You're not taking into consideration the fact that stam builds are currently capable of 5.5k-6k+ weapon damage, their skills are cheaper (allowing them to run with less regen & more damage glyphs) and many don't need to specifically build up magicka the way all mag toons have to build up stamina. All of these things contribute to better overall healing with vigor.
The last time I compared the two, while the base tooltips might be the same, in practice Vigor does about the same amount of healing but over a shorter period of time. I'd take Vigor as it is right now in a heartbeat over Rapid Regen.
You're not taking into consideration the fact that stam builds are currently capable of 5.5k-6k+ weapon damage, their skills are cheaper (allowing them to run with less regen & more damage glyphs) and many don't need to specifically build up magicka the way all mag toons have to build up stamina. All of these things contribute to better overall healing with vigor.
The last time I compared the two, while the base tooltips might be the same, in practice Vigor does about the same amount of healing but over a shorter period of time. I'd take Vigor as it is right now in a heartbeat over Rapid Regen.
Penetration is irrelevant to healing, weapon damage isn't — that's the only reason I mentioned that disparity.magicka builds have higher pen (by 4k on average)
The only class that gets shafted like that is stam sorc, and even then it's a lot more than "a morph or two." You're also ignoring the fact that stam classes get 4 offensive weapon skill lines, compared to magicka's one — that's 24 skills vs 6.access to more skills (all class skills compared to a morph or two)
And despite that fact, my magblade still has worse healing than any stam toon. I also have to use a worthless resto staff on my back bar just to get an unreliable burst heal that likely as not will target someone else.an entire weapon line devoted to healing in resto staff (stam has no healing weapon skill line) and access to more numerous amounts and kinds of healing, as well as shield stacking.
RAT is great, but stam mobility is still better than mag in nearly every (if not every) case. I really miss that permanent 21% movement speed boost.and with things added like race against time, there not even less mobile.
Yes, and Vigor is great. I wish there was something like it available for mag toons. Imagine if you had to swap out your back bar weapon for a resto staff just to get Vigor — no Bow or DW. It's awful.all stam builds have vigor, all of them, in some cases its the only stamina heal they have access to, there is NOTHING else, thats CRAP skill design.
I totally agree, the cost to break free and roll dodge should be reduced by 15% for mag toons.
Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »You forgot the part where rapid regen requires you to run a resto staff whereas vigor can be used on any build.
MashmalloMan wrote: »Resolving Vigor:
No one who uses this is really complaining about it because it's still great despite being slightly under budget in comparison to Rapid Regen, it's a dedicated self heal and it's not attached to a weapon, making it easy enough to slot for any stamina player. The reverse argument is that Magicka classes typically have more in class healing options available. That being said, there should be no reason why it costs 30% more than it should or last less time than Rapid Regen.
MashmalloMan wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »You forgot the part where rapid regen requires you to run a resto staff whereas vigor can be used on any build.
Me? First of all, thats now how skills are designed when you use standards.
Secondly, I mentioned it in the OP, even though thats true, it doesn't mean the skill shouldn't follow the same rules.MashmalloMan wrote: »Resolving Vigor:
No one who uses this is really complaining about it because it's still great despite being slightly under budget in comparison to Rapid Regen, it's a dedicated self heal and it's not attached to a weapon, making it easy enough to slot for any stamina player. The reverse argument is that Magicka classes typically have more in class healing options available. That being said, there should be no reason why it costs 30% more than it should or last less time than Rapid Regen.
I'm not sure why you felt the need to include me in that. For all your condescension about people not reading your post, you didn't seem to do a very good job of reading mine.⬇️MashmalloMan wrote: »@Wing and @Langeston . My post is not about mag vs stam. I already mentioned the pro's/con's of both, how Vigor is more accepted and how they could both be updated for the better. Any argument related to stam vs mag is unrelated to the topic and will never end because people have their own subjective opinions.
In any case, my post wasn't meant to be "stam vs mag," I was simply pointing out some of the differences between them that make Vigor competitive, and in my opinion superior.
Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »You forgot the part where rapid regen requires you to run a resto staff whereas vigor can be used on any build.
Me? First of all, thats now how skills are designed when you use standards.
Secondly, I mentioned it in the OP, even though thats true, it doesn't mean the skill shouldn't follow the same rules.MashmalloMan wrote: »Resolving Vigor:
No one who uses this is really complaining about it because it's still great despite being slightly under budget in comparison to Rapid Regen, it's a dedicated self heal and it's not attached to a weapon, making it easy enough to slot for any stamina player. The reverse argument is that Magicka classes typically have more in class healing options available. That being said, there should be no reason why it costs 30% more than it should or last less time than Rapid Regen.
It absolutely should be accounted for, opportunity cost is a thing. With vigor you can still be fully offensive and not be shoehorned into using a completely defensive weapon
Vigor: Adhered this ability to our AoE HoT standards.
- Increased the duration to 8 seconds from 5 seconds, but decreased the tick frequency to 2 seconds from 1 second.
- Increased the healing per tick by approximately 33%.
- Reduced the cost to 2984 from 3511.
- Resolving Vigor (morph): This morph doubles the frequency, halves the duration, and increases the healing per tick by approximately 43%, but now only targets your character.
- Echoing Vigor (morph): This morph continues to increase the radius, but also increases the duration per rank, up to 10 seconds at rank IV, allowing for 1 additional heal tick. It also no longer ranks up in 1.1% healing per rank.
I'm not sure why you felt the need to include me in that. For all your condescension about people not reading your post, you didn't seem to do a very good job of reading mine.⬇️MashmalloMan wrote: »@Wing and @Langeston . My post is not about mag vs stam. I already mentioned the pro's/con's of both, how Vigor is more accepted and how they could both be updated for the better. Any argument related to stam vs mag is unrelated to the topic and will never end because people have their own subjective opinions.In any case, my post wasn't meant to be "stam vs mag," I was simply pointing out some of the differences between them that make Vigor competitive, and in my opinion superior.
And as I said earlier: I agree that ZOS is terrible at following it's own rules — but as it stands right now, Vigor is in a good place relative to Regen and any inconsistency between the two is more than made up for by the passives available to stam toons. Reducing the cost or upping the duration (unless the base healing remains the same) will result in an unnecessary buff to specs that are already outperforming their magicka counterparts.
OrphanHelgen wrote: »It started way back when people complained about stam vs mag, and I guess devs are tired of people complaining that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, so they just made everything equal and didn't give a *** about identity and unique playstyles.
MashmalloMan wrote: »I totally agree, the cost to break free and roll dodge should be reduced by 15% for mag toons.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but despite it seeming somewhat sarcastic given the fact that the -15% stamina cost rule only applies to active abilities, I do feel like Light Armor should reduce break free cost along with the snare/sprint reduction passive. Roll dodging cost reduction should remain attached to Medium armor. I think that would help Magicka classes a lot in pvp, but thats another topic entirely.
MashmalloMan wrote: »[...] ZOS aims to balance core skills from a spreadsheet, thats the point of using standards, to make their lives easier. Love it or hate it, balancing skills based on context of an armor weight or someones potential build isn't how they do things anymore. Resolving Vigor doesn't adhear to the standards they claim to support.
I think that "imagine" could be extended a bit:Yes, and Vigor is great. I wish there was something like it available for mag toons. Imagine if you had to swap out your back bar weapon for a resto staff just to get Vigor — no Bow or DW. It's awful.
Thank you for the apology. For my part, I apologise if I came off a bit snitty.MashmalloMan wrote: »I'm not sure why you felt the need to include me in that. For all your condescension about people not reading your post, you didn't seem to do a very good job of reading mine.⬇️MashmalloMan wrote: »@Wing and @Langeston . My post is not about mag vs stam. I already mentioned the pro's/con's of both, how Vigor is more accepted and how they could both be updated for the better. Any argument related to stam vs mag is unrelated to the topic and will never end because people have their own subjective opinions.In any case, my post wasn't meant to be "stam vs mag," I was simply pointing out some of the differences between them that make Vigor competitive, and in my opinion superior.
And as I said earlier: I agree that ZOS is terrible at following it's own rules — but as it stands right now, Vigor is in a good place relative to Regen and any inconsistency between the two is more than made up for by the passives available to stam toons. Reducing the cost or upping the duration (unless the base healing remains the same) will result in an unnecessary buff to specs that are already outperforming their magicka counterparts.
Yeah, you're right, I'm sorry about that. I did realize part way through writing my comment that it may seem like it was evenly made for both of you, but it was mainly directed at @Wing to be honest. It just would of been too complicated to seperate everything, they clearly take a strong stance in defending the stamina side of the equation as if they're worse off which I don't think is the case. I think there is endless arguments to be made for both sides which is why it will end up leading nowhere. It's very subjective.
As you stated in another comment, the only thing ZOS is consistent about, is being inconsistent. It would literally take me an afternoon to analyze every abilities cost, duration and power and equalize them. It only gets muddy when you start considering things like cast times and channels, which is apparently why Flurry, Jabs and Dizzy Swing are by far the strongest spammables, those skills take a little bit more finnese to balance.
Something like Vigor, Regen and Springs seems very clear cut to me. If Magicka was behind or Stamina was farther ahead, there is other ways to bring them in line, rather than breaking their own rules without stating so. If you can view my most recent comment above, you'll see that as of Update 23, ZOS commented that Vigor was rebalanced to match the supposed standards at the time, so it had nothing to do with Medium armor builds, but everything to do with an oversight, because the standard they used is no longer applicable today.
Edit: Another skill that still follows the 8s duration rule is Ring of Preservation. This should also be 10s.
You're not taking into consideration the fact that stam builds are currently capable of 5.5k-6k+ weapon damage, their skills are cheaper (allowing them to run with less regen & more damage glyphs) and many don't need to specifically build up magicka the way all mag toons have to build up stamina. All of these things contribute to better overall healing with vigor.
The last time I compared the two, while the base tooltips might be the same, in practice Vigor does about the same amount of healing but over a shorter period of time. I'd take Vigor as it is right now in a heartbeat over Rapid Regen.
Great post. Can I also humbly request that Resolving Vigor not break stealth? It's a self buff / heal like Rally.
Make regen heal lowest health ally or yourself if you have lowest health. That would equalize the disparity between vigor and regen imo. Add whatever morphs you want, but that should be the base line here.