Any point to werewolf anymore? Confirmed now.

Ryuvain

Heres the note. Notice how he specifically implies that his guards are NOT werewolves.

Tommy_The_Gun

As long as it stays as a one Dungeon Exclusive mechanic - I am fine with that.

But if in 1 - 2 years from now it will be a "overland" potion - then yes, WW will be pointless.

Ryuvain

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As long as it stays as a one Dungeon Exclusive mechanic - I am fine with that.

But if in 1 - 2 years from now it will be a "overland" potion - then yes, WW will be pointless.

At least someone saw what I was talking about. I've been advocating for adding behemoth but who knows.

Ryuvain

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/58533

Just wow... this says so much about the chapter. So I was right in that they're not werewolves at all.

Werewolves feel so generic now.

Eporem

I wonder what Hircine feels of this...

Ryuvain

Eporem wrote: »

I wonder what Hircine feels of this...

I'd imagine he would be pissed about it. He's pretty chill but one upping him makes him mad, just ask Sheogorath.

Might just switch my main to vamp. At this point it's way more unique than werewolf.

Chrlynsch

I'm a werewolf main, and I don't understand why this dungeon mechanic is a bad thing.

Ryuvain

Chrlynsch wrote: »

I'm a werewolf main, and I don't understand why this dungeon mechanic is a bad thing.

The dungeon mechanic itself is cool, but the lore explanation isn't.

Imagine if anyone could use any vampire abilities and even vampire lord without getting vampirism at all because they used a potion...

Just imagining that gives me a headache. There would literally be no reason to be a vampire at that point right? Well that's the werewolf problem now, you can duplicate all strengths and powers with a potion without ever getting lycanthropy itself. The fake werewolf is EVEN STRONGER than a true werewolf.

CP5

Ryuvain wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

I'm a werewolf main, and I don't understand why this dungeon mechanic is a bad thing.

The dungeon mechanic itself is cool, but the lore explanation isn't.

Imagine if anyone could use any vampire abilities and even vampire lord without getting vampirism at all because they used a potion...

Just imagining that gives me a headache. There would literally be no reason to be a vampire at that point right? Well that's the werewolf problem now, you can duplicate all strengths and powers with a potion without ever getting lycanthropy itself. The fake werewolf is EVEN STRONGER than a true werewolf.

No? All the dungeon offers is some insane persons uber potion that allows limited access to a very specific form, not making werewolf irrelevant at all. With how many things exist in the ES universe being able to mimic things through different means makes sense, but in no way does this invalidate hircine's lycanthropy and you are reading way to much into this.

Ryuvain

CP5 wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

I'm a werewolf main, and I don't understand why this dungeon mechanic is a bad thing.

The dungeon mechanic itself is cool, but the lore explanation isn't.

Imagine if anyone could use any vampire abilities and even vampire lord without getting vampirism at all because they used a potion...

Just imagining that gives me a headache. There would literally be no reason to be a vampire at that point right? Well that's the werewolf problem now, you can duplicate all strengths and powers with a potion without ever getting lycanthropy itself. The fake werewolf is EVEN STRONGER than a true werewolf.

No? All the dungeon offers is some insane persons uber potion that allows limited access to a very specific form, not making werewolf irrelevant at all. With how many things exist in the ES universe being able to mimic things through different means makes sense, but in no way does this invalidate hircine's lycanthropy and you are reading way to much into this.

So having access to lycanthropy's strongest form (Werewolf lord kinda vanished) isn't a big deal? Maybe behemoth and werewolf in general just need to be fleshed out more lorewise? I feel like there's so many holes here.

The temporary part would help this, but werewolves don't have access to behemoth at all. (As far as we know)

Josira

oh so basically we get a cooler werewolf form but only for the dungeon? oh ok. oh look it has effort put into it. unlike blood scion.
kinda pissed off ngl.

Ryuvain

Josira wrote: »

oh so basically we get a cooler werewolf form but only for the dungeon? oh ok. oh look it has effort put into it. unlike blood scion.
kinda pissed off ngl.

At least blood scion wasn't given out to literally anyone including werewolves and also restricted to only a single dungeon. I'd rather take behemoth being a giant werewolf reskin tbh. It would be playable at least.

Thevampirenight

What the alchemist did was recreate the effects but not the actual curse, though if it was the alchemists intent he could have recreated the curse as well. Basically nothing is definitive when it comes to the Elder scrolls and that seems to be the official policy.
So the idea here is they are coming up with a new cool thing that hasn't really been seen before when it comes to werewolves and other werebeasts.

In Tes the Daedric Princes and Aedra are above morality, because they literally the concepts they are known for. Molag Bal doesn't have the sphere of domination and corruption. Molag Bal is Domination and Corruption a concept made manifest. Hircine isn't just the hunter and prey, he is Hunter and Prey. So the Daedric Princes are basically forces of nature and are the embodiment of the concepts they are known for by Mortals. Alchemists/Mages/Scientists in Tes are able to recreate conditions because they are using components know to exist within the reality.

In real life scientists can do the same thing as this was actually done with the Black Death which was one of the most devastating diseases centuries back. Scientists were even able to create a relative of an extinct virus called small pox in a university of all places.
https://www.statnews.com/2017/07/07/smallpox-relative-extinct/

Ryuvain

Thevampirenight wrote: »

What the alchemist did was recreate the effects but not the actual curse, though if it was the alchemists intent he could have recreated the curse as well. Basically nothing is definitive when it comes to the Elder scrolls and that seems to be the official policy.
So the idea here is they are coming up with a new cool thing that hasn't really been seen before when it comes to werewolves and other werebeasts.

In Tes the Daedric Princes and Aedra are above morality, because they literally the concepts they are known for. Molag Bal doesn't have the sphere of domination and corruption. Molag Bal is Domination and Corruption a concept made manifest. Hircine isn't just the hunter and prey, he is Hunter and Prey. So the Daedric Princes are basically forces of nature and are the embodiment of the concepts they are known for by Mortals. Alchemists/Mages/Scientists in Tes are able to recreate conditions because they are using components know to exist within the reality.

In real life scientists can do the same thing as this was actually done with the Black Death which was one of the most devastating diseases centuries back. Scientists were even able to create a relative of an extinct virus called small pox in a university of all places.
https://www.statnews.com/2017/07/07/smallpox-relative-extinct/

So science recreating it right? By that logic nothing is unable to be reproduced with a potion and you even keep only the good sides. I guess I can see that and why lycanthropy could co-exist. Just feels like it's still wrong in some way with the power gap. A Vamp lord potion sounds so wrong, but possible.

Fine, I lost. I can finally accept it. Hopefully we get more fleshed out lore on the behemoths true origin and whatever happened to werewolf lord.

Thevampirenight

Ryuvain wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

What the alchemist did was recreate the effects but not the actual curse, though if it was the alchemists intent he could have recreated the curse as well. Basically nothing is definitive when it comes to the Elder scrolls and that seems to be the official policy.
So the idea here is they are coming up with a new cool thing that hasn't really been seen before when it comes to werewolves and other werebeasts.

In Tes the Daedric Princes and Aedra are above morality, because they literally the concepts they are known for. Molag Bal doesn't have the sphere of domination and corruption. Molag Bal is Domination and Corruption a concept made manifest. Hircine isn't just the hunter and prey, he is Hunter and Prey. So the Daedric Princes are basically forces of nature and are the embodiment of the concepts they are known for by Mortals. Alchemists/Mages/Scientists in Tes are able to recreate conditions because they are using components know to exist within the reality.

In real life scientists can do the same thing as this was actually done with the Black Death which was one of the most devastating diseases centuries back. Scientists were even able to create a relative of an extinct virus called small pox in a university of all places.
https://www.statnews.com/2017/07/07/smallpox-relative-extinct/

So science recreating it right? By that logic nothing is unable to be reproduced with a potion and you even keep only the good sides. I guess I can see that and why lycanthropy could co-exist. Just feels like it's still wrong in some way with the power gap. A Vamp lord potion sounds so wrong, but possible.

Fine, I lost. I can finally accept it. Hopefully we get more fleshed out lore on the behemoths true origin and whatever happened to werewolf lord.

Alchemy has downsides to it and even a master might not be able to remove all the downsides from a complex project like creating a strain of vampirism or lycanthropy..That one Alchemist mad scientist lady in Greymoor Keep, was refining the Bloodknights she created though merging together various vampiric bloodlines and the downside to that was she couldn't restrain their most basic instincts and that is what she was trying to do when we show up to kill her. So even if you create a vampire or werewolf bloodline using just alchemy. It does not mean that there isn't downsides to it. As it might grant its own strengths but also its weaknesses.

Ryuvain

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

What the alchemist did was recreate the effects but not the actual curse, though if it was the alchemists intent he could have recreated the curse as well. Basically nothing is definitive when it comes to the Elder scrolls and that seems to be the official policy.
So the idea here is they are coming up with a new cool thing that hasn't really been seen before when it comes to werewolves and other werebeasts.

In Tes the Daedric Princes and Aedra are above morality, because they literally the concepts they are known for. Molag Bal doesn't have the sphere of domination and corruption. Molag Bal is Domination and Corruption a concept made manifest. Hircine isn't just the hunter and prey, he is Hunter and Prey. So the Daedric Princes are basically forces of nature and are the embodiment of the concepts they are known for by Mortals. Alchemists/Mages/Scientists in Tes are able to recreate conditions because they are using components know to exist within the reality.

In real life scientists can do the same thing as this was actually done with the Black Death which was one of the most devastating diseases centuries back. Scientists were even able to create a relative of an extinct virus called small pox in a university of all places.
https://www.statnews.com/2017/07/07/smallpox-relative-extinct/

So science recreating it right? By that logic nothing is unable to be reproduced with a potion and you even keep only the good sides. I guess I can see that and why lycanthropy could co-exist. Just feels like it's still wrong in some way with the power gap. A Vamp lord potion sounds so wrong, but possible.

Fine, I lost. I can finally accept it. Hopefully we get more fleshed out lore on the behemoths true origin and whatever happened to werewolf lord.

Alchemy has downsides to it and even a master might not be able to remove all the downsides from it. Creating something as complex as vampirism and lycanthropy and I'm guessing it would take quite a bit of refining to get it all right.That one Alchemist in Greymoor Keep, was refining the Bloodknights though she couldn't restrain their most basic instincts. That is what she was trying to do. So even if you create a vampire or werewolf bloodline using just alchemy. It does not mean that there isn't downsides to it.

I forgot about bloodknights but I'm fine with them since they are original true vampires before becoming knights. Think she says something about only enhancing something in their blood.

What I hate about alchemy werewolves are that they're NORMAL PEOPLE and not werewolves at all. And they stay normal after turning back too. That's my entire point, there's NO DRAWBACK AT ALL and the creator themselves confirm it.

Enhanced werewolves from wolfhunter are completely fine. Now they introduce a potion doing the exact same thing without being a werewolf, without becoming a werewolf, and with no downside as said by himself in his note. I even posted it. This potion isn't even a bloodline either.

Feel like everyone is skipping the main point I keep bringing up.

Aigym_Hlervu

Ryuvain wrote: »

Anyone else disturbed by how werewolf can easily be simulated with alchemy?

No, at least I'm not. I've already said why here, @Thevampirenight told you why here, @CP5 told you why here. It took us time to write it, but it still seems to have no effect.

Ryuvain wrote: »

If it's possible to make a potion with that effect then why be a werewolf?

.. Why have normal werewolf when the alchemy version (which is not a true werewolf in any way) exists? You literally dont have to be a werewolf to use it and you still aren't one afterwards.

It renders the originals completely obsolete and all of these details have been confirmed on pts. Does anyone else think that this is wrong?

"Why be a werewolf?" to whom? To the Heroes of the Elder Scrolls, i.e. Players, or to the majority of tamrielans? If it is the denizens of Tamriel you mean, then no, it is not wrong, because:

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

..lycanthropy is a nightmare to common denizens of Tamriel, basically it is avoided as possible, so I doubt such potions will be traded in general stores so that a common farmer could buy it.

Moreover, the potion as well as those "fake werewolves" will not exist widely in Tamriel in future ages until 4E 201 at least, that means the potion itself is a result of private experiment only and will not be spread that wide as those common means of becoming a werewolf. The question "Why be a werewolf?" was relevant to those like the Companions in TES V only. But even they did not choose between the werewolves, werebears or wereboars, not speaking of any alchemical or any other ways of acquiring it.

If you speak of players' choices @Tommy_The_Gun spoke of:

Ryuvain wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As long as it stays as a one Dungeon Exclusive mechanic - I am fine with that.

But if in 1 - 2 years from now it will be a "overland" potion - then yes, WW will be pointless.

At least someone saw what I was talking about. I've been advocating for adding behemoth but who knows.

..then you might be right, but then again, your question still has no sense today because:
1. It is based on too many "if":
A. If nothing changes by the time of content release;
B. If the devs ever make the potion usable "overland", beyond the dungeon;
C. If they won't downgrade the powers of a "fake werewolf" and change the standard werewolf to make it playable along with the "fake" one and leave everything "as it is";
D. If they won't implement any lore explanation to why that potion ever became available to everyone in Tamriel and what's going to happen to it in it's future;
E. Many other "if" actually.
2. I suppose it should not have been posted in the Lore section - player choices regarding game mechanics and balance is not something supposed to be discussed here. It's all the same thing as if you were discussing here the implementation of those TES III Dwemer satchel charges or the mechanics of the Amulet of Kings we used during the Main Quest into the PvP or overland content the way they are depicted today. I think it's senseless.

Finally, you share your own attitude to the work of that alchemist:

Ryuvain wrote: »

What I hate about alchemy werewolves are that they're NORMAL PEOPLE and not werewolves at all. And they stay normal after turning back too. That's my entire point, there's NO DRAWBACK AT ALL and the creator themselves confirm it. .. Feel like everyone is skipping the main point I keep bringing up.

Ok, another entire point and yes, the alchemist is an "evil genius" who's research brought those extraordinary results with none of the disadvantages a standard werewolf has to face. So, what, what's next ? How does your personal attitude towards the current werewolf dungeon game mechanic correspond to the Lore section since it has already been explaned? You don't want that potion to ever exist, the other players are indifferent, the third are willing to test it in that dungeon. So what's next? We're not skipping none of your main points, mate. Maybe, it is you who can't formulate the question precisely? The people shared their opinions on each question you asked, so what answers did you expect to receive but failed, so you now feel yourself that way?

Ryuvain

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Anyone else disturbed by how werewolf can easily be simulated with alchemy?

No, at least I'm not. I've already said why here, @Thevampirenight told you why here, @CP5 told you why here. It took us time to write it, but it still seems to have no effect.

Ryuvain wrote: »

If it's possible to make a potion with that effect then why be a werewolf?

.. Why have normal werewolf when the alchemy version (which is not a true werewolf in any way) exists? You literally dont have to be a werewolf to use it and you still aren't one afterwards.

It renders the originals completely obsolete and all of these details have been confirmed on pts. Does anyone else think that this is wrong?

"Why be a werewolf?" to whom? To the Heroes of the Elder Scrolls, i.e. Players, or to the majority of tamrielans? If it is the denizens of Tamriel you mean, then no, it is not wrong, because:

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

..lycanthropy is a nightmare to common denizens of Tamriel, basically it is avoided as possible, so I doubt such potions will be traded in general stores so that a common farmer could buy it.

Moreover, the potion as well as those "fake werewolves" will not exist in Tamriel in future ages, that means the potion itself is a result of private experiment only and will not be spread that wide as those common means of becoming a werewolf. The question "Why be a werewolf?" was relevant to those like the Companions in TES V only. But even they did not choose between the werewolves, werebears or wereboars, not speaking of any alchemical or any other ways of acquiring it.

If you speak of players' choices @Tommy_The_Gun spoke of:

Ryuvain wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As long as it stays as a one Dungeon Exclusive mechanic - I am fine with that.

But if in 1 - 2 years from now it will be a "overland" potion - then yes, WW will be pointless.

At least someone saw what I was talking about. I've been advocating for adding behemoth but who knows.

..then you might be right, but then again, your question still has no sense today because:
1. It is based on too many "if":
A. If nothing changes by the time of content release;
B. If the devs ever make the potion usable "overland", beyond the dungeon;
C. If they won't downgrade the powers of a "fake werewolf" and change the standard werewolf to make it playable along with the "fake" one and leave everything "as it is";
D. If they won't implement any lore explanation to why that potion ever became available to everyone in Tamriel and what's going to happen to it in it's future;
E. Many other "if" actually.
2. I suppose it should not have been posted in the Lore section - player choices regarding game mechanics and balance is not something supposed to be discussed here. It's all the same thing as if you were discussing here the implementation of those TES III Dwemer satchel charges or the mechanics of the Amulet of Kings we used during the Main Quest into the PvP or overland content the way they are depicted today. I think it's senseless.

Finally, you share your own attitude to the work of that alchemist:

Ryuvain wrote: »

What I hate about alchemy werewolves are that they're NORMAL PEOPLE and not werewolves at all. And they stay normal after turning back too. That's my entire point, there's NO DRAWBACK AT ALL and the creator themselves confirm it. .. Feel like everyone is skipping the main point I keep bringing up.

Ok, another entire point and yes, the alchemist is an "evil genius" who's research brought those extraordinary results with none of the disadvantages a standard werewolf has to face. So, what, what's next ? How does your personal attitude towards the current werewolf dungeon game mechanic correspond to the Lore section since it has already been explaned? You don't want that potion to ever exist, the other players are indifferent, the third are willing to test it in that dungeon. So what's next? We're not skipping none of your main points, mate. Maybe, it is you who can't formulate the question precisely? The people shared their opinions on each question you asked, so what answers did you expect to receive but failed, so you now feel yourself that way?

Yep, shouldn't have been in lore. Because lorewise its basically confirmed and nothing can change.

My question probably could've been how do people feel about how it has no downsides or something instead. Or maybe about how behemoth has too many uncertainties surrounding its own lore. It's an opinion that no one else can share.

Maybe general forums could've been a better place to post that, but it's also only on pts.

Frustrating but whatever.

Aigym_Hlervu

Ryuvain wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Anyone else disturbed by how werewolf can easily be simulated with alchemy?

No, at least I'm not. I've already said why here, @Thevampirenight told you why here, @CP5 told you why here. It took us time to write it, but it still seems to have no effect.

Ryuvain wrote: »

If it's possible to make a potion with that effect then why be a werewolf?

.. Why have normal werewolf when the alchemy version (which is not a true werewolf in any way) exists? You literally dont have to be a werewolf to use it and you still aren't one afterwards.

It renders the originals completely obsolete and all of these details have been confirmed on pts. Does anyone else think that this is wrong?

"Why be a werewolf?" to whom? To the Heroes of the Elder Scrolls, i.e. Players, or to the majority of tamrielans? If it is the denizens of Tamriel you mean, then no, it is not wrong, because:

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

..lycanthropy is a nightmare to common denizens of Tamriel, basically it is avoided as possible, so I doubt such potions will be traded in general stores so that a common farmer could buy it.

Moreover, the potion as well as those "fake werewolves" will not exist in Tamriel in future ages, that means the potion itself is a result of private experiment only and will not be spread that wide as those common means of becoming a werewolf. The question "Why be a werewolf?" was relevant to those like the Companions in TES V only. But even they did not choose between the werewolves, werebears or wereboars, not speaking of any alchemical or any other ways of acquiring it.

If you speak of players' choices @Tommy_The_Gun spoke of:

Ryuvain wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As long as it stays as a one Dungeon Exclusive mechanic - I am fine with that.

But if in 1 - 2 years from now it will be a "overland" potion - then yes, WW will be pointless.

At least someone saw what I was talking about. I've been advocating for adding behemoth but who knows.

..then you might be right, but then again, your question still has no sense today because:
1. It is based on too many "if":
A. If nothing changes by the time of content release;
B. If the devs ever make the potion usable "overland", beyond the dungeon;
C. If they won't downgrade the powers of a "fake werewolf" and change the standard werewolf to make it playable along with the "fake" one and leave everything "as it is";
D. If they won't implement any lore explanation to why that potion ever became available to everyone in Tamriel and what's going to happen to it in it's future;
E. Many other "if" actually.
2. I suppose it should not have been posted in the Lore section - player choices regarding game mechanics and balance is not something supposed to be discussed here. It's all the same thing as if you were discussing here the implementation of those TES III Dwemer satchel charges or the mechanics of the Amulet of Kings we used during the Main Quest into the PvP or overland content the way they are depicted today. I think it's senseless.

Finally, you share your own attitude to the work of that alchemist:

Ryuvain wrote: »

What I hate about alchemy werewolves are that they're NORMAL PEOPLE and not werewolves at all. And they stay normal after turning back too. That's my entire point, there's NO DRAWBACK AT ALL and the creator themselves confirm it. .. Feel like everyone is skipping the main point I keep bringing up.

Ok, another entire point and yes, the alchemist is an "evil genius" who's research brought those extraordinary results with none of the disadvantages a standard werewolf has to face. So, what, what's next ? How does your personal attitude towards the current werewolf dungeon game mechanic correspond to the Lore section since it has already been explaned? You don't want that potion to ever exist, the other players are indifferent, the third are willing to test it in that dungeon. So what's next? We're not skipping none of your main points, mate. Maybe, it is you who can't formulate the question precisely? The people shared their opinions on each question you asked, so what answers did you expect to receive but failed, so you now feel yourself that way?

Yep, shouldn't have been in lore. Because lorewise its basically confirmed and nothing can change.

My question probably could've been how do people feel about how it has no downsides or something instead. Or maybe about how behemoth has too many uncertainties surrounding its own lore. It's an opinion that no one else can share.

Maybe general forums could've been a better place to post that, but it's also only on pts.

Frustrating but whatever.

Ah, that's the thing.. Thank you for specifying it. That might be the reason . Yes, the General section was not that good idea too, but there is a forums section "Public Test Server" - I think this thread would perfectly fit in there! Try sharing it there, or maybe, @ZOS_Adrikoth could help to relocate it. Have a good day, @Ryuvain, and thank you !

Chrlynsch

Who says the alchemist isn't lying in his letter? That's the beauty of elder scroll lore.

Cameron991

I could see where you’re coming from! I do t really have a problem with it just because I see it as sort of just a mad scientist was able to create the impossible by allowing people to harness the power of a stronger ww. If it makes you feel better I’m sure he could not have made the potion without actual ww so therefore we still are important and play a huge role in the mad scientist role. Without the ww he would have no way to make the potion maybe? Also tbh just bc something is bigger and stronger doesn’t necessarily mean it is better🤔 yes this alchemical behemoth May straight up be bigger and stronger but thats bc a psychotic mad scientist such as arkasis was able to perfect a potion that makes a apex predator. Now back to the whole bigger and stronger doesn’t always mean better ww were forced to change their life style and they had to adapt to survive and hunt these alchemical wolfs didn’t have to so perhaps ww could still easily take one down bc they are natural hunters that are smart enough to hunt smartly and attack when it’s right or take it down before they can react. Yes the brute strength of the behemoth would beat a ww in direct combat but all it takes is a ww with the element of surprise to take the big boy down. We have seen this example with Hircine and sheogorath in the past when they made a bet, Hircine summoned a giant weredaedroth and Sheo summoned a bird that basically made the daedroth kill itself while the bird was on the head therefore concluding bigger is not always better. And I think that goes along with this example too, smarts will win a battle and I think the ww would prevail in that case since they have lived a life being a predator

Ryuvain

Cameron991 wrote: »

I could see where you’re coming from! I do t really have a problem with it just because I see it as sort of just a mad scientist was able to create the impossible by allowing people to harness the power of a stronger ww. If it makes you feel better I’m sure he could not have made the potion without actual ww so therefore we still are important and play a huge role in the mad scientist role. Without the ww he would have no way to make the potion maybe? Also tbh just bc something is bigger and stronger doesn’t necessarily mean it is better🤔 yes this alchemical behemoth May straight up be bigger and stronger but thats bc a psychotic mad scientist such as arkasis was able to perfect a potion that makes a apex predator. Now back to the whole bigger and stronger doesn’t always mean better ww were forced to change their life style and they had to adapt to survive and hunt these alchemical wolfs didn’t have to so perhaps ww could still easily take one down bc they are natural hunters that are smart enough to hunt smartly and attack when it’s right or take it down before they can react. Yes the brute strength of the behemoth would beat a ww in direct combat but all it takes is a ww with the element of surprise to take the big boy down. We have seen this example with Hircine and sheogorath in the past when they made a bet, Hircine summoned a giant weredaedroth and Sheo summoned a bird that basically made the daedroth kill itself while the bird was on the head therefore concluding bigger is not always better. And I think that goes along with this example too, smarts will win a battle and I think the ww would prevail in that case since they have lived a life being a predator

Yeah, that does help a bit. What doesn't help though is how they always have every single strong werewolf leader being a behemoth. Like they're trying to say behemoth is superior.

I don't mind it being superior like vamp lord, but it shouldn't be given out like candy then. (Unless we get to use it outside the dungeon.)