Mundus Stone / Weapon Trait Balance?

WrathOfInnos

Until this patch, we had (mostly) a 1:1 ratio between the magnitude of Mundus Stones, before the Divines multiplier, and Weapon Traits.

Greymoor
Precise = Thief = 7%
Sharpened = Lover = 2752
Defending = Lady = 2752
Powered = 9%, Ritual = 10% (trait is 90% of mundus)
Nirnhoned = 15% (200 typ), Apprentice/Warrior = 238 (trait is 84% of mundus)

Stonethorn
Precise = 8.6%, Thief = 7% (trait is 123% of mundus)
Sharpened = 3276, Lover = 2744 (trait is 119% of mundus)
Defending: 3276, Lady = 2744 (trait is 119% of mundus)
Powered: 9%, Ritual = 8% (trait is 113% of mundus)
Nirnhoned = 15% (200 typ), Apprentice/Warrior = 238 (trait is 84% of mundus)

So I think I see a pattern of traits being about 20% stronger than mundus stones now, but powered doesn't quite fit this. It should be closer at 10% healing done, or 125% of the Ritual's 8%. Also Nirnhoned was left untouched, which is strange because it is the weakest trait with most weapon types, and usually gives only 84% of a mundus stone (for 1h, bow and all staff types). Nirn does perform a little better on 2h and dual wield, but that just makes it difficult to balance. Maybe it should become a flat 120% of Apprentice/Warrior or 286 weapon/spell damage.

It's also interesting to see the recovery mundus stones, Atronach and Serpent, getting increased to 310 so they are no longer 1:1 with Warrior and Apprentice (weapon or spell damage). This makes sense, since despite being treated as 1:1 in all other game systems, resource recovery has always been considered weaker than weapon or spell damage. Defining this ratio as 310/238 = 1.3 seems about right. Now I wonder if set bonuses and enchants will see the same treatment. Will a standard magicka/stamina recovery set bonus be increased to 129 x 1.3 = 168? Will magicka/stamina recovery jewelry glyphs increase to 174 x 1.3 = 226? What about cost reduction jewelry glyphs, which are currently balanced pretty well with recovery, and would also need to be increased by 30% to maintain that balance. Will 5 piece sets like Lich/Seducer/Amberplasm and sustain monster masks be reviewed to fit this new recovery standard (I have a whole discussion on Grundwulf)? Also it seems like the Steed was forgotten, shouldn't health recovery also see the same 30% increase?

Lughlongarm

Nirnhoned got higher values on 2H, 1H and DW. They can consider change the % bonus to flat value.
But will it be a buff?

Let's say they change it to 142/285 SD/WD to be 1.2 mundus. This is a nerf for 1H and DW and a buff for 2H, bows and staves.

Dracane

I presume that there really is no system to it anymore.
It is good they keep nirnhoned and sharpened different. Sharpened for pure damage and nirnhoned for damage and healing. Or Nirnhoned for Stamina and Sharpened for Magicka, which fits the current philosophy of stamina having more damage and magicka more penetration.

All in all, I applaud the changes. Although I had hoped that underperforming mundus stones would be buffed. Like the Apprentice/Warrior and especially the Tower and the Mage. Warrior and Apprentice might be up for debate, but Tower and Mage are so far behind and needed a decent boost. Nobody uses the Tower and the Mage was only used by Magsorcs who wanted to push their pet damage and healing, which is now off the table. The Apprentice is better for these situations at this point.

Yet instead, the already weakest Mundus Stones got nerfed, even if just a little. The message matters.

Lughlongarm

Dracane wrote: »

I presume that there really is no system to it anymore.
It is good they keep nirnhoned and sharpened different. Sharpened for pure damage and nirnhoned for damage and healing. Or Nirnhoned for Stamina and Sharpened for Magicka, which fits the current philosophy of stamina having more damage and magicka more penetration.

All in all, I applaud the changes. Although I had hoped that underperforming mundus stones would be buffed. Like the Apprentice/Warrior and especially the Tower and the Mage. Warrior and Apprentice might be up for debate, but Tower and Mage are so far behind and needed a decent boost. Nobody uses the Tower and the Mage was only used by Magsorcs who wanted to push their pet damage and healing, which is now off the table. The Apprentice is better for these situations at this point.

Yet instead, the already weakest Mundus Stones got nerfed, even if just a little. The message matters.

Every max magicka toon is using the mage in PvP. Sorcs/Wardens/NB etc....

Dracane

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I presume that there really is no system to it anymore.
It is good they keep nirnhoned and sharpened different. Sharpened for pure damage and nirnhoned for damage and healing. Or Nirnhoned for Stamina and Sharpened for Magicka, which fits the current philosophy of stamina having more damage and magicka more penetration.

All in all, I applaud the changes. Although I had hoped that underperforming mundus stones would be buffed. Like the Apprentice/Warrior and especially the Tower and the Mage. Warrior and Apprentice might be up for debate, but Tower and Mage are so far behind and needed a decent boost. Nobody uses the Tower and the Mage was only used by Magsorcs who wanted to push their pet damage and healing, which is now off the table. The Apprentice is better for these situations at this point.

Yet instead, the already weakest Mundus Stones got nerfed, even if just a little. The message matters.

Every max magicka toon is using the mage in PvP. Sorcs/Wardens/NB etc....

Why would they? What use has Warden for the Mage? Everything they have scales better with spell damage, same goes for Nightblade. Those pitiful 150 shield strength you get to your annulment with the mage is not worth losing out on more damage or sustain.

Mage should have been increased to at least 2200-2300. Tower as well.

Lughlongarm

Dracane wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I presume that there really is no system to it anymore.
It is good they keep nirnhoned and sharpened different. Sharpened for pure damage and nirnhoned for damage and healing. Or Nirnhoned for Stamina and Sharpened for Magicka, which fits the current philosophy of stamina having more damage and magicka more penetration.

All in all, I applaud the changes. Although I had hoped that underperforming mundus stones would be buffed. Like the Apprentice/Warrior and especially the Tower and the Mage. Warrior and Apprentice might be up for debate, but Tower and Mage are so far behind and needed a decent boost. Nobody uses the Tower and the Mage was only used by Magsorcs who wanted to push their pet damage and healing, which is now off the table. The Apprentice is better for these situations at this point.

Yet instead, the already weakest Mundus Stones got nerfed, even if just a little. The message matters.

Every max magicka toon is using the mage in PvP. Sorcs/Wardens/NB etc....

Why would they? What use has Warden for the Mage? Everything they have scales better with spell damage, same goes for Nightblade. Those pitiful 150 shield strength you get to your annulment with the mage is not worth losing out on more damage or sustain.

Mage should have been increased to at least 2200-2300. Tower as well.

1)Because shields on max magicka toons is best source of deference.

2)Because is scales with CP, Inner Light, Class passives(15% for warden).

Dracane

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I presume that there really is no system to it anymore.
It is good they keep nirnhoned and sharpened different. Sharpened for pure damage and nirnhoned for damage and healing. Or Nirnhoned for Stamina and Sharpened for Magicka, which fits the current philosophy of stamina having more damage and magicka more penetration.

All in all, I applaud the changes. Although I had hoped that underperforming mundus stones would be buffed. Like the Apprentice/Warrior and especially the Tower and the Mage. Warrior and Apprentice might be up for debate, but Tower and Mage are so far behind and needed a decent boost. Nobody uses the Tower and the Mage was only used by Magsorcs who wanted to push their pet damage and healing, which is now off the table. The Apprentice is better for these situations at this point.

Yet instead, the already weakest Mundus Stones got nerfed, even if just a little. The message matters.

Every max magicka toon is using the mage in PvP. Sorcs/Wardens/NB etc....

Why would they? What use has Warden for the Mage? Everything they have scales better with spell damage, same goes for Nightblade. Those pitiful 150 shield strength you get to your annulment with the mage is not worth losing out on more damage or sustain.

Mage should have been increased to at least 2200-2300. Tower as well.

1)Because shields on max magicka toons is best source of deference.

2)Because is scales with CP, Inner Light, Class passives(15% for warden).

Also think of no CP where there is no 20% magicka bonus from Champion Points. Which is likely more than half of pvp with battlegrounds also being no CP.

So Mage and Tower need a significant buff to also make them more viable there, which again, is the majority of pvp. Even with a buff, they would remain weaker than Apprentice and Warrior even in CP.

Jodynn

Was about to make a post about this very thing, thank you @WrathOfInnos

Just make Nirnhoned a flat buff if they are worried about 2 handed causing issues, and they seem to be navigating to flat instead of % lately. Two handed and staff should increase the same while one handed should increase less, the fact Nirnhoned has always been weaker on staves though it also takes two hands has always bothered me.

I can confirm your feelings on glyphs, dropping a spell damage glyph for cost or recovery in a PvE context I find myself doing anything except that because it's a major loss.

Dracane

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Was about to make a post about this very thing, thank you @WrathOfInnos

Just make Nirnhoned a flat buff if they are worried about 2 handed causing issues, and they seem to be navigating to flat instead of % lately. Two handed and staff should increase the same while one handed should increase less, the fact Nirnhoned has always been weaker on staves though it also takes two hands has always bothered me.

I can confirm your feelings on glyphs, dropping a spell damage glyph for cost or recovery in a PvE context I find myself doing anything except that because it's a major loss.

You would think, that by making all ranged attacks generally weaker and more expensive than melee abilities, justice is served.
But no, ranged weapons also have a lot less base damage than 2handed melee weapons. I never liked this in MMOs.

Jodynn

Dracane wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Was about to make a post about this very thing, thank you @WrathOfInnos

Just make Nirnhoned a flat buff if they are worried about 2 handed causing issues, and they seem to be navigating to flat instead of % lately. Two handed and staff should increase the same while one handed should increase less, the fact Nirnhoned has always been weaker on staves though it also takes two hands has always bothered me.

I can confirm your feelings on glyphs, dropping a spell damage glyph for cost or recovery in a PvE context I find myself doing anything except that because it's a major loss.

You would think, that by making all ranged attacks generally weaker and more expensive than melee abilities, justice is served.
But no, ranged weapons also have a lot less base damage than 2handed melee weapons. I never liked this in MMOs.

I also have to use a ranged weapon as magDK even though I am indeed melee since there is no melee fire stick ( although I'd love for there to be )

WrathOfInnos

It was pointed out to me that Ritual, like Shadow, rounds down to a whole number. This means that with either 8%, 9% or 10% healing done as a base effect, the first piece of divines does nothing. This is a problem, and I now believe Ritual needs to be 11% healing done so that each piece of divines adds 0.091 x 11 = 1% healing. This is the solution that was implemented for Shadow, and seemingly the reason divines is now 9.1% to work well with the now-balanced 11% crit damage Shadow.

MashmalloMan

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Defining this ratio as 310/238 = 1.3 seems about right. Now I wonder if set bonuses and enchants will see the same treatment. Will a standard magicka/stamina recovery set bonus be increased to 129 x 1.3 = 168? Will magicka/stamina recovery jewelry glyphs increase to 174 x 1.3 = 226?

I've been saying this for such a long time. 129 stam/mag regen should not equal 129 wep/spell dmg as their standard for everything. This should be taken even further for HP regen which is usually given for free on different sets or multiplied by a much larger number in comparison to current standards.

For example: Beekeeper is a static set. The 5th piece bonus now gives +900 hp regen which is 200% stronger than it should be if 129 HP regen is equal to 129 weapon damage since Hundings Rage/Spriggan's/Fortified Brass set a standard of 5th piece static bonus, no conditions, singular stat equals a multiplier of about 2.32 *.

900 HP regen from Beekeeper is a multiplier of 6.97 * vs the 129 on 1-4 piece bonuses.

Not saying this is bad, Beekeeper deserved the buff and HP regen sucks for most content, but if ZOS is about standards, where the hell is the standard for HP regen and can they land on something for existing 1-4 piece bonuses already? I know the 129 HP regen from sets like Engine Guardian could us a buff.

Here's my theory: They have planned on increasing HP regen and even stam/mag regen 1-4 piece bonuses for awhile. If we use the Hundings Rage vs Beekeeper argument here. 900/2.32 = 388. This shows us by reversing the standard multiplier that 1-4 piece bonuses for HP Regen should equal 388 per piece, not 129.

Now stam/mag regen.

They should of always been about 1.1 - 1.2x stronger than weapon/spell damage. This is the exact reason I feel races like Woodelf and Khajiit feel so underwhelming. Consider the fact that Orc/High Elf/Dark Elf in pve will use tri-stat foods to get about +310 regen. This 310 is usually enough with other combined group sustain tools.

For Wood Elves, they go with bi-stat food to close the gap. 258 regen and 310 regen would be too much.

As a result.

Wood Elves get about +7k stamina, +258 stamina regen and 5k hp.
Orc gets about +5k stamina, +310 stamina regen, +258 weapon damage and +4.5k hp.

So.. Wood Elves actually get worse damage AND sustain to be slightly tankier.. even though they're a sustain race. Orc's get more damage AND sustain, at no real cost, since you can have just enough HP with them.

Updating regen standards would indirectly buff Wood Elves to 300-350 stam regen. This should also buff Khajiit's to roughly 200+ HP regen and 100+ stam/mag regen which, combined with 1 stam/mag regen new standard glyph would help them equal that 310+ regen.

More options, more viability.

MashmalloMan

Also.. why are regen enchantments +169, while damage enchantments are +172?

This results in tri-regen glyphs giving +84 each stat (168/2) instead of +86 (172/2).

If they're suppose to be 129=129, why is this different?