Nerf nirnhoned but buff divines???

Iron_Blurr

Seriously? Nirnhoned armor offers less than .5% damage mitigation per piece of nirn armor. If anything it deserved a buff not a nerf. Literally no one uses Nirn armor. Also you buff divines armor?? The most overused and overpowered armor trait in the game? Also the totally insignificant buff to invigorating is laughable at best.
I dont understand the reasoning for the trait changes.

Kurat

Most BiS dps sets got nerfed and bloodthirsty also. I guess maybe they wanted to compensate some with divines buff.

olsborg

Invigorating trait is still trash after the «buff».

Runefang

What the excel sheet demands the excel sheet gets. It must have said Nirnhorned was over powered compared to divines. Even though nobody ever uses it...

redspecter23

Very confusing change for sure. I would have liked a dev note on that one with some sort of explanation.

Note: We've found that a large amount of players are buying up nirnhoned armor pieces from stores (for research) so that must mean there is large demand for the trait. Magic 8 ball says we must nerf.

Fur_like_snow

Remember when Summerset came out and a patch later they said swift was over performing? Well in 2020 it gets a buff.

Dracane

(PvP)
With 2100 armor at 7 pieces, nirnhoned was actually one of the more noticeable traits, at least when compared to the overpowered state of impenetrable and well-fitted. Divine on the other hand, unless used with the shadow, was actually a pretty bad trait. Not in pve, but in pvp.

The divine buff is good and right, since its only good foundation - the shadow - has been adjusted accordingly so that divine becomes exclusively more attractive for mundus stones that are still underperforming.

The Nirnhoned nerf was unjustified, yet even more unjustified is a buff to well-fitted... the one and only truly overpowered trait in the game. Who in their right mind would even consider buffing this? Have you set a foot in pvp since Greymoor? If anything, this needed to be brought down to 3%, not buffed. I hope this was just a bold mistake and will be corrected in the right direction.

What will you use divines with in pvp? The apprentice/warrior? So you gain base 151 spell/weapon damage? Or would you rather use well-fitted for 42!!!!% dodge and sprint reduction or 13% less crit damage suffered with impenetrable? Yea, you will not give up on well-fitted or impenetrable unless you are insane or a stamina nightblade - whom were always fortunate enough to make nearly everything work and get away with it.

But besides that, no, divines is not overpowered or even good.

Taleof2Cities

It seems like decades ago when Nirnhoned was actually a valued trait ... worth completing the Craglorn zone quest on multiple characters and engaging in sprint wars with fellow Craglorn farmers.

You're right, @Iron_Blurr.

Sahidom

This doesn't make sense. I sort of was hoping they'd do a hybrid split between some impen and extra resistances.

Vaoh

They don’t play the game. The excel sheet makes these decisions.

Mayrael

Dracane wrote: »

(PvP)
With 2100 armor at 7 pieces, nirnhoned was actually one of the more noticeable traits, at least when compared to the overpowered state of impenetrable and well-fitted. Divine on the other hand, unless used with the shadow, was actually a pretty bad trait. Not in pve, but in pvp.

The divine buff is good and right, since its only good foundation - the shadow - has been adjusted accordingly so that divine becomes exclusively more attractive for mundus stones that are still underperforming.

The Nirnhoned nerf was unjustified, yet even more unjustified is a buff to well-fitted... the one and only truly overpowered trait in the game. Who in their right mind would even consider buffing this? Have you set a foot in pvp since Greymoor? If anything, this needed to be brought down to 3%, not buffed. I hope this was just a bold mistake and will be corrected in the right direction.

What will you use divines with in pvp? The apprentice/warrior? So you gain base 151 spell/weapon damage? Or would you rather use well-fitted for 42!!!!% dodge and sprint reduction or 13% less crit damage suffered with impenetrable? Yea, you will not give up on well-fitted or impenetrable unless you are insane or a stamina nightblade - whom were always fortunate enough to make nearly everything work and get away with it.

But besides that, no, divines is not overpowered or even good.

I agree with everything except one point though. I like new well-fitted because it favours more Light Armor users than Medium Armor users. Why? Because of how cost reduction is calculated (I skip CP passive because everyone have access to it).


NEW WELL-FITTED

Base cost of roll dodge is something around 4040 stamina +34 floor value.

With 49% reduction from WF cost drops to
4040*(1-0,49)+34=2094.

With WF and medium armor passive, assuming you wear 7 pieces of medium armor we will have
4040*(1-0,49)*(1-0,28)+34=1517

Now 1517/(4040+34) = 37% it means that medium armor user will pay 37% of base cost to roll dodge.

2175/(4040+34) = 52% of base cost to roll dodge for LA user.


OLD WELL-FITTED
To skip the math it ends with 43% base cost for MA user and 59% for LA user, meaning that MA users have gained 5% cost reduction with this change while LA user gained 7% cost reduction. In conclusion this change favours a bit LA users nerfing well-fitted would make only MA stronger in comparison.

WrathOfInnos

Divines was handled really well. The Shadow was overperforming compared to other mundus stones, but just bringing it down from 13% to 11% would have caused issues. With the integer math there would have been cases where adding more divines would give no effect (0 or 1 divines gives 11%, 5 or 6 divines gives 15%).

This is why divines was increased to 9.1%, so that each additional piece of divines used with the Shadow Stone increases crit damage by 9.1% x 11% = 1.00%. So now every piece of divines added has an effect, and Shadow’s bonus always lands on a whole number and doesn’t get rounded down. A clever solution IMO.

The increase of divines also had the benefit of slightly buffing the effects of underperforming mundus stones. Thief with 7 divines increased from 10.6% crit to 11.4%. This also helped Shadow and Thief reach the balance on PTS (and they are very well balanced on PTS).

Nirnhoned on the other hand, I do not have an explanation for. On both weapons and armor, Nirn is underperforming. It’s also the rarest and most expensive trait. Seems like it should have been buffed. Reinforced is better on most armor pieces (anything over 1581 base armor, which means all the medium and heavy armor pieces except belt and gloves). IMO Nirn should just be reworked on armor, we don’t need 2 traits that do the same thing with slightly different values.

agegarton

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

Seriously? Nirnhoned armor offers less than .5% damage mitigation per piece of nirn armor. If anything it deserved a buff not a nerf. Literally no one uses Nirn armor. Also you buff divines armor?? The most overused and overpowered armor trait in the game? Also the totally insignificant buff to invigorating is laughable at best.
I dont understand the reasoning for the trait changes.

If there's one area in the game that clearly depicts ZoS own lack of understanding of this game, it's the situation with traits. They have been toyed with multiple times but we consistently end up with a majority of traits being either trash or incredibly niche / fringe, and two maybe three being what EVERYONE uses.

I also can't see any logic in nerfing Nirn. If anything, with other changes made in the game, this could be a great opportunity to make Nirn a viable alternative (potent and fortified). It wouldn't take much to make it a toss up between impen and nirn in PVP, for example, which arguably would reinvigorate Craglorn as a PVE area.

It just needs some joined-up thinking, but we seem to see none of that from ZoS at the moment. Still, hope springs eternal!

Ivan04

Nirnhoned was already beating reinforced in almost every way. Considering how crit resists are less important in PVP rn, this was a small nerf to pvp tanks. Divines always needed help, because it's one of the few traits that directly buffs your damage. Comparing the buffs you get from traits to standart set bonuses - divines was pretty bad.

Stx

After seeing some of these changes I'm more certain than ever the devs dont play their own game.

Nirnhoned was a very niche trait for small armor pieces only, it provided slightly more armor than what divines would give you with the lady stone.

Now it is 110% useless.

Good job ZOS!

Fur_like_snow

The spread sheet said to many players bought nirn from the guild trader for research so it had to be brought in line with the standard.

Vaoh

Armor needs an Ult Generation trait. Either Nirnhoned or Invigiorating tbh.

Iron_Blurr

Ivan04 wrote: »

Nirnhoned was already beating reinforced in almost every way. Considering how crit resists are less important in PVP rn, this was a small nerf to pvp tanks. Divines always needed help, because it's one of the few traits that directly buffs your damage. Comparing the buffs you get from traits to standart set bonuses - divines was pretty bad.

How on earth was nirn beating reinforced?? It offered 301 resistance and they just nerfed it. Reinforced is a percentage increase. Previously reinforced was better than nirn on every heavy armor piece except heavy belts and arms. And even that got nerfed. Now im not sure it's worth running at all when you could get better returns probably running the lady stone with divines..

Olupajmibanan

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Divines was handled really well. The Shadow was overperforming compared to other mundus stones, but just bringing it down from 13% to 11% would have caused issues. With the integer math there would have been cases where adding more divines would give no effect (0 or 1 divines gives 11%, 5 or 6 divines gives 15%).

This is why divines was increased to 9.1%, so that each additional piece of divines used with the Shadow Stone increases crit damage by 9.1% x 11% = 1.00%. So now every piece of divines added has an effect, and Shadow’s bonus always lands on a whole number and doesn’t get rounded down. A clever solution IMO.

The increase of divines also had the benefit of slightly buffing the effects of underperforming mundus stones. Thief with 7 divines increased from 10.6% crit to 11.4%. This also helped Shadow and Thief reach the balance on PTS (and they are very well balanced on PTS).

Nirnhoned on the other hand, I do not have an explanation for. On both weapons and armor, Nirn is underperforming. It’s also the rarest and most expensive trait. Seems like it should have been buffed. Reinforced is better on most armor pieces (anything over 1581 base armor, which means all the medium and heavy armor pieces except belt and gloves). IMO Nirn should just be reworked on armor, we don’t need 2 traits that do the same thing with slightly different values.

It would be a clever solution if it applied widely to all Mundus stones and not to shadow only. Look at the Ritual, for example, which was nerfed to 8% and now you can get to state where adding a divine piece does nothing.

With the Ritual Mundus:
1st divine piece does nothing
2nd does
3th does
4th does nothing
5th does
6th does
7th does
This is the most sad story. 3 Infused on big pieces and 4 divines on small pieces is pretty common setup, but from now on, using this setup you'll waste 1 trait.

WrathOfInnos

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Divines was handled really well. The Shadow was overperforming compared to other mundus stones, but just bringing it down from 13% to 11% would have caused issues. With the integer math there would have been cases where adding more divines would give no effect (0 or 1 divines gives 11%, 5 or 6 divines gives 15%).

This is why divines was increased to 9.1%, so that each additional piece of divines used with the Shadow Stone increases crit damage by 9.1% x 11% = 1.00%. So now every piece of divines added has an effect, and Shadow’s bonus always lands on a whole number and doesn’t get rounded down. A clever solution IMO.

The increase of divines also had the benefit of slightly buffing the effects of underperforming mundus stones. Thief with 7 divines increased from 10.6% crit to 11.4%. This also helped Shadow and Thief reach the balance on PTS (and they are very well balanced on PTS).

Nirnhoned on the other hand, I do not have an explanation for. On both weapons and armor, Nirn is underperforming. It’s also the rarest and most expensive trait. Seems like it should have been buffed. Reinforced is better on most armor pieces (anything over 1581 base armor, which means all the medium and heavy armor pieces except belt and gloves). IMO Nirn should just be reworked on armor, we don’t need 2 traits that do the same thing with slightly different values.

It would be a clever solution if it applied widely to all Mundus stones and not to shadow only. Look at the Ritual, for example, which was nerfed to 8% and now you can get to state where adding a divine piece does nothing.

With the Ritual Mundus:
1st divine piece does nothing
2nd does
3th does
4th does nothing
5th does
6th does
7th does
This is the most sad story. 3 Infused on big pieces and 4 divines on small pieces is pretty common setup, but from now on, using this setup you'll waste 1 trait.

@Olupajmibanan Interesting information. I wasn’t aware that Healing Done also rounded down to the nearest integer. With most stats it doesn’t matter much, because things like Thief actually keep the bonus after the decimal place (7.6% crit chance is better than 7.0% crit chance).

In that case I think it’s clear that the Ritual also needs to be base 11% so that it can follow the same math as Shadow, and increase by 1% per piece of gold divines. It was 10% in Greymoor, so a 1% buff wouldn’t be too problematic. It’s not like 11% is overpowered anyway, given the additive nature with CPs, Powered and Minor/Major mending, Argonian passives, and various class passives. It will never actually increase healing by the % it states, more like 2/3 of that value.