[REDESIGN] Thrassian Stranglers 6.1.1 UPDATE

GrumpyKlam
GrumpyKlam
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[6.1.1 Update]
Patch Notes
  • 10 minutes duration
  • Future devs plan: maximum stack count from 20 to 50 (up to 2000 dmg) or 40 dmg per stack
  • up to 50 % reduction in healing and shield efficacy
  • up to 50 % increased damage taken
  • Keep stacks on death [EDIT: THIS SEEMS TO BE A BUG]

Developer comments:
  • people don't wanna dump the stacks
  • on death, people try to regain stacks
  • Too many players are using it in trials (unhealthy balance between magicka and stamina)
  • They don't want all damage dealer to wear Thrassian stranglers

Once again, it feels like the developers have trouble balancing kiss curse with opposite ideas. The duration might be better, but I feel like kiss curse should be based on how much one player wants to push the risk/reward instead of playing a timer.

Also, if the addition of the timer is there to make players loose their stacks, why do you allow people to keep their stacks [EDIT: THIS SEEMS TO BE A BUG] when they die? You literally remove the risk component of thrassian stranglers! Death is how people "dump" their stacks.

As far as the trial comment goes, I feel like it is not as problematic as they think with the rework to make it give the same buff to stam damage dealer. Is it BiS? Yes. Should all dps wear it in trials? Most likely yes if you are in an end game group. Is that problematic? No. If you take a look at ESOLogs, almost everyone is running the same sets and the same skills. It doesn't seem to bother anyone, why should wearing thrassian be different? It is a "new meta" it would be better to balance around that and accept the fact that people will want to wear it in trials.

To summarize my points:
  • Loosing stack on timer = Bad risk / reward | Loosing stacks on death = Good risk / reward
  • Stacks from 20 to 50 (40 dmg per stack) good, slow linear powercreep with slow linear penalty (1 % per stack)
  • Keeping stacks on death: [EDIT: SUPPOSED TO BE A BUG] Hopefully this is a bug and not intended otherwise I have multiple questions
  • Having a new meta (with the stamina dmg change) is not a problem, something is always going to be BiS.

Edited by GrumpyKlam on July 20, 2020 5:17PM
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  • Tanis-Stormbinder
    Tanis-Stormbinder
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    All they had to do was:
    Reduced the Spell Damage granted per stack to 92, down from 150
    This set now also grants Weapon Damage
    Done, but no they had to make this useless for all but solo builds.
  • GrumpyKlam
    GrumpyKlam
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    All they had to do was:
    Reduced the Spell Damage granted per stack to 92, down from 150
    This set now also grants Weapon Damage
    Done, but no they had to make this useless for all but solo builds.

    92x20 = 1840

    This is still overperforming compared to 5 piece sets like Siroria (520) which also has a drawback, movement.

    But I agree, having you loose the stacks make this almost worthless.
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  • GrumpyKlam
    GrumpyKlam
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    Any comments / other ideas to rework the gloves?
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  • IonicKai
    IonicKai
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    I said this in a another thread but honestly the condition for stacks should be the following:

    Stacks are permanent unless you crouch (like live) but only granted on killing blow

    OR

    Stacks are granted when an enemy dies (like VO/FG) and have a timer (not sure 30 seconds is right but that's something to test).

    The killing blow with timer is nonsense and makes this set DOA.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    IonicKai wrote: »
    I said this in a another thread but honestly the condition for stacks should be the following:

    Stacks are permanent unless you crouch (like live) but only granted on killing blow

    OR

    Stacks are granted when an enemy dies (like VO/FG) and have a timer (not sure 30 seconds is right but that's something to test).

    The killing blow with timer is nonsense and makes this set DOA.

    Agree completely. These are the 2 possible solutions.

    As for the downsides, I do think that the reduction from 2% damage taken and healing debuff to 1% was appropriate if the weapon/spell damage it provides remains 40% lower than before (which it should, 150 stacking up to 3000 was too much). At 20 stacks the survivability was getting pretty difficult, and if this were any worse (like a hypothetical increase to 3% damage taken and healing reduction) I don’t believe the set would be usable in a lot of content.

    To put in another way, the risk-reward system needs a certain level of balance. The original Thrassian Stranglers gave approximately 33% damage increase at max stacks, and this was balanced by the 29% survivability hit (in regard to what is a one-shot, 1/1.4 = 0.71, ignoring the healing debuff for simplicity). If one could maintain max stacks with the new 92 per stack version it would result in 18% damage increase and the new survivability hit would be 17% (1/1.2 = 0.83). Notice that in both these cases the benefit is slightly more than the detriment, which is absolutely how it should be.

    Now we could debate further if 18% damage increase is the appropriate number, it may still be a little high (assuming stack timer is removed and 20 stacks can be maintained). Maybe something like 15% damage (80 per stack) or even 12% damage (70 per stack) would be more balanced. However I would expect the survivability negatives to also decrease so that they never outweigh the damage increase. And I do realize that in ESO, damage is valued much more than survivability, but I still don’t like the idea of an item that causes you to deal 10% more damage while taking 40% more damage. That would be backward design IMO.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on July 14, 2020 7:52PM
  • deLioncourt
    deLioncourt
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    Shouldve just done what they did relequen and reduced the max stacks by 5 or so. 15 maximum stacks instead of 20. 3/4ths the original dmg and debuff instead of dropping the dmg down.

    Let the damage buff stay the same of 150. Dmg is 2250 instead of 3k. Decent nerf, still a bit OP, but not AS OP..and most people, I think, would be happy.
  • Red_Feather
    Red_Feather
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    No timer on the stacks.

    What if max stacks starts draining your health like you are cursed with so much power you can't handle it.

    Then at least you can stealth to avoid death.
  • seerevaloc
    seerevaloc
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    40% penalty for 1000 spell dmg is way too much.
    I join the other suggestions.
  • GrumpyKlam
    GrumpyKlam
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    • So we pretty much all agree that the timer is poor design.
    • The bonus granted might still be too powerful is we keep the stacks
      • Penalty should be revised to match the bonus granted
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  • Lerozain
    Lerozain
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    All they had to do was:
    Reduced the Spell Damage granted per stack to 92, down from 150
    This set now also grants Weapon Damage
    Done, but no they had to make this useless for all but solo builds.

    100% exactly this. A reduction of spell damage per stack and addition of weapon damage is literally all that was needed.
  • Kurat
    Kurat
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    It seems that this set was only created to help sell Greymoor. Now that most people have already bought it they kill Stranglers.
  • LuxLunae
    LuxLunae
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    All they had to do was:
    Reduced the Spell Damage granted per stack to 92, down from 150
    This set now also grants Weapon Damage
    Done, but no they had to make this useless for all but solo builds.

    30 seconds is a good amount of time for ya...
  • Lerozain
    Lerozain
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    Kurat wrote: »
    It seems that this set was only created to help sell Greymoor. Now that most people have already bought it they kill Stranglers.

    That's what it looks like to me and it's maddening. There was no problem at all with how the stacks were acquired OR that they were persistent (conditionally), the problem is that they were overtuned for pvp, so slash the damage a bit and be done with it.

    Imagine trying to run a trial and competing with 7-8 other people for killing blows to get a stack, AND having them expire after 30 sec. It might take 30-40 seconds to get a stack to begin with, or longer, which would make stacks far too difficult to maintain, which would make Thrassian practically pointless to wear.
  • Tanis-Stormbinder
    Tanis-Stormbinder
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    LuxLunae wrote: »
    All they had to do was:
    Reduced the Spell Damage granted per stack to 92, down from 150
    This set now also grants Weapon Damage
    Done, but no they had to make this useless for all but solo builds.

    30 seconds is a good amount of time for ya...

    Not!
  • ccfeeling
    ccfeeling
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    Can someone post the new Thrassian Stranglers photo here please ?
    I don't understand the stam part meaning , thank you !
  • WeerW3ir
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    I have a better idea. 100 dmg per stack. 20 stack still. (leave stacks alone zos), 2% more v. Stays. But you cannot crit while wearing it Just like with the rings.
  • mairwen85
    mairwen85
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    Max 10 stacks @ 60 WD/SD per damage tick dealt within a 10 second window. Sustained damage keeps the buff, drops a stack per second no damage dealt. Penalty = 2% increased damage received per stack, 2% less healing received per stack, 2% less effective shield per stack, 2% increased ability cost per stack.

    Fixed.
    Edited by mairwen85 on July 17, 2020 12:02PM
  • Koubo
    Koubo
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    Lerozain wrote: »
    All they had to do was:
    Reduced the Spell Damage granted per stack to 92, down from 150
    This set now also grants Weapon Damage
    Done, but no they had to make this useless for all but solo builds.

    100% exactly this. A reduction of spell damage per stack and addition of weapon damage is literally all that was needed.

    the added effect that the type of armor is based on the most armor you use is quite good too (suggestion of the OP) because StamDD dosent use a LA. They use 6/1 or 7 medium armor.
  • Ivan04
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    Stranglers didn't make any sense whatsoever, but now they're trash. Perhaps amping the bonus to 1 min could be a feasible solution.
  • Tanis-Stormbinder
    Tanis-Stormbinder
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    If this is what they intend to do with all Mystic items just delete them and stick to furnishings. I can find a better use for my skill points then a useless Antiquitie system.
    Edited by Tanis-Stormbinder on July 17, 2020 2:25PM
  • GrumpyKlam
    GrumpyKlam
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    Updated the first post for 6.1.1
    Edited by GrumpyKlam on July 20, 2020 4:24PM
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  • kathandira
    kathandira
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    Solution in Trials.

    If the stacks persist through Death, and the first boss you fight has adds which spawn. You basically just need to allow each DPS to kill adds until everyone has their stacks built up. Then proceed with the Trial.
    PS4-NA. Breton Templar Healer, Bosmer Stamplar, Breton Magplar, Orsimer StamDK, Dunmer MagDK, Khajiit StamNB, Dunmer MagNB, Argonian Warden Tank, Altmer Magsorc
  • GrumpyKlam
    GrumpyKlam
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    kathandira wrote: »
    Solution in Trials.

    If the stacks persist through Death, and the first boss you fight has adds which spawn. You basically just need to allow each DPS to kill adds until everyone has their stacks built up. Then proceed with the Trial.

    After speaking with some people and re-reading the notes, it seems to be a bug.
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  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
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    The way I read today's patch notes, they will be removed upon death by the time the update goes live.
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  • Tanis-Stormbinder
    Tanis-Stormbinder
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    Seems to me the timer is here to stay. Can't finish a pledge or trial in ten minutes.
  • Koubo
    Koubo
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    Seems to me the timer is here to stay. Can't finish a pledge or trial in ten minutes.

    you can finish a dung in 10 min and if the timer is refreshed then it's not a problem (or i misunderstood it which might happen as english is not my first language)
  • mairwen85
    mairwen85
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    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Max 10 stacks @ 60 WD/SD per damage tick dealt within a 10 second window. Sustained damage keeps the buff, drops a stack per second no damage dealt. Penalty = 2% increased damage received per stack, 2% less healing received per stack, 2% less effective shield per stack, 2% increased ability cost per stack.

    As I said above, but instead remove the window and the cap on stack limit and set % values to 1 per stack, allow stacks to keep climbing so that total damage received, ability cost, etc could be several hundred %. I feel that meets their newly defined design goal.
    Edited by mairwen85 on July 21, 2020 4:45PM
  • thadjarvis
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    There are potential misconceptions in the developer comment:
    (humbly note that my experience is too limited and narrow)

    "...we noticed the overall goal of people using the set was to sit at max stacks for as long as possible, and never really think about dumping them..."

    That is simply not true for at least most I know.

    There's thought, planning, and testing that goes into how many stacks are appropriate for different encounters and goals. Yes the first time you'll try max stacks. If it's too much try 10 and so on. This figuring out what works process in a way has reinvigorated some old content.
    The slower build up of the modified PTS versions makes it harder to modulate the set. That player agency to mod the set is one of it's greatest aspects as well.

    "even if their character did die, they'd rather try again than not try at all"
    Changing it so stacks don't drop when dying would facilitate rather than discourage that

    "we still don't want this set being ran by 8+ damage dealers"
    That's pretty hard to do. It's basically a monster set replacement. Every patch has an optimal monster helm for each encounter which is usually the same for every class. So, as basically a monster set it will likely be worn most of the time or never in trials. However, players by self-regulation of their own skill level do take it off while others keep it on. There is probably more variety now than 100% Maarseolok/Selene or 100% MoI


    Not related to a dev comment but the set has made Support roles much more useful and desired in dungeon/arenas which has been a sticky point for some on these forums.
    Edited by thadjarvis on July 21, 2020 5:42PM
  • Welkynar
    Welkynar
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    I really hope the devs figure this out. I’m going to enjoy it as much as I can outside of vet content but I feel like I won’t use it again in the next patch. It’s sad because I spent a lot of time doing the antiquarian stuff for it. :(
  • Zanderscotxub17_ESO
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    Max 10 stacks @ 60 WD/SD per damage tick dealt within a 10 second window. Sustained damage keeps the buff, drops a stack per second no damage dealt. Penalty = 2% increased damage received per stack, 2% less healing received per stack, 2% less effective shield per stack, 2% increased ability cost per stack.

    As I said above, but instead remove the window and the cap on stack limit and set % values to 1 per stack, allow stacks to keep climbing so that total damage received, ability cost, etc could be several hundred %. I feel that meets their newly defined design goal.


    Thrassian strangler stacks should look like this if their really trying to accomplish there goals the dev posted in the notes.

    Gain one stack on killing blow, timer starts unable to gain another stack for 60sec
    Each stack gives 1000 spell and weapon damage and 20% increase in damage taken,20% reduced healing,20% reduce shields.
    After timer expires player is allowed to gain 2nd stack up to 5 stacks. Resets with crouching

    Strangler level
    (Loose)1000 spell and weapon damage and 20% increase in damage taken,20% reduced healing,20% reduce shields.
    (Snug) 2000 spell and weapon damage and 40% increase in damage taken,40% reduced healing,40% reduce shields.
    (Just right) 3000 spell and weapon damage and 60% increase in damage taken,60% reduced healing,60% reduce shields.
    (Tight) 4000 spell and weapon damage and 80% increase in damage taken,80% reduced healing,80% reduce shields. Movment speed reduced 20%
    (Strangled)5000 spell and weapon damage and 100% increase in damage taken,100% reduced healing,100% reduce shields. Movement speed reduced 40%
    (Hands glow red at 5th stack)

    What this will create is exactly the outcome they are looking for not a band aid but a fix. People in groups would not want to get a killing blow on the chance they progress a Strangler level. Even if someone plays the middle ground there resetting ever 3-4 mins. You might walk in to a boss with one stack or 2 or 3 each trial or dungeon will play a little different because your stacks cant really be controlled. The reduced movement was put in for pvp on stages 4 and 5. Weapon and spell damage can be reduced for balance but concept wise the mechanic would fix Thrassian strangler.

    I think it was good intention the dev's left there concept and what they are trying to accomplish. I just don't believe there on the right path to fix their problem and are going to upset allot of returning players. Simple nerf to spell damage would have been fine but some of the things there trying will not solve anything.
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