Fennorian as house guest pls

Wolf_Eye

bluebird wrote: »

Also, I once again feel like there's a lot of irl personal baggage being projected onto Fennorian. People are free to like him and consider him a good male role model, whatever, more power to you, but there is actually quite a spectrum of characters and people - so there is more to characters and people than this alleged dichotomy of being either a character who gets captured/injured 3 times in the prologue and chapter OR someone who takes 'perverse pleasure out of tormenting and dominating women'. Like... those aren't the only two options y'know?

Look. There's a pandemic going on. And in case you forgotten, I literally mentioned I have a chronic health condition. There is absolutely no guarantee that I'm going to have a "mild" case if I ever caught it; it could very well kill me.

Forgive me if I'm "projecting irl personal baggage onto Fennorian", but don't you think I'm allowed to get a little bit attached to a fictional character when I've literally had my own death hanging over my head for these past few months? I think your implication here is a little unfair.

You are correct in the sense that there are more character tropes than just the two that I mentioned. I think the reason why I mentioned those two specifically was because I was comparing Fennorian to my LEAST favorite type of person and how he was the exact opposite of that (thus making him all the better). And while I admit that ESO has been a lot better than most games at displaying a lot more types of people than just the "dominating" type, that "dominating type" is still often used in various forms of media.

And there IS a lot more things that I like about this particular character, I'm just a bit too worn out to list them all though. Some of them would be my preference for healer type characters, my love for the "good guy vampire" trope, the denial of power for the sake of kindness (which ties in to the good guy vampire trope), alchemy (because for some strange reason I've always liked the idea of alchemy no matter what media it shows up in), the symbolic concept of him being an Altmer (who are obsessed with perfection. I don't know how to explain why this is important to me without divulging a whole lot about myself that I don't feel comfortable with right now), vampires status as the sort of spawn of Molag Bal (and the symbolism of how that ties into the main story)....I could go on, but let's just say it was a perfect cocktail of many different things that makes this SPECIFIC character stand out for me.

bluebird

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

Also, I once again feel like there's a lot of irl personal baggage being projected onto Fennorian. People are free to like him and consider him a good male role model, whatever, more power to you, but there is actually quite a spectrum of characters and people - so there is more to characters and people than this alleged dichotomy of being either a character who gets captured/injured 3 times in the prologue and chapter OR someone who takes 'perverse pleasure out of tormenting and dominating women'. Like... those aren't the only two options y'know?

Look. There's a pandemic going on. And in case you forgotten, I literally mentioned I have a chronic health condition. There is absolutely no guarantee that I'm going to have a "mild" case if I ever caught it; it could very well kill me.

Forgive me if I'm "projecting irl personal baggage onto Fennorian", but don't you think I'm allowed to get a little bit attached to a fictional character when I've literally had my own death hanging over my head for these past few months? I think your implication here is a little unfair.

You're allowed to be attached to any character you like. You're allowed to enjoy Fennorian, and have your reasons for doing so (just like people who dislike him are free to do so and have their reasons for doing so). Nobody was trying to take your enjoyment of Fennorian away from you, nor stop you from voicing the many reasons that make you enjoy him. There's even a Fennorian appreciation thread on the forums.

My comment about 'projecting' was simply highlighting that people are free to dislike Fenn (just like you're free to like Fenn), and unless someone specifically told you their reasons you can't actually know what made them dislike Fenn. People may have a myriad reasons for disliking Fenn; but those reasons don't have to be the same reasons that make you love him. So you can like him, and people can dislike him, but there was no mention anywhere of 'weak' people being 'worthless' or worthy of torture.

There was quite a leap to just assume that people dislike him just because he's weak and that it may not take too much for those people to want to torture you. I'm sorry if you have irl troubles and hope you'll be well.

Wolf_Eye

bluebird wrote: »

You're allowed to be attached to any character you like. You're allowed to enjoy Fennorian, and have your reasons for doing so (just like people who dislike him are free to do so and have their reasons for doing so). Nobody was trying to take your enjoyment of Fennorian away from you, nor stop you from voicing the many reasons that make you enjoy him. There's even a Fennorian appreciation thread on the forums.

My comment about 'projecting' was simply highlighting that people are free to dislike Fenn (just like you're free to like Fenn), and unless someone specifically told you their reasons you can't actually know what made them dislike Fenn. People may have a myriad reasons for disliking Fenn; but those reasons don't have to be the same reasons that make you love him. So you can like him, and people can dislike him, but there was no mention anywhere of 'weak' people being 'worthless' or worthy of torture.

There was quite a leap to just assume that people dislike him just because he's weak and that it may not take too much for those people to want to torture you. I'm sorry if you have irl troubles and hope you'll be well.

I think that my exhaustion addled brain has gotten the better of me, and that perhaps I'm not completely understanding what's going on in this thread.

I want to give you a response, but I'm not sure I can give you a proper one at this time due to my brain haze. I apologize, but hope you'll let me a moment to digest the information when I've had more rest

Syldras

bluebird wrote: »

There was one (now deleted) comment that called him the 'worst character' who wanted to torture him, another comment who said he's 'cute when he screams', and a comment that just called him annoying. The first two are pretty creepy, to be sure

Uhm... That was me and it was meant as a joke towards that stupid "I want to torture him" comment... to take it into a different direction, if you understand, what I mean My humour is a bit extreme at times. If someone really felt creeped out about it ( @Wolf_Eye ?) , I'm honestly sorry and would like to apologize.

Nairinhe

Nobody? Ok...
Following recent stream I have an addition for the subject: can we please have singing Fennorian as a guest?

Syldras

Nairinhe wrote: »

Nobody? Ok...
Following recent stream I have an addition for the subject: can we please have singing Fennorian as a guest?

But not emo style, please.

Nairinhe

Syldras wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

Nobody? Ok...
Following recent stream I have an addition for the subject: can we please have singing Fennorian as a guest?

But not emo style, please.

"Red Diamond" it is, then!

Syldras

Nairinhe wrote: »

"Red Diamond" it is, then!

Thought I'd get "Stagger and Sway" as a suggestion now - on the other hand, why would an Altmer sing a song about a Nord and his beer?!

Interesting that they mentioned emo in the stream, though (if I haven't misheard it - I was a bit busy). Is it really still a thing in the USA?

Nairinhe

Syldras wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

"Red Diamond" it is, then!

Thought I'd get "Stagger and Sway" as a suggestion now - on the other hand, why would an Altmer sing a song about a Nord and his beer?!

Interesting that they mentioned emo in the stream, though (if I haven't misheard it - I was a bit busy). Is it really still a thing in the USA?

Drunk singing Fennorian house guest! That's it!

And yep, emo were mentioned, but I've no idea if that culture is still alive anywhere.

Syldras

Nairinhe wrote: »

Drunk singing Fennorian house guest! That's it!

He looks so slender, I doubt he has a high tolerance for alcohol. I bet that's the real reason he doesn't drink blood from people - he's afraid of what would happen if he'd accidentially bite a drunken Nord

Nairinhe wrote: »

And yep, emo were mentioned, but I've no idea if that culture is still alive anywhere.

Strange. Emo wouldn't be my first association when it comes to vampires. Not at all, actually. My view of vampirism is... more serious than overly emotional 14-year-old kids with unflattering hairstyles

[Deleted User]

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for baiting and flaming, content that is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment or action on one's own account.

Thank you for understanding.

Cadbury

bluebird wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

Standing beside him, dripping wet and looking like a lost puppy, was a skinny High Elf with a dazed expression.

I like him, but...

Lol Well it also shows that the writers really were going for that 'wimpy hungry puppy' vibe deliberately... so in that case, they really did succeed. So no wonder many find him an emo deadweight on the story. Even his official character introduction went out of its way to make him seem as sad and pathetic as possible. Poor Fenn?

...I lowkey like MCR, and I'm not emo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhZTNgAs4Fc

Syldras

Cadbury wrote: »

...I lowkey like MCR, and I'm not emo

I don't think that's a problem. I somehow like this - and I'm not a pirate, let alone a Scottish pirate *shrugs*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sItK8lIGsC4

Wolf_Eye

Hey everyone. I'm sorry I left you all hanging for a bit; I had hoped I would feel better if I took a few days off. But I'm just....still so very worn out. And it seems that this won't change anytime in the near future, especially as the major hurricane part of the hurricane season (August-September) is just getting rearing up.

I wanted to apologize. For several things, actually.

First and foremost, I seem to have caused some misinterpretation in my original comment, and would like a moment to clarify: My original statement of "people who seem to enjoy talking about torturing Fenn make me uncomfortable" was mostly a general statement. And it's a true enough statement. When I was responding to Suna_Ye_Sunnabe, I was mostly thinking about a different comment on a different thread (it was a while ago, I think when Greymoor first came out. It might have actually even been a Reddit thread and not a forum thread). There was someone who was making very...uncomfortable comments and seemed determined to torture Fenn and it did come across as "I'm doing this because he's weak and therefore worthless".

In other words, I didn't actually see any comments about torturing in THIS thread; rather, I was making a generalized statement. Also @Syldras my statement wasn't meant to be directed towards you, and I deeply apologize if I made it come off that way. People saying they want to torture characters make me a little uncomfortable, but it's not NEARLY as uncomfortable when people imply the reason for their comment involves what they perceive as "weakness". Syldras, you did not make any such statement, so I'm not upset at you.

Also, the person who commented in THIS thread earlier joking about torturing did not specify it was because of weakness either. I did not see their comment either, nor was my statement directed towards them. Again, I apologize for that misinterpretation.

Next, @bluebird . I wanted to apologize to you as well. When you mentioned projecting onto characters, I got a little be fazed because I kind of interpreted the comment to be intentionally mocking me. But your later comment suggests that, perhaps, that was not the case? I'm actually still a little bit confused by some of the things you've said, but I think I will assume the intentions were probably good and not malicious here. I apologize that I got a little defensive as a result.

I am very likely getting attached to fictional characters as a way of coping with my stress right now. I think it's probably natural for a lot of people to do. So long as it doesn't involve death threats to real people, I think it's probably fine to get a little bit passionate about fiction.

And yes, that should include people who like to joke about torturing Fenn (as in, they are allowed to voice their dislike of a character and yeah, I suppose even joke about torturing them (although I'm still a little creeped out by that) as long as they don't bring real people into the mix. I.E. "I want to torture Fenn because he's weak!" = implies real people who are perceived as weak deserve to be tortured. Again Syldras and the person who commented earlier in this thread never said that, so you both are not included in this).

I hope that clarifies things.

(P.S. Dear Mods, I apologize this is long and I beg you your forgiveness and hope you will let me post this)

bluebird

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I was mostly thinking about a different comment on a different thread [...]
It might have actually even been a Reddit thread and not a forum thread [...]
Again Syldras and the person who commented earlier in this thread never said that [...]

@Wolf_Eye I have no hard feelings (and I hope it's mutual ), and my comment was never meant to mock anybody. I posted about 'projecting' earlier in the thread too; not as an attack on any player, simply as a discussion into what goes into liking/disliking Fennorian (and characters in general).

Most of my disagreement in this thread comes from the simple facts you also mentioned in the quotes above. I haven't seen any comment (either in this or the dedicated Fennorian thread) that included attacks on Fennorian or people in the ways that were mentioned. So without reading what you may have read, it seems like the Forums have plenty of posts defending Fennorian against these alleged haters who say atrocious things... but there seems to be very little to none of those actually atrocious sexist/violent/homophobic/dominating posts at all.

So it seemed like a lot of the offense taking on behalf of Fennorian was a Don Quixote-style tilting at windmill-giants that aren't actually there, based on just assuming what other people thought when they made their comments. That's the gist of it, but I'll go into more detail below if anybody cares to read it.

---

For example, Fennorian's character is as follows:

• He's a brown-haired Altmer, a young-ish male in mer years, and relatively inexperienced in Vampire years.
• He is shy and standoffish, and prefers to nerd out about alchemy and keep to himself rather than socialize. On a topic that he knows however, he is enthusiastic and knowledgable and shares conversation happily.
• He is tormented by his vampireness, and refuses to feed off living creatures (unlike other members of Ravenwatch who drink from live donors). He sticks to this principle even under duress, but has a dependency on his flask as a result, which he needs others to fetch for him.
• He is trying to do the right thing, and protect people even if those people don't even know he exists.
• He isn't physically strong (he is frail and of smaller stature than other Altmer, and his introduction article compares him to a puppy too) nor is he a particularly able agent (e.g. Gwendis, Adusa-daro), and even when he uses vampire speed he is gets overpowered/wounded/captured by others 3 separate times in the story.
• His alchemical and investigative talents make him a half-decent detective, although he has to rely on Old Mjolen in terms of alchemagical knowledge, and on the player several times to overcome obstacles and figure out riddles for him, so he's not particularly independent or successful by himself.

Now, without going into the technical details of why the writers made him this way (to allow for player character's agency, to contrast him with Lyris, to make Svana look good, to make players feel sorry and sympathy for him, whatever etc.) let's just accept that that's what we got, and that's what we have to work with.

Then based on the above, every player can pick parts they like/dislike wholly subjectively:

• Someone will love him because he's a hot long-haired vampire who has that smart nerd vibe they enjoy.
• Another one will respect his integrity, because he controls his urges with discipline, and tries to do the right thing.
• Another will dislike him because he's the 'weak damsel in distress' 3 times in the story which does get old.
• Yet another will dislike him because he talks more and does less than Gwendis/Adusa/Lyris and they find him boring.

All of those reactions to the character are equally valid. Some people will want to see more of him and get him as a Houseguests, others can't wait for this year's story to be over because they consider him an annoying waste of pixels. All of those reactions are a part of storytelling. But then, there are reactions that are based on projecting certain things into the character that aren't necessarily there. For example:

1. Some can consider him totally hot because he may resonate with irl emo vibes and they find that hot. Even though Fenn was never emotional or particularly poetically or romantically inclined in the game, players may feel that his reserved discipline and mild existential turmoil makes him an emotional, sensitive 'feminine' lover. And then from this can come the assumption that others who dislike him, dislike him for being 'feminine', when that may not have to anything with their dislike, or indeed may not even be a prominent trait of the character at all.
2. Or someone may find him sympathetic because he is vulnerable during the story (though not willingly, but rather made vulnerable by external forces), and they really enjoy him as a physically weak nerd type with whom they can share camaraderie. And then from player A's liking of Fenn's weakness can come the assumption that player B's dislike of Fenn is also based on his weakness; when other people's reasons for liking and disliking a character can be totally different, as I hoped I outlined in the 'character' sections many components that go into a character.

So there are many facets that go into building a character, and there are many themes and tropes that can make readers/players/watchers vibe with a character, where they can connect to them, where they can find parts in that complex make-up that grind their gears, or indeed where they can subjectively read that character in their own way, in terms of real life experiences or real life theories and criticisms.

Sorry for boring anybody (Literature major, lol), but for example Frankenstein is considered a symbol of suppressed femininity by some, an example of male-same-sex dynamics and the inability of producing offspring by others, and a depiction of science vs the holiness of godly creation or class struggles by yet other people. So all likes and dislikes are valid, but we can't really just presume what made others form a certain reaction, and take offense based on that.

Nairinhe

Thats a whole study! Very impressive and interesting

Syldras

@Wolf_Eyes It's okay.

bluebird wrote: »

Sorry for boring anybody (Literature major, lol), but for example Frankenstein is considered a symbol of suppressed femininity by some

I know it's off topic, but: What?! ... For me, that even surpasses Bruno Bettelheim's interpretations that every children's fairytale is actually about sex. At least everything I had to read from him summed up like this. A Freudian, of course...

Anyway, it would be interesting to hear from those who really hate Fennorian or even wrote about wanting to torture or murder him, what exactly their reasons are. You have made your point. The others with their more extreme expressions of dislike so far haven't.

Syldras

As it was more or less confirmed that Fennorian will return in the story DLC at the end of 2020: Do you think there will be any character development?

As much as I like him, for the sake of variety I really hope I'll don't have to fetch him his flask another 3 times. To be honest, already the last time I felt like just telling him: "Here's my wrist - now drink!" (Possibly with "...or I'll shove it down your throat!" added, for those who prefer the "intimidate" option Okay, bad joke. But they really could have made it a "persuade" thing?!).

I wouldn't even have minded to lose a few % of my char's health for a certain amount of time for the decision to let Fennorian drink from him. Would actually be interesting too, if it had an influence on Fennorian storywise (or at least dialogue-wise). But as they even missed the chance to choose between a "good" and a "bad" path as a vampire char... or having a difference at all depending on if you're a vampire or not... A pity they didn't make more of it. I might remember wrong, but I think you at least got a more dialogue differences as a necromancer in Elsweyr?

Nairinhe

Syldras wrote: »

As much as I like him, for the sake of variety I really hope I'll don't have to fetch him his flask another 3 times.

That's a fine idea for a daily quest!

Syldras

Nairinhe wrote: »

That's a fine idea for a daily quest!

Only if he loses it at the weirdest places for the weirdest reasons and you have humorous dialogue about it. Then I might consider it. Otherwise: Please no.

Ringing_Nirnroot

Now that adusa daro is a house guest, it's Fen's time to shinnnneee

Contaminate

Fen is honestly the best character in the game. As for people saying he did nothing, did you read any dialogue? Did you miss the part where he created the foundation of the theory behind the elixir to resist the Harrowstorms, or the elixir to cure the harrowed? Old Mjolen helped him, but she word for word says she’s amazed by his theories and knowledge.

People can come up with excuses as much as they want, but c’mon, 90% of the dislike boils down to toxic masculinity

bluebird

Contaminate wrote: »

Fen is honestly the best character in the game. As for people saying he did nothing, did you read any dialogue? Did you miss the part where he created the foundation of the theory behind the elixir to resist the Harrowstorms, or the elixir to cure the harrowed? Old Mjolen helped him, but she word for word says she’s amazed by his theories and knowledge.

People can come up with excuses as much as they want, but c’mon, 90% of the dislike boils down to toxic masculinity

Well... isn't that quite presumptuous? It's exactly the kind of paranoid assumption without any proof that I thought this thread has managed to move past. I'm only commenting because this kind of thinking is really wrong for the fandom.

You love Fenn, great. Others don't, also great. But let's not go around claiming that 90% of the dislike has to do with misogyny or homophobia or toxic masculinity or whatever else, people. For claiming something so audacious, you'd have to have some proof... and yet there is none. You can't make a conclusion like that based on no evidence, and you certainly can't make that conclusion based on mind-reading and just presuming what people think when they dislike him. Also, it's fine to disagree, but let's not trivialize other people's dislike as 'an excuse' that hides some bigotry or whatnot. Fenn is 100%, legit dislikeable, like any character. Or do you think that he should be above reproach, and everyone should love him, or else be branded a misogynist?

Regarding your list of things he did for example. He succeeded at 2 things, yes; but he attempted to do far more things and failed at far more of them. He tried to investigate, got captured; tried to figure out clues, needed us to solve it for him instead; tried to intercept the vamp in the cave, got injured; tried to investigate Blackreach, got captured; tried to break the Harrowstorm at the end, but couldn't and needed us to just kill Svargrim. He fails more often than he succeeds, and he needs help far more often than any of the other side characters. And one of the two things he did well, was rendered completely irrelevant because the story concluded with a pointless bossfight that ended all the magic, and didn't require any special magical invention to solve.

He was written this way. He's a character, a sum of words and pixels. I suspect that a lot of overly confrontational 'defenders' of Fenn may forget this fact, and act as if he's a legit person in need of defending. He isn't. The writers wrote him in a certain way, with a certain success/failure ratio, with a certain degree of dependence/independence, for a reason. Maybe it was to subvert a vampire trope, or to make us feel more useful in comparison, or to make Svana and Lyris look good. But he's just a character and just as there are valid reasons for loving him, there are equally valid reasons to dislike him.

Anyhow, more and more House Guests are added in the patches, so we might see Fenn as a House Guest eventually! And that's fine too; I just wanted to address this confrontational narrative because it reminds me of people being all up in arms, antagonizing each other over shipping/not shipping liking/not liking characters, and it's such a toxic fandom atmosphere lol. Let's like ESO chars, but let's let others dislike them too without jumping for the pitchforks and pulling out accusations of bigotry out of nowhere.

Araneae6537

HorkerSlay3r wrote: »

Pls, add fennorian as a house guest option in the future

Oooh, looks like I need to do that Greymoor storyline after all and soon! I hadn’t yet in part because, well, I prefer elves of all varieties over Nords any day.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Contaminate wrote: »

Fen is honestly the best character in the game. As for people saying he did nothing, did you read any dialogue? Did you miss the part where he created the foundation of the theory behind the elixir to resist the Harrowstorms, or the elixir to cure the harrowed? Old Mjolen helped him, but she word for word says she’s amazed by his theories and knowledge.

People can come up with excuses as much as they want, but c’mon, 90% of the dislike boils down to toxic masculinity

Can't believe 4 people also agree with this. This is a toxic view and mindset. People can have perfectly legit reasons for disliking Fennorian which has nothing to do with any form of phobia or toxic masculinity.

As nicely put by @bluebird.

Nairinhe

Assuming toxic masculinity is toxic, but digging up a month old thread just to tell someone off is OK?

bluebird

Nairinhe wrote: »

Assuming toxic masculinity is toxic, but digging up a month old thread just to tell someone off is OK?

The thread has been active in August, then rezzed in September, then now in October. People are free to comment/follow-up on threads (if they don't check the forums regularly and immediately), 1 month is not 'digging up', it's not a necro.

I'd also like to think that my comment wasn't just 'telling people off', it was simply calling out an unnecessarily confrontational narrative that was projecting bigotry onto other fans for no reason, with no evidence. I think it's perfectly OK to suggest that it would be better for the fandom if we used evidence-based arguments to disagree with each other, rather than dismissing different opinions based on assumptions of bigotry, as it would be a healthier space to have discussions in good faith. No?

And your language is ambiguous, so perhaps we're having a disagreement based on differently interpreting the meaning: 'Assuming toxic masculinity is toxic':
--> meaning 'seeing toxic masculinity - evidenced by comments or whatnot - and concluding it's toxic' is one thing;
--> but 'assuming toxic masculinity - where there is no evidence of it - and calling that toxic' is another.
Surely you can also see the difference between comments like '90% of dislike is just an excuse and is actually based on t.m.' without bringing any evidence for such an antagonistic narrative, and my 'Really? Citation needed please, let's not presume things and demonize other people with no evidence'. The former is clearly more harmful and accusatory towards other members of the fandom; while the latter has nothing to do with endorsing toxic masculinity in any form either, it's just a call for more healthy discussion.

Kiyakotari

Elam Drals.

Nairinhe

bluebird wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

Assuming toxic masculinity is toxic, but digging up a month old thread just to tell someone off is OK?

The thread has been active in August, then rezzed in September, then now in October. People are free to comment/follow-up on threads (if they don't check the forums regularly and immediately), 1 month is not 'digging up', it's not a necro.

I'd also like to think that my comment wasn't just 'telling people off', it was simply calling out an unnecessarily confrontational narrative that was projecting bigotry onto other fans for no reason, with no evidence. I think it's perfectly OK to suggest that it would be better for the fandom if we used evidence-based arguments to disagree with each other, rather than dismissing different opinions based on assumptions of bigotry, as it would be a healthier space to have discussions in good faith. No?

And your language is ambiguous, so perhaps we're having a disagreement based on differently interpreting the meaning: 'Assuming toxic masculinity is toxic':
--> meaning 'seeing toxic masculinity - evidenced by comments or whatnot - and concluding it's toxic' is one thing;
--> but 'assuming toxic masculinity - where there is no evidence of it - and calling that toxic' is another.
Surely you can also see the difference between comments like '90% of dislike is just an excuse and is actually based on t.m.' without bringing any evidence for such an antagonistic narrative, and my 'Really? Citation needed please, let's not presume things and demonize other people with no evidence'. The former is clearly more harmful and accusatory towards other members of the fandom; while the latter has nothing to do with endorsing toxic masculinity in any form either, it's just a call for more healthy discussion.

I see both sides as antagonistic, but I find that "calling out" someone's generalizing and overstating as "projecting bigotry" is more confrontational. Never in the history of forum PVP had calling out contributed to a "healthy discussion".

bluebird

Nairinhe wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

Assuming toxic masculinity is toxic, but digging up a month old thread just to tell someone off is OK?

The thread has been active in August, then rezzed in September, then now in October. People are free to comment/follow-up on threads (if they don't check the forums regularly and immediately), 1 month is not 'digging up', it's not a necro.

I'd also like to think that my comment wasn't just 'telling people off', it was simply calling out an unnecessarily confrontational narrative that was projecting bigotry onto other fans for no reason, with no evidence. I think it's perfectly OK to suggest that it would be better for the fandom if we used evidence-based arguments to disagree with each other, rather than dismissing different opinions based on assumptions of bigotry, as it would be a healthier space to have discussions in good faith. No?

And your language is ambiguous, so perhaps we're having a disagreement based on differently interpreting the meaning: 'Assuming toxic masculinity is toxic':
--> meaning 'seeing toxic masculinity - evidenced by comments or whatnot - and concluding it's toxic' is one thing;
--> but 'assuming toxic masculinity - where there is no evidence of it - and calling that toxic' is another.
Surely you can also see the difference between comments like '90% of dislike is just an excuse and is actually based on t.m.' without bringing any evidence for such an antagonistic narrative, and my 'Really? Citation needed please, let's not presume things and demonize other people with no evidence'. The former is clearly more harmful and accusatory towards other members of the fandom; while the latter has nothing to do with endorsing toxic masculinity in any form either, it's just a call for more healthy discussion.

I see both sides as antagonistic, but I find that "calling out" someone's generalizing and overstating as "projecting bigotry" is more confrontational. Never in the history of forum PVP had calling out contributed to a "healthy discussion".

If you see both 'sides' as antagonistic, then it's rather strange that the previous comment got no attention or response; no correction, nor a more moderate suggestion that perhaps claims of 90% excuses and toxic masculinity are uncalled for; instead, the comment got 4 likes. So clearly, my addressing that 'overstating' was fully warranted, as nobody seemed to take a step back and evaluate that claim, and seemingly nobody was aware that the claims are accusatory towards other fans, and detrimental to discussion.

Calling out (i.e. calling attention to) harmful patterns in the fandom, making people aware that jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions and branding other fans as bigots based on projection is harmful, isn't nearly as antagonistic as you might think. If you seriously take issue with my comment because you think that demonizing people who disagree with you by accusing them of toxic masculinity, and me calling that behavior harmful for the fandom are equally toxic, that argument really has no leg to stand on. The very definition of calling out is 'draw critical attention to someone's unacceptable actions or behaviour.' I'm honestly baffled at what your issue with my comment is, when you seemed quite happy to accept the comment that flat out accused people of bigotry with no evidence.

The whole thing boils down to: 'Let's disagree, let's love and dislike characters; but don't go around accusing people of bigotry with no evidence whatsoever, as that kind of unsubstantiated antagonism is harmful for discussion.' What anybody's issue with that is, is beyond me, the same way I thought this thread was beyond this kind of thinking.