves live longer or much longer than humans, but we don't know by which factor, and there are diverging declarations and sources about it, but the answer is : TAKE YOUR PICK.0 -
Aigym_Hlervu✭✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »study the lore and find out the truth
I'm going to quote you a little bit out of context here, but you nailed the core issue : there's no such thing as "the truth" in TES lore. Main reason is : creators did not want it. Hence all visions given "in universe" with a subjective point of view.
Fact that one creator left but still wrote stuff / expanded said lore adds to the problem, but it's not a problem.
MAKE YOUR OWN TRUTH. Whatever you like, whatever you fell is consistent, whatever you feel comfortable with, whatever you feel is nice.
That's all there's to it, really.
As to elves' average life expectancy, it's established (though, again, you're free to take your own option here), that elves live longer or much longer than humans, but we don't know by which factor, and there are diverging declarations and sources about it, but the answer is : TAKE YOUR PICK.
Hello, Anita!Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Please, check this post of mine - it contains all the information and the respective links to the sources on what should be considered true. I also left the time stamps (I think you won't find them anywhere else on the Internet) in that huge several hour video in order to help everyone to find those words I qouted in that post and to check it personally.
1 -
Athan1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Funny how the Veiled Heritance (or any hater of the Queen) didn't pick up on this. They could have easily dismissed her as too young and naive to be an effective queen.Athan Atticus Imperial Templar of Shezarr0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Funny how the Veiled Heritance (or any hater of the Queen) didn't pick up on this. They could have easily dismissed her as too young and naive to be an effective queen.
Well, the problem with doing that is their candidate, Prince Naemon, is Ayrenn's younger brother.
Speculation here: unless Estre has a May-December thing going with Naemon, she's probably not that much older herself.2 -
The_Drop_Bear✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I'm not sure I understand the point of the graph. It's pulling from a handful of known ages, not exactly comprehensive population data.
Because it's all the known ages, and there are far too many who are not mages and yet nor dead nor even close to death as Alvur would imply0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The_Drop_Bear wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I'm not sure I understand the point of the graph. It's pulling from a handful of known ages, not exactly comprehensive population data.
Because it's all the known ages, and there are far too many who are not mages and yet nor dead nor even close to death as Alvur would imply
Yeah...so maybe I wasn't clear. All of the known ages? That's a handful of examples. That's not representative population data compared to the age graphs you get from nations. With small sample sizes (and this is a tiny sample size), it's really easy to skew the results. Relating it to real world age distributions to try to figure out average ages just doesn't work very well. It's a misuse of statistics.
I'm not tied to Alvur's interview, just noting it exists. And that its ironic to call it "old" when you pulled out an older version of The Real Barenziah. The updated version from TES3 onwards has been provided, so I'll just leave it there.
When it comes to the discussion over sources, some Google-fu may help:
Vorien Direnni says pretty explicitly that he's a wizard in his own book: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:De_Rerum_Dirennis
Finally, correct me if I'm wrong, but the source for Symmachus' age is The Daggerfall Chronicles, the game strategy guide?https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Second_Era#2E_865Edited by VaranisArano on August 3, 2020 7:59PM2 -
The_Drop_Bear✭✭✭Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Isn't 28yo quite young for an elf? Like isn't that still an adolescent in elven age?
Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
Based on this source we can roughly make the following calculation: if 300 Elven years are 100 human years, then 28 Elven years are.. 9 human years. She's not quite young - she's way too young . Anyway, her psychology is human enough to be adult in her 27. I wonder what changes in Elven mindset happen through their lives said to be that long. I doubt it should be equal to human one. The same calculation for Nerevar based on the dates of the First Era battles he fought, shows the age of the Hortator was close to 300 years making him a very old but still good fighter. Still, I've met no fan art depicting him that old - he's always young there.
That statement isn't true. There are far too many elves of 200 or 300 plus for that to work.
We also have the ESO loremaster state Ng that unless it lore is credited by a in universe source (like in the Q&A with the demiprince from the malestorm arena) then it's not canon.
Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
In Skyrim a dunmer farmer must be atleast 230+ as she remembers the city of vivec before the fall of the tribunal. And according to the games code she is 30.
Could you give me the links to those in-game sources stating the Elves generally can live up to 1000 years naturally? That's interesting.
Yes, there are many of those old Mer: Divayth is 4000 years old, Dratha, Therana and Gothren are at least 760 - 800 - but how does this all contradict the statement of the dev's I qouted? Your mesasage does not make it a false one yet. Please, check this post of mine - it contains all the information and the respective links to the sources on what should be considered true. I also left the time stamps (I think you won't find them anywhere else on the Internet) in that huge several hour video in order to help everyone to find those words I qouted in that post and to check it personally. Though, if I miss some current in-game information regarding the Elven life spans, the information contradicting the words of the devs I qouted above, or maybe the devs said something new on it making the initial stament obsolete - please, share it, I'd appreciate it much.
"contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could."
- The Real Barenziah (only in game source on elves live span) been in the games since daggerfall and although some of the more explicit bits have been removed that bit hasn't.
“Unless it's credited to a Tamrielic source, e.g., "According to Beredalmo the Signifier...", marketing copy should not be considered to represent in-world lore.”
-Eso loremaster when asked about whether Dev statements are considered canon.
Which means the statement about the 200-300 year life is not canon.
Ah, the Unreal Barenziah. Hmm, interesting.. Thank you! So how should we deal with this:
1. The Real Barenziah in TES II, the original book consisting of 10 parts, Part III you've qouted - "Katisha's face briefly wore the wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand year life span that elves were entitled to by nature. True, few ever actually lived that long, as disease and violence took a toll, but they could.".
2. The Real Barenziah seen TES III - V, the updated 5 volume book- "Katisha's face briefly wore the envious, wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could. And one or two of them actually did.".
3. According to the Interview with Alvur Relds - "Well, I'm fifty, done my twenty years in the Service, and I'm in the prime of life. I expect another fifty good years, and then I'll be old, and slow, chatting with gaffers around the hearth for another twenty, thirty years. I've known mer still mind-sharp in their late hundreds, and heard of folk 200 and older. My family usually makes it to 120-130, providing we don't get sick or poked in the eye.".
4. Most of the examples you gave do not expand beyond 1000 years and the rest of over 300 years are quite discussable and depend much on speculation.
This all still supports the devs qoute I gave at the very beginning and still makes it canon even within that 2017 Mr. Schick's commentary. This all and contradicts your statement thatThe_Drop_Bear wrote: »Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
I see the only one source saying it and it makes a crucial remark that only one or two of those Elves actually did it. Am I still missing something?
Interview with Alvur is old, and the fact that there are so many elves who are much older than that, and yet the game code makes them out to be 20-40 shows that it very much not considered canon. Unless his family had some sort of genetic disease that killed them all early in life.
Look at the link I gave showing the peak ages at 200-300, in real life the peak is between 30-40, which would add up to elves being able to live 1000 years.
The Interview is not older than the first edition of the Real Barenziah you gave the reference to. Why it's age makes you consider it to be no more canon while your own reference of an even greater age was not taken into the same consideration? You took an obsolete edition of that book - what if I was not aware of the newer one's existance? Reading your reply, I see it as if you made it intentionally.. I think it is not fair. The age of the material is not the reason to consider it to be false, otherwise I would have made a certain reference to TES authorities' words I gave the link to above regarding it and I would have outlined a specific number of years of a material's canon status expiration. Nonetheless, a meterial is canon if it suits the requirements stated by the devs and if it is not updated by the same material of the same status. We have no official reasons to consider that interview no more canon, so that one is still canon.
Now regarding the game code - well, if we consider it a part of the game lore, then we should also consider Nerevar to be canonically Dunmer instead of a Chimer, based on his in-game 3D model seen in the Clockwork City
We should also consider the Summerset walking spirits of the Ancients to be the spirits of the Ayleids along with much of my own New Elven Chronology theory - that case it should be treated as something canon (though, it is just a theory, nothing more). I have seen the link and the diagram - that was interesting, thank you! But then again, this is not something canon itself. This is all a speculation and is not a topic of our discussion.
Asking if I missed something, I meant a direct link to an in-game source, or an out-of-game direct commentary of a dev or an Interview of an in-game character, stating that the Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
is
and thatThe_Drop_Bear wrote: »That statement isn't true.The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
So, my question is what source am I missing that supports your statement that the Elves naturally live 1000 years in their vast majority without any direct magical intervention? All the sources we have discussed here, both yours and mine, still support the Developers' AUA: Variety Pack 4 words I gave the link to from the very beginning. By the way, I don't seek ways to win this arguement and somehow make you feel uncomfortable - my point is to know the lore better and share the knowledge I already possess. Thus if there are the sources I ask for, share them, please, and I will admit I was wrong while you were right. Otherwise I expect you to be a bit more honest then you were when you gave an obsolete link to the "Real Barenziah" and ignored my remark on it.
Except that statement is still included in the newer real barenziah.
[snip] I didn't make it intentionally that was just the first link I came across to the book.
We very much do have reason to consider it non canon as we meet several dunmer commoners in Skyrim who are way older than Alvur and not described as being on deaths door.
No idea what your on about with his 3D model, but the devs assign the age to the characters showing what they intend that age to be.
Aylieds are HE, they are not a different race. Also the fact that ZOS was lazy and reused Aylied ruins for dirreni and and HE ones doesn't mean anything, especially as the Summerset dlc gives them their own texture and assets.
That Ask us anything isn't canon
“Unless it's credited to a Tamrielic source, e.g., "According to Beredalmo the Signifier...", marketing copy should not be considered to represent in-world lore.”
-Lawrence Schick
Symmachus was 375 when he died, he was at the stage where according to you he must be using magic. But he's not a mage.
And isn't described as being old, he wouldn't have died if it wasn't for the battle.
Vorien Direnni was 611 when writing his book, he isn't a mage and claims to be nothing special. That blows the 300 being death theory well out of the water.
The in-game source is The Real Barenziah.
You keep ignoring the link I gave to the graph of the ages, which shows that your argument has no weight as you can't counter it.
The ask is anything isn't canon, and Alvurs interview is proved wrong by many in-game ages so that unless his family had a genetic issue killing them young.
[Edited to remove Rude Comment]
Ok, since you insist on those particular Symmachus and Vorien Direnni examples, then I have 3 questions I think you will be able to answer directly:
1. According to The Daggerfall Chronicles (page 26), Symmachus was born in 2E 865 and died in 3E 391. According to the Real Barenziah of any edition he lived 500 years prior to the book publishing in TES II - 3E 405. So it is 2E 801 even. According to Biography of Queen Barenziah, Volume 1, Barenziah was 5 years old by the time of the Armistice and the unification of Tamriel - that makes 2E 892 - 893 the date of her birth. According to the same Real Barenziah, Symmachus was 29 years old when Barenziah was born, so that makes 2E 864 -865 the year of his birth and it reconciles with the Daggerfall Chronicles. This calculation shows he was about 422 years when he died. So, what calculation gave you the result of 375 years? Give me the links to your sources, please. I need to see the two exact dates of birth and death in it that made you perform the calculation and get that result of 375 years. Symmachus did not have to be a mage himself to extend his life, and since we don't know for sure of how did he manage to live that long, discussing the means of his over 300 years life span is just a speculation.
2. Regarding Vorien Direnni. Could you give me a direct link to him, to the name of his book and the source supporting your words that he was 611 when writing that book and that he was certainly not a mage as you say it? I guess you know really much of him, of his work and his age, on his trade, etc. since you make that often and confident reference to him.
3. You said "Symmachus was 375, Vorien Direnni was 611 when writing his book. The in-game source is The Real Barenziah" - could you give me the direct lines in the Real Barenziah, stating that Symmachus was 375 when he died and Vorien Direnni was 611? I need only the number of the volume and a quote from it.
Regarding the game code you reference to: the devs could have assigned the age through the means of game code - just like they made Nerevar a Dunmer through the same means of the game code. Should we treat it as canon? It is speculative and thus it has no connection to our discussion. I've already given the link to the sources on what should be treated canon, true. The game code data is not mentioned there. So, regarding your link to that graph of unknown origin and status - I agree with @VaranisArano. This is why I do not discuss it too. It is just another speculation, not the lore.
I repeat my question again: please, give me a direct link to an in-game source, or an out-of-game direct commentary of a dev or an Interview of an in-game character, stating that the Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
is
and thatThe_Drop_Bear wrote: »That statement isn't true.The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
The Real Barenziah, as we figured it out, is not the source stating that the vast majority of Elves can live that long. Moreover, I don't see any apology from you for giving it's obsolete edition, I see only this:
and the traces of some rude words you wrote me that made a moderator to interfere into your post. There is no need to be rude - I've been polite towards you. Yet. So, let's stay civil, please. My point is not to abuse you, but to study the lore and find out the truth. If you turn out to be right on the Elven lifespans to be of 1000 years in their vast majority, and on the Devs' AUA I referenced to be no more canon, I'll admit it and thank you. The same thing I expect from you.The_Drop_Bear wrote: »[snip] I didn't make it intentionally that was just the first link I came across to the book.
1)That calculation puts him at even older than I said.
2) In his book he states he is 610 years old.
3) I said that the real Barenziah was the in game source for saying elves could live 1000 years.
4) Where exactly does it state Nerevar was a dunmer in the code.
Also linking to what should be considered canon and true, didn't know you were a loremaster at Bethesda oh wait you aren't.
5) "Unless it's credited to a Tamrielic source, e.g., "According to Beredalmo the Signifier...", marketing copy should not be considered to represent in-world lore. Safety first!"
-Lawrence Schick
Since that Ask us anything isn't credited to an in universe source or doesn't represent the lore.
6)I never said that it said that the majority of elves lived that long, only that they could without magical aid
You want me to apologize for accidentally quoting the the old source. Sure I'll do that as soon as you apologize for saying I intentionally did it.
Sorry I wasn't trying to be rude I just forget how other countries (particularly American stuff like this form) see profanity worse than they do where I come from.
If you want more info I just found this good threat created by one of the main runners of the imperial library website.
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/cs7c7j/your_definitive_thread_on_elven_lifespans/
Sorry if I said anything wrong this time but i am replying to this while a bit drunk o the way back from a party.
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Aigym_Hlervu✭✭✭✭✭I know the reddit source you've been quoting from the very beginning quite well, @The_Drop_Bear - this is why, unlike @VaranisArano, I did not give you the source to Vorian Direnni whom you used as an argument: they misspelled his name in that reddit post and you did the very same thing several times while giving no sources to him - misspelling would not allow you to find that character typing his name directly at least on the UESP and would spoil some search results in Google. That very thing made me think you were saying someone's else opinion without any source check and thinking yourself. Then I found the source of your graph and it all became clear. And this is why I asked those three specific questions the way I did. I was only waiting you to admit that your words and opinion were actually not yours - so you finally did it and I thank you for being honest at that point.
So, as I have expected it (since your arguments were almost copied and pasted from there), you made no your own calculations and no source study, so it is useless to ask you to give the evidence supporting your words. That makes your initial statement on that the Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."
saying
not true itself. Because you simply couldn't give proper grounds to your opinion and that happened because that was not actually your opinion. Please, study TES lore yourself, ask questions if you don't know something, think yourself and check those sources you read yourself, instead of saying "This is not true" and giving links to anyone's speculation.The_Drop_Bear wrote: »That statement isn't true. Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
Now on to your final arguments:
Yes, indeed, he's even older. But that was not the point - the point was to show that your own calculation you were implying to (375 years) was wrong. You gave no sources - your argument is not taken into consideration. Symmachus is not said to be a mage, but likewise he is not said not to be the one in order to extend his life - this topic is speculative. This along with no source provided for your calculation of his 375 years of age and the reference to that age as the evidence to the falsehood of the devs' commentary, makes your argument wrong and unreliable itself.The_Drop_Bear wrote: »1)That calculation puts him at even older than I said.The_Drop_Bear wrote: »2) In his book he states he is 610 years old.
Yes, indeed, in his book Vorian Direnni says - "I am six-hundred-and-eleven years old". I understand that you haven't read the book personally even after @VaranisArano gave you the link and wrote you it's content regarding Vorian's trade. Further on in his book Vorian says - "I myself have never picked up a sword or written an important law, but I am part of a lesser known but still important Direnni tradition: the way of the wizard".The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Vorien Direnni was 611 when writing his book, he isn't a mage and claims to be nothing special. That blows the 300 being death theory well out of the water. The in-game source is The Real Barenziah
Do you see it now or you will still deny you are wrong?
You said much on that book and, indeed, this turns out to be the only thing true you said regarding the topic we discuss - but only one or two of those Mer actually lived to that age and we know nothing of them. Though you gave it's obsolete version and implied to it until you were faced with the current one - it is crucial, because we are discussing the devs' AUA commentary regarding the life spans of the Elves in general, not those two particular unidentified lucky Mer who are said to reach that 1000 years checkpoint in the current version of the book:The_Drop_Bear wrote: »3) I said that the real Barenziah was the in game source for saying elves could live 1000 years.
So, since this argument is based on one or two Mer "who could" instead of just "Elves" in general, your argument is incorrect because it has no connection to the devs' AUA we are discussing.Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »2. The Real Barenziah seen TES III - V, the updated 5 volume book- "Katisha's face briefly wore the envious, wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could. And one or two of them actually did."
Scroll up there, there's your quote and my reply to it with the Nerevar's face smiling at you. The reddit's reference to the Elven characters' age numbers they found in the editor are as lore-wise as that ESO Nerevar's 3D model or, say, Nerevarine's canon male gender since his default characteristics in TES III editor are Dunmer, Male. Some of us used that reference as an argument 18 years ago before the new content was released, now we have in-game sources confirming it. But nonetheless, you picked up that reddit idea and used it as if that editor information should be treated canon. Moreover, you should have known that in Skyrim game code all the old characters are set as a distinct race - should we treat them that way lore-wise, I mean as a distinct race? I hope the answer is obvious. Thus your references to the Elven age written in game code are wrong.The_Drop_Bear wrote: »4) Where exactly does it state Nerevar was a dunmer in the code.
Also linking to what should be considered canon and true, didn't know you were a loremaster at Bethesda oh wait you aren't.
Regarding the link to my own post on what should be considered canon and true - if you opened that post, you would have seen that I gave quotes of the game devs there only, including both of the ESO Loremasters' ones, and also shared links to that quotes especially to help the players like you to better know the lore, to make them think themselves instead of believing every fan site they bump into and using unreliable fan sources as an argument. So, your unreasonable mockery towards me has no sense.
Again those words from that reddit post hereThe_Drop_Bear wrote: »5) "Unless it's credited to a Tamrielic source, e.g., "According to Beredalmo the Signifier...", marketing copy should not be considered to represent in-world lore. Safety first!" - Lawrence Schick. Since that Ask us anything isn't credited to an in universe source or doesn't represent the lore... Well, I won't discuss the meaning of that "marketing copy" used there, but I've already given you that "According to.." thing you asked for:
So, I gave a direct link there that fully reconciles with the devs' AUA we are disccussing, The Real Barenziah, etc. Your question is answered.Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »3. According to the Interview with Alvur Relds - "Well, I'm fifty, done my twenty years in the Service, and I'm in the prime of life. I expect another fifty good years, and then I'll be old, and slow, chatting with gaffers around the hearth for another twenty, thirty years. I've known mer still mind-sharp in their late hundreds, and heard of folk 200 and older. My family usually makes it to 120-130, providing we don't get sick or poked in the eye."
Oh.. Never mind, my friend. I'll keep that in mind next time we discuss the lore. Regarding that reddit source you used as an argument to say the devs' AUA to be non-canon, false, etc.:The_Drop_Bear wrote: »If you want more info I just found this good threat created by one of the main runners of the imperial library website.
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/cs7c7j/your_definitive_thread_on_elven_lifespans/
Sorry if I said anything wrong this time but i am replying to this while a bit drunk o the way back from a party.
"If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, in the manual, that's the third. If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right! But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third."
- Todd Howard, UESP's PAX East 2019 Interview.
So, as you see it, my source is of a number 3 truth priority. Yours, being a fan site and a thread written by an unofficial author, is not on the list of priority.
Just like giving obsolete sources as an argument in lore discussions and not apologizing for that is impolite, this is another account of a way more impolite thing. Ok, let's see what you said:The_Drop_Bear wrote: »6)I never said that it said that the majority of elves lived that long, only that they could without magical aidCygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Developers' "Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4", 05/06/2013 - "Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."The_Drop_Bear wrote: »That statement isn't true.The_Drop_Bear wrote: »Plus we have in-game sources stating elves can live up to 1000 naturally.
We discussed Elves. In general. In their vast majority. Not those two particular Elves mentioned in The Real Barenziah. I hope you understand the difference between the phrases "Elves live 1000 years naturally" and "Two Elves could have lived up to 1000 years naturally".
I don't know if you made it accidentally or not. You started the entire arguement, you gave an incorrect and obsolete source as it's grounds and neither notified about it nor apologized for it. I have no reasons to think you did accidentally.The_Drop_Bear wrote: »You want me to apologize for accidentally quoting the the old source. Sure I'll do that as soon as you apologize for saying I intentionally did it.Edited by Aigym_Hlervu on August 4, 2020 5:08PM1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thanks for finally sourcing the Reddit argument! It makes it a lot easier to check sources when I know where people are coming from. (No offense, but after missing that Direnni was a wizard, I'm double checking sources. And I still think that graph is an abuse of statistics with its tiny sample size).
So when it comes to the lore and canoncity of outside sources, Todd Howard's interview is the most recent source we have. He goes into some interesting detail about the flavor text in the new cookbook and how it's canon, just low down in priority and superseded by what you'd see in game: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Todd_Howard_PAX_East_2019_Interview
So I do think there's some validity to the argument that the apparent (that we see in game, not CK data) ages of Mer we know survived Red Year that we see in game and The Real Barenziah are a higher priority of canon than the AUA or Alvur's interview or the CK data itself.
Though, as an aside and out of personal curiosity, did anyone else think Neloth got younger looking in Skyrim?
Pic:
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ZOS_ConnorGmodGreetings all,
After review we have had to edit or removed posts in this thread for violations of the Community Rules, mostly Baiting. Please ensure when engaging in a discussion that the discussion is civil, constructive, and within the rules.
You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.1 -
I distinctly remember reading that Altmer nobles use necromancy very casually to prolong their lifespans and use powerful alteration magic to preserve their good looks.
I do not know if this was retconned or not, given their aversion to necromancy (but they have been known to be hypocrites).
Perhaps like Dunmer ancestor worship this sort of necromancy is excused? Since they use white souls of animals or plants to replenish their own life force.
Perhaps this practice is so common, like human vaccinations, that it is considered a natural part of life and thus elves that live up to a 1000 years are considered normal the same way humans who live up to 80 are considered normal even though it is only possible to medical advances.
Queen Ayrenn could very well be using such spells as she is a royal, why won’t you want a monarch who reigns for millennia?<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/12.jpg></a></p>0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AnomanderisPurake wrote: »I distinctly remember reading that Altmer nobles use necromancy very casually to prolong their lifespans and use powerful alteration magic to preserve their good looks.
I do not know if this was retconned or not, given their aversion to necromancy (but they have been known to be hypocrites).
Perhaps like Dunmer ancestor worship this sort of necromancy is excused? Since they use white souls of animals or plants to replenish their own life force.
Perhaps this practice is so common, like human vaccinations, that it is considered a natural part of life and thus elves that live up to a 1000 years are considered normal the same way humans who live up to 80 are considered normal even though it is only possible to medical advances.
Queen Ayrenn could very well be using such spells as she is a royal, why won’t you want a monarch who reigns for millennia?
Here's the source, as far as I can tell: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Corpse_Preparation
"Summerset Isle is even worse in some ways. Some Altmer born into the most respected noble and scholarly families are actually allowed to study the dead in the open. Their research, however, seems to be centered on finding ways to extend their lives even further rather than the more practical uses of our Art. A Necromancer of any other race caught in Summerset Isle can expect the worst possible punishments."
Speculation here: the flood of nebarra Necromancers coming to the Isles is why the punishments are worse by the time of Morrowind.0 -
BirraleeSoul Shriven
As an aside, I think the correct interpretation of Kirkbride's use of the word android isn't as a robot that looks like a mortal creature, rather an artificial lifeform of some kind. Quite possibly flesh and blood, but artificial none the less. I remember discussing this stuff with some of the lore buffs that used to frequent the old Bethesda forums. I can't remember what their reasoning was, but I found it convincing. Well, just as convincing as the less fantastic version of her backstory anyway.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Here's a theory I've heard of, and which I like, but I can't give you any "proofs" nor links to it, says that during her time "away" Ayrenn was sent 5000 years into the future and was then known as "KINMUNE". Or, better said, she's always been "KINMUNE" and was sent back 5000 years into the past as Ayrenn. KINMUNE is an android. I mean, a mix of woman and robot - not a smartphone OS.
That's mostly Kirkbride stuff - take it or leave it but don't start me with Kirkbride. I like his stuff and vision, particularly this one. It explains why Ayrenn has a "destiny" as Queen and has always been aware of it, it explains her disappearance and "legend", it explains why she was much stronger physically and emotionally than anyone her age, and it explains why she miraculously turned up the day her brother was meant to be crowned king to claim her heirloom.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
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As an aside, I think the correct interpretation of Kirkbride's use of the word android isn't as a robot that looks like a mortal creature, rather an artificial lifeform of some kind. Quite possibly flesh and blood, but artificial none the less. I remember discussing this stuff with some of the lore buffs that used to frequent the old Bethesda forums. I can't remember what their reasoning was, but I found it convincing. Well, just as convincing as the less fantastic version of her backstory anyway.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Here's a theory I've heard of, and which I like, but I can't give you any "proofs" nor links to it, says that during her time "away" Ayrenn was sent 5000 years into the future and was then known as "KINMUNE". Or, better said, she's always been "KINMUNE" and was sent back 5000 years into the past as Ayrenn. KINMUNE is an android. I mean, a mix of woman and robot - not a smartphone OS.
That's mostly Kirkbride stuff - take it or leave it but don't start me with Kirkbride. I like his stuff and vision, particularly this one. It explains why Ayrenn has a "destiny" as Queen and has always been aware of it, it explains her disappearance and "legend", it explains why she was much stronger physically and emotionally than anyone her age, and it explains why she miraculously turned up the day her brother was meant to be crowned king to claim her heirloom.
So, basically a Fallout synth? Now there's an interesting fanfic.Edited by VaranisArano on August 12, 2020 11:34AM1 -
BirraleeSoul ShrivenVaranisArano wrote: »
As an aside, I think the correct interpretation of Kirkbride's use of the word android isn't as a robot that looks like a mortal creature, rather an artificial lifeform of some kind. Quite possibly flesh and blood, but artificial none the less. I remember discussing this stuff with some of the lore buffs that used to frequent the old Bethesda forums. I can't remember what their reasoning was, but I found it convincing. Well, just as convincing as the less fantastic version of her backstory anyway.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Here's a theory I've heard of, and which I like, but I can't give you any "proofs" nor links to it, says that during her time "away" Ayrenn was sent 5000 years into the future and was then known as "KINMUNE". Or, better said, she's always been "KINMUNE" and was sent back 5000 years into the past as Ayrenn. KINMUNE is an android. I mean, a mix of woman and robot - not a smartphone OS.
That's mostly Kirkbride stuff - take it or leave it but don't start me with Kirkbride. I like his stuff and vision, particularly this one. It explains why Ayrenn has a "destiny" as Queen and has always been aware of it, it explains her disappearance and "legend", it explains why she was much stronger physically and emotionally than anyone her age, and it explains why she miraculously turned up the day her brother was meant to be crowned king to claim her heirloom.
So, basically a Fallout synth? Now there's an interesting fanfic.
I haven't played Fallout, but after a quick read on the wiki, yes, that does seem to be a more appropriate interpretation than imagining something more terminator-esque. The only problem I actually have with that story after playing ESO is that Ayrenn's character is far too genuine for me to suspect her of being deceitful about her past.0
