Fennorian as house guest pls

Ringing_Nirnroot

Pls, add fennorian as a house guest option in the future

Ringing_Nirnroot

xclassgaming wrote: »

Yes, just so i can torture the worst character in the Elder Scrolls franchise, over and over again.

*gasp* How dare you

rexagamemnon

Lets all the storyline characters be house guests

bluebird

rexagamemnon wrote: »

Lets all the storyline characters be house guests

*Mind explodes with all the possibilities with Naryu, Darien and Razumdar* Yes pls!


You can keep your emo vampire Altmer (sorry Fenn, you have tough competition)

Veinblood1965

Bah! I got so tired of him on the Western Skyrim quest!

Syldras

HorkerSlay3r wrote: »

xclassgaming wrote: »

Yes, just so i can torture the worst character in the Elder Scrolls franchise, over and over again.

*gasp* How dare you

I can totally understand that. He's cute when he screams.

xclassgaming

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

Bah! I got so tired of him on the Western Skyrim quest!

Agreed, one of the most annoying characters in an elder scrolls game ever, if he dies in the reach i'll rate darkheart a 10/10 no matter what happens even if darkstorm is somehow even more awful then elsweyr (but lets be honest, nothing can be as awful as elsweyr)

Syldras

What exactly is so bad about him? Is it a "All guys have to be tall, buff, martial and full of themselves"-thing?

There are much more annoying NPCs.

Nairinhe

Don't you dare hurt my Fennorian! Or you'll end up like Tzinghalis.

And thousand times yes for him as a guest!

Syldras wrote: »

What exactly is so bad about him? Is it a "All guys have to be tall, buff, martial and full of themselves"-thing?

There are much more annoying NPCs.

OP's just salty that they aren't as smart and handsome as Fenn

whitecrow

Only if I get to have Gwendis.

bluebird

Syldras wrote: »

What exactly is so bad about him? Is it a "All guys have to be tall, buff, martial and full of themselves"-thing?

Not at all. A lot of it comes down to personal preference and how much someone likes certain tropes/archetypes. I wouldn't mind if they added him as a Houseguest for you, I'm sure some people do like him!

Personally, most of the characters in Greymoor were terrible. So since you asked, I think a lot of us dislike the characters due to the poor quality writing in this Chapter. Fennorian for example, is a dorky shy vampire who loves alchemy... but ultimately had not much to contribute to the story.

• He is the 'hungry puppy' type character who has 'Oouuhh, I need my flask pls, sempai' moments in several parts of the story. He is captured and is hungry in the tutorial, he gets wounded and hungry in the cave, then gets captured and is hungry in the blood laboratory. He sips on his flask and goes back to being a goodboi, kinda like a puppy or a toddler with their CapriSun.
• Even Svana, who was a tavern drunk all her life suddenly turned more competent and proactive than this alleged agent of Ravenwatch (and Svana's character wasn't handled too well either, so this isn't praise for her, just a comparison). It got old that Fenn was always the doormat of the story.
• Also, his vampire-ness was entirely ... bloodless if you'll forgive the pun. He was de-fanged. ZOS possibly created the most boring 'vampire' of all, which is quite an achivement since most of their vampires are interesting. But Fenn might as well have been an Altmer Alchemist with barely any change to his character. Every time the topic of his vampire-ness would come up, we always had his flask on us so it was a non-issue. After he got captured and weakened, we could have had an interesting moral quandary as Fenn would have needed to feed to regain his strength... do we allow him to feed off us, or Lyris? Do we reject him and call him disgusting? Does he reject to feed off of random Nord NPC we find and chooses to suffer for longer? How would he have struggled against his morality and nature? But nope, we conveniently had his flask on us and he was once more a good little puppy.
• This is all made worse by the fact that his Alchemical knowledge was also irrelevant. We investigate all this intricate magical mumbo-jumbo plot in the first 2/3rds of the story, then none of that matters for the finale. The protective charm against Harrowstorms isn't used because we just stop the Storm instead of warding the people of Solitude. The netherroot and the stone husks didn't matter, because we just smash our way through the valves and husks with Lyris. Fennorian's knowledge didn't matter because he couldn't do anything against Rada or the Harrowstorm, and we just had to kill Svargrim to make all the bad juju go away. So there was no satisfying payoff for the finale of the all the built-up plotlines.

Don't want to turn this into a story/lore thread, as there are other threads discussing the writing of Greymoor, just thought I'd share my perspective on why Fenn was a disappointment to many, since you asked. But to each their own, and as I said, I don't want to stand in the way of getting him as a Houseguest

Syldras

@bluebird I'm not even sure if I would want him as a house guest (not sure about the whole system actually, because I think if every guest has only a few lines of dialogue, it will get uninteresting soon).

The whole thing I am wondering about is that intense hating. Not finding him well-written or too cliché is one thing. But I noticed that, whenever one person wrote somewhere on the forum that they really like Fennorian, there were always people appearing who not only disagreed (which is fine), but there was often something like "I hate him", "I wanna torture him", "I hope he dies". I find that... interesting. Especially if combined with the fact that there were also several comments along the lines of "Look how he behaves! He must be gay!". Made me wonder.

Ringing_Nirnroot

Syldras wrote: »

@bluebird I'm not even sure if I would want him as a house guest (not sure about the whole system actually, because I think if every guest has only a few lines of dialogue, it will get uninteresting soon).

The whole thing I am wondering about is that intense hating. Not finding him well-written or too cliché is one thing. But I noticed that, whenever one person wrote somewhere on the forum that they really like Fennorian, there were always people appearing who not only disagreed (which is fine), but there was often something like "I hate him", "I wanna torture him", "I hope he dies". I find that... interesting. Especially if combined with the fact that there were also several comments along the lines of "Look how he behaves! He must be gay!". Made me wonder.

Fennorian is hot

bluebird

Syldras wrote: »

The whole thing I am wondering about is that intense hating. Not finding him well-written or too cliché is one thing. But I noticed that, whenever one person wrote somewhere on the forum that they really like Fennorian, there were always people appearing who not only disagreed (which is fine), but there was often something like "I hate him", "I wanna torture him", "I hope he dies". I find that... interesting. Especially if combined with the fact that there were also several comments along the lines of "Look how he behaves! He must be gay!". Made me wonder.

Where do you get that from? Like, at all? There's a separate 'Fennorian appreciation thread' on the forums, and there was no negativity like the one you describe on either of the threads. Nobody brought up his sexuality so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from. People on the other thread complained about his disgusting appearance, and the lazy writing. Here, people complained about how annoying he is, how tired they were of him in Greymoor, and how they only liked him in the quest where he gets tortured lol. Those are simply expressions of hate that are perfectly within the scope of what someone might want to do to an annoying character.

So unless I missed several comments, it sounds like you're reading too much into it. He's a bit of a wimpy puppy, but nobody brought up whether he's gay or not as far as I could see on the 2 Fennorian threads I have read - in fact most comments were gushing about how hot he is. (Which is a personal preference, although I think Leythen blows Fenn out of the water when it comes to attractive High Elf characters )

I'm not even sure if I would want him as a house guest (not sure about the whole system actually, because I think if every guest has only a few lines of dialogue, it will get uninteresting soon).

RE: Houseguests though, there will be 2 types of Houseguests:
- regular basic ones (like the barmaid) who have only few voicelines, and are mostly there to look good and move around using character pathing
- talkative fleshed-out ones (like Birdo-dar) who have many voicelines, and have backstories and a fleshed-out personality with quirky tales about themselves. You can see some examples of Biro-dar here.

https://i.ibb.co/D7NzB3f/Birodar.png

So I'd imagine that if they ever add Story NPCs as Houseguests (and it was datamined that Sereyne the drunk Alfiq from Elsweyr may become a houseguest, so they may add other story NPCs too), they will make them the 2nd, talkative type, since they already have great voicelines recorded for them.

Syldras

I could be wrong (it's just a theory), but my impression was that it could be a "fragile masculinity" thing. Some guys can't stand that a "feminine" man (by gender roles; thoughtful, emotional, showing weakness, slender and unmuscular in appearance) gets a lot of attention from women. I've also seen that in real life often enough, when ape-brained idiots harass boys or men whom they find "unmanly", or even couples, asking the woman why she dates a (insert unfriendly word for gay men here) and not a "real man". As I said, I could be wrong, but that strong emotional reaction on women liking Fennorian (Who is just an NPC in a game, so, who cares of some people love him?! It wouldn't bother me) is quite remarkable...

Syldras

bluebird wrote: »

Nobody brought up his sexuality so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from.

There were definitively a few of these comments. Not in the 2 threads you mentioned, but in another one. Unfortunately, I can't remember exactly where it was. I might have a look later (hope I can find them, since it's possible they have been deleted meanwhile due to their content).

bluebird wrote: »

Those are simply expressions of hate that are perfectly within the scope of what someone might want to do to an annoying character.

Maybe I'm not emotional enough to understand, but if someone brings up how much they love Raz or Darien - so what?! I don't like them much, but why should I fantasize about torturing or killing them? It seems completely off to me.

bluebird wrote: »

So I'd imagine that if they ever add Story NPCs as Houseguests (and it was datamined that Sereyne the drunk Alfiq from Elsweyr may become a houseguest, so they may add other story NPCs too), they will make them the 2nd, talkative type, since they already have great voicelines recorded for them.

Thanks for the information!

bluebird

Syldras wrote: »

I could be wrong (it's just a theory), but my impression was that it could be a "fragile masculinity" thing. Some guys can't stand that a "feminine" man (by gender roles; thoughtful, emotional, showing weakness, slender and unmuscular in appearance) gets a lot of attention from women. I've also seen that in real life often enough, when ape-brained idiots harass boys or men whom they find "unmanly", or even couples, asking the woman why she dates a (insert unfriendly word for gay men here) and not a "real man". As I said, I could be wrong, but that strong emotional reaction on women liking Fennorian (Who is just an NPC in a game, so, who cares of some people love him?! It wouldn't bother me) is quite remarkable...

See this is the part where I think you're reading too much into this. Your concerns might be valid in the real world social issues, but this is a game. It's very frequent to hear about:

"I love XYZ character in this TVshow/game/comic, I wish we would see more of them/get them as a furnishing/etc"
"Ugh, I hate XYZ, I hope they die in a fire, their character is SO bad"

So, I don't think there was nearly as much masculinity-targeted hate towards Fennorian, and even if there were some comments, they clearly weren't common since I didn't come across a single one in two of his threads. Some people didn't vibe with him, and had little to no sympathy for his character. Others love him and gush about how hot he is and link to R-rated fanfiction involving him. Both are valid.

Ultimately, on a Forum, people are bound to express things they like, and others will express their dislike. There's plenty of suggestion / class revamp / housing system addition / etc threads that go 'I'd like THIS XYZ' and people immediately posting why they DON'T want XYZ and why they think it would be a terrible idea.

Syldras

bluebird wrote: »

Ultimately, on a Forum, people are bound to express things they like, and others will express their dislike. There's plenty of suggestion / class revamp / housing system addition / etc threads that go 'I'd like THIS XYZ' and people immediately posting why they DON'T want XYZ and why they think it would be a terrible idea.

You might be right. I'm often astonished how emotional some people get over such things. That's what confuses me, I guess. I'm always thinking: "What. is. the. problem? It's just a game". So I assume there must be some underlying issue... otherwise they wouldn't be so emotional about it, right? But, yes, they're sometimes even fighting over costume designs like irascible children... So there probably isn't more to it.

AmaltheaWinter

bluebird wrote: »

rexagamemnon wrote: »

Lets all the storyline characters be house guests

*Mind explodes with all the possibilities with Naryu, Darien and Razumdar* Yes pls!


You can keep your emo vampire Altmer (sorry Fenn, you have tough competition)

As a min height female Altmer vampire, he's actually an emo Bosmer vampire.

bluebird

AmaltheaWinter wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

rexagamemnon wrote: »

Lets all the storyline characters be house guests

*Mind explodes with all the possibilities with Naryu, Darien and Razumdar* Yes pls!


You can keep your emo vampire Altmer (sorry Fenn, you have tough competition)

As a min height female Altmer vampire, he's actually an emo Bosmer vampire.

Lol. Poor Fenn, getting called a Bosmer now! He's just a poor little malnourished Altmer puppy.

'Anyway, I was at Castle Ravenwatch, waiting to deliver a message to Count Verandis. He wasn’t in residence, but his wards expected him shortly and happily let me wait. The storm that battered the castle throughout the day only intensified as darkness fell. The wards, Adusa-daro the Khajiit, and Gwendis the Wood Elf, were enjoying a late supper with their blood-servant, Kalin. We were having a nice enough talk, but it was all I could do not to leap up and make them take their fangs out of that poor man. He offered his blood willingly, I had to keep telling myself. And they weren’t draining him dry. Finally, the doors to the great hall flew wide, revealing Count Verandis in the open entryway.

The count stood tall and regal, lightning flashing behind him as thunder boomed. He wasn’t alone. Standing beside him, dripping wet and looking like a lost puppy, was a skinny High Elf with a dazed expression.' - Meet the Character, Fennorian

Syldras

bluebird wrote: »

Standing beside him, dripping wet and looking like a lost puppy, was a skinny High Elf with a dazed expression.

I like him, but...

bluebird

Syldras wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

Standing beside him, dripping wet and looking like a lost puppy, was a skinny High Elf with a dazed expression.

I like him, but...

Lol Well it also shows that the writers really were going for that 'wimpy hungry puppy' vibe deliberately... so in that case, they really did succeed. So no wonder many find him an emo deadweight on the story. Even his official character introduction went out of its way to make him seem as sad and pathetic as possible. Poor Fenn?

Syldras

@bluebird He is a stereotype (just like Verandis is a different one). You can, of course, argue if the use of clichés is a legit method in fiction, or actually bad writing. The opinions about that vary (personally, I'm not yet completely clear of my stance on it either). Some claim that stereotyping would make it easier for readers/viewers/players to understand what "type" of person they encounter. There are hundreds, thousands of well-known tropes (is it the right word? I'm sorry, I'm not a native English speaker, so I hope what I write makes sense), and somehow enough people may seem to appreciate them, otherwise they wouldn't be used repeatedly over decades? Think of that "mad scientist" thing, always the same story since Frankenstein, and now we'll get Arkasis The Mad Alchemist in Stonethorn

That said, I think there are mainly 2 types of people who like Fennorian: Those who like more "feminine" guys (which is a huge thing not only with Emos, but also with Goths and their different precursor subcultures like New Romantics, Wavers and all those), and those whose protective instinct is triggered Sadly, that latter works for me ("Aww... That poor wimp. I have to look after him"). Still, I actually would even prefer it if he was presented in a... a bit more multi-faceted way. Would be nice to see that in the last story DLC this year. I'm not sure though if it will really happen.

Generally, I actually don't even like that "good vampire" stereotype that much. Before Greymoor was released I had hoped there was a way for vampire characters to decide for a "good" or an "evil" path instead of always just being the good guy/gal.

bluebird

Syldras wrote: »

That said, I think there are mainly 2 types of people who like Fennorian: Those who like more "feminine" guys (which is a huge thing not only with Emos, but also with Goths and their different precursor subcultures like New Romantics, Wavers and all those), and those whose protective instinct is triggered Sadly, that latter works for me ("Aww... That poor wimp. I have to look after him"). Still, I actually would even prefer it if he was presented in a... a bit more multi-faceted way. Would be nice to see that in the last story DLC this year. I'm not sure though if it will really happen.

Of course, I can see why some people like him. I was simply making the case that it's natural that some people won't, and it doesn't have to be due to some deep-seated bias or bigoted hate. Since his character was deliberately designed to be wimpy and sad puppy-like (the writers directly reference him as such in his introduction), then naturally a lot of people will be fed up with his incompetence and wimpiness. Because that's how the character is designed, to elicit a certain reaction from people - compassion, pity, protective instinct, derision, etc. If people find a villain evil, it was well-written. If people find a pathetic character pathetic, it also reached its goal.

This might risk going into a real-life topic, but here it goes: I don't think people dislike Fenn because they think he's gay, and I also don't think he's particularly feminine at all. He's giving off strong submissive vibes (helpless, doormat, needs to be spoon-fed by Lyris and us his caretakers) but what exactly is feminine about that if I may ask? Fenn has more of a loner loser nerd vibe, the scrawny kid from high school that always has his nose buried in a book until his glasses are broken by bullies vibe. I don't think sexuality or gender factors into it at all.

Edit: Also, I don't mean to suggest that Fenn is not a valid character, or that wimpy puppies can't be characters in a story. It just means that perhaps it's understandable if a lot of people dislike him. So it doesn't have to be some 'underlying issue' that makes people 'astonihsingly emotional' about a character, when the characters are designed with specific traits to elicit a reaction from players.

TheImperfect

I feel like I played a different game. I didn't see Fennorian as feminine or helpless or puppy-like at all. He seemed independent and careful about restraining himself and his urges.

Syldras

bluebird wrote: »

Also, I don't mean to suggest that Fenn is not a valid character, or that wimpy puppies can't be characters in a story. It just means that perhaps it's understandable if a lot of people dislike him.

It's totally okay for me. You've probably seen the "Which NPC do you dislike most?" topic in the main forum. Opinions varied a lot. There were even people who dislike Rigurt

mrsrobot wrote: »

I feel like I played a different game. I didn't see Fennorian as feminine or helpless or puppy-like at all. He seemed independent and careful about restraining himself and his urges.

bluebird wrote: »

He's giving off strong submissive vibes (helpless, doormat, needs to be spoon-fed by Lyris and us his caretakers) but what exactly is feminine about that if I may ask?

I'm wondering if it may be a cultural thing? I mean, what is perceived as masculine or feminine in different countries or even regions, still seems to differ a lot. When I was in Italy, I saw many men who wore rather colorful clothing, "even" pink or lilac. Here, most men wouldn't, because of "Gay!!!". I have experienced it several times that strangers approached me or a friend with such stupid remarks such as "You wear jewelry? You have long hair? You gay or what?!" (Being called gay or feminine isn't a problem for me though, as I don't see anything negative in it, what annoys me is those peoples' narrowmindedness).

So, from the stereotypes I am used to (which doesn't mean I find them legit, actually I really hate them...), what do I perceive as feminine about Fennorian? From his looks, he's skinny, not very muscular, and somehow he seems to be a bit short for an Altmer, I think? Generally, he's somehow soft. He's showing weakness, he needs help and admits it (many men here would never ask anyone for help, not even for directions when they become lost in town, because they consider it "unmanly", and "unmanly" is considered "behaves like a woman" here), he seems rather thoughtful, some people would even consider it "unmanly" that he primarily uses his mind and not his body. And yes, even wimpy behavior and submissiveness is considered "a typical women's thing" here. Gender roles really are weird.

Nairinhe

mrsrobot wrote: »

I feel like I played a different game. I didn't see Fennorian as feminine or helpless or puppy-like at all. He seemed independent and careful about restraining himself and his urges.

Thisssss ^
Although compared to our other adventuring companions throughout the game, he seems to be... softer? gentler? I struggle to find the right word here.

Also 1: I'd gladly live without him having any moral struggles regarding feeding. That's so cliché and would drive season's edginess over the top.
Also 2: Fenn seems to be one of the most discussed characters. Not sure if anyone else got that much attention and opinions on forums, but I may be biased

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

I actually can't fathom some of these comments...Like Fennorian or don't, but these comments about hating him, wanting to kill him, and torturing him are more than a little disturbing. Personally I adore him and believe he was the only tolerable part of Greymoor, and would be delighted to have him as a pathable guest.

Wolf_Eye

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

I actually can't fathom some of these comments...Like Fennorian or don't, but these comments about hating him, wanting to kill him, and torturing him are more than a little disturbing. Personally I adore him and believe he was the only tolerable part of Greymoor, and would be delighted to have him as a pathable guest.

I know right? You don't often see people professing their love in TORTURING a character often, unless it happens to be a villain character....I'm creeped out by such people...

Wolf_Eye

I like Fennorian.. He feels..."safe".

He's not one of those insufferable "macho men types" who I've dealt with in the real world, purposely push your boundaries, as if they get some sort of perverse pleasure out of tormenting and dominating women.

He's nice. He's relatable. He's more on an equal level with me, and not trying to act above me. It's hard not to like a guy who is of a more equal footing and not your "superior". And it's comforting too. It's like a breath of fresh air.

Weakness and "wimpiness" is not a sin. For many people born with chronic health conditions, what is perceived as "weakness" is their normal. And I hate anyone who calls me "worthless" just because I have a chronic health condition. I relate to Fennorian in such a manner, and I am creeped out by people who claim that he deserves to be tortured JUST because he's "weak".

What's to stop those same people from wanting to torture ME for the same reason?

bluebird

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I like Fennorian.. He feels..."safe".

He's not one of those insufferable "macho men types" who I've dealt with in the real world, purposely push your boundaries, as if they get some sort of perverse pleasure out of tormenting and dominating women.

He's nice. He's relatable. He's more on an equal level with me, and not trying to act above me. It's hard not to like a guy who is of a more equal footing and not your "superior". And it's comforting too. It's like a breath of fresh air.

Weakness and "wimpiness" is not a sin. For many people born with chronic health conditions, what is perceived as "weakness" is their normal. And I hate anyone who calls me "worthless" just because I have a chronic health condition. I relate to Fennorian in such a manner, and I am creeped out by people who claim that he deserves to be tortured JUST because he's "weak".

What's to stop those same people from wanting to torture ME for the same reason?

Well, literally nobody claimed that people deserve being tortured for being weak. There was one (now deleted) comment that called him the 'worst character' who wanted to torture him, another comment who said he's 'cute when he screams', and a comment that just called him annoying. The first two are pretty creepy, to be sure, but nobody was bashing weakness. And nobody mentioned 'weakness' being a part of their dislike at all.

Also, nobody called 'weak' people or characters 'worthless'. I mentioned that his character was totally pointless in Greymoor - not because he was weak; but because all his alchemical knowledge, all that potion-brewing, all that magical investigation and witch-pike and netherroot mumbo-jumbo was completely irrelevant in the end. There was no payoff to any of that buildup, and instead those story threads were abandoned in favour of 'just kill the monster and all the bad juju goes away'.

Also, I once again feel like there's a lot of irl personal baggage being projected onto Fennorian. People are free to like him and consider him a good male role model, whatever, more power to you, but there is actually quite a spectrum of characters and people - so there is more to characters and people than this alleged dichotomy of being either a character who gets captured/injured 3 times in the prologue and chapter OR someone who takes 'perverse pleasure out of tormenting and dominating women'. Like... those aren't the only two options y'know?

I really think there is far more 'defending Fennorian against things nobody ever said' and projecting real life problems into the game, than there is any sort of disproportionate bashing of Fennorian. At least based on the threads I've seen.