Let's talk about DPS

BejaProphet

Athyrium93 wrote: »

Threads like this make me wonder why anyone wants to play DPS in this game. What's the point in even trying when 3/4th of players are struggling to get over 30K? Or the newer player struggling to get over 20k or even 10k?
I'm not saying those end game players pulling these numbers don't deserve to be, but man is it demoralizing when you spend weeks or months practicing rotations and farming gear and you still can't hit the absolute bottom tier to even be considered in most even some what active guilds. It is tough hearing that people pulling double or triple your DPS and are still being told to 'git gud' so I imagine it is why a lot of new players don't stick with the game very long, they grind like crazy to get to CP160 so they can get their gear, then grind like crazy to get it, then get told they suck and should just give up. So they do.
It makes me so glad I rolled a healer as my main so I don't have to deal with it any where near as much. I think it's cool that skill dictates such a large portion of DPS in this game, but no one pulling 40k+ DPS sucks, and you really shouldn't make it sound like it does. It might not be enough for some groups, and that's fine, but that isn't anywhere near bad DPS.

TLDR:
Be mindful that newer players trying to improve read these forums too and seeing 40k+ DPS called bad can be really discouraging to them when they are struggling to hit half that.

I agree with much of the sentiment in your post. But to put 40k dps on iron atronarch in perspective....(because that’s what we are talking about)

I hate alts, my main is a tank. So when I play around as a damage dealer I swap gear on my tank. Here’s all that is going against me.

1. I’m a nord
2. I have all 64 attributes into health
3. I don’t have the meta DD sets. No Relequen, nothing at all from sun spurs.
4. My CP is what I tank with. Lot of flex in blue tree as it’s not very important for tanking but I do have my healing boosted, so not optimal.
5. I am cheap, and I refuse to use high quality potions even when parsing. That means I have igneous weapons on my bar and in my rotation. Meaning my whole rotation is altered and a bit jury rigged to accommodate. TLDR I can’t use most optimal Stam DK rotation.
6. I’m Stam DK.

All that against me and I still hit north of 40k on the iron attronarch. So yes, if somebody can’t beat 40k on that when they are actually building for damage, either they are not done leveling/setting up their character or there is a skill issue.

It doesn’t make them have any less dignity or worth as a human being, but it does mean they have a lot to learn on this.

Jaimeh

You have some good points OP, I agree that focusing too much on DPS can actually be detrimental for a group. I see raids asking for certain parse minimums, and then analyze damage on logs, etc., but completely overlook support roles. It's very obvious to see if DDs are not doing decently, but I routinely see healers/tanks underperforming on trials, and it's usually overlooked, when in fact they indirectly contribute to damage as well. Secondly, no matter how high the DPS, mechanics is still king; yes, a lot of mechanics can be skipped or ameliorated with high damage, but that's not always the case. I see groups with DDs that post insanely high Yolna parses, that wipe in Sanctum Ophidia. Why? Because we have been conditioned to be so hyperfocused on DPS, and look at the metrics, and not what's actually happening around us: people will not move/ rez/cast a heal, so that can squeeze more out of their parse, even if it means the group will wipe. I have seen this happening frequently, and it's not because these players are just good parsers but have poor environmental awareness etc., it's because in the end-game community the numbers is what everyone wants to know, achieve, and show off. In very few groups there's actually team work, and not DDs selfihly parsing away, because damage has become the end all, be all. I think if groups focused more on traning their supports to have good uptimes even when reactive playing, and their DDs to prioritize mechanics above everything, groups would have an easier time in trials as a whole.

IonicKai

I have seen both sides of this coin and while I understand the sentiment there are some realities on how tough you make trials if people can't hit decent numbers. I have seen many floor Lord's that hit big numbers on the dummy because they lack raid awareness and plenty of low hitting players that can at least pay attention to mechanics but at some point DPS need to be able to hit certain numbers to be considered.

To be clear all numbers from every guild I'm in are measured on the iron atro (trial dummy) because it standardizes parsing. There isn't a way to cheese or inflate your numbers (other than thrassian stranglers right now) and it somewhat simulates group sustain minus some tools you get from healers and tanks like extra synergies, hollowfang, syphony of blades, etc... If you can't hit north of 65k on a trial dummy then you are completely botching your characters rotation and will be getting carried or struggling through veteran content. Now most teams worth taking seriously require 75k (this means proficient enough to complete any content assuming you can stay alive) as far as a lot of end gamers who pay attention are concerned. It's not enough for all burn strats but enough that you don't completely miss a required burn assuming mechanic awareness is there. Anything lower and often excessive burden is put on support who have to start to do things that are going to cause group failure.

To give a good example of the failure I am talking about let's look at vSS. For Yoln (fire dragon), the longer the fight goes on the more adds that spawn. That is more time your MT is taking abuse from the dragon and more things you are expecting your OT to hold while basically self sustaining. At some point they will take too much damage, bleed too much resources, or not be able to hold anything else. For another example let's talk vMoL twins since that's the classic awareness test. It doesn't matter if all the low dps players can do conversions correctly when you are on your 3rd/4th 4 add phase because damage is too low and you can barely clear the first adds with hard focusing them (meaning little to no damage on the actual bosses). Eventually someone is going to mess up or tanks won't be able to get all the adds in and you will get overwhelmed.

My point here is that there is a balance and while the snob elites sometimes ask for too much, those not willing to take time to learn by talking to others (who are hitting hard) or consulting forums/YouTube/build sites, etc... Are also asking too much at the opposite end of the spectrum. There are reasons to require a certain DPS amount for certain content and it's not inherently toxic to do so. That said excessive requirements can be silly and show many who play this game are mixing correlation and causality (high DPS does not equal high raid capability though there are a fair amount of players that have both). If you don't like what a team is asking for then don't apply to join but don't just write them off as eltiest when the game is designed with a certain amount of damage in mind and made significantly more doable by achieving requested DPS teams ask for.

Edit: Fixing end of comment.

amm7sb14_ESO

My thoughts on DPS:

For some reason I can parse approx. 10k on a tank, but on a fully specced out dps I can only get 15k-20k

I dont get dps in this game and that's why I dont play dps

Everest_Lionheart

IonicKai wrote: »

I have seen both sides of this coin and while I understand the sentiment there are some realities on how tough you make trials if people can't hit decent numbers. I have seen many floor Lord's that hit big numbers on the dummy because they lack raid awareness and plenty of low hitting players that can at least pay attention to mechanics but at some point DPS need to be able to hit certain numbers to be considered.

To be clear all numbers from every guild I'm in are measured on the iron atro (trial dummy) because it standardizes parsing. There isn't a way to cheese or inflate your numbers (other than thrassian stranglers right now) and it somewhat simulates group sustain minus some tools you get from healers and tanks like extra synergies, hollowfang, syphony of blades, etc... If you can't hit north of 65k on a trial dummy then you are completely botching your characters rotation and will be getting carried or struggling through veteran content. Now most teams worth taking seriously require 75k (this means proficient enough to complete any content assuming you can stay alive) as far as a lot of end gamers who pay attention are concerned. It's not enough for all burn strats but enough that you don't completely miss a required burn assuming mechanic awareness is there. Anything lower and often excessive burden is put on support who have to start to do things that are going to cause group failure.

To give a good example of the failure I am talking about let's look at vSS. For Yoln (fire dragon), the longer the fight goes on the more adds that spawn. That is more time your MT is taking abuse from the dragon and more things you are expecting your OT to hold while basically self sustaining. At some point they will take too much damage, bleed too much resources, or not be able to hold anything else. For another example let's talk vMoL twins since that's the classic awareness test. It doesn't matter if all the low dps players can do conversions correctly when you are on your 3rd/4th 4 add phase because damage is too low and you can barely clear the first adds with hard focusing them (meaning little to no damage on the actual bosses). Eventually someone is going to mess up or tanks won't be able to get all the adds in and you will get overwhelmed.

My point here is that there is a balance and while the snob elites sometimes ask for too much, those not willing to take time to learn by talking to others (who are hitting hard) or consulting forums/YouTube/build sites, etc... Are also asking too much at the opposite end of the spectrum. There are reasons to require a certain DPS amount for certain content and it's not inherently toxic to do so. That said excessive requirements can be silly and show many who play this game are mixing correlation and causality (high DPS does not equal high raid capability though there are a fair amount of players that have both). If you don't like what a team is asking for then don't apply to join but don't just write them off as eltiest when the game is designed with a certain amount of damage in mind and made significantly more doable by achieving requested DPS teams ask for.

Edit: Fixing end of comment.

In my case I know I’m not ready for vet yet and for a variety of reasons. So I’m sharpening my skills and building my toon through the normal trials first. I didn’t really get into group play until recently either. I’ve just hit CP450 and most vet trials they are looking for 600 so that alone means I’ve got work to do just leveling my character. I’m hitting 40K on Stamwarden with Hundings/Briarheart and no monster set. Just a generic 2pc that gives more stam. I’ve made a new MagDK with some guidance that’s hitting 42K in Julianos/MS also no monster set.

I’m working with one of the trail leaders to tweak CP and mundus to try to add 5K while picking up more CP and trial equipment. Pushing up the DPS for vet trials is a process though. A long painful at times process, but that’s the game.