Nords and Orcs Tamriel highlanders

YstradClud

Just wondering who technically are the highlanders of Tamriel? The Orcs moved to Skyrim from Summerset in the Early Merethic Era but the first permanent settlements were founded by Ysgramor in the Middle & Late Merethic Era who came from Altmora and all the lore really says is that

the initial clashes with the Orcs at this time have become part of Nordic legend

Ratzkifal

That's a difficult question. I'd give it to the Orc or the Nedes, but not the Nords.
There is a lot of evidence of Tamrielic humans before Ysgramor and the proper Nords arrived. The Nedes encompass a broad variety of humans who supposedly all came from different places of Atmora at different times but they are not Nords proper as the Kothringi, the Reachmen and Duraki are all very different from the Nords, which I believe are the last arrivals from Atmora on Tamriel.

The (Iron) Orcs are reported to have been fighting with the Duraki Nedes in the Dragontail mountains at a time before Saarthal was founded but before Ysgramor arrived, meaning that the Duraki Nedic culture must have already existed long before that to have developed to a point that would explain the history with the Iron Orcs prior to their fight, with rich cultural exchange and impressive masonry work. So the Nords couldn't have been the ones inhabiting those mountains already.

My guess is that the answer isn't clear and the Orcs and Nedes probably arrived at the same time, being the first to some parts of the mountains and late to others. A supporting sign of this theory could be the very lack of a proper answer. If there was an easy answer to it, it probably would exist somewhere and since it doesn't, there might not be an easy answer out there after all.

However it should be noted that Topal the Pilot encountered Orcs before the creation of the actual Orcs, which dates before the first human settlements came to be in High Rock, Hammerfell and Cyrodiil. It's very possible that this is a translation error and Orsimer (cursed folk) could refer to some other cursed folk that is now extinct while their name is getting reused for the new cursed folk or Pariah folk. If it's not a translation error though and the creation myth of the Orcs is wrong or not the whole truth, then the answer would be the Orcs. I doubt this is the case though as it requires too many assumptions. It is most likely just a translation error.

YstradClud

Ratzkifal wrote: »

That's a difficult question.

Just thought it was interesting. Feel free to move this to the Lore forum I just thought it would get more responses here.

The Nords seem to have come to power in Northern Tamriel during the Skyrim conquests under High King Vrage in first Empire of the Nords and Skyrim actually ruled all of northern Tamriel then.

BigBragg

Not the Nords, they follow a bit more of a Norse settler, invader history.

YstradClud

BigBragg wrote: »

Not the Nords, they follow a bit more of a Norse settler, invader history.

The lore seems to support the argument that the Nords proper came to Tamriel after the Orcs but as Ratzkifal pointed out it appears there was a human race called the Nedes living in Northern Tamriel at the same time as the early Orcs as well. The Nedes were completely exterminated by the Yokudan however.

Grianasteri

I think both Nords and Orcs nod to a Celtic/Nordic aesthetic and culture.

I have always felt Wood elves also have a nod towards the Celts, as well as Native Americans.

Argonians are clearly representative of South American ancient cultures and peoples.

Khajiit are South East Asian in aesthetic/feel.

Bretons are North European - Medieval

Redguard are Middle Eastern and African influenced.

Imperials are South European - Roman/Greek but also representative of modern USA I feel.

Dark elves and High elves... hmmn, combinations of quite a few of the others are to be found.

YstradClud

Grianasteri wrote: »

I think both Nords and Orcs nod to a Celtic/Nordic aesthetic and culture.

Celtic/Nordic cultures seem to go hand in hand in highland places from very early on so I agree with you there.

Phanex

Grianasteri wrote: »

I think both Nords and Orcs nod to a Celtic/Nordic aesthetic and culture.

I have always felt Wood elves also have a nod towards the Celts, as well as Native Americans.

Argonians are clearly representative of South American ancient cultures and peoples.

Khajiit are South East Asian in aesthetic/feel.

Bretons are North European - Medieval

Redguard are Middle Eastern and African influenced.

Imperials are South European - Roman/Greek but also representative of modern USA I feel.

Dark elves and High elves... hmmn, combinations of quite a few of the others are to be found.

I agree with most of your suggestions! I feel Argonians are also a bit of African culture as well tho.

High Elves always gave me a 1600-1880s French feel, in landscape and structures (but that could just be me).

Dark elves always felt a little too USA to me. Their history kinda reflect USA history as well.
Dark elves were once Alder then moved away for differences in religion..Pilgrims did the same and moved to America.
Dark elves enslaved other races..so did the USA (and a lot of other European countries, but USA gets the biggest tag on this).
Dark elves also changed in appearance quiet a lot due to several reasons, but maybe since USA was primarily a European colony they changed so much from the cultures they came from? Just a thought.

RaddlemanNumber7

Orcs are highlanders, especially in the Wrothgarians, also some of the stronghold Orcs in Skyrim.

Reachmen are highlanders.

I know there are a lot mountains around Skyrim but, as we have seen in TES V and ESO, if you go up a mountain in Skyrim you will find Reachmen or stronghold Orcs there, not Nords (High Hrothgar is the exception). Nords are lowlanders and sea-farers.

As far as real-world analogues are concerned Reachmen are based on the Celtic Fringe of Western Europe - the Scottish Highlands, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Galicia(?), with Britany being the most civilised part of course (sorry if I missed anyone out from that list). Reachmen are related to Bretons.

If Skyrim were Scotland the Nords would be the Sassenachs there

YstradClud

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

As far as real-world analogues are concerned Reachmen are based on the Celtic Fringe of Western Europe - the Scottish Highlands, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Galicia(?), with Britany being the most civilised part of course (sorry if I missed anyone out from that list). Reachmen are related to Bretons.

Going to stay out of the real world analogues now but thanks for another perspective.

Grianasteri

Phanex wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

I think both Nords and Orcs nod to a Celtic/Nordic aesthetic and culture.

I have always felt Wood elves also have a nod towards the Celts, as well as Native Americans.

Argonians are clearly representative of South American ancient cultures and peoples.

Khajiit are South East Asian in aesthetic/feel.

Bretons are North European - Medieval

Redguard are Middle Eastern and African influenced.

Imperials are South European - Roman/Greek but also representative of modern USA I feel.

Dark elves and High elves... hmmn, combinations of quite a few of the others are to be found.

I agree with most of your suggestions! I feel Argonians are also a bit of African culture as well tho.

High Elves always gave me a 1600-1880s French feel, in landscape and structures (but that could just be me).

Dark elves always felt a little too USA to me. Their history kinda reflect USA history as well.
Dark elves were once Alder then moved away for differences in religion..Pilgrims did the same and moved to America.
Dark elves enslaved other races..so did the USA (and a lot of other European countries, but USA gets the biggest tag on this).
Dark elves also changed in appearance quiet a lot due to several reasons, but maybe since USA was primarily a European colony they changed so much from the cultures they came from? Just a thought.

@Phanex Yes I do agree, Argonians have something of Africa about them culturally/aesthetically. Interestingly their use of bamboo seems more South East Asian influenced, but it seems clear to me that the Khajiit more embody SE Asia, but conversely I think they also draw from the Middle East/Africa.

I can see what you are saying regarding the Dark elves. I do not get a French feel from the High elves though. I think both Dark and High elves are pretty similar culturally and societally, its mainly the aesthetics which differ (putting aside history/lore).

Phanex

@Grianasteri I've watch some documenteris about French castles and gardens in the last few months (okay, this virus has interrupted my social life a lot). Just about every castle and garden show reminded me of Summerset, and a little of Auridon environment/flora.

If you google French castles like the Château Chenonceau I think you can see why it reminds me of the High Elves (Summerset at least). France is also well know for the wine gardens (Seen a few in Summerset) and their flora/gardens.

Although Bamboo is seen mostly used in Eastern Asia, it does grow naturally in Africa as well (I had to google to make sure). So, I can see it both ways.

When I go to Elsweyr I get a lot of what your suggesting, but I also assumed they modeled Elsweyr after India more so than anyone else. But again, in just a few structures, not all of their homes and such.

mairwen85

YstradClud wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

Not the Nords, they follow a bit more of a Norse settler, invader history.

The lore seems to support the argument that the Nords proper came to Tamriel after the Orcs but as Ratzkifal pointed out it appears there was a human race called the Nedes living in Northern Tamriel at the same time as the early Orcs as well. The Nedes were completely exterminated by the Yokudan however.

Well... as with most of TES lore, it depends on who you ask and which books you read:
Nedes of the Deathlands
Before the Ages of Man (alt version)

2 prevailing theories exist for the origins of the Nedes as either an umbrella term for settlers and refugees from Atmora who appeared as individual waves migrating into Tamriel over time, or as a distinct race of manfolk born directly into Tamriel from The Throat of The World. The latter is what the Nords believe; the first Nedic people were from Tamriel, migrated to Atmora, and returned under Ysgramor as Nords.

There's an old, but interesting discussion on the depiction of Nede vs Nord heritage in ESO, and you can find Nedes in a nutshell wiki articles. There are many 'manfolk' in Tamriel, and the Nedes are considered the progenitors for most of them (bar Redgaurds [Yokuda]), but who the Nedes rightly are and their origins are sketchy. It's almost like a bad joke: when is a Nede not a Nede? So many tribes and different descriptions, and ultimately descendants... it makes you question whether a single race of Nedes ever truly existed at all.

Faulgor

Grianasteri wrote: »

I think both Nords and Orcs nod to a Celtic/Nordic aesthetic and culture.

I have always felt Wood elves also have a nod towards the Celts, as well as Native Americans.

Argonians are clearly representative of South American ancient cultures and peoples.

Khajiit are South East Asian in aesthetic/feel.

Bretons are North European - Medieval

Redguard are Middle Eastern and African influenced.

Imperials are South European - Roman/Greek but also representative of modern USA I feel.

Dark elves and High elves... hmmn, combinations of quite a few of the others are to be found.

Earlier versions of Redguard culture also had a considerable Japanese influence. I mean, one of their greatest heroes is Gaiden Shinji.

If we get to Hammerfell in TESVI, I hope Bethesda considers this.

YstradClud

mairwen85 wrote: »

It's almost like a bad joke: when is a Nede not a Nede? So many tribes and different descriptions, and ultimately descendants... it makes you question whether a single race of Nedes ever truly existed at all.

I don't doubt they existed but they certainly were scattered and assimilated with other races even before they were conquered by the Yokudans. But your right TES lore often seems to contradict itself. Bethesda needs to make some more official lore pages.

mairwen85

YstradClud wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

It's almost like a bad joke: when is a Nede not a Nede? So many tribes and different descriptions, and ultimately descendants... it makes you question whether a single race of Nedes ever truly existed at all.

I don't doubt they existed but they certainly were scattered and assimilated with other races even before they were conquered by the Yokudans. But your right TES lore often seems to contradict itself. Bethesda needs to make some more official lore pages.

What I mean is 'Nede' is a catch-all, or umbrella term that homogenises the many Nedic tribes who were actually all distinct peoples with their own cultures and heritages. When people speak of the Nedes being 'exterminated' by the Yokudans (Anka-Ra), for example, they are only really speaking about the Duraki, not all Nedes.

I like that TES lore is contradictory and often unreliable, and that many sources conflict or serve an individual agenda. Real history is like that too. History is a patchwork of sources and voices, and agenda, so despite most of it seemingly corroborating, a lot of it is contradictory.

YstradClud

mairwen85 wrote: »

What I mean is 'Nede' is a catch-all, or umbrella term that homogenises the many Nedic tribes who were actually all distinct peoples with their own cultures and heritages.

Well if that page you linked is correct the Nords are descendants of the Nede tribe of Kreath from Falkreath. King Kestic was their ruler.

mairwen85

YstradClud wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

What I mean is 'Nede' is a catch-all, or umbrella term that homogenises the many Nedic tribes who were actually all distinct peoples with their own cultures and heritages.

Well if that page you linked is correct the Nords are descendants of the Nede tribe of Kreath from Falkreath. King Kestic was their ruler.

It's uncertain if the Men-of-Kreath became the Nords, but they are certainly linked to elements of Nord heritage. When you consider that the First Empire of the Nords was already well established by 1E 290 and that it consisted of all northern regions of Tamriel by that date, and that King Kestic was an under-king of one of those regions during a latter period (1E 800-ish), it seems unlikely that the Men-of-Kreath were the progenitors of the Nords, but more likely that the original groups of tribes men who were 'acquired' for slavery by the Ayleids in early 1E had Nords among them as well as Nedes--not much lore suggests direct ancestry, especially when the timeline tells us that they co-existed at that point in time, but rather a common one from an earlier period, or that the Men-of-Kreath became Nords (assimilated). This is why the lore pages on the wiki use the word 'suggest'; it's ambiguous, particularly because technically Nords are Nedes but not always vice-versa.

YstradClud

mairwen85 wrote: »

This is why the lore pages on the wiki use the word 'suggest'; it's ambiguous, particularly because technically Nords are Nedes but not always vice-versa.

Even the Breton's fall under that category as they also mixed blood Nedes and Aldmeri and the Orcs are transformed Altmer after Boethiah ate Trinimac. Anyway thanks for the information I think my question has been cleared up somewhat now.

mairwen85

YstradClud wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

This is why the lore pages on the wiki use the word 'suggest'; it's ambiguous, particularly because technically Nords are Nedes but not always vice-versa.

Even the Breton's fall under that category as they also mixed blood Nedes and Aldmeri and the Orcs are transformed Altmer after Boethiah ate Trinimac. Anyway thanks for the information I think my question has been cleared up somewhat now.

Yes, Bretons are descendants of the Aldmeri-Nedes, the Manmeri, but they aren't a Nedic people in the same way Nords are though, but the result of interbreeding between Direnni and Nedic concubines when they were taken in as vassals. Bretons are several generations after the proto-manmer, whereas Nords are arguably unchanged from when they first appeared in Tamriel. Happy you got the answers you were looking for (essentially boils down to who settled the northern territories first).