We need to talk about Eternal Vigor

raistin87

Ok, I feel like I am pointing out the obvious, but this set is overloaded.

A way to evaluate set strength is to calculate how many 1 piece bonuses the 5 piece bonus represents. Usually, it is between 2-3 for reasonable sets (Alfiq, Necro) and 3.5-4 for really good sets (Shackle, NMA). Looking at Eternal Vigor, the number is somewhere between 6 and 9, depending on how weight you give to hp regen.

The combination of i) built-in crit resitance that allowed for going 7x well-fitted and ii) Eternal Vigor result directly into the current iteration of tank meta (lets call it Eternal ***) that combine stacking hp regen with dodge roll.

MartiniDaniels

Yes, but it has bad 2-4 bonuses, so while overloaded it has it's downsides. Torc of conal constancy much better imo, so eternal vigor is just a poor man's torc for those who don't have Greymoor.

Lughlongarm

1 piece bonuses to 5 pieces bonus ratio never gives the full picture.

For example - Mother's sorrow only 2.3 ratio and yet one of the hardest metas in PVE.
Endurance set (3 items set) 6.4 ratio barley sees any game-play.


Eternal Vigor could be compared to Amber Plasm as a sustain set - (6.4 ratio) good set for sure but definitely not a meta set.

As a defensive set it Could also be compared to sets like

Mark of the Pariah - up to 7.4 ratio
Orgnum's Scales - 10.5 ratio under 60%.

I wouldn't call any of the sets above sets "OP".

So sure, you can say this set is both(sustain and defense) but by the same logic it is also none.
Let me explain - When you use Eternal Vigor as a value set for a well-rounded PVP setup, it will probably be your only sustain source for gear as you already commit a full body set with sustain bonuses only. In a real combat situation, you lose tons of regen ticks due to dropping under 50% for 1-2 sec and if you are caught with low hp and with low resources at the same time, the health regen will not save you.

So sure, this set is indeed very strong and very loaded but it actually harder to build around it than people may think. In a world without "malacath's band of brutality" I don't think this set would have seen much play.

artal

No, we need to talk about reverting 20% heal nerf and than we can talk about that set. There were plenty of builds that werent owerhealing last patch so this solution was very poorly fix for healing problem.
Deal with healing in smart way before you take any sort of "crutch" away

OBJnoob

I use this set on a stamsorc and I can agree it's overloaded. Considering it's a sustain set not a defensive or offensive set I'm not sure how important it is whether or not it's overloaded. Personally I love the recoveries... personally I'm not sure how it's much different at all from the Willows Path crafted set that nobody uses. Most people tell me "aww it's not that good, you should be running two offensive sets this patch."

So. I dunno. Sorcs can make good use of those recovery bonuses. It isn't even the stam regen that's so amazing it's the mag regen honestly. And everybody (including me,) sees it as a downside that when you 'need it most' the regen might turn off and become an arguably not super helpful health recovery.

Buuut depending on what toon you're on I just don't find that ever matters much. Cuz on my stamsorc when I get smacked hard enough to drop my health it's probably because I got cc'd. Why? I dunno it just tends to be. So my normal manuevering after that is to hope I have my dots and buffs up already (crit surge healing ftw), roll dodge at least once, and probably dark deal one good time while I have immunity. This normally gets me back to 51% health.

The other character I play frequently is a stamDK. I haven't tried Eternal Vigor on him yet but I think it'll probably work very well also. Your health drops below half but you surely have a D-leap around the corner soon-- free heal and resource return-- you probably didn't notice your recovery being low for 6 seconds.

And if you find yourself under 50% health and under 50% rss with no potion and no ultimate... well then obviously you're dead and there's no point discussing why. lol.

Chrlynsch

Complaining about a sustain set, what is your enemy going to do, bleed on you? This patch, ever set that someone is wearing that isn't a proc set is a win.

katorga

EV is Amberplasm that a stam or mag build can use: 1400 health and 330ish stam/mag regen.

Either way lots of good "overloaded" sets these days. Balorgh's being the main one. It is the new Bloodspawn. I expect it to be nerfed into oblivion next patch - either the damage or the penetration being removed. So enjoy while you can.

SRASinister

Yeah seriously, you don't even need two damage sets this patch really since you can just run Balorghs for the pen which would allow to me run sugar skulls again and change my mundus/enchants on some classes.

IAmIcehouse

Lughlongarm wrote: »

1 piece bonuses to 5 pieces bonus ratio never gives the full picture.

For example - Mother's sorrow only 2.3 ratio and yet one of the hardest metas in PVE.
Endurance set (3 items set) 6.4 ratio barley sees any game-play.


Eternal Vigor could be compared to Amber Plasm as a sustain set - (6.4 ratio) good set for sure but definitely not a meta set.

As a defensive set it Could also be compared to sets like

Mark of the Pariah - up to 7.4 ratio
Orgnum's Scales - 10.5 ratio under 60%.

I wouldn't call any of the sets above sets "OP".

So sure, you can say this set is both(sustain and defense) but by the same logic it is also none.
Let me explain - When you use Eternal Vigor as a value set for a well-rounded PVP setup, it will probably be your only sustain source for gear as you already commit a full body set with sustain bonuses only. In a real combat situation, you lose tons of regen ticks due to dropping under 50% for 1-2 sec and if you are caught with low hp and with low resources at the same time, the health regen will not save you.

So sure, this set is indeed very strong and very loaded but it actually harder to build around it than people may think. In a world without "malacath's band of brutality" I don't think this set would have seen much play.

Eternal Vigor is one of the most broken sets in PvP. I shamelessly run it on every stam toon, medium and heavy.

The major problem with it is that you can sustain in heavy armor as well as you can in medium armor. And instead of running two (infused) prismatic jewels (sacrificing 550WD) you can get better sustain from EV-5 piece.

In PVP, you need to build some sort of sustain, and it used to be often thrown on jewels. Now, replace jewels with WD again and throw on EV. You gain 140 resource recovery from EV (over two jewels) and then also have 550 WD from your jewels, which replaces your old 5 piece. That's such an insane trade.

EV needs to be brought down to ~250, stam +250 mag recovery. And honestly, would still probably be BIS on so many builds.

It kills build diversity, because it's just so strong, if you are min-maxing, away from proc sets, you have to run this set.

Waffennacht

Its not OP. Not at all.

Its on par with proc sets.

Example: people would claim Spriggan to be OP if it gave approx 9k penetration, however it wouldnt up your damage beyond that of way of fire.

Essentially most stat based sets are 33% below a proc set.

So a comparable proc set would be... EG I suppose...and it gives 1100 per sec of stam or mag (2200 recovery equivalent) add up EV numbers and lookie they seem pretty on par 674 +1100 is 1874.

Of course there's variables such as 25% on EG or the below/above health on EV but seems on par

IAmIcehouse

Waffennacht wrote: »

Its not OP. Not at all.

Its on par with proc sets.

Example: people would claim Spriggan to be OP if it gave approx 9k penetration, however it wouldnt up your damage beyond that of way of fire.

Essentially most stat based sets are 33% below a proc set.

So a comparable proc set would be... EG I suppose...and it gives 1100 per sec of stam or mag (2200 recovery equivalent) add up EV numbers and lookie they seem pretty on par 674 +1100 is 1874.

Of course there's variables such as 25% on EG or the below/above health on EV but seems on par

You can't compare resource values EV to EG. You could not get a stam proc or mag proc in any given fight.

And I'm not sure where those numbers are coming from, but you get if you get a proc ON cool down, you get 550 resource for 6s per 10s. That is 666 essential recovery assuming you get stam/mag return, and again, on cool down. (Not likely).

Compare that to EV 5 piece where it's always 674 return PLUS 1400 max HP And that resource return is guaranteed to be a resource you need as you can build around it. That is further amplified by medium armor passives if you run medium, or sorc passives, or nb passives, or even tri pots/momentum giving endurance/intellect (this is only to compare it to EG, which really doesn't even make sense in the first place).

You can't rely on a 25% chance to get a 33% chance of getting the resource you need. Also, we've never compared monster sets to 5 piece sets. They've never been into be same discussion.

Out of all the stat based sets in the game, EV out-performs literally all of them.

relentless_turnip

The difference is whether the fifth bonus is an "if" i.e. does it give you the stats under a condition. Although eternal vigor's "ifs" are both great, this is how I believe they rate a sets overall power.

I really don't mind eternal vigor anyway, it does give a lot, but at least it gives players the power to do active damage. As opposed to the numerous sets that give player all of their damage so they can stack mitigation and health and afk their way to victory. Sets that play the game for you are my biggest gripe ATM.

Besides that it's difficult to build a medium or light build with a mythic and having it active on both bars... As it means you need to use it weapons for any of the "decent" mythics.

Sorbin

I would typically agree that EV is overloaded, but considering the overall state of the meta I think it's fine. It's one of the very few sets that's viable if you're looking to run a stat build instead of relying on procs. If you nerf EV in isolation, it's basically just going to be Crimson all the way thereafter.

Ragnaroek93

Or give alternatives to light and medium armor. Eternal Vigor should be double bared, therefore it needs to be strong. The only offensive stat set which feels strong offensive wise right now is Yandirs imo and that's a trial set and shouldn't be more relevant in PvP than PvP sets imo.

NinchiTV

At this point using EV is over sustain for cp pvp (non cp pretty viable) but in cp you can easily get 2k recov just from pots, mundas and battle buff alone. Also, who complains about sustain sets right now? Like really?

Waffennacht

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Its not OP. Not at all.

Its on par with proc sets.

Example: people would claim Spriggan to be OP if it gave approx 9k penetration, however it wouldnt up your damage beyond that of way of fire.

Essentially most stat based sets are 33% below a proc set.

So a comparable proc set would be... EG I suppose...and it gives 1100 per sec of stam or mag (2200 recovery equivalent) add up EV numbers and lookie they seem pretty on par 674 +1100 is 1874.

Of course there's variables such as 25% on EG or the below/above health on EV but seems on par

You can't compare resource values EV to EG. You could not get a stam proc or mag proc in any given fight.

And I'm not sure where those numbers are coming from, but you get if you get a proc ON cool down, you get 550 resource for 6s per 10s. That is 666 essential recovery assuming you get stam/mag return, and again, on cool down. (Not likely).

Compare that to EV 5 piece where it's always 674 return PLUS 1400 max HP And that resource return is guaranteed to be a resource you need as you can build around it. That is further amplified by medium armor passives if you run medium, or sorc passives, or nb passives, or even tri pots/momentum giving endurance/intellect (this is only to compare it to EG, which really doesn't even make sense in the first place).

You can't rely on a 25% chance to get a 33% chance of getting the resource you need. Also, we've never compared monster sets to 5 piece sets. They've never been into be same discussion.

Out of all the stat based sets in the game, EV out-performs literally all of them.

You get it per .5 sec as the tooltips reads FYI, and recovery is per 2 sec

A 25% on cool may as well up 100% uptime

Edit: almost all stat based sets are badly undertuned

Vizirith

OBJnoob wrote: »

I use this set on a stamsorc and I can agree it's overloaded. Considering it's a sustain set not a defensive or offensive set I'm not sure how important it is whether or not it's overloaded. Personally I love the recoveries... personally I'm not sure how it's much different at all from the Willows Path crafted set that nobody uses. Most people tell me "aww it's not that good, you should be running two offensive sets this patch."

So. I dunno. Sorcs can make good use of those recovery bonuses. It isn't even the stam regen that's so amazing it's the mag regen honestly. And everybody (including me,) sees it as a downside that when you 'need it most' the regen might turn off and become an arguably not super helpful health recovery.

Buuut depending on what toon you're on I just don't find that ever matters much. Cuz on my stamsorc when I get smacked hard enough to drop my health it's probably because I got cc'd. Why? I dunno it just tends to be. So my normal manuevering after that is to hope I have my dots and buffs up already (crit surge healing ftw), roll dodge at least once, and probably dark deal one good time while I have immunity. This normally gets me back to 51% health.

The other character I play frequently is a stamDK. I haven't tried Eternal Vigor on him yet but I think it'll probably work very well also. Your health drops below half but you surely have a D-leap around the corner soon-- free heal and resource return-- you probably didn't notice your recovery being low for 6 seconds.

And if you find yourself under 50% health and under 50% rss with no potion and no ultimate... well then obviously you're dead and there's no point discussing why. lol.

While I think it is pretty good on a stamsorc, especially in no-cp, I think it is wasted potential in cp. It needs to be double-barred to be of any use. Torc and engine guardian is far superior. Any more regen over dmg is a waste.

MagSorc: Good but regen with dark deal/conversion and engine guardian meta is enough
MagDK: Plenty of time spent blocking rendering the stam gen less useful
Magcro: Could use all the help regardless
Magblade: no
Magplar: Good, but better sets exist
Magden: Pretty good but better sets exist
StamSorc: Good but too much damage potential lost
StamDK: Good, crutches on malacath to make up for damage potential lost
Stamblade: Could be decent but too much damage potential lost
Stamplar: Good
Stamcro: Not much by the way of mag skills so not useful
Stamden: Good what with arctic frost

Urzigurumash

I'm gonna go with buff Willow's Path, Amberplasm, Senchal Defender, Stonekeeper, Grundwulf, Trappings, Lich, etc., whatever so that EV isn't such a standout.

and/or buff the sustain passives of Bosmer, Redguard, Argonian, and Khajiit, which should've been done given the buffs to the Serpent and Atronach stones.

idk

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Yes, but it has bad 2-4 bonuses, so while overloaded it has it's downsides. Torc of conal constancy much better imo, so eternal vigor is just a poor man's torc for those who don't have Greymoor.

I agree but I would also add that it is really overloaded in a weak way.

Wing

NinchiTV wrote: »

At this point using EV is over sustain for cp pvp (non cp pretty viable) but in cp you can easily get 2k recov just from pots, mundas and battle buff alone. Also, who complains about sustain sets right now? Like really?

kind of agree, would love it if people rocked a sustain set over a proc set and actually fought using skills, what a game that would be.

WreckfulAbandon

Wing wrote: »

NinchiTV wrote: »

At this point using EV is over sustain for cp pvp (non cp pretty viable) but in cp you can easily get 2k recov just from pots, mundas and battle buff alone. Also, who complains about sustain sets right now? Like really?

kind of agree, would love it if people rocked a sustain set over a proc set and actually fought using skills, what a game that would be.

Until it gets nerfed like NMA "because everyone uses it," meanwhile Malacath proc meta totally fine, nothing to see here..

ccfeeling

Cant believe asking a sustain set nerf LOL

Ariades_swe

It's very good on certain classes.
I like it on my stamdk for fossilize and cauterize spam and on my warden for arctic blast spam.
Wouldn't use it my stamcro.

fred4

I hate it when people complain about anything and everything that actually works. Eternal Vigor won't kill anyone. It's a heavy set, limiting medium armor player's companion set choices. It's 2 / 3 / 4 bonuses are merely OK.

I would not run this on every stam toon. In fact, I built my stam DK deliberately avoiding mag sustain requirements and it became stronger for it. Yes, building for Fossilize and other mag skills is nice, but wearing a set like Eternal Vigor to do so invariably compromises your damage.

Stamsorc is the exception, but like someone pointed out, stamsorc is also a good candidate for the Torc. Any double-barred set, like Eternal Vigor, is a disadvantage nowadays, because you can't make a 2x 5-piece set + monster + mythic build with those. Play a stamsorc - and I admit I love the playstyle right now - and you're not playing a meta class. Even with the latest changes other classes have better burst options and DK, frankly, has better healing. I'm talking about Cauterize and/or Fragmented Shield. Stamsorc healing is comparatively inconsistent. If you build your stamsorc with Rally, maybe you're OK. If you get your Major Brutality from Crit Surge and maybe you want to run dual-wield, then what? I find Crit Surge and Resolving Vigor alone leaves gaps in your healing when you're not on the attack, for example when you're being sniped. Yes Eternal Vigor is great on stamsorc, but building for health regen is also just a way for that class to gain parity with, say, DK healing and it's one of the few types of build where I feel dual-wield is subsequently viable. Yet stamsorcs still aren't that competitive. Let it go, man, let it go.

Things look a bit different on the magicka side. Anyone who doesn't like playing vampire (for Mist Form) will tell you that stamina regen is a problem. Magsorc and NB are special cases on account of their escape tools. Other classes? I make no apologies: I currently run Amber Plasm AND Eternal Vigor AND the stamina rune AND Sugar Skulls on my non-vampire magplar. It's the only thing that actually makes the class feel fun to play and somewhat competitive in open world for me.

The last thing I'll say is that health regen and the so-called proc meta go hand-in-hand. Health regen, aside from Troll King, was historically undervalued in PvP, so ZOS buffed it to levels where people will actually build for it. This is good. Instead of slapping on just that one monster set, you have to combine different sources, including food, and health regen becomes viable as a main source of healing (but just one). It's also a good antidote to being dotted up with poison procs. Health regen is a (or the) counter to those procs, which basically just means the game is working as intended.

Xiomaro

Procs definitely overshadow stat sets. That's a problem. But Eternal Vigor is one of the strongest stat sets in the game. Yes, it's a sustain set but that sustain is so strong that you can forgo sustain from any other source. That means you can run max stat food, infused wd/sd jewellery and so on. On some builds that makes a bigger difference than any other option. Plus the health regen kicking in when you're low gives you a pretty sizeable boost in tankiness.

Yes, Torc can give you similar sustain but it doesn't give you health regen like EV does. And someone mentioned EV working better on some classes than others? I would say Torc is even more dependent on class.

I'm not sure I would say this set should be on the chopping block. But in a proc meta, EV is one of the few stat sets that still finds its way into a lot of builds in no CP, including mine. It actually works really well as part of a proc build because it's so stat dense.

katorga

One thing always ends up being the best, even if by just a tiny amount.

It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it.

FYI the change to major minor buffs 40/20% regen buff is what supercharged these sets.

IAmIcehouse

Xiomaro wrote: »

Procs definitely overshadow stat sets. That's a problem. But Eternal Vigor is one of the strongest stat sets in the game. Yes, it's a sustain set but that sustain is so strong that you can forgo sustain from any other source. That means you can run max stat food, infused wd/sd jewellery and so on. On some builds that makes a bigger difference than any other option. Plus the health regen kicking in when you're low gives you a pretty sizeable boost in tankiness.

Yes, Torc can give you similar sustain but it doesn't give you health regen like EV does. And someone mentioned EV working better on some classes than others? I would say Torc is even more dependent on class.

I'm not sure I would say this set should be on the chopping block. But in a proc meta, EV is one of the few stat sets that still finds its way into a lot of builds in no CP, including mine. It actually works really well as part of a proc build because it's so stat dense.

Exactly. The argument that it doesn't kill somebody is nonsense, because by running such a stat heavy set for sustain, you don't need to build any other sustain. And allows you to stack damaging.

Each patch note, ZOS mentions that they are tuning sets by 50 max mag to bring it in-line with their "set bonus efficiency standard".

How the hell does EV meet this "standard'? I run it on all of my stam toons, because it's far and away the best stat-based set in the game. It's just not healthy for build-diversity. EV is essentially a must-wear for non-proc builds.

If anyone thinks EV (which it is not) is balanced then every other sustain set needs a serious buff as well as the glyphs.

ealdwin

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Yes, but it has bad 2-4 bonuses, so while overloaded it has it's downsides. Torc of conal constancy much better imo, so eternal vigor is just a poor man's torc for those who don't have Greymoor.

Isn't Eternal Vigor found in Western Skyrim?

IAmIcehouse

ealdwin wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Yes, but it has bad 2-4 bonuses, so while overloaded it has it's downsides. Torc of conal constancy much better imo, so eternal vigor is just a poor man's torc for those who don't have Greymoor.

Isn't Eternal Vigor found in Western Skyrim?

You can buy it off traders. It's also far better than torc. Torc is nice

Waffennacht

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Xiomaro wrote: »

Procs definitely overshadow stat sets. That's a problem. But Eternal Vigor is one of the strongest stat sets in the game. Yes, it's a sustain set but that sustain is so strong that you can forgo sustain from any other source. That means you can run max stat food, infused wd/sd jewellery and so on. On some builds that makes a bigger difference than any other option. Plus the health regen kicking in when you're low gives you a pretty sizeable boost in tankiness.

Yes, Torc can give you similar sustain but it doesn't give you health regen like EV does. And someone mentioned EV working better on some classes than others? I would say Torc is even more dependent on class.

I'm not sure I would say this set should be on the chopping block. But in a proc meta, EV is one of the few stat sets that still finds its way into a lot of builds in no CP, including mine. It actually works really well as part of a proc build because it's so stat dense.

Exactly. The argument that it doesn't kill somebody is nonsense, because by running such a stat heavy set for sustain, you don't need to build any other sustain. And allows you to stack damaging.

Each patch note, ZOS mentions that they are tuning sets by 50 max mag to bring it in-line with their "set bonus efficiency standard".

How the hell does EV meet this "standard'? I run it on all of my stam toons, because it's far and away the best stat-based set in the game. It's just not healthy for build-diversity. EV is essentially a must-wear for non-proc builds.

If anyone thinks EV (which it is not) is balanced then every other sustain set needs a serious buff as well as the glyphs.

Imagine if you had as many stat based sets lke EV to choose from as you do Proc sets

Dont you think you wouldn't be pigeonholed into EV and dont you think you'd have a more diverse PvP without losing much at all in terms of PvP performance?

Wing

Waffennacht wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Xiomaro wrote: »

Procs definitely overshadow stat sets. That's a problem. But Eternal Vigor is one of the strongest stat sets in the game. Yes, it's a sustain set but that sustain is so strong that you can forgo sustain from any other source. That means you can run max stat food, infused wd/sd jewellery and so on. On some builds that makes a bigger difference than any other option. Plus the health regen kicking in when you're low gives you a pretty sizeable boost in tankiness.

Yes, Torc can give you similar sustain but it doesn't give you health regen like EV does. And someone mentioned EV working better on some classes than others? I would say Torc is even more dependent on class.

I'm not sure I would say this set should be on the chopping block. But in a proc meta, EV is one of the few stat sets that still finds its way into a lot of builds in no CP, including mine. It actually works really well as part of a proc build because it's so stat dense.

Exactly. The argument that it doesn't kill somebody is nonsense, because by running such a stat heavy set for sustain, you don't need to build any other sustain. And allows you to stack damaging.

Each patch note, ZOS mentions that they are tuning sets by 50 max mag to bring it in-line with their "set bonus efficiency standard".

How the hell does EV meet this "standard'? I run it on all of my stam toons, because it's far and away the best stat-based set in the game. It's just not healthy for build-diversity. EV is essentially a must-wear for non-proc builds.

If anyone thinks EV (which it is not) is balanced then every other sustain set needs a serious buff as well as the glyphs.

Imagine if you had as many stat based sets lke EV to choose from as you do Proc sets

Dont you think you wouldn't be pigeonholed into EV and dont you think you'd have a more diverse PvP without losing much at all in terms of PvP performance?

want a stam amber plasm real bad.