Any point to werewolf anymore? Confirmed now.

Ryuvain

Anyone else disturbed by how werewolf can easily be simulated with alchemy? If it's possible to make a potion with that effect then why be a werewolf?

I'll clarify my question. Why have normal werewolf when the alchemy version (which is not a true werewolf in any way) exists? You literally dont have to be a werewolf to use it and you still aren't one afterwards.

It renders the originals completely obsolete and all of these details have been confirmed on pts. Does anyone else think that this is wrong?

Update: Added a video about the form for comparison to true werewolves.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qxKoBd72yfs

If it was only a werewolf that was enhanced I'd be completely fine with it, but it's reduced to a simple potion that doesn't make them a werewolf at all, you just get the form and powers higher than that of true werewolves.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/58533

New article that basically confirms everything. Sad times.

Eporem

In lore I would think that the alchemists are experimenting with potions and came across how to make these.

PrayingSeraph

Ryuvain wrote: »

Anyone else disturbed by how werewolf can easily be simulated with alchemy? If it's possible to make a potion with that effect then why be a werewolf?

Well we have not gotten the full context yet of the new dungeon, so more answers may be present there.

However I would wager alchemical transformation into a werewolf is not something just anyone can easily make potions of. Said potions would only transform the body, but have no effect on the soul. Its secular lycanthropy so to speak.

Vevvev

This chapter, and somewhat of Summerset, has been having it where alchemists have been able to pull things off like vampirisim. Kind of makes sense considering they're both daedric diseases, but it has ruined the mystical feel they both once had.

Ryuvain

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Anyone else disturbed by how werewolf can easily be simulated with alchemy? If it's possible to make a potion with that effect then why be a werewolf?

Well we have not gotten the full context yet of the new dungeon, so more answers may be present there.

However I would wager alchemical transformation into a werewolf is not something just anyone can easily make potions of. Said potions would only transform the body, but have no effect on the soul. Its secular lycanthropy so to speak.

That's exactly the problem. Its just a stronger werewolf with no downsides via potion. There's really no point to being a true werewolf then. (Or vampire)

Vevvev wrote: »

This chapter, and somewhat of Summerset, has been having it where alchemists have been able to pull things off like vampirisim. Kind of makes sense considering they're both daedric diseases, but it has ruined the mystical feel they both once had.

I felt this post. You get the normal version with drawbacks while everyone else can just laugh at the originals. You could just get either disease, get a stronger version, and also take no drawbacks or being binded to a daedric prince. Imagine these potions being sold in stores or something. Werewolf just got kicked in the teeth. (Also vamp)

Aigym_Hlervu

I think that shouldn't be judged from that perspective, OP. There are no "true" or "false" werewolves - the main question here is how lycanthropy is obtained. Moreover, lycanthropy is a nightmare to common denizens of Tamriel, basically it is avoided as possible, so I doubt such potions will be traded in general stores so that a common farmer could buy it.

We know that all the processes in Aurbis are subject to magicka. It is said in the Fundaments of Alchemy - "Many items in our world, mostly organic in nature, can be broken down into more fundamental essences with magickal properties". Magicka research is conducted within certain schools of magicka, one of them is the School of Alteration. Unlike the School of Illusion, the spells of the School of Alteration create a reality that is recognized by everyone, they change material objects, no matter be it a mage or his target. Lycanthropy changes the reality of both either through an "alchemical" way, a bite, or through certain magickal influence provided either by some enchanted items like the Ring of Hircine (there are no downsides of transformation through this item too, though it's not that easy to get the Ring - why should they ever be?) or by direct incantations written in some scrolls. Though only those bitten by a werewolf are allowed to pass the Hircine's Gift ritual, can communicate with their new master through their dreams and thus be bound to Hircine's will, nonetheless the act of transformation is a magickal process. So, in my opinion, if alchemy and incantations cure lycanthropy, thus alchemy and incantations can likewise be another absolutely lore-wise way to alter yourself becoming a werewolf.

Ryuvain

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

I think that shouldn't be judged from that perspective, OP. There are no "true" or "false" werewolves - the main question here is how lycanthropy is obtained. Moreover, lycanthropy is a nightmare to common denizens of Tamriel, basically it is avoided as possible, so I doubt such potions will be traded in general stores so that a common farmer could buy it.

We know that all the processes in Aurbis are subject to magicka. It is said in the Fundaments of Alchemy - "Many items in our world, mostly organic in nature, can be broken down into more fundamental essences with magickal properties". Magicka research is conducted within certain schools of magicka, one of them is the School of Alteration. Unlike the School of Illusion, the spells of the School of Alteration create a reality that is recognized by everyone, they change material objects, no matter be it a mage or his target. Lycanthropy changes the reality of both either through an "alchemical" way, a bite, or through certain magickal influence provided either by some enchanted items like the Ring of Hircine (there are no downsides of transformation through this item too, though it's not that easy to get the Ring - why should they ever be?) or by direct incantations written in some scrolls. Though only those bitten by a werewolf are allowed to pass the Hircine's Gift ritual, can communicate with their new master through their dreams and thus be bound to Hircine's will, nonetheless the act of transformation is a magickal process. So, in my opinion, if alchemy and incantations cure lycanthropy, thus alchemy and incantations can likewise be another absolutely lore-wise way to alter yourself becoming a werewolf.

I dont agree that its possible anymore, but why be a normal werewolf with all the drawbacks involved anymore? It just seems like such an upgrade that it wouldn't make sense for people to get it from Hircine anymore.

FabresFour

Ryuvain wrote: »

I dont agree that its possible anymore, but why be a normal werewolf with all the drawbacks involved anymore? It just seems like such an upgrade that it wouldn't make sense for people to get it from Hircine anymore.

So, I doubt that this type of alchemy is found on any corner. Probably the boss of this dungeon is an extremely powerful alchemist, of the rare types within the lore, in which only he can make the mixes he does.

So I think the answer is there: Nobody uses these potions, because nobody knows that they exist and they are monstrously rare.

Ryuvain

FabresFour wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

I dont agree that its possible anymore, but why be a normal werewolf with all the drawbacks involved anymore? It just seems like such an upgrade that it wouldn't make sense for people to get it from Hircine anymore.

So, I doubt that this type of alchemy is found on any corner. Probably the boss of this dungeon is an extremely powerful alchemist, of the rare types within the lore, in which only he can make the mixes he does.

So I think the answer is there: Nobody uses these potions, because nobody knows that they exist and they are monstrously rare.

Makes sense. To the very few that know of it though, the question still remains.

Aigym_Hlervu

Ryuvain wrote: »

FabresFour wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

I dont agree that its possible anymore, but why be a normal werewolf with all the drawbacks involved anymore? It just seems like such an upgrade that it wouldn't make sense for people to get it from Hircine anymore.

So, I doubt that this type of alchemy is found on any corner. Probably the boss of this dungeon is an extremely powerful alchemist, of the rare types within the lore, in which only he can make the mixes he does.

So I think the answer is there: Nobody uses these potions, because nobody knows that they exist and they are monstrously rare.

Makes sense. To the very few that know of it though, the question still remains.

I think I've understood you now, OP. Have you asked a question regarding the lore-wise explanation of being that werewolf outside that dungeon, i.e. a question regarding the unreleased content previously absent in the lore? If I took it right, then what kind of answer are you looking for other than speculation? I gave you the answer to your first question regarding of how a werewolf can easily be simulated with alchemy. Just the same way it can be cured of it and transformed by using the Ring of Hircine and Alteration spells. But your second question - why don't you wait until the content is released, play it, read the notes the devs will put in that dungeon and only then ask a question if anything remains uncertain? I guess I still do not understand your point, sorry.

Ryuvain

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

FabresFour wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

I dont agree that its possible anymore, but why be a normal werewolf with all the drawbacks involved anymore? It just seems like such an upgrade that it wouldn't make sense for people to get it from Hircine anymore.

So, I doubt that this type of alchemy is found on any corner. Probably the boss of this dungeon is an extremely powerful alchemist, of the rare types within the lore, in which only he can make the mixes he does.

So I think the answer is there: Nobody uses these potions, because nobody knows that they exist and they are monstrously rare.

Makes sense. To the very few that know of it though, the question still remains.

I think I've understood you now, OP. Have you asked a question regarding the lore-wise explanation of being that werewolf outside that dungeon, i.e. a question regarding the unreleased content previously absent in the lore? If I took it right, then what kind of answer are you looking for other than speculation? I gave you the answer to your first question regarding of how a werewolf can easily be simulated with alchemy. Just the same way it can be cured of it and transformed by using the Ring of Hircine and Alteration spells. But your second question - why don't you wait until the content is released, play it, read the notes the devs will put in that dungeon and only then ask a question if anything remains uncertain? I guess I still do not understand your point, sorry.

How it happens I understand, I'm just asking why is the artificial/fake way so much stronger? I guess I just think it undermines the originals. At least back in wolfhunter they were only enhanced, people who were already werewolves.

Now its literally a way to use all werewolf abilities, (except better) without even being a werewolf. I can wait for the dungeon but they already explained during the stream that it's all alchemy.

Imagine there was a rare potion that gives behemoth form right? Sure it's rare but I don't even have to be a werewolf to get an even stronger form. I could even go vampire...

Aigym_Hlervu

Ryuvain wrote: »

why is the artificial/fake way so much stronger?

Ryuvain wrote: »

Imagine there was a rare potion that gives behemoth form right? Sure it's rare but I don't even have to be a werewolf to get an even stronger form. I could even go vampire...

I guess you've answered your own question there . At least I have no better idea now then you do. That might be either a very strong potion, or a ritual, or Hircine's indirect intervention, or a spell, or a result of an experiment performed by some alchemist like Ernarde or Tzinghalis (especially like Tzinghalis, i.e. a vampire, so he could upgrade the process to make the vampires transform too). But the technology might be the same used by Ernarde, just look at his "Werewolf Enhancement" ability - a result of his study he casts upon his henchmen turning them into those Werewolf Behemoths. I'm not aware of any other options. Anyway, I don't think it's something completely new. Since we don't have final details, we just have to wait for the final release, otherwise it's just speculations.

Ryuvain

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

why is the artificial/fake way so much stronger?

Ryuvain wrote: »

Imagine there was a rare potion that gives behemoth form right? Sure it's rare but I don't even have to be a werewolf to get an even stronger form. I could even go vampire...

I guess you've answered your own question there . At least I have no better idea now then you do. That might be either a very strong potion, or a ritual, or Hircine's indirect intervention, or a spell, or a result of an experiment performed by some alchemist like Ernarde or Tzinghalis (especially like Tzinghalis, i.e. a vampire, so he could upgrade the process to make the vampires transform too). But the technology might be the same used by Ernarde, just look at his "Werewolf Enhancement" ability - a result of his study he casts upon his henchmen turning them into those Werewolf Behemoths. I'm not aware of any other options. Anyway, I don't think it's something completely new. Since we don't have final details, we just have to wait for the final release, otherwise it's just speculations.

Except that they said anyone can use it on stream. But I'll wait. Feel like a nightblade who had their stealth taken.

Ryuvain

Well. Played through the dungeon. Very tiny spoiler but:

The werewolf behemoth there are not true werewolves. Their boss instructed his guard to use the potions in case their werewolf allies act up.

So wrong how they made normal werewolves so weak in comparison.

Eporem

If these potions are only being given to the Behemoths, then wouldn't they just become stronger in the werewolfs ways than that of mortal becoming one? Who is the Behemoths boss.. I see him as experimenting with this potion on them, changing their strength.

Ryuvain

Eporem wrote: »

If these potions are only being given to the Behemoths, then wouldn't they just become stronger in the werewolfs ways than that of mortal becoming one? Who is the Behemoths boss.. I see him as experimenting with this potion on them, changing their strength.

They specify that the ones using the potions aren't werewolves at all. Since its alchemy I don't think it would work differently on an actual werewolf.

So fake alchemy Werewolf >>>>> true werewolf. They even said that the potion has no drawbacks at all too. I'm surprised no one else is questioning this. Wonder if people would care if vampire for the same treatment.

Now that I think about it, the gray host wouldn't need werewolves in the alliance anymore because everything about them can be simulated except being even better and with no downside.

nemvar

The Peryite worshippers union hereby issues a DMCA complaint to the serpent sign for treading on their trademark poison spit.

Ratzkifal

I would imagine that excessive long-term use of those potions has terrible side effects that we are yet unaware of.
Actual Lycanthropy is probably still far superior to the alchemical fake in the long run.

Ryuvain

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I would imagine that excessive long-term use of those potions has terrible side effects that we are yet unaware of.
Actual Lycanthropy is probably still far superior to the alchemical fake in the long run.

I REALLY hope so. Having the fakes be so far superior is just wrong. It literally takes all of their abilities so easily.

Its annoying how everyone keeps saying how there's so downsides or drawbacks during the quest. Heck, even we use the potions. It's like they don't realize how worthless it makes werewolf look in comparison.

Hopefully more people realize this once the dlc comes out. Not getting any reaction now from most.

Nomadic_Atmoran

FabresFour wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

I dont agree that its possible anymore, but why be a normal werewolf with all the drawbacks involved anymore? It just seems like such an upgrade that it wouldn't make sense for people to get it from Hircine anymore.

So, I doubt that this type of alchemy is found on any corner. Probably the boss of this dungeon is an extremely powerful alchemist, of the rare types within the lore, in which only he can make the mixes he does.

So I think the answer is there: Nobody uses these potions, because nobody knows that they exist and they are monstrously rare.

Yeah its been stated that the alchemist behind this is a "mad scientist" type. So I imagine his inventions are going to be so off the wall-down a rabbit hole type of thinking that it won't be a commonly rediscovered by other alchemists even if they are trying to find a way to reproduce Hircines curse.

Thevampirenight

A member of the mages guild was able to recreate vampirism using alchemy and if that is possible then its possible to do it with werewolves. Here is the thing anything a daedric prince can do a mortal can do with the right tools and those tools so happen to be alchemy and the right reagents.

Ryuvain

Thevampirenight wrote: »

An alchemist and a member of the mages guild was able to recreate vampirism using alchemy and if that is possible then its possible to do it with werewolves. Here is the thing anything a daedric prince can do a Mortal can do with the right tools and those tools are alchemy and the right reagents.

I understand that. But I think what is truly bothering me is that behemoth isn't fleshed out at all. So far, no natural werewolf has this form as far as I know.

Imagine if vamp lord was introduced as being commonly done using alchemy?

Or maybe Im overestimating werewolves natural power. Maybe they never had a stronger form than base? In that case they're still inferior.

I'll just stop now, don't see much point in continuing. Vamp is better than werewolf apparently. They have more inherent natural power. Shame, wanted them to be evenly balanced.

Thevampirenight

Ryuvain wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

An alchemist and a member of the mages guild was able to recreate vampirism using alchemy and if that is possible then its possible to do it with werewolves. Here is the thing anything a daedric prince can do a Mortal can do with the right tools and those tools are alchemy and the right reagents.

I understand that. But I think what is truly bothering me is that behemoth isn't fleshed out at all. So far, no natural werewolf has this form as far as I know.

Imagine if vamp lord was introduced as being commonly done using alchemy?

Or maybe Im overestimating werewolves natural power. Maybe they never had a stronger form than base? In that case they're still inferior.

I'll just stop now, don't see much point in continuing. Vamp is better than werewolf apparently. They have more inherent natural power. Shame, wanted them to be evenly balanced.

Actually natural werewolves have been upgraded to be behemoths its just these ones are just a pure alchemical version of it in the dungeon that does not mean the others encountered are not the real deal.

Ryuvain

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

An alchemist and a member of the mages guild was able to recreate vampirism using alchemy and if that is possible then its possible to do it with werewolves. Here is the thing anything a daedric prince can do a Mortal can do with the right tools and those tools are alchemy and the right reagents.

I understand that. But I think what is truly bothering me is that behemoth isn't fleshed out at all. So far, no natural werewolf has this form as far as I know.

Imagine if vamp lord was introduced as being commonly done using alchemy?

Or maybe Im overestimating werewolves natural power. Maybe they never had a stronger form than base? In that case they're still inferior.

I'll just stop now, don't see much point in continuing. Vamp is better than werewolf apparently. They have more inherent natural power. Shame, wanted them to be evenly balanced.

Actually natural werewolves have been upgraded to be behemoths its just these ones are just a pure alchemical version of it in the dungeon that does not mean the others encountered are not the real deal.

Yes, but since all behemoths were made with alchemy it implies that no behemoth is natural. Meaning it's not connected to werewolves.

Either way it makes it worse imo. Makes werewolves seem so weak since an entirely fake non-werewolf alchemical version puts them to shame. If it is a natural strong form for a werewolf it's still sad how it's simulated perfectly.

See what I mean? In comparison it makes them out to be regular garden variety monsters instead of rare strong ones like vamps.

Thevampirenight

Can someone post the screen shot of the full note or what the werewolf behemoths are in a spoiler so I can read it?
I want to see the lore from the dungeon.

Ryuvain

If no one posts it by tomorrow I can. If I'm lucky to get it in queue, last time I was waiting almost 2 hours.

Ryuvain

Some pts spoilers: still can't get a screenshot myself because of work.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qxKoBd72yfs

Shows off more of the behemoth which might give you an idea of how powerful (and awesome) it is compared to real werewolves. Keep in mind they're not werewolves at all.

If this isn't undermining werewolves I don't know what is. They do talk a bit about the potions.

Thevampirenight

You don't need to, according to my lorebooks addon, they should be in the research notes eidetic memory.
Ones called Scribbled Notes, Stone Garden
the other is called stone garden dissection notes. With the lorebooks addon you can unlock the eidectic memory without completing the mages guild you can just look up garden and go to that section and it will show you the notes. Read on them and screen shot whatever is listed the whole thing. Then you should be good. I just want to know whats in that information. Because I'm wanting to know more about alchemcial lycanthropy.

SshadowSscale

Op you are reading way too much into this.... This is nit some potion the players can make to use anywhere they want to.... It is a very rare and special potion made by the bkss of the dungeon meaning it is only a dungeon mechanic and we will not see it outside of the dungeon..... So no crownstore or player alchemy will allow you to go behemoth.... Only the dungeon mechanic... In truth doing it through alchemy makes way more sense to me than the behemith memento

Ryuvain

Thevampirenight wrote: »

You don't need to, according to my lorebooks addon, they should be in the research notes eidetic memory.
Ones called Scribbled Notes, Stone Garden
the other is called stone garden dissection notes. With the lorebooks addon you can unlock the eidectic memory without completing the mages guild you can just look up garden and go to that section and it will show you the notes. Read on them and screen shot whatever is listed the whole thing. Then you should be good. I just want to know whats in that information. Because I'm wanting to know more about alchemcial lycanthropy.

I'll have to get that add-on then. Sadly still at work, but I can the info when I get home.

Also (only from the notes I found myself when playing) they don't specifically talk about it. They only had instructions on it's use to fight against actual werewolves.

Ryuvain

SshadowSscale wrote: »

Op you are reading way too much into this.... This is nit some potion the players can make to use anywhere they want to.... It is a very rare and special potion made by the bkss of the dungeon meaning it is only a dungeon mechanic and we will not see it outside of the dungeon..... So no crownstore or player alchemy will allow you to go behemoth.... Only the dungeon mechanic... In truth doing it through alchemy makes way more sense to me than the behemith memento

Yeah I know. I'm just saying that it's annoying really. Like if vampire lord was revealed to be that easy a LOT of people would be angry.

Just felt that it makes true werewolves completely redundant in the dlc story. Don't you see it? Werewolf is a life changing condition like vampires and here's this potion that gives you the best of everything without committing at all.

Still love this dlc and going to buy it, it's just this blemish on a great product.