Maintenance for the week of March 25:
• [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – March 28, 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)

Skill Standards? Rapid Regen vs Resolving Vigor.

MashmalloMan
MashmalloMan
✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
While theory crafting, I noticed these abilities seem to follow the same "standards" while simultaneously ignoring some, which is why I think ZOS should get their "standards" straight and tweak these Morphs slightly. I think it's very obvious that these skills are are pretty much designed as the same ability at a core level. They have different characteristics, but they are both single target heal over times that last about 5s long.

Lets get one thing clear, "skill standards" are used to design the skill from their core level while morphs and passives should be used to further extend the uniqueness of skills. Easiest example: DK's Venomous Claw has the exact same cost and damage budget as Twin Slashes from DW. DK's passives are what make the skill cost 25% less, do 33% more dot damage, last 4s longer and of course, snare, provide +500 stamina return, etc..

It should be noted, all stamina skills have a specific base cost in mind that then gets reduced by -15%. If it's not handled through a passive like you can find in stamina weapons or the Fighters guild, it's applied directly to the base cost.

Lastly, the morph should add an extra effect beyond the standard, in this case, Venomous Claw is poison damage, applies the poisoned status effect and has increased damage over time the longer it lasts, while Blood Craze gives a HoT and Rending Slashes gives extra upfront damage with a snare, both morphs defined as bleeds.

Here are tooltips taken from eso-skillbook.com (As of Greymoor U26):
(I'm trusting the data placed on this website, I've found them to be very reliable, if they're wrong feel free to correct)
4MX595N.png

Healing:
Resolving Vigor says 1765 health over 4 seconds. This is equal to 5 ticks because it ticks on cast, at the 0s mark. 0, 1, 2, 3, 4.
  • 1765/5 = 353

Rapid Regeneration says 2118 health over 5 seconds. Same thing as above, but 6 ticks.
  • 2118/6 = 353

This is the clearest evidence that ZOS treated these abilities with the same core skill standards, they both heal the exact same amount per second.. except, Resolving Vigor lasts 4s instead of 5s which was actually only a recent nerf in 2019, it use to last 5s.

Cost:
Single target spammable cost standard = 2700. In ZOS's opinion, heals are treated as opposites to damage abilities. This is why Regen costs 2700 too.

This means, Resolving Vigor should cost 2295 (with -15%), not 2984.

So why would ZOS make Resolving Vigor cost 2984 to begin with? This is because it's adhearing to the AoE damage/healing standards that would of been used on the base skill, Vigor. 2984/0.85 = 3510. 3510 is the cost used in aoe damage skills like Caltrops, Volley, Whirlwind, etc.

This point shows that Resolving Vigor costs more than it should based on ZOS's clearly defined standards, it's simply an oversight. This actually seems to happen with a lot of skills in the game that change from single target to aoe or vice versa, the morphs only inherit the cost of the base skill. Soul Splitting Trap vs Consuming Trap. Radiating Regen vs Rapid Regen. I'm sure there's more.

Rapid Regeneration:
The biggest complaint about Rapid Regen is that it isn't a dedicated self heal like Resolving Vigor, you can cast it and unfortunately apply it to a random player in your group. It's both a gift and a curse. This can make it very unreliable. The benefit when comparing it to Resolving Vigor is that you get some passives associated with it. Again, that shouldn't dictate how the core functionality of a skill performs. A skill should not be weaker, because there is a passive available that makes it stronger. Thats bad design that I have seen ZOS move away from since they started creating skill standards. Same example as above. The DK passive for stronger dot/duration use to only help Claw/Breath MEET the typical 10s duration and damage of other dots effectively making the passive pointless. It didn't actually give DK anything unique.

Resolving Vigor:
No one who uses this is really complaining about it because it's still great despite being slightly under budget in comparison to Rapid Regen, it's a dedicated self heal and it's not attached to a weapon, making it easy enough to slot for any stamina player. The reverse argument is that Magicka classes typically have more in class healing options available. That being said, there should be no reason why it costs 30% more than it should or last less time than Rapid Regen.

What should change?
Properly tune both skills to follow the same standards, then provide a more unique approach to how the morphs help differ from each other.

Rapid Regeneration:
(Core Standards)
  • Self Heal
  • Costs 2700
  • Lasts 5s

(Unique Morph Effect Ideas)
  • Heal a second low health target for 50%
  • Provide Minor Intellect for 10s

Resolving Vigor:
(Core Standards)
  • Self Heal
  • Costs 2295 (with -15%)
  • Lasts 5s

(Unique Morph Effect Ideas)
  • Heal increases by 4% each second
  • Provide Minor Endurance for 10s

Those morph effects are just ideas, I'm not saying they're perfect or something they really need, the point is to make them different from each other. Feel free to make your own suggestion. Again, the point isn't to buff/nerf anything, my problem is with ZOS claiming to follow standards while continuously overlooking skills that don't follow these standards. When you have skills that are so similar in base function, it makes it very easy to question ZOS's methodology when balancing these skills.
Edited by MashmalloMan on June 27, 2020 9:55AM
PC Beta - 1900+ CP

Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • Langeston
    Langeston
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    You're not taking into consideration the fact that stam builds are currently capable of 5.5k-6k+ weapon damage, their skills are cheaper (allowing them to run with less regen & more damage glyphs) and many don't need to specifically build up magicka the way all mag toons have to build up stamina. All of these things contribute to better overall healing with vigor.

    The last time I compared the two, while the base tooltips might be the same, in practice Vigor does about the same amount of healing but over a shorter period of time. I'd take Vigor as it is right now in a heartbeat over Rapid Regen.
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Langeston wrote: »
    You're not taking into consideration the fact that stam builds are currently capable of 5.5k-6k+ weapon damage, their skills are cheaper (allowing them to run with less regen & more damage glyphs) and many don't need to specifically build up magicka the way all mag toons have to build up stamina. All of these things contribute to better overall healing with vigor.

    The last time I compared the two, while the base tooltips might be the same, in practice Vigor does about the same amount of healing but over a shorter period of time. I'd take Vigor as it is right now in a heartbeat over Rapid Regen.

    No, I did take that into consideration, I mentioned it in my post multiple times. Yes, context can be taken into account, stamina builds can stack higher weapon damage, but you can give counter arguments with how Magicka has more access to class based heals and shields, which then brings up the fact that Medium Armor has more roll dodging. It's really a never ending argument which is why I kept the topic on the lack of a defined parity between the design of both abilities cost and duration.

    The post isn't to say one is better or worse, the post is about ZOS's decision to use defined standards to design abilities from a core level, this being cost, duration, damage, healing, etc. I'm pointing out 2 that don't follow the same standards, yet are clearly from the same skill type.

    Look at this quote from the Harrowstorm Patch Notes U24:
    Many Damage over Time abilities, both single target and Area of Effect, have been re-standardized to follow similar behaviors to other ability types. Area of Effect DoTs will now be 33% weaker than a single target DoT counter-part and cost 30% more, just like direct damage AoEs vs single target ones.

    This quote actually highlights why I think they messed up Resolving Vigor. It has nothing to do with stamina having more weapon damage, but because it's a morph of an AoE HoT from the base skill, Vigor.

    Think about the cost. 2984 stamina. Reverse the built in -15% cost. 2984/0.85 = 3510.

    What other skills cost 3510 or 2984 (with -15%) in the game? Whirlwind, Fiery Breath, Caltrops, Impulse, Volley, Unstable Familiar, etc. I'd say 9/10 times, AoE damage abilities match that exact same cost. This is not an AoE HoT, so why does it cost as much as 1? We can speculate all day, maybe ZOS truely nerfed it intentionally, the only thing we know for certain, is they claim to want to apply skill standards to all skills in the game. They make it clear when something is a "rulebreaker" like when they set a standard for 4s of major expedition, yet allowed Warden's Wings to last 6s. They haven't mentioned anything regarding Vigor.

    Plus, if your point is true, that Resolving Vigor costs more and lasts a shorter amount of time because stamina builds can stack higher weapon damage then where does it stop? Why not make all stamina damage abilities weaker because they have +15% weapon damage. Thats flawed logic, ZOS aims to balance core skills from a spreadsheet, thats the point of using standards, to make their lives easier. Love it or hate it, balancing skills based on context of an armor weight or someones potential build isn't how they do things anymore. Resolving Vigor doesn't adhear to the standards they claim to support.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on June 27, 2020 9:37AM
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • Langeston
    Langeston
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    The only thing that ZOS is consistent in is it's inconsistency — on that we have no disagreement.

    My only point was that Vigor is already a better heal than Regen, and reducing the cost would only increase the disparity. Considering the fact that Stam classes already steamroll mag in nearly every case, this is an inconsistency that while irritating to my OCD, I consider to be acceptable. ZOS never should have painted itself into a corner with this standards nonsense in the first place — if game balance is the goal, just making sure numbers look pretty on a spreadsheet isn't gonna cut it.

    A more glaring inconsistency IMO is ZOS's justification for adding cast times and it's subsequent pummeling of Nightblades while leaving other classes & weapon skill lines untouched, but that's a whole other can of worms.
  • Fur_like_snow
    Fur_like_snow
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    So buff vigor? Okay sounds great.
  • Wing
    Wing
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Langeston wrote: »
    You're not taking into consideration the fact that stam builds are currently capable of 5.5k-6k+ weapon damage, their skills are cheaper (allowing them to run with less regen & more damage glyphs) and many don't need to specifically build up magicka the way all mag toons have to build up stamina. All of these things contribute to better overall healing with vigor.

    The last time I compared the two, while the base tooltips might be the same, in practice Vigor does about the same amount of healing but over a shorter period of time. I'd take Vigor as it is right now in a heartbeat over Rapid Regen.

    magicka builds have higher pen (by 4k on average) access to more skills (all class skills compared to a morph or two) an entire weapon line devoted to healing in resto staff (stam has no healing weapon skill line) and access to more numerous amounts and kinds of healing, as well as shield stacking.

    and with things added like race against time, there not even less mobile.

    all stam builds have vigor, all of them, in some cases its the only stamina heal they have access to, there is NOTHING else, thats CRAP skill design.
    Edited by Wing on June 27, 2020 5:51PM
    ESO player since beta.
    full time subscriber.
    PC NA
    ( ^_^ )

    You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods -Xenogears
    DK one trick
  • Oakmontowls_ESO
    Oakmontowls_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    You forgot the part where rapid regen requires you to run a resto staff whereas vigor can be used on any build.
  • Langeston
    Langeston
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wing wrote: »
    magicka builds have higher pen (by 4k on average)
    Penetration is irrelevant to healing, weapon damage isn't — that's the only reason I mentioned that disparity.

    Regardless, the light armor penetration passive amounts to amounts to ~7% & is completely worthless against percentage mitigation. Considering ZOS is handing out percentage mitigation like candy nowadays, high amounts of raw damage (possibly augmented by Stuhn's or Balorgh) is the way to go — and if you want raw damage, stam beats mag hands down. I remember you calling the new push for penetration "kind of a trap" in this thread, so you appear to already know this.
    Wing wrote: »
    access to more skills (all class skills compared to a morph or two)
    The only class that gets shafted like that is stam sorc, and even then it's a lot more than "a morph or two." You're also ignoring the fact that stam classes get 4 offensive weapon skill lines, compared to magicka's one — that's 24 skills vs 6.
    Wing wrote: »
    an entire weapon line devoted to healing in resto staff (stam has no healing weapon skill line) and access to more numerous amounts and kinds of healing, as well as shield stacking.
    And despite that fact, my magblade still has worse healing than any stam toon. I also have to use a worthless resto staff on my back bar just to get an unreliable burst heal that likely as not will target someone else.
    Wing wrote: »
    and with things added like race against time, there not even less mobile.
    RAT is great, but stam mobility is still better than mag in nearly every (if not every) case. I really miss that permanent 21% movement speed boost.
    Wing wrote: »
    all stam builds have vigor, all of them, in some cases its the only stamina heal they have access to, there is NOTHING else, thats CRAP skill design.
    Yes, and Vigor is great. I wish there was something like it available for mag toons. Imagine if you had to swap out your back bar weapon for a resto staff just to get Vigor — no Bow or DW. It's awful.

    In any case, my post wasn't meant to be "stam vs mag," I was simply pointing out some of the differences between them that make Vigor competitive, and in my opinion superior.
    Edited by Langeston on June 27, 2020 10:25PM
  • Bergzorn
    Bergzorn
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I totally agree, the cost to break free and roll dodge should be reduced by 15% for mag toons.
    no CP PvP PC/EU

    EP Zergborn
    DC Zerg Beacon

    guild master, raid leader, janitor, and only member of Zergbored
  • Gaggin
    Gaggin
    ✭✭✭✭
    The skills are fairly equal, rr needs a staff for it and can be stolen from u by allies, you can't really compare the two side by side, Stam can dodge more which makes up for their sometimes lower healing capabilities, but it is dishonest to say that vigor is all stam have @Wing to name a few...

    Rally
    leeching strikes for nb
    Soul tether for nb
    killer's blade for nb
    reapers mark for nb
    mercilous resolve for nb
    brawler(via shield)
    draining shot
    templar healing ult
    warden forest ult
    every cast of warden animal abilities
    barrier via shield
    crit surge for sorc
    dark deal for sorc
    mushrooms for warden
    green lotus for warden
    battle roar for dk
    scythe for necro
    graverobber for necro
    goliath for necro

    I'm tired of listing them, did you forget these?
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Bergzorn wrote: »
    I totally agree, the cost to break free and roll dodge should be reduced by 15% for mag toons.

    Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but despite it seeming somewhat sarcastic given the fact that the -15% stamina cost rule only applies to active abilities, I do feel like Light Armor should reduce break free cost along with the snare/sprint reduction passive. Roll dodging cost reduction should remain attached to Medium armor. I think that would help Magicka classes a lot in pvp, but thats another topic entirely.

    @Wing and @Langeston . My post is not about mag vs stam. I already mentioned the pro's/con's of both, how Vigor is more accepted and how they could both be updated for the better. Any argument related to stam vs mag is unrelated to the topic and will never end because people have their own subjective opinions.

    From an objective, math based perspective entirely rooted in ZOS's standards, Vigor is under budget. It simply breaks the rules they themselves have established so there isn't much to debate. Thats the benefit of balancing skills based on a spreadsheet, take it or leave it.

    Again, I feel like I have to mention this because people didn't read the entire OP, Rapid Regen should be changed to a self heal to meet this standard too, then as a suggestion (feel free to make your own), the morph unique effect could heal a second low health target. This would fix the biggest complaint about it, being that it's not a reliable self heal, yes it's still attached to a weapon, but said weapon gives 2 passives.

    How would you like the skills to behave if the core of them was standardized to 2700 cost, 5s duration and a self heal. What would you want them to do differently?
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    You forgot the part where rapid regen requires you to run a resto staff whereas vigor can be used on any build.

    Me? First of all, thats now how skills are designed when you use standards.

    Secondly, I mentioned it in the OP, even though thats true, it doesn't mean the skill shouldn't follow the same rules.
    Resolving Vigor:
    No one who uses this is really complaining about it because it's still great despite being slightly under budget in comparison to Rapid Regen, it's a dedicated self heal and it's not attached to a weapon, making it easy enough to slot for any stamina player. The reverse argument is that Magicka classes typically have more in class healing options available. That being said, there should be no reason why it costs 30% more than it should or last less time than Rapid Regen.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on June 27, 2020 11:14PM
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • OrphanHelgen
    OrphanHelgen
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    It started way back when people complained about stam vs mag, and I guess devs are tired of people complaining that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, so they just made everything equal and didn't give a *** about identity and unique playstyles.
    PC, EU server, Ebonheart Pact


    Finally a reason not to play League of Legends
  • Oakmontowls_ESO
    Oakmontowls_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    You forgot the part where rapid regen requires you to run a resto staff whereas vigor can be used on any build.

    Me? First of all, thats now how skills are designed when you use standards.

    Secondly, I mentioned it in the OP, even though thats true, it doesn't mean the skill shouldn't follow the same rules.
    Resolving Vigor:
    No one who uses this is really complaining about it because it's still great despite being slightly under budget in comparison to Rapid Regen, it's a dedicated self heal and it's not attached to a weapon, making it easy enough to slot for any stamina player. The reverse argument is that Magicka classes typically have more in class healing options available. That being said, there should be no reason why it costs 30% more than it should or last less time than Rapid Regen.

    It absolutely should be accounted for, opportunity cost is a thing. With vigor you can still be fully offensive and not be shoehorned into using a completely defensive weapon
  • Langeston
    Langeston
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Wing and @Langeston . My post is not about mag vs stam. I already mentioned the pro's/con's of both, how Vigor is more accepted and how they could both be updated for the better. Any argument related to stam vs mag is unrelated to the topic and will never end because people have their own subjective opinions.
    I'm not sure why you felt the need to include me in that. For all your condescension about people not reading your post, you didn't seem to do a very good job of reading mine.⬇️
    Langeston wrote: »
    In any case, my post wasn't meant to be "stam vs mag," I was simply pointing out some of the differences between them that make Vigor competitive, and in my opinion superior.

    And as I said earlier: I agree that ZOS is terrible at following it's own rules — but as it stands right now, Vigor is in a good place relative to Regen and any inconsistency between the two is more than made up for by the passives available to stam toons. Reducing the cost or upping the duration (unless the base healing remains the same) will result in an unnecessary buff to specs that are already outperforming their magicka counterparts.
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    You forgot the part where rapid regen requires you to run a resto staff whereas vigor can be used on any build.

    Me? First of all, thats now how skills are designed when you use standards.

    Secondly, I mentioned it in the OP, even though thats true, it doesn't mean the skill shouldn't follow the same rules.
    Resolving Vigor:
    No one who uses this is really complaining about it because it's still great despite being slightly under budget in comparison to Rapid Regen, it's a dedicated self heal and it's not attached to a weapon, making it easy enough to slot for any stamina player. The reverse argument is that Magicka classes typically have more in class healing options available. That being said, there should be no reason why it costs 30% more than it should or last less time than Rapid Regen.

    It absolutely should be accounted for, opportunity cost is a thing. With vigor you can still be fully offensive and not be shoehorned into using a completely defensive weapon

    If it were any other game, sure, but this is different. ZOS is the one who chose to use skill standards. ZOS is the one who balances from a spreadsheet. ZOS is the one who makes their standards and ZOS is the one who chose to ignore them here while also ignoring them on many other abilities that I could get into if you like. Your not arguing with me, your arguing with ZOS at this point, this is the path they chose, they continue to be inconsistent about it, all I'm asking for is consistency with the design philosophy they chose to adopt in 2019 going forward.

    Cost, tooltip strength, duration, these are standards that they use to apply to every skill in the game or atleast they claim to. Unless a morph, passive or "rulebreaker" brings it beyond this standard, they start out exactly the same.

    Twin Slash vs Venomous Claw, they're literally identical at their core.

    Silver Shards vs Crushing Weapon.

    So again, I understand the context of the situation, but that doesn't factor in the core princibles of a skill design unless stated otherwise. In this case, all Vigor morphs are flawed in that they don't actually meet this elusive standard ZOS claims to use.

    Please read these notes from Scalebreaker U24 for a clearer picture:
    Vigor: Adhered this ability to our AoE HoT standards.
    • Increased the duration to 8 seconds from 5 seconds, but decreased the tick frequency to 2 seconds from 1 second.
    • Increased the healing per tick by approximately 33%.
    • Reduced the cost to 2984 from 3511.
      • Resolving Vigor (morph): This morph doubles the frequency, halves the duration, and increases the healing per tick by approximately 43%, but now only targets your character.
      • Echoing Vigor (morph): This morph continues to increase the radius, but also increases the duration per rank, up to 10 seconds at rank IV, allowing for 1 additional heal tick. It also no longer ranks up in 1.1% healing per rank.

    3 major issues here:
    1. The 8 second duration standard was abolished when they made all DoTs last 10s at base. HoTs/DoT's are suppose to follow the same standards in terms of cost and duration as stated by ZOS. It's why Wall of Elements and Volley now start at 10s, but increase to 14s with their respective duration morphs. It's why you won't find a 6/8s duration dot anymore, they're all above 10s. Heals like Vigor and Springs were never updated to the 10s, instead sticking to the 8s base which goes against ZOS's own standards.
    2. 3511 cost changing to 2984 was simply applying the -15% cost stamina standard present on all stamina abiliites that do not have a passive for -15% cost. 3510 is 30% more than 2700, which has been clearly stated as the standard cost of single target heals and damage abiliites. This shows us, In ZOS's eyes, Resolving Vigor = AOE heal, except it isn't at all, it only inherits this trait from the base skill thats AOE, Vigor. Again, breaks ZOS's own standards.
    3. Even Echoing Vigor doesn't follow proper logic here, if the morph is used to extend the duration, it should behave like Endless Hail or Elemental Blockade where they go beyond 10s to 14s. Yes, thats very long, but again, ZOS is showing they are wildly inconsistent which is the entire point of this post.

    I'd like to highlight these standardization issues for Vigor also applies to the Springs changes. Springs were reworked to 8s at base with the duration extending morph, Illustrious Healing increasing the 8s to 12s. This should of been updated to 10s and 14s respectively when they updated their DoT standards.

    This is not up for debate, ZOS is breaking their own standards. Period. I'm only using the information ZOS has provided to us.
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Langeston wrote: »
    @Wing and @Langeston . My post is not about mag vs stam. I already mentioned the pro's/con's of both, how Vigor is more accepted and how they could both be updated for the better. Any argument related to stam vs mag is unrelated to the topic and will never end because people have their own subjective opinions.
    I'm not sure why you felt the need to include me in that. For all your condescension about people not reading your post, you didn't seem to do a very good job of reading mine.⬇️
    Langeston wrote: »
    In any case, my post wasn't meant to be "stam vs mag," I was simply pointing out some of the differences between them that make Vigor competitive, and in my opinion superior.

    And as I said earlier: I agree that ZOS is terrible at following it's own rules — but as it stands right now, Vigor is in a good place relative to Regen and any inconsistency between the two is more than made up for by the passives available to stam toons. Reducing the cost or upping the duration (unless the base healing remains the same) will result in an unnecessary buff to specs that are already outperforming their magicka counterparts.

    Yeah, you're right, I'm sorry about that. I did realize part way through writing my comment that it may seem like it was evenly made for both of you, but it was mainly directed at @Wing to be honest. It just would of been too complicated to seperate everything, they clearly take a strong stance in defending the stamina side of the equation as if they're worse off which I don't think is the case. I think there is endless arguments to be made for both sides which is why it will end up leading nowhere. It's very subjective.

    As you stated in another comment, the only thing ZOS is consistent about, is being inconsistent. It would literally take me an afternoon to analyze every abilities cost, duration and power and equalize them. It only gets muddy when you start considering things like cast times and channels, which is apparently why Flurry, Jabs and Dizzy Swing are by far the strongest spammables, those skills take a little bit more finnese to balance.

    Something like Vigor, Regen and Springs seems very clear cut to me. If Magicka was behind or Stamina was farther ahead, there is other ways to bring them in line, rather than breaking their own rules without stating so. If you can view my most recent comment above, you'll see that as of Update 23, ZOS commented that Vigor was rebalanced to match the supposed standards at the time, so it had nothing to do with Medium armor builds, but everything to do with an oversight, because the standard they used is no longer applicable today.

    Edit: Another skill that still follows the 8s duration rule is Ring of Preservation. This should also be 10s.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on June 28, 2020 2:08AM
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    It started way back when people complained about stam vs mag, and I guess devs are tired of people complaining that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, so they just made everything equal and didn't give a *** about identity and unique playstyles.

    I think they grew tired with balancing things based on opinion and started to treat combat balance from a mathematical perspective in terms of applying core standards which enables them to balance via spreadsheet. Love it or hate it, it's what they're doing now with everything, skills, sets, etc. It saves them time and money, even if it's rather boring.

    I know a ton of people don't agree with this methology, it's further enabling a sense of homoginization, but it's how they've chosen to do it. If they did it from the beginning of the game as MOST games do, it wouldn't of been as big of a culture shock. At this point, it's just annoying when they choose to break said rules in the same breath as creating them. Something so simple, should be easy to apply to all abilities, but for whatever reason, things fly right over their head for multiple patches.

    In this case, Resolving Vigor is treated as an aoe hot for cost standards. Which is wrong.

    It's also treated with an abandoned duration standard from update 23, that was changed in Update 24 from 8s duration to 10s. Damage skills updated, but Heals like Vigor, Springs and Ring of Preservation were not.
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    While I agree that Vigor should be 5s and cheaper, I don’t think the comparison to Rapid Regen is entirely applicable. For one thing, Rapid Regen is a Restoration Staff skill, it cannot be used with a Destruction Staff. This is a major limitation, and can be compared to a hypothetical scenario where Vigor was locked behind using a 1H and Shield. The targeting also gives them completely different use cases, RR is about healing others, Vigor is for the user. It doesn’t really make sense that any standard value would apply to both of these very different skills.
  • Bergzorn
    Bergzorn
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bergzorn wrote: »
    I totally agree, the cost to break free and roll dodge should be reduced by 15% for mag toons.

    Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but despite it seeming somewhat sarcastic given the fact that the -15% stamina cost rule only applies to active abilities, I do feel like Light Armor should reduce break free cost along with the snare/sprint reduction passive. Roll dodging cost reduction should remain attached to Medium armor. I think that would help Magicka classes a lot in pvp, but thats another topic entirely.

    Sorry for the bit snarky reply to a topic you clearly put effort in. My line of thought was that ZOS' approach of spread sheet balancing does not fit the 'reality' of the game. It was the availability of some outlier skills that made classes interesting and fun to play (as magsorrc main, I'm still mourning for the stun on Crystal Fragments). Instead of balancing by something like class budget, we now get balancing by skill budget wich IMO it is much harder with to satisfy a very diverse player base. This discussion is a good example, not everyone has the same opinion what should be considered for the budget and what not.

    The 15% cost reduction on stamina abilities is a bit similar, as IMO, ZOS' argument for it does not fit the reality of the (PvP) gameplay.
    [...] ZOS aims to balance core skills from a spreadsheet, thats the point of using standards, to make their lives easier. Love it or hate it, balancing skills based on context of an armor weight or someones potential build isn't how they do things anymore. Resolving Vigor doesn't adhear to the standards they claim to support.

    Of course you can call ZOS to stand by their standards. But IMO skills should always be balanced with as much context in mind as possible.

    no CP PvP PC/EU

    EP Zergborn
    DC Zerg Beacon

    guild master, raid leader, janitor, and only member of Zergbored
  • Zabagad
    Zabagad
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Langeston wrote: »
    Yes, and Vigor is great. I wish there was something like it available for mag toons. Imagine if you had to swap out your back bar weapon for a resto staff just to get Vigor — no Bow or DW. It's awful.
    I think that "imagine" could be extended a bit:

    Imagine if you have your vigor fixed on your backbar (you cannot place it where it fits best) - which is fixed to one skill line (S&B?) - just to get Vigor - and if you cast it, you cannot be sure it heals you or somebody else! (which can happen multiple times and you only waste resources)

    That is awful in square.

    I dont care about all the stam vs mag discussion and you can go around there in cycles and nobody can finally get any result.
    But if I just look on Rapid vs Vigor and not dilute the discussion - I'm always be jealous on Vigor.


    I'm 100% sure that a mag Vigor, would be the biggest possible improvement to my PvP performance - from a single and fair change.
    Any other change which would improve my results by the same amount, would be a ridiculous OP change.
    Edited by Zabagad on June 28, 2020 6:03AM
    PC EU (noCP AD) Grey/Grau AD
  • Langeston
    Langeston
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Langeston wrote: »
    @Wing and @Langeston . My post is not about mag vs stam. I already mentioned the pro's/con's of both, how Vigor is more accepted and how they could both be updated for the better. Any argument related to stam vs mag is unrelated to the topic and will never end because people have their own subjective opinions.
    I'm not sure why you felt the need to include me in that. For all your condescension about people not reading your post, you didn't seem to do a very good job of reading mine.⬇️
    Langeston wrote: »
    In any case, my post wasn't meant to be "stam vs mag," I was simply pointing out some of the differences between them that make Vigor competitive, and in my opinion superior.

    And as I said earlier: I agree that ZOS is terrible at following it's own rules — but as it stands right now, Vigor is in a good place relative to Regen and any inconsistency between the two is more than made up for by the passives available to stam toons. Reducing the cost or upping the duration (unless the base healing remains the same) will result in an unnecessary buff to specs that are already outperforming their magicka counterparts.

    Yeah, you're right, I'm sorry about that. I did realize part way through writing my comment that it may seem like it was evenly made for both of you, but it was mainly directed at @Wing to be honest. It just would of been too complicated to seperate everything, they clearly take a strong stance in defending the stamina side of the equation as if they're worse off which I don't think is the case. I think there is endless arguments to be made for both sides which is why it will end up leading nowhere. It's very subjective.

    As you stated in another comment, the only thing ZOS is consistent about, is being inconsistent. It would literally take me an afternoon to analyze every abilities cost, duration and power and equalize them. It only gets muddy when you start considering things like cast times and channels, which is apparently why Flurry, Jabs and Dizzy Swing are by far the strongest spammables, those skills take a little bit more finnese to balance.

    Something like Vigor, Regen and Springs seems very clear cut to me. If Magicka was behind or Stamina was farther ahead, there is other ways to bring them in line, rather than breaking their own rules without stating so. If you can view my most recent comment above, you'll see that as of Update 23, ZOS commented that Vigor was rebalanced to match the supposed standards at the time, so it had nothing to do with Medium armor builds, but everything to do with an oversight, because the standard they used is no longer applicable today.

    Edit: Another skill that still follows the 8s duration rule is Ring of Preservation. This should also be 10s.
    Thank you for the apology. For my part, I apologise if I came off a bit snitty.

    I think we agree about far more than we disagree, tbh. I agree with your premise, and the math & logic supporting your argument is sound. You were right earlier in a response to someone else when you said that their argument was with ZOS and not you. My argument is with ZOS's hamfisted approach to standardization, not with you trying to reconcile the assload of idiosyncrasies that that have created due to said approach.

    I also technically agree with your conclusion — it's the logical one to make in a vacuum if you're balancing via spreadsheet, and that is [supposedly] the approach ZOS takes. I just wouldn't want to see it implemented as the game stands right now because I think it would create more of a disparity than we already have.
  • Sergykid
    Sergykid
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    i just want the Rapid Regen to heal the lowest player who's in front of you (or you if you're the lower one or nobody in front of u) just like warden's Vines work.
    -PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Langeston wrote: »
    You're not taking into consideration the fact that stam builds are currently capable of 5.5k-6k+ weapon damage, their skills are cheaper (allowing them to run with less regen & more damage glyphs) and many don't need to specifically build up magicka the way all mag toons have to build up stamina. All of these things contribute to better overall healing with vigor.

    The last time I compared the two, while the base tooltips might be the same, in practice Vigor does about the same amount of healing but over a shorter period of time. I'd take Vigor as it is right now in a heartbeat over Rapid Regen.

    Also, there is a stark difference between Vigor and Rapid Regen. One requires equipping a specific weapon. The other does not. That alone could, and probably should, be taken into consideration.
  • Icarus42
    Icarus42
    ✭✭✭
    Make regen heal lowest health ally or yourself if you have lowest health. That would equalize the disparity between vigor and regen imo. Add whatever morphs you want, but that should be the base line here.
    Ebonheart Pact - PC NA - Magicka Sorcerer
  • MincVinyl
    MincVinyl
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Imo vigor is unhealthy for the game, and honestly most out of class skills are. I would rather zos start reworking classes and making inclass options more viable. For instance having out of class options held to a lower tooltip standard since everyone has access to them.

    Vigor is unnecessary anyways, all zos would have to do is up the in class heal options that stam players have access to and then cut vigor by a bit. Then every single person wouldn't have to run the ability and fight against it.
    Side note: I still will never understand the reasoning behind making stam players useless in group play. When I play 2vX or 3vX with old friends it is sad whenever we get into fights and I literally have to just watch them die and literally can not help them in any way. This is the main reason why BG matches so heavily favor the team with the healer or all mag players. And no running echoing/unmorphed is not an option. It is pretty much an automatic loss if you happen upon an equally skilled player.

    Also fun fact, unmorphed vigor last time I checked had 3% more hps than echoing vigor.
  • cheemers
    cheemers
    ✭✭✭✭
    Great post. Can I also humbly request that Resolving Vigor not break stealth? It's a self buff / heal like Rally.
    Youtube channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UCDQ7FrJ0AjMt2auffLEf_Pw

    PS4 EU - 18 characters, all DC
  • Kadoin
    Kadoin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    That moment you see someone ask for a buff to stam when stam rules PvP across the board, has lower costs, can wear heavy easier, has better sets for offense, and doesn't need to manage two stat pools to be effective in PvP, all you can ask is really?

    People love arguing for changes when looking at things in isolation.

    They're also forgetting nearly every stam spec has other healing besides vigor and rally, and those other effects don't cost stam. There is no mag heal that costs stam.

    Once you add that into the equation, stam is actually more efficient at self-healing than mag is, and adding into the possibility of running more damage resistance that mag cannot (because mag still needs to build some form of stam management or you won't be pvping for long), then it's obvious why stam rules PvP.

    But, whatever, I use hybrids that can push more healing that a pure build anyway with vigor so buff me more :D
    cheemers wrote: »
    Great post. Can I also humbly request that Resolving Vigor not break stealth? It's a self buff / heal like Rally.

    Last I checked all targeted heals break stealth. So it's not a self-buff, but a targeted heal and should keep breaking it.
    Edited by Kadoin on June 29, 2020 8:23PM
  • Fur_like_snow
    Fur_like_snow
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    When it comes to vigor we have a clear choice for self healing and an objectively worse choice for self healing. without an easy way to swap between these morphs I’d just choose not to heal my group. I’d be at such a disadvantage against a stam player who took the better self heal morph it’s not even funny.

    I’d suggest taking a second look at class healing options. Check out green dragon blood it gives a laughable amount of stam return and a pathetic heal that doesn’t scale off highest max stat. What’s even the point? Warden can have a stam based class heal but the other classes don’t. Why?
    Edited by Fur_like_snow on June 29, 2020 8:50PM
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Icarus42 wrote: »
    Make regen heal lowest health ally or yourself if you have lowest health. That would equalize the disparity between vigor and regen imo. Add whatever morphs you want, but that should be the base line here.

    Thats how it already functions on live, if an ally has 70% health within a 28m range, and you have 71% they will steal the heal, thats the biggest complaint amongst magicka players, they want their own self heal like Vigor. We can't fix the fact that it's attached to a weapon, but it does have the opportunity that the assault line doesn't, it receives improvements from the Restoration staff passives for +5% healing and +15% healing to allies (including yourself) under 30% hp.

    So.. why not make Rapid Regen primarly a self heal and focus it's secondary effect on helping a second ally. Thats why I suggested the baseline for both Regen and Vigor should be 5s hot, self targetted, 2700 cost.

    It's a no brainer imo, Resolving Vigor and Echoing Vigor went under the same treatment during their skill audit. Resolving use to be a 10m aoe hot with extra self healing and Echoing was the same 5s duration, but 15m range. In the interest of providing a more balanced and interesting morph choice, Echoing changed into a group focussed hot by increasing to 10s, 15m range, but only ticking every 2s. Resolving changed to only a self heal.

    Same treatment would do wonders for Rapid Regen and Radiating Regen where they're in a similar space as the previous itterations of Vigor Morphs. For example, if Radiating was guaranteed to hit yourself + 3 other allies for the same amount, healing every 2s for 10s, it would make it just as good as Echoing for some minor self-healing, but not as amazing as Rapid Regen with it's primary focus on yourself.
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • cheemers
    cheemers
    ✭✭✭✭
    Kadoin wrote: »
    cheemers wrote: »
    Great post. Can I also humbly request that Resolving Vigor not break stealth? It's a self buff / heal like Rally.

    Last I checked all targeted heals break stealth. So it's not a self-buff, but a targeted heal and should keep breaking it.

    Yes, it targets you, just like rally or dragons blood or dark deal or any other strictly self-targeting heal, none of which pull you from stealth. It is not a breath of life.

    Also, the rest of your post is very wrong, and shows either inexperience or overwhelming anti-stamina bias.
    Edited by cheemers on June 30, 2020 2:47PM
    Youtube channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UCDQ7FrJ0AjMt2auffLEf_Pw

    PS4 EU - 18 characters, all DC
Sign In or Register to comment.