ZOS: Are you going to fix Magblade or what?

Langeston

I mostly play BGs and at this point, the class is basically unplayable in high MMR. Even if you reverted the past year+ worth of nerfs, it still wouldn't even be any better then mid-pack. [snip]

Even people that hate nightblades admit the class is in a garbage state. It seriously needs a rework.

[Edited to remove Bashing]

BigBragg

You know that isn't how things are done around here. They will just nerf everything else to bring it down to that level.

Cundu_Ertur

Right after they fix the servers, balance PVP for all, give Bosmeri and Argonians lore appropriate racial passives, and make sure that in every other respect every single player is 100% happy with the state of the game.

So, no. Never.

StamPlar_1976

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Right after they fix the servers, balance PVP for all, give Bosmeri and Argonians lore appropriate racial passives, and make sure that in every other respect every single player is 100% happy with the state of the game.

So, no. Never.

What s/he said.

Revokus

So many magicka classes are still at the bottom in PvP with their one trick pony spec magblade magnecro etc Get your act together ZOS ! Unbelievable.. You just need to look at the top stam specs and mag sorc and you'll see the huge difference.

Make melee magblade great again ! Fix the damn bugs and clunky animations with magnecro and make it so it's viable with something else than Harmony..Build diversity as dps is horrible with magnecro. It's been 84 years for god sake.

At this point even if New world is *** I'm sure they'll have more budget and resources/man power and I might finally play an action combat MMO without skill delays.

mocap

"eso magblade pvp bg" in youtube? Some nice videos there.
Don't know is it "Grand Overlord vs pack of Thanes of Falkreath" though )

mairwen85

They did 'fix' it, in the way you fix a dog. They neutered it... There's no coming back from that.

MincVinyl

Revokus wrote: »

So many magicka classes are still at the bottom in PvP with their one trick pony spec magblade magnecro etc Get your act together ZOS ! Unbelievable.. You just need to look at the top stam specs and mag sorc and you'll see the huge difference.

Make melee magblade great again ! Fix the damn bugs and clunky animations with magnecro and make it so it's viable with something else than Harmony..Build diversity as dps is horrible with magnecro. It's been 84 years for god sake.

At this point even if New world is *** I'm sure they'll have more budget and resources/man power and I might finally play an action combat MMO without skill delays.

Unlikely, new world is already having dev issues like we have with eso.....the combat is just terrible. Pvp is going to be a tiny side thing in the game. The devs in closed beta already started catering to the lowest common denominator players....effectively dumbing the game down to an abysmal state competitive wise. Sadly I think we are trapped with eso lag for a few more years.

---

As for nightblade, really what needs to happen is for the class to be redone based on the older 1.X to 2.X playstyles. Back when Sap tanks were a thing and the class wasn't just a one trick pony based on a light attack proc gimmick. Honestly reworking and getting rid of the light attack proc abilities in the game would do wonders....Obviously there would be gains else where in classes.

I mean I havent been concerned with a nightblade attacking me since like Imperial city release

Scarkii

i dunno i always find magblade being very strong in pvp especially after the healing nerfs but thats most likely because its a good magblade player

JayKwellen

Yep. Magblade damage isn't great (I truly realized this after playing a stamden for a while. WOW, the difference between the two is crazy), and the only burst it does have (Soul Harvest and Assassins Will) are slow to build up, telegraphed, easily dodgeable, and will rarely finish off a player with good intrinsic tankiness and healing. Healing isn't that amazing, and a big portion of it can also be negated by your enemy dodge-rolling. Mobility with shade is good, great if you know how to use it properly, but it also has it's downsides too. Tankiness can be good if you spec into it, but outside of 1v1 situations it starts to drop off fast as cloak doesn't heal for much and you can't reliably keep maim up on multiple people.

Magblade is the only class where I sometimes just can't beat good stam players. Even with three damage sets on plus minor vulnerability and major breech, one vigor is still enough to out heal my soul swallow/light attack spam, and one dodge enough to negate my burst combo. On my stamDK or stamden I could if I played well enough. Both of them had enough tankiness and healing to survive another stam characters burst combo, and enough of their own damage to wear down and finish off/burst down said character. On my magblade, when going against 5k+ weapon damage stam characters I don't feel like I'm playing a game of tug of war, it feels like being on your back foot the entire time hoping to survive long enough until your opponent makes a big enough mistake you can capitalize on.

However, if that mistake doesn't come, then you're simply boned. There's no dizzy - shalks - dawnbreaker - execute combo to simply power through someone. Instead you've got soul swallow (slow, dodgeable, low damage), assassins will (slow to build, slow projectile, telegraphed and loud, easy to dodge), and soul harvest (cast time, also telegraphed, also easy to dodge). As a magblade, you simply just don't have the killing power to brute force your way through a (good) stamina characters healing. Even if you found an opening, one to two dodge-rolls and your entire burst window is lost and you'll have to start again from 0.

I mean seriously, go watch some of zDan's videos. He plays an amazing magblade, and you can see this phenomenon as it unfolds in front of you. Some of his fights drag for waaay longer than they should, simply because there's nothing that can be done. Most of us obviously aren't as good as zDan, so the more realistic experience is that somewhere along the line we make a small mistake and get instantly crushed.

I saw the other side of this when I started my stamden. Not just how much stronger she was, but how weak magblades felt to fight against. Assuming I even saw one that wasn't bombing that is, as they're basically an endangered species it seems. Still, on the rare occasion I saw that little red soul swallow trail coming off me you know what I thought? Nothing. As in, "oh it's a magblade, I don't really need to worry about him" There isn't a single other class in the game I felt that disrespectfully about. Despite all this though, my magblade is still my main, because I'm just a masochist I guess.

TL;DR: Magblades are a dumpster fire, someone please send help.

Mayrael

Magblades as a class are in a very bad spot especially when it goes to damage because of overnerfed skills that are very easy to counter but at the same time require long build up. Magblades is heavily dependent on opponents, if you fight scrub you can win, but any experienced player can predict almost with 80-90% accuracy what will you do, after soul harvest there is always assassin's will, fear at the beginning or at the end of a combo and that's it. You know how to counter magblade and the best part is that there is really nothing magblade can do to stop you from countering his burst. Soul harvest has cast time, while assassin's will is very slow so even with fear combined most people have enough time to dodge both of those skills.

What contributes to this even more is in general bad shape of magicka, worse sets, worse sustain, requirement of investing into 2 separate resource pools.

setayco

How about we make threads on how to fix the characters more instead of complaint threads filled with animosity. I.e magicka necromancer, the current magicka morph increases damage for every second spent chasing the target. After the changes done to targeting and jump distance a debuff like change could be implemented to enhance the gameplay a bit.

Mabye a substantial healing absorption debuff like the poison for 2000-2500 hp. Making this not stack with others might be hard work but should be possible.

Or if that is to hard there is always a overlooked debuff thats is useful. Minor mangle! Decreasing the enemies hp by 10% for 7 seconds.
There are better ways to flood the forums with criticism while still shedding light to the problems that we face daily.

fastolfv_ESO

mag nb is still the best bombers in the game its just not the best setup for bgs

killingspreeb16_ESO

fastolfv_ESO wrote: »

mag nb is still the best bombers in the game its just not the best setup for bgs

Bomber is a niche playstyle and usually is only played in event's like MYM.

The only NB spec that can do fine in BG is the healer one.

The rest including stamblade are terrible in a BG scenario or simply a weaker version of other class/build.

The NB class in general need some change but mageblade especially.

Like the other poster said the combo is too easy to dodge.

A good start would be remove(atleast reduce)the cast time on incap/soul harvest and reduce the delay on bow even one of the two would be fine.
Make our burst combo reliable like the one of other classes.

Galwylin

To the OP, have you considered this is entirely where they want magblades to be? No offense to anyone but I don't get where folks get the idea they are fixing anything. To them everything is fine and has always been fine. I don't even think the "fixes" they have done in the past have been anything but to address changes in patches that they know will break some classes. And almost every time they do it anyway. They have a plan and part of that plan is to keep you engaged and you, as a whole, don't engage as much when all the water is calm so they must keep the sea churning. This isn't going to be "fixed" until they pick the next class to break.

Drdeath20

But in most scenarios in pve magblades make the best damage dealers bcz they deal out the most guranteed and most modifiable damage.

Being able to hold a 80k bow proc for the instant the boss reappears, lands, or is no longer immune.

Instant ranged execute. Alot of bosses have stuns during execute and that does not bode well for a channel skill but it does not effect a spammable like impale.

Instant ranged spammable that is also a HoT. Pretty handy for when its needed, like kitting the darkness or poisons on vso 1st boss or being on seige for vka or doing crystals on vss.

Holding a potion until after you use ultimate to build ulti quicker.

A special 20% buff to damage for 6seconds.

Strongest DoT in the game that also boosts speed.

Soo they suck in bgs. They are still great bombers, maybe the best damage dealers, good healers and very strong tanks. I agree that ZoS can do better but i feel that these post need to be better articulated and more thoughtful than just they suck. Please be more thorough, with suggestions and input.

Dracane

Drdeath20 wrote: »

But in most scenarios in pve magblades make the best damage dealers bcz they deal out the most guranteed and most modifiable damage.

Being able to hold a 80k bow proc for the instant the boss reappears, lands, or is no longer immune.

Instant ranged execute. Alot of bosses have stuns during execute and that does not bode well for a channel skill but it does not effect a spammable like impale.

Instant ranged spammable that is also a HoT. Pretty handy for when its needed, like kitting the darkness or poisons on vso 1st boss or being on seige for vka or doing crystals on vss.

Holding a potion until after you use ultimate to build ulti quicker.

A special 20% buff to damage for 6seconds.

Strongest DoT in the game that also boosts speed.

Soo they suck in bgs. They are still great bombers, maybe the best damage dealers, good healers and very strong tanks. I agree that ZoS can do better but i feel that these post need to be better articulated and more thoughtful than just they suck. Please be more thorough, with suggestions and input.

Magicka Nightblade is also one of the hardest if not the hardest light armor wearer to take out in pvp if played well enough.
Immense damage reduction when holding arrow stacks that, one of the best healing over time with their entire kit.
Exploiting through walls and ceilings to escape even the fastest specs.

I dread the day where ZoS gives in to the whining and actually gives them a burst heal. It already is one of the hardest classes to take out when they use everything they have. Yet even so, something is off about magblades and I just don't know what it is. They have superior survival and mobility and also good burst. Still they are not the threat they should be. They may be indomitable if they want, but also not very dangerous.

I would be very careful giving a class with so much tankiness more damage though. I feel like any magicka class, they suffer from rididculously slow projectile speeds and that dodge evasion lasts for way too long and from various hard counter skills like ball of lightning, wings and shimmering shield as well as the extra ranged block mitigation from sword and board.

Anyway. If any survivability or tankiness is given to them on top of what they already have, I sincerely hope they remove the ability to phase through walls and objects with shade or it just gets ridiculous.

likecats

Dracane wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

But in most scenarios in pve magblades make the best damage dealers bcz they deal out the most guranteed and most modifiable damage.

Being able to hold a 80k bow proc for the instant the boss reappears, lands, or is no longer immune.

Instant ranged execute. Alot of bosses have stuns during execute and that does not bode well for a channel skill but it does not effect a spammable like impale.

Instant ranged spammable that is also a HoT. Pretty handy for when its needed, like kitting the darkness or poisons on vso 1st boss or being on seige for vka or doing crystals on vss.

Holding a potion until after you use ultimate to build ulti quicker.

A special 20% buff to damage for 6seconds.

Strongest DoT in the game that also boosts speed.

Soo they suck in bgs. They are still great bombers, maybe the best damage dealers, good healers and very strong tanks. I agree that ZoS can do better but i feel that these post need to be better articulated and more thoughtful than just they suck. Please be more thorough, with suggestions and input.

Magicka Nightblade is also one of the hardest if not the hardest light armor wearer to take out in pvp if played well enough.
Immense damage reduction when holding arrow stacks that, one of the best healing over time with their entire kit.
Exploiting through walls and ceilings to escape even the fastest specs.

I dread the day where ZoS gives in to the whining and actually gives them a burst heal. It already is one of the hardest classes to take out when they use everything they have. Yet even so, something is off about magblades and I just don't know what it is. They have superior survival and mobility and also good burst. Still they are not the threat they should be. They may be indomitable if they want, but also not very dangerous.

I would be very careful giving a class with so much tankiness more damage though. I feel like any magicka class, they suffer from rididculously slow projectile speeds and that dodge evasion lasts for way too long and from various hard counter skills like ball of lightning, wings and shimmering shield as well as the extra ranged block mitigation from sword and board.

Anyway. If any survivability or tankiness is given to them on top of what they already have, I sincerely hope they remove the ability to phase through walls and objects with shade or it just gets ridiculous.

The problem with magblade is that all your abilities are projectiles. This is unlike magSorc (most similar to magblade) who at least get haunting curse, and endless fury.

When all your abilities are projectiles, there is very little you can do against:
1) DK with wings
2) Warden with shimmering
3) Sorcs with bolt escape morph
4) Cloak (well you can still use mark but its super nerfed now)
5) Dodge rolls

As a magblade even if you have great abilities on paper, you cannot punish the enemy and finish them off when they f up like you can with say stam warden with spin2win, or sorcs with curse and fury.

Unless they address this, magblade will never be a dominant class with or without a burst heal.

Rianai

Dracane wrote: »

Anyway. If any survivability or tankiness is given to them on top of what they already have, I sincerely hope they remove the ability to phase through walls and objects with shade or it just gets ridiculous.

Yea, so ridiculous. Gotta make sure to get rid of the one single situational chance someone has to escape tryharding Xv1 magsorcs.
Also superior survivability and mobility compared to what? Magsorc? Hardly. Best healing over time? That's why magblade is the only class, that is forced to run resto staff instead of being able to choose between that and snb like everyone else, right?

Czekoludek

Dracane wrote: »

Immense damage reduction when holding arrow stacks that, one of the best healing over time with their entire kit.

Wait what? By best hot you mean cloak hot that is weak for 99% of blades and work well only with high HP tank blades (if 4k healing with 50k max HP you can call well)? Or swallow soul that is good in PvE but in PvP its healing is cut twice (healing is based on dmg so first 50% less dmg in PvP, then 60% healing nerf for PvP)? You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
There is nothing to dread in magNb, they are good at running away from you by using shade (last great Nb ability). Their burst is bad, self healing is bad (try to play magblade without healing staff and tell us a little about that amazing hots), defense is okayish (great if you build more tanky but you won't be able to kill anybody).
Really, blades are only hard to kill because they are good at running away from you. Not the most efficient way of defence.

Rianai

Czekoludek wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Immense damage reduction when holding arrow stacks that, one of the best healing over time with their entire kit.

Or swallow soul that is good in PvE but in PvP its healing is cut twice (healing is based on dmg so first 50% less dmg in PvP, then 60% healing nerf for PvP)?

Not true actually. Only the dmg is affected by battle spirit (and player mitigation), the heal itself is not (but it also can't crit). This applies to all heals that are based on dmg dealt. Still not the greatest heal in PvP, but it is not THAT bad.

Fur_like_snow

They’re just reserved to the role of bomber/ganker. I’ve said before that as long as cloak works the way it does you’ll probably never see any substantial buff to NB. That playstyle has pigeonholed the class into its niche role.

Czekoludek

Rianai wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Immense damage reduction when holding arrow stacks that, one of the best healing over time with their entire kit.

Or swallow soul that is good in PvE but in PvP its healing is cut twice (healing is based on dmg so first 50% less dmg in PvP, then 60% healing nerf for PvP)?

Not true actually. Only the dmg is affected by battle spirit (and player mitigation), the heal itself is not (but it also can't crit). This applies to all heals that are based on dmg dealt. Still not the greatest heal in PvP, but it is not THAT bad.

That's weird, i feel like swallow soul is weaker after greymoor but if you are sure, mea culpa.

Still it is a weak heal that requires target and high damage build (so lower defence for better healing). Great in PvE where all damage modifiers can stack really high but pretty bad in PvP (and tied to slow projectaile so it can fail easily

Rianai

Czekoludek wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Immense damage reduction when holding arrow stacks that, one of the best healing over time with their entire kit.

Or swallow soul that is good in PvE but in PvP its healing is cut twice (healing is based on dmg so first 50% less dmg in PvP, then 60% healing nerf for PvP)?

Not true actually. Only the dmg is affected by battle spirit (and player mitigation), the heal itself is not (but it also can't crit). This applies to all heals that are based on dmg dealt. Still not the greatest heal in PvP, but it is not THAT bad.

That's weird, i feel like swallow soul is weaker after greymoor but if you are sure, mea culpa.

Still it is a weak heal that requires target and high damage build (so lower defence for better healing). Great in PvE where all damage modifiers can stack really high but pretty bad in PvP (and tied to slow projectaile so it can fail easily

Could be because of the increased crit resistance (if you aren't running malacath) and/or players blocking and dodging more, which can completely negate the healing.

SshadowSscale

Rianai wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Immense damage reduction when holding arrow stacks that, one of the best healing over time with their entire kit.

Or swallow soul that is good in PvE but in PvP its healing is cut twice (healing is based on dmg so first 50% less dmg in PvP, then 60% healing nerf for PvP)?

Not true actually. Only the dmg is affected by battle spirit (and player mitigation), the heal itself is not (but it also can't crit). This applies to all heals that are based on dmg dealt. Still not the greatest heal in PvP, but it is not THAT bad.

Huh as far as I know the damage is cut and then the heal is also cut..... Wil log on and try to test it to make sure tho.... But yeah I always thought that is the reason why sets that deal damage and then heal of the damage are never used in pvp.... But as stated will test later

Rianai

The reason dmg based heals tend to be bad in PvP is because dmg (and therefore healing) isn't just reduced by battle spirit but also by player mitigation, which is much higher than mob mitigation in PvE. Mobs are basically "naked" without defensive CP, crit resist or other dmg mitigation, so the actual heal reduction compared to PvE is much higher than 50 or 60% even without being affected twice by battlespirit.

Dracane

likecats wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

But in most scenarios in pve magblades make the best damage dealers bcz they deal out the most guranteed and most modifiable damage.

Being able to hold a 80k bow proc for the instant the boss reappears, lands, or is no longer immune.

Instant ranged execute. Alot of bosses have stuns during execute and that does not bode well for a channel skill but it does not effect a spammable like impale.

Instant ranged spammable that is also a HoT. Pretty handy for when its needed, like kitting the darkness or poisons on vso 1st boss or being on seige for vka or doing crystals on vss.

Holding a potion until after you use ultimate to build ulti quicker.

A special 20% buff to damage for 6seconds.

Strongest DoT in the game that also boosts speed.

Soo they suck in bgs. They are still great bombers, maybe the best damage dealers, good healers and very strong tanks. I agree that ZoS can do better but i feel that these post need to be better articulated and more thoughtful than just they suck. Please be more thorough, with suggestions and input.

Magicka Nightblade is also one of the hardest if not the hardest light armor wearer to take out in pvp if played well enough.
Immense damage reduction when holding arrow stacks that, one of the best healing over time with their entire kit.
Exploiting through walls and ceilings to escape even the fastest specs.

I dread the day where ZoS gives in to the whining and actually gives them a burst heal. It already is one of the hardest classes to take out when they use everything they have. Yet even so, something is off about magblades and I just don't know what it is. They have superior survival and mobility and also good burst. Still they are not the threat they should be. They may be indomitable if they want, but also not very dangerous.

I would be very careful giving a class with so much tankiness more damage though. I feel like any magicka class, they suffer from rididculously slow projectile speeds and that dodge evasion lasts for way too long and from various hard counter skills like ball of lightning, wings and shimmering shield as well as the extra ranged block mitigation from sword and board.

Anyway. If any survivability or tankiness is given to them on top of what they already have, I sincerely hope they remove the ability to phase through walls and objects with shade or it just gets ridiculous.

The problem with magblade is that all your abilities are projectiles. This is unlike magSorc (most similar to magblade) who at least get haunting curse, and endless fury.

When all your abilities are projectiles, there is very little you can do against:
1) DK with wings
2) Warden with shimmering
3) Sorcs with bolt escape morph
4) Cloak (well you can still use mark but its super nerfed now)
5) Dodge rolls

As a magblade even if you have great abilities on paper, you cannot punish the enemy and finish them off when they f up like you can with say stam warden with spin2win, or sorcs with curse and fury.

Unless they address this, magblade will never be a dominant class with or without a burst heal.

It is a huge problem indeed and I also find it questionable that Mass Hysteria is the only stun in the game that has NO additionall effects. Even Mesmerize does something extra.

Sorcerer suffers just the same as Nightblade in the projectile regard though. Mage's Fury has a long "travel time" as well and gets dodged just the same. So it is a semi projectile. I can get behind adding such absurd hard counters against all ranged (and thus, most magicka specs) to make it less comfortable for ranged fighters. But why do we suffer in melee as well? Why are there minimum travel times and why do these hard counter abilities still work when someone is forced in melee range. And don't forget the longer animations compared to melee abilities. See how quickly eviscerate or surprise attack performs and how slow your arrow or crystal fragment is before it even happens.

I feel heavily punished for not using a melee playstyle, for there are so many stupid counters to make it hard for any ranged spec. Not only do they have less damage and more expensive abilities, but also abilities that neutralize them completely.

Shardaxx

I saw a magblade on YT and it looked boss, was thinking of changing to one. Are they rubbish or something?

Beffagorn

@ OP Looking at all the *** going on in BGs and the state of No-CP, i wouldn't use it as a basis to formulate any balance ideas, currently. It's proc set meta malacath bogalooo atm.

Magblades in CP pvp seem to be doing very well. They got good damage, good utility, good mobility and either great survivability from Dark Cloak or even better mobility/escape via Shadowy Disguise.

They're also doing very well in pve. Even as pure DDs they bring great utility and robust offheals. The only class i'd rather have than a magblade for vet dlc dungeons is a Magplar.

The class suffers a lot from bad reputation and a very low player count, especially good players. I've seen a few in IC (before and during the event) and the vast majority of them have no idea of what they're doing. Then there's very rare and actually good magblade that goes around on a killing rampage around the district.

Dracane

Beffagorn wrote: »

@ OP Looking at all the *** going on in BGs and the state of No-CP, i wouldn't use it as a basis to formulate any balance ideas, currently. It's proc set meta malacath bogalooo atm.

Magblades in CP pvp seem to be doing very well. They got good damage, good utility, good mobility and either great survivability from Dark Cloak or even better mobility/escape via Shadowy Disguise.

They're also doing very well in pve. Even as pure DDs they bring great utility and robust offheals. The only class i'd rather have than a magblade for vet dlc dungeons is a Magplar.

The class suffers a lot from bad reputation and a very low player count, especially good players. I've seen a few in IC (before and during the event) and the vast majority of them have no idea of what they're doing. Then there's very rare and actually good magblade that goes around on a killing rampage around the district.

Exactly that. Magicka Nightblade always had a good skill ceiling. Quite useless in the hands of a fool, but supreme in the hands of someone capable. Same is true for Stamina Nightblades. 90% of them I just sweap away easily. But those few good ones are indomitable nightmares with endless damage, sustain and mobility.

While I know what this class is capable of and know they do not need any buffs if played well, it's also not right to balance everything around the top players of each class. If the average player does not do well with them, something needs to be done .

Wing

interesting enough magblade can be played incredibly similar to magsorc with minor tweaks in style.

impale is comparable to endless fury, grim focus does more then frags.

fit in the same destro skills magsorc does (or class skills as i feel mark target is better) and learn to cloak and switch teleport instead of streaking with hardened ward.

magblade still has the niche of best bomber, and stam NB is still incredibly strong.

the class even has more build options available to it because of crutching on cloak.

just because some players might not be good or might have a hard time does not make it the fault of the class.


EDIT: i saw someone complain about DK wings.

that has not been a valid complaint in years, no DK of any spec slots wings anymore, suggesting such only hurts your argument.