Let's talk about DPS
maddiniiLuna
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I've come across this and the problems that come with it more then usual in the past few weeks. Groups being just completely disbanded or raid leaders having some sort of reality loss - expecting everybody to have huge DPS numbers.
Here's a little summary for you:
Displaying your DPS and the accuracy of it
First: What is DPS and how do you know yours? The answer is not as simple as you think. "Installing an Addon" does not give a true representation of your actual dps. But: Neither do raids. So the numbers you see in raids are heavily influenced by the amount of monsters you fight. For example the combat metrics addon which gives you this neat and handy little DPS bar. It calculates all DPS and sums them up. It's not rare for me to see 150k DPS being shown in that window. However it's not my actual dps, as it's the total dps to all mobs. So if i throw an endless hail in to a group i will instantly have more DPS then throwing it at a dummy at home. Still feeling strong? There is more to it. When you hit the dummy first off all - not all effects, scenarios and situations are met by the trial dummy. This can impact your DPS anywhere from -20k to +8k (it never seems to go over 8 tho). So getting 61k on the dummy (yeah i'm at 61k - hate me) and doing 61k in a trial - it's just not realistic (i usually loose around 10k DPS in trials). This means no - your DPS values are not accurate.
You are loosing DPS!
Be honest with yourself. Who's been doing good DPS on the trial dummy and in raid suddenly only has half of this? The main thing i notice is, that people don't re-cast their aoe's when the boss moves. They are so stuck with doing a rotation and trying to do the best rotation possible, that they don't even realize they are missing something. Example: Hel Ra Citadel. Who knows it? The two second bosses jump around a lot and as somebody who has been on both sides i can tell you so much: The vast majority of people do not re-cast their aoe's or even barbed trap. Yes - re-casting does cost you a lot more resources then necessary but we'll talk about resources a bit later. Another big factor is buffs and debuffs. The big raid dummy comes with most debuffs that you have, also with wormcult, hircines, 100% warhorn, etc. When was the last time you've seen hircines (the green bubbles for stamina regen) in a raid? For me i can't even remember. You be posting your trial dummy DPS to your raid lead and he goes: Oh great! You're OP! And everybody kind of goes their own way, not thinking about all the buffs and debuffs. Granted - some buffs are quite easy to achieve and almost come from alone like "Major Fracture", which a lot of classes have in their rotation these days. But what's with Minor Fracture? Do you see your raid lead asking if anybody is using Minor fracture skills / sets? Well that's another loss in DPS right there.
In my opinion most "random" raid groups are doing a very poor job (or no job) at managing the raid. They just open a group, expect you to have 82k DPS and let's go! This was basically examples on why your DPS in trials is often lower then the trial dummy. Next we got how to maintain a good DPS.
How do you stop loosing (too much) DPS?
The most important thing is: Don't expect to much! I have seen more groups succeed without a "DPS Limit" (i.e. you will be asked by raid lead to do x amount of DPS) then with a DPS Limit. The reason is pretty simple: I'd prefer somebody with 10k less DPS, but being able to maintain this DPS - over somebody with +10k DPS, but unable to deliver it in the heat of the battle. Yeah i take 30k DPS with me and succeed heavy veteran trials, asking 50k - 60k DPS is just unrealistic. Not saying it's impossible. Skilled players will be able to achieve and maintain this DPS, the majority does not however. So as mentioned before here are some crucial Tipps for maintaining your DPS (Keep in my i'm nowhere near a professional DPS master myself, just personal experience):
Re-casting your abilites will often cost a lot more resources then you planned to use. However you will have to do this in at least half of all trials. The aetherian archive for example has bosses that for the most part just stand still. The cloudrest however phew those bosses like to move a lot. If you're doing 50k in vAA, but only 30k in vCR then that's one of the reasons.
In hand with this goes the choice of sets. If you have to re-cast your abilities a lot, is it worth it taking sets that increase your resource regeneration like wormcult? It probably is! Yeah you "loose" one DPS. 2 were doing fine anyway, but you maintained the DPS of the other 6, which is certainly worth it. Don't ask the healers to run it, because they gotta heal trough your mistakes. In trial guilds were everybody knows mechanics it might make sense to ask a healer to wear it, but not in random groups.
If there is no set available, then you could consider using different buff food that grants you more recovery for when you need it. Every single player should be having at least 2 different types of buff food in their reach (inventory or mobile banker).
Learning when the bosses move where is essential to maintaining your DPS. Yeah sometimes they move rather randomly, but if you pay close attention to z'Maja (example) you'll notice a little shadow coming off her when she moves, giving you a rough idea on where she is going and you can be there ready with your trap or endless hail. Also if you die - not only do you loose 1 DPS but TWO! Because somebody has to resurrect you.
If you're trying to achieve the highest DPS possible and get stuck in your rotation without analyzing the situation, then you should re-think what you're doing and aim for a DPS that is more relaxing to you. Hell if you 30k DPS, but constantly then you're better then somebody doing 50k DPS but only half of the time. If a raid lead is asking you for 50k DPS and you know you can only achieve this under high pressure - don't go for it.
Short version
All in all - and i can't say this often enough - most raid expectations are simply unrealistic. The videos you see often feature DMG - Only builds, where they have buff food that only gives stamina / magicka, but no life. They automatically have more DPS then in a raid, where you should have at least 17k+ Life. If you join a raid with 12k Life - Don't bother coming. The chain lightning in vAA for example will just one-shot you every time somebody moves and they move a lot in random groups. Start preparing for your veteran trials a bit more. Use different sets (or even classes - talking about minor breach from templar here) and i can guarantee you - you will have more success then before. There is always some wipes, sometimes it gets disbanded, but generally speaking you'll have more success. 30 Day Money- Back guarantee here. If people tell you, that every player for vet trials should do 50k+ DPS just tell them they suffer from a reality loss here. Don't get discouraged and learn the mechanics. Again: LEARN - THE - MECHANICS! It takes nothing to just go on YouTube and watch a vSS guide while the servers are down. At least you have seen it once then.
Here's a little summary for you:
- What is DPS and is your DPS accurate?
- Why are you loosing DPS?
- How can you maintain your DPS?
- Brief summarize for those that don't want to read the book
Displaying your DPS and the accuracy of it
First: What is DPS and how do you know yours? The answer is not as simple as you think. "Installing an Addon" does not give a true representation of your actual dps. But: Neither do raids. So the numbers you see in raids are heavily influenced by the amount of monsters you fight. For example the combat metrics addon which gives you this neat and handy little DPS bar. It calculates all DPS and sums them up. It's not rare for me to see 150k DPS being shown in that window. However it's not my actual dps, as it's the total dps to all mobs. So if i throw an endless hail in to a group i will instantly have more DPS then throwing it at a dummy at home. Still feeling strong? There is more to it. When you hit the dummy first off all - not all effects, scenarios and situations are met by the trial dummy. This can impact your DPS anywhere from -20k to +8k (it never seems to go over 8 tho). So getting 61k on the dummy (yeah i'm at 61k - hate me) and doing 61k in a trial - it's just not realistic (i usually loose around 10k DPS in trials). This means no - your DPS values are not accurate.
You are loosing DPS!
Be honest with yourself. Who's been doing good DPS on the trial dummy and in raid suddenly only has half of this? The main thing i notice is, that people don't re-cast their aoe's when the boss moves. They are so stuck with doing a rotation and trying to do the best rotation possible, that they don't even realize they are missing something. Example: Hel Ra Citadel. Who knows it? The two second bosses jump around a lot and as somebody who has been on both sides i can tell you so much: The vast majority of people do not re-cast their aoe's or even barbed trap. Yes - re-casting does cost you a lot more resources then necessary but we'll talk about resources a bit later. Another big factor is buffs and debuffs. The big raid dummy comes with most debuffs that you have, also with wormcult, hircines, 100% warhorn, etc. When was the last time you've seen hircines (the green bubbles for stamina regen) in a raid? For me i can't even remember. You be posting your trial dummy DPS to your raid lead and he goes: Oh great! You're OP! And everybody kind of goes their own way, not thinking about all the buffs and debuffs. Granted - some buffs are quite easy to achieve and almost come from alone like "Major Fracture", which a lot of classes have in their rotation these days. But what's with Minor Fracture? Do you see your raid lead asking if anybody is using Minor fracture skills / sets? Well that's another loss in DPS right there.
In my opinion most "random" raid groups are doing a very poor job (or no job) at managing the raid. They just open a group, expect you to have 82k DPS and let's go! This was basically examples on why your DPS in trials is often lower then the trial dummy. Next we got how to maintain a good DPS.
How do you stop loosing (too much) DPS?
The most important thing is: Don't expect to much! I have seen more groups succeed without a "DPS Limit" (i.e. you will be asked by raid lead to do x amount of DPS) then with a DPS Limit. The reason is pretty simple: I'd prefer somebody with 10k less DPS, but being able to maintain this DPS - over somebody with +10k DPS, but unable to deliver it in the heat of the battle. Yeah i take 30k DPS with me and succeed heavy veteran trials, asking 50k - 60k DPS is just unrealistic. Not saying it's impossible. Skilled players will be able to achieve and maintain this DPS, the majority does not however. So as mentioned before here are some crucial Tipps for maintaining your DPS (Keep in my i'm nowhere near a professional DPS master myself, just personal experience):
- Re-casting spells when the boss moves
- Preparing with the right sets and debuffs / buffs
- Using different Buff Food / Heavy attacks (!)
- Learning mechanics (!) - A dead DPS is no DPS
- Don't aim for the highest amount of DPS - Aim for what is possible to YOU
Re-casting your abilites will often cost a lot more resources then you planned to use. However you will have to do this in at least half of all trials. The aetherian archive for example has bosses that for the most part just stand still. The cloudrest however phew those bosses like to move a lot. If you're doing 50k in vAA, but only 30k in vCR then that's one of the reasons.
In hand with this goes the choice of sets. If you have to re-cast your abilities a lot, is it worth it taking sets that increase your resource regeneration like wormcult? It probably is! Yeah you "loose" one DPS. 2 were doing fine anyway, but you maintained the DPS of the other 6, which is certainly worth it. Don't ask the healers to run it, because they gotta heal trough your mistakes. In trial guilds were everybody knows mechanics it might make sense to ask a healer to wear it, but not in random groups.
If there is no set available, then you could consider using different buff food that grants you more recovery for when you need it. Every single player should be having at least 2 different types of buff food in their reach (inventory or mobile banker).
Learning when the bosses move where is essential to maintaining your DPS. Yeah sometimes they move rather randomly, but if you pay close attention to z'Maja (example) you'll notice a little shadow coming off her when she moves, giving you a rough idea on where she is going and you can be there ready with your trap or endless hail. Also if you die - not only do you loose 1 DPS but TWO! Because somebody has to resurrect you.
If you're trying to achieve the highest DPS possible and get stuck in your rotation without analyzing the situation, then you should re-think what you're doing and aim for a DPS that is more relaxing to you. Hell if you 30k DPS, but constantly then you're better then somebody doing 50k DPS but only half of the time. If a raid lead is asking you for 50k DPS and you know you can only achieve this under high pressure - don't go for it.
Short version
All in all - and i can't say this often enough - most raid expectations are simply unrealistic. The videos you see often feature DMG - Only builds, where they have buff food that only gives stamina / magicka, but no life. They automatically have more DPS then in a raid, where you should have at least 17k+ Life. If you join a raid with 12k Life - Don't bother coming. The chain lightning in vAA for example will just one-shot you every time somebody moves and they move a lot in random groups. Start preparing for your veteran trials a bit more. Use different sets (or even classes - talking about minor breach from templar here) and i can guarantee you - you will have more success then before. There is always some wipes, sometimes it gets disbanded, but generally speaking you'll have more success. 30 Day Money- Back guarantee here. If people tell you, that every player for vet trials should do 50k+ DPS just tell them they suffer from a reality loss here. Don't get discouraged and learn the mechanics. Again: LEARN - THE - MECHANICS! It takes nothing to just go on YouTube and watch a vSS guide while the servers are down. At least you have seen it once then.
9
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Yusuf✭✭✭✭✭That said, there are certain buffs you can get in a raid that a dummy doesn't provide you like Symphony of Blades, Z'en or Martial Knowledge.
The dummy isn't the end-all-be-all because, well, raids have actual mechanics but it IS a pretty good starting point to find out the POTENTIAL of your current build/setup/rotation.8 -
maddiniiLuna✭✭✭✭One of the first things i noticed was off-balance. This can actually increase your dps. A lot of people means a lot of off-balance, that the dummy doesn't have by default.0
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colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The thing is that if you can't perform well on a stationary harmless target chances are quite high that in real raid environment you'll have more things to worry about. Surely there are lots of nuances too all the requirements stuff but it's not a mystery for most i'd hope.2 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am going to summarize/rephrase:
Displaying your DPS and the accuracy of it: Every fight is different, every group comp is different. This is why people rely on Raid dummy results for objectively comparable numbers between players and between classes. Practically every buff imaginable is standardized. Of course buffs give more damage. That said, most high end groups mirror a raid dummy environment much closer than you might think.
Saying my DPS is X is totally F'ing meaningless in this game. Most people that actually push score in this game care about ST (single target) DPS. In fact, when you analyze a parse of a trial fight, you get both pieces of info. Most raid leaders only really care about boss/ST DPS, because that is the limiting factor on score. Of course fights with lots of adds are going to pad your numbers, but you can always look at what you did to the boss.
If someone were to ask me what my DPS is, I would say something like, in Greymoor on a trial dummy, my self buffed single target DPS on my Mag DK is 92k. That tells you everything you need to know about my damage potential in a proper group for a ST boss fight for the class/spec in question. There is no objective reason to pushback on this as both a practice tool and the best benchmark we have for DPS in this game.
You are loosing DPS! ANYTHING that causes you to deviate from your ideal rotation, or causes downtime on buffs/debuffs will cause you to lose DPS. Primarily, this is because you have to follow mechanics. This is what separates good players from great players. How well can you maintain a rotation while also following mechanics.
How do you stop loosing (too much) DPS? PRACTICE!!!!!!!!! Practice your rotation in a static optimal environment (raid dummy) and practice the fight itself. Every RL fight is going to have it's own limitations on the numbers you can pull, but you likely wont hit that ceiling until you have done the fight a bunch of times AND you have your rotation on lock.
Short version You seem to be complaining here mostly about food buffs on a raid dummy, which honestly is a nonsense debate. On a raid dummy, a lot of people run parse food. This is not an attempt to pad numbers, its an attempt to remove sustain from the equation and to be consistent for comparison purposes.
An ideal DPS rotation in this game involves no heavy attacks or mandatory sustain skills (spell sym, etc). The one thing that is often missed here is that yes, this might put you in a place with unrealistic health, it misses the other side of the coin which is that in a good raid group, your sustain is better than a target dummy, and most fights have recovery phases built into the fight in one form or another. I can't think of a single fight in the game where i am required to not move an parse for 4 minutes straight.
This is barely an issue currently, because most classes run the vamp spam now, at least on magic. When I parse on live, I run bi stat food, because parse food really doesnt change the outcome in a significant way. Also, some classes/ specs can absolutely run Parse food for certain content. Raids give you health, and sufficient health for a given piece of content is highly subjective.
TLDR:
-The best measurement of DPS is 100% a trial Dummy. This myth of someone that can pull 90k+ on a dummy but cant pull decent damage in a raid is something that I simply havent seen, and I have been in a lot of raids.
-If you want to improve your DPS, well, it starts with practice on a dummy. Full Stop.
Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on June 24, 2020 9:30PM12 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, I can agree that trial dummy might be misleading if your trial group is not fully organized. And of course trial dummy is relevant mostly for trials, if you are speaking about dungeons and especially pugging vdlc, you'll generally need more resilient setup then you use for trial dummy.
Imo, best way is to do BOTH trial dummy and 6M dummy parses. Trial dummy is measurement of your speed of weaving, speed of animation cancelling, while 6M is more about measuring your resilience and ability to manage resources. Because over-use of resources on 6M will immediately screw all parse, while on trial dummy synergy might compensate for that.
As for the mechanics... those mechanics are created with certain dps expectations, if group dps is insufficient... of course you can overcome dps check eventually one way or another, but that is not panacea and that leads nowhere. Well, of course you will have better group connection and synergy after over-coming dps checks by alternative tactics. But as soon as you'll be in another group, this won't worth much.0 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭I show up to our trial groups with my measly 32K DPS and do just fine. The trial leader goes over mechanics before each boss, where to stand, what attacks to block, what attacks to avoid, timing and position of adds, etc. Than 3...2...1...go. During the fight he will also call out mechanics, adds and resurrects. It’s a well oiled machine as you would expect trial groups to be. We are on XB1 so nobody is really hung up on parse numbers or who dies or who misses mechanics. Instructions are calm and clear, if we wipe than we wipe and go again. Wipes are usually a major error, and when we screw up we own up to it right away. No finger pointing to tanks, healers or DPS for not knowing their role.
In the end when the boss dies we win, sometimes the fights get a little hairy and we come back from the brink a few times, other times we melt through because we are on point. There are highs and lows but we laugh it off and get back after it. It’s only just a game after all.4 -
maddiniiLuna✭✭✭✭Everest_Lionheart wrote: »I show up to our trial groups with my measly 32K DPS and do just fine. The trial leader goes over mechanics before each boss, where to stand, what attacks to block, what attacks to avoid, timing and position of adds, etc. Than 3...2...1...go. During the fight he will also call out mechanics, adds and resurrects. It’s a well oiled machine as you would expect trial groups to be. We are on XB1 so nobody is really hung up on parse numbers or who dies or who misses mechanics. Instructions are calm and clear, if we wipe than we wipe and go again. Wipes are usually a major error, and when we screw up we own up to it right away. No finger pointing to tanks, healers or DPS for not knowing their role.
In the end when the boss dies we win, sometimes the fights get a little hairy and we come back from the brink a few times, other times we melt through because we are on point. There are highs and lows but we laugh it off and get back after it. It’s only just a game after all.
Thank you. This is what i was waiting for. On PC it's no different. You don't necessarily need 50k DPS to do these types of content, yet they are demanded. I've completed many hundred veteran trials in my years with eso, some of which i was having 30k dps myself. Over the years it increased significantly, but i know it's possible and it doesn't make the content any harder then what people want to make you believe.
I'm deliberately trying to not say anything to the other posts, as i do believe in every body should be allowed their own opinion. But i have to say, that i did feel like some people were disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing, standing in controversy with their own previous statements.1 -
MudcrabAttack✭✭✭✭✭If you want you can get Hodor Reflexes add-on to display the single target Boss DPS alongside Total DPS which includes AOE. It can be shared with a group.
But yeah after joining another trial guild I see an overexaggerated demand for DPS for certain trials where it's not needed. Like they're asking around 30% more dps than another guild just to do the same non-HM vet trial where 1st timers are encouraged to join.
I think it might be driven by the lack of tanks and healers maybeEdited by MudcrabAttack on June 25, 2020 6:48PM1 -
BeamsForDemacia✭✭✭@Oreyn_Bearclaw one of the best posts ive ever read, cant add much more, and yes some inexperienced ppl/leads expect too much dps indeed, i did crag trials hm with 20k+ on 3 mio dummy (i think i was medium in the group) and we did vmol with dds doing 30-40k on 3mio back in the days, which is approximately 50k on raid dummy maybe even more, so hitting 50k on raid dummy is really not hard and not much , 70k+ is definitely not needed for most trialsIR/GH/TTT/GS [MEDUSA]2
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Danksta✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭A few people are saying that "x dps" isn't needed to clear content and that is true but you have to realize, different groups have different goals. Some groups aren't looking to just clear. They may have specific score/achievement goals in mind that wouldn't be achievable with lower dps.BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BeamsForDemacia wrote: »@Oreyn_Bearclaw one of the best posts ive ever read, cant add much more, and yes some inexperienced ppl/leads expect too much dps indeed, i did crag trials hm with 20k+ on 3 mio dummy (i think i was medium in the group) and we did vmol with dds doing 30-40k on 3mio back in the days, which is approximately 50k on raid dummy maybe even more, so hitting 50k on raid dummy is really not hard and not much , 70k+ is definitely not needed for most trials
@BeamsForDemacia
We were I believe (dont want to start a pissing match here) the 3rd clear of VMOL HM on PC NA (might have been 4th). This was back when it actually took months on live to clear new HM content. I was on a sorc and had backroom duty. I want to say that my parse on that HM fight for our first clear was like 15k. We took him all the way to pad 5 after doing one lunar phase (most people dont even know what lunar phase is these days, haha).
At that time, cracking 40k on the twins was god tier, and breaking 30k was not trivial. That was also about the time we got trial dummies, and 40k on a 3 mil was a really strong parse. Now I shoot for about 70-75k on a Rakkhat HM pull if I dont have to do backroom, and there are people way above that.
You absolutely don't need crazy DPS for really any content. There are very few true DPS checks in this game, but they do exist. There are LOTS of soft DPS checks, most essentially mean you can skip a mechanic or two.
Every raid group is different. Some want to teach. Some have goals for a smooth clear. Some are going for specific achievements or score. People can ultimately set any requirement they want.
I am in a new guild that has, IMO, a great system. We basically have Tiers that you can achieve from 1-5 as a DPS. I wont go into all the details, but basically anyone is a tier 1, and tier 5 requires a clear of all content on HM and a parse on a trial dummy north of 90k (only real restrictions are self buffed, and no Thrassian). Tier 3 for example requires a 70k trial dummy parse, and most Non HM vet trial clears.
Each week they post raids at all tier levels. You have the ability to sign up for any trial at your level or below. If I am in a tier 5 raid, I know we are going for score, and I expect it to be competitive among the DPS. If I am in a tier 2 raid, I know its going to be an adventure, and nobody cares in the slightest about your damage.
maddiniiLuna wrote: »
Thank you. This is what i was waiting for. On PC it's no different. You don't necessarily need 50k DPS to do these types of content, yet they are demanded. I've completed many hundred veteran trials in my years with eso, some of which i was having 30k dps myself. Over the years it increased significantly, but i know it's possible and it doesn't make the content any harder then what people want to make you believe.
I'm deliberately trying to not say anything to the other posts, as i do believe in every body should be allowed their own opinion. But i have to say, that i did feel like some people were disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing, standing in controversy with their own previous statements.
Again, not totally sure what you mean by 50k. 50k on every fight? Nobody needs that (but plenty of groups have it). 50k on a trial dummy? Really not that hard to achieve these days. I dont believe that is a crazy requirement for almost any vet trial content. To pull 50k on a trial dummy, you basically need purple gear, a handful of CP, and a very basic handle on a simple rotation, but again, that does take some work. At that level, its more about requiring people to have a basic understanding of game mechanics than overwhelming DPS.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on June 25, 2020 6:12PM3 -
T3hasiangod✭✭✭✭✭maddiniiLuna wrote: »...asking 50k - 60k DPS is just unrealistic.
If people tell you, that every player for vet trials should do 50k+ DPS just tell them they suffer from a reality loss here.
I'll just leave this here then.
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Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭1 -
nud3_voxel✭✭✭While it's true that some dummy warriors can't pull their weight in raid, it's also true that If people can't dps on a dummy they won't be able to DPS in raid.9
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Shantu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nud3_voxel wrote: »While it's true that some dummy warriors can't pull their weight in raid, it's also true that If people can't dps on a dummy they won't be able to DPS in raid.
It's also true that if someone is unwilling to invest in the effort to improve DPS, they will also be unlikely to do the work to improve their performance in a vet trial group. Improving DPS is not that hard, but it takes commitment, focus, and practice...the same thing for raids.
So while a dummy DPS is not the endpoint of measurable performance, it is a valid indicator.8 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
It's also true that if someone is unwilling to invest in the effort to improve DPS, they will also be unlikely to do the work to improve their performance in a vet trial group. Improving DPS is not that hard, but it takes commitment, focus, and practice...the same thing for raids.
So while a dummy DPS is not the endpoint of measurable performance, it is a valid indicator.
Very True.
The honest thing is. While yes older groups did complete content with lower DPS, does that REALLY mean its a good thing to do it now?
They lacked SOOOO much systems we have now. Bloodthirst + 2hs being literally 2 pieces on set bonuses. Newer sets.
Let me put it like this: You can prolly do every single 4 man Vet DLC HM in green gear/green enchantments. WIll you? Prolly not. You can do all these <Raid included> encounters w/o olo or ANY sustain sets. Will you? Prolly not. Same thing for DPS. If you can hit higher numbers, then why not attempt it?4 -
Some very good points here mechanics are important I only reason I see that groups want higher like 80,90k is cause they wanna skip mechs or leaderboard score,speed run.There was a time when 3 mil test was only one groups wanted off you times have changed lol depends on group but I see anything above 30k acceptable on 3 mill,21 mill dummy is good but in raid wouldn't just be one person fighting the boss 😂I'm practicing on it currently I'll be honest it's tough im not a expert player,just someone who wants to improve enough to clear content.0 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭TwilightAngel_89 wrote: »Some very good points here mechanics are important I only reason I see that groups want higher like 80,90k is cause they wanna skip mechs or leaderboard score,speed run.There was a time when 3 mil test was only one groups wanted off you times have changed lol depends on group but I see anything above 30k acceptable on 3 mill,21 mill dummy is good but in raid wouldn't just be one person fighting the boss 😂I'm practicing on it currently I'll be honest it's tough im not a expert player,just someone who wants to improve enough to clear content.
The 21mil trial dummy gives you buffs, debuffs and synergies which gets you closer to what you would expect in a group setting, but honestly in a strong group you’ll get even more buffs, debuffs and synergies. As much as whooping up on a target that doesn’t fight back can help you lock in a rotation sometimes that all goes out the window because of mechanics. You will rarely get the chance to hit the same buttons for 5 minutes in a row without having to deal with some mechanic or run to the other side of the room to deal with a different enemy. That’s what makes the game interesting though. Otherwise it would just be a DPS race and DPS races are boring.0 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Everest_Lionheart wrote: »I show up to our trial groups with my measly 32K DPS and do just fine. The trial leader goes over mechanics before each boss, where to stand, what attacks to block, what attacks to avoid, timing and position of adds, etc. Than 3...2...1...go. During the fight he will also call out mechanics, adds and resurrects. It’s a well oiled machine as you would expect trial groups to be. We are on XB1 so nobody is really hung up on parse numbers or who dies or who misses mechanics. Instructions are calm and clear, if we wipe than we wipe and go again. Wipes are usually a major error, and when we screw up we own up to it right away. No finger pointing to tanks, healers or DPS for not knowing their role.
In the end when the boss dies we win, sometimes the fights get a little hairy and we come back from the brink a few times, other times we melt through because we are on point. There are highs and lows but we laugh it off and get back after it. It’s only just a game after all.
This sounds very much like my guild and exactly how the game should be played.
Anyone telling me I need a certain DPS or a certain set or certain collection of skills active can kick rocks.
Those arbitrary "50k" "90k" requirements are wholly unnecessary.Edited by amm7sb14_ESO on July 1, 2020 9:44PM1 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Very True.
The honest thing is. While yes older groups did complete content with lower DPS, does that REALLY mean its a good thing to do it now?
They lacked SOOOO much systems we have now. Bloodthirst + 2hs being literally 2 pieces on set bonuses. Newer sets.
Let me put it like this: You can prolly do every single 4 man Vet DLC HM in green gear/green enchantments. WIll you? Prolly not. You can do all these <Raid included> encounters w/o olo or ANY sustain sets. Will you? Prolly not. Same thing for DPS. If you can hit higher numbers, then why not attempt it?
Because perhaps Olo or those other sets in question don't fit the concept and playstyle of our character?0 -
martijnlv40✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
This sounds very much like my guild and exactly how the game should be played.
Anyone telling me I need a certain DPS or a certain set or certain collection of skills active can kick rocks.
Those arbitrary "50k" "90k" requirements are wholly unnecessary.
For my guild leader, who hosts guild raids, the DPS requirement is mostly for people he never raided with before. He wants to get some idea that they know what they are doing before jumping into stuff they will find harder. Once he grasps what a person is good at, how they run and how quickly they learn, he doesn't really care anymore. It's just that a lot of people in my guild are around 45k on a trial dummy or never practiced on one, while if they did, they would improve drastically. We learn them to weave, change around rotations and teach them about buffs, debuffs and mechanics. If a person says their DPS is around 50k, they often don't grasps a lot of things and it's just best for everyone if they practice a day or two on their combat.1 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
This sounds very much like my guild and exactly how the game should be played.
Anyone telling me I need a certain DPS or a certain set or certain collection of skills active can kick rocks.
Those arbitrary "50k" "90k" requirements are wholly unnecessary.
And which vet dlc trials has your guild cleared with this attitude? Probably none, unless you're being carried hard. Also low dps puts way more pressure on tanks.
"Play as you want" is kinda selfish and has no place in endgame imo.4 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭
And which vet dlc trials has your guild cleared with this attitude? Probably none, unless you're being carried hard. Also low dps puts way more pressure on tanks.
"Play as you want" is kinda selfish and has no place in endgame imo.
Vet trails they are asking 40-45K minimum for most a few may dip to 35K but they are willing to carry 1 or 2. Most of the vet group is at around 70-75K. I’m still clearing normals to get my gear and CP up for vet. There is crossover and they really are willing to teach. Even on the normals they explain some vet mechanics to prepare us for the next levels. It’s a solid group willing to work with what we’ve got. Tanks and heals are so calm, helps keep us settled even under the most extreme pressure.0 -
maddiniiLuna✭✭✭✭So i haven't responded in a while, but i have read at least most of the comments here.
Do i think you should go for your highest achievable DPS?
It's certainly something to work forward to, but i'm going to say no. The reason being, that a game is supposed to be fun and in my opinion you should focus more on achieving a fixed DPS that you can comfortably hold. Work on maintaining a good DPS, rather then aiming for the highest possible. Then once you know you can pull the same DPS everywhere it is absolutely cool to aim for the highest amount of DPS you can get. There is just no point in trying for 80k DPS, when you fluctuate heavily between 20 and 40k DPS. Learn rotation and mechanics first!
I'm not questioning the trial dummy being a good indicator - I am questioning the fact, that random groups ask for 60k+ as a bottom limit for trials, while the 60k+ players that que up for this usually can not perform under pressure. Damn how many times have you been in vSS (just an example) and have failed miserably with 60k+ DPS, because they couldn't deliver? For me personally all i say is: It was a few! Group disbanded on the first boss because low DPS, when everybody posted their DPS parse. People die on mechanics that are as simple as "Hold Block".
This has happened to me: My main DD not fully equipped i do "only" 58k DPS. I've done vSS 100 times on the Tank and know every single mechanic out of my head. I tell the raid lead this and he goes "No we need people with 60k+". I never got in the trial, but i know what happened from others. First boss: Wipe, wipe, disband. Okay i meanwhile easily go over 58k DPS, but that's not my point.
People are being limited in their activities by unrealistic (i say this a lot) expectations from society. Yes there is individuals who can achieve and maintain a very high dps. Usually those type of people run guild trials and rarely random groups. My opinion is, that you shouldn't be asking for 60k DPS, just because everyone else does. The funny thing is, as mentioned before i've done it like 100 times on a Tank and people actually have 30k dps and complete this trial just by knowing mechanics and avoiding aoe's.0 -
Athyrium93✭✭✭✭Threads like this make me wonder why anyone wants to play DPS in this game. What's the point in even trying when 3/4th of players are struggling to get over 30K? Or the newer player struggling to get over 20k or even 10k?
I'm not saying those end game players pulling these numbers don't deserve to be, but man is it demoralizing when you spend weeks or months practicing rotations and farming gear and you still can't hit the absolute bottom tier to even be considered in most even some what active guilds. It is tough hearing that people pulling double or triple your DPS and are still being told to 'git gud' so I imagine it is why a lot of new players don't stick with the game very long, they grind like crazy to get to CP160 so they can get their gear, then grind like crazy to get it, then get told they suck and should just give up. So they do.
It makes me so glad I rolled a healer as my main so I don't have to deal with it any where near as much. I think it's cool that skill dictates such a large portion of DPS in this game, but no one pulling 40k+ DPS sucks, and you really shouldn't make it sound like it does. It might not be enough for some groups, and that's fine, but that isn't anywhere near bad DPS.
TLDR:
Be mindful that newer players trying to improve read these forums too and seeing 40k+ DPS called bad can be really discouraging to them when they are struggling to hit half that.1 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭maddiniiLuna wrote: »So i haven't responded in a while, but i have read at least most of the comments here.
Do i think you should go for your highest achievable DPS?
It's certainly something to work forward to, but i'm going to say no. The reason being, that a game is supposed to be fun and in my opinion you should focus more on achieving a fixed DPS that you can comfortably hold. Work on maintaining a good DPS, rather then aiming for the highest possible. Then once you know you can pull the same DPS everywhere it is absolutely cool to aim for the highest amount of DPS you can get. There is just no point in trying for 80k DPS, when you fluctuate heavily between 20 and 40k DPS. Learn rotation and mechanics first!
I'm not questioning the trial dummy being a good indicator - I am questioning the fact, that random groups ask for 60k+ as a bottom limit for trials, while the 60k+ players that que up for this usually can not perform under pressure. Damn how many times have you been in vSS (just an example) and have failed miserably with 60k+ DPS, because they couldn't deliver? For me personally all i say is: It was a few! Group disbanded on the first boss because low DPS, when everybody posted their DPS parse. People die on mechanics that are as simple as "Hold Block".
This has happened to me: My main DD not fully equipped i do "only" 58k DPS. I've done vSS 100 times on the Tank and know every single mechanic out of my head. I tell the raid lead this and he goes "No we need people with 60k+". I never got in the trial, but i know what happened from others. First boss: Wipe, wipe, disband. Okay i meanwhile easily go over 58k DPS, but that's not my point.
People are being limited in their activities by unrealistic (i say this a lot) expectations from society. Yes there is individuals who can achieve and maintain a very high dps. Usually those type of people run guild trials and rarely random groups. My opinion is, that you shouldn't be asking for 60k DPS, just because everyone else does. The funny thing is, as mentioned before i've done it like 100 times on a Tank and people actually have 30k dps and complete this trial just by knowing mechanics and avoiding aoe's.
I think that 60k dps is more about people actually knowing a bit about the character they are playing, and how to have a semblance of a rotation, rather than the actual number. Basic things such as reactivating dots on cooldown, and using a spammable while waiting to reapply dots. Not even talking about light attack weaving. 60k dps does not seem over the top imo, especially for vet dlc trials.Edited by carlos424 on July 7, 2020 5:57PM2 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭Athyrium93 wrote: »Threads like this make me wonder why anyone wants to play DPS in this game. What's the point in even trying when 3/4th of players are struggling to get over 30K? Or the newer player struggling to get over 20k or even 10k?
I'm not saying those end game players pulling these numbers don't deserve to be, but man is it demoralizing when you spend weeks or months practicing rotations and farming gear and you still can't hit the absolute bottom tier to even be considered in most even some what active guilds. It is tough hearing that people pulling double or triple your DPS and are still being told to 'git gud' so I imagine it is why a lot of new players don't stick with the game very long, they grind like crazy to get to CP160 so they can get their gear, then grind like crazy to get it, then get told they suck and should just give up. So they do.
It makes me so glad I rolled a healer as my main so I don't have to deal with it any where near as much. I think it's cool that skill dictates such a large portion of DPS in this game, but no one pulling 40k+ DPS sucks, and you really shouldn't make it sound like it does. It might not be enough for some groups, and that's fine, but that isn't anywhere near bad DPS.
TLDR:
Be mindful that newer players trying to improve read these forums too and seeing 40k+ DPS called bad can be really discouraging to them when they are struggling to hit half that.
You are talking about the 21m dummy right? If a person is just getting to cp 160 then, ya, they will struggle to hit 30k on the 21m. You really don’t belong in vet trials at cp 160. Now, normal trials, sure. Go for it. If I had to guess, I would say that, if you have an 810cp toon that you hit 70k with, and put all the same gear on the same cp160 toon, you would probably only get 25-30k.
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Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭Athyrium93 wrote: »Threads like this make me wonder why anyone wants to play DPS in this game. What's the point in even trying when 3/4th of players are struggling to get over 30K? Or the newer player struggling to get over 20k or even 10k?
I'm not saying those end game players pulling these numbers don't deserve to be, but man is it demoralizing when you spend weeks or months practicing rotations and farming gear and you still can't hit the absolute bottom tier to even be considered in most even some what active guilds. It is tough hearing that people pulling double or triple your DPS and are still being told to 'git gud' so I imagine it is why a lot of new players don't stick with the game very long, they grind like crazy to get to CP160 so they can get their gear, then grind like crazy to get it, then get told they suck and should just give up. So they do.
It makes me so glad I rolled a healer as my main so I don't have to deal with it any where near as much. I think it's cool that skill dictates such a large portion of DPS in this game, but no one pulling 40k+ DPS sucks, and you really shouldn't make it sound like it does. It might not be enough for some groups, and that's fine, but that isn't anywhere near bad DPS.
TLDR:
Be mindful that newer players trying to improve read these forums too and seeing 40k+ DPS called bad can be really discouraging to them when they are struggling to hit half that.
Well it is a progression to get there for sure. There is no regular content in this game that comes even remotely close to needing 10K DPS to complete let alone 40K, 60K or 90K. There is minimal content that even taxes a players sustain which is one of the real keys to unlocking DPS potential in the first place.
There is a lot to digest and unpack especially for a new player. It starts with basic weaving and the game doesn’t really teach that but it’s a skill new players should pick up quickly. From there it’s equipment and skills followed by food, enchants, potions, gear sets, and eventually champion points. And that’s just the basics. Nowhere is it taught why you slot certain skills on certain bars that provide buffs to improve damage output, mitigation or healing. This is all stuff that has to be researched or taught in progression types of guilds.
The game is complex and takes time to learn. New players need guidance, veteran players stuck at the 20-30K bubble need practice. But in the end it still comes down to mechanics and yes at times DPS is also a mechanic, but it’s not the only mechanic. The post above yours is a perfect example of that. 60K static DPS ignoring mechanics can’t beat certain content where 30K competent DPS that knows mechanics can pass the same content. We had that discussion with a new guy in our guild last night looking for some CP810 to finish some content. One of our guys explained it to him and the mechanics of the particular content he was stuck on and they walked right though it with a bunch of CP300-600 players.
I still think ZOS needs to do more to teach mechanics about how all this works. If undaunted had a couple tutorial missions with NPC’s going over basic mechanics of DPS, tanking and healing that would help a ton. Teach people when to stack on a boss and when to spread out. Teach the tanks how to spin a boss off the DPS, teach the healers how position themselves to cover a boss fight with several adds.
If the game would give people more direction the numbers would improve across the board.1
