Stamplars in Greymoor?

MurderMostFoul

Jman100582 wrote: »

personally i run 1 kena 1 balorgh, 5 ravager, 5 stuhn. Stuhn backbar, brp dw frontbar. eventually gonna run balorgh once i get the right pieces. Caltrops is a must on the build, as well as tactician from the cp passives. Caltrops will end up keeping almost 100% uptime on both sets, as well as snare and major fracture. Unique and works decently well

I like it! I've always felt that Caltrops+Ravager would be great on a Stamplar Brawler. Adding Stuhn's for the AOE proc on any player set off balance from Tactician (or any other source) looks really nice.

But it wouldn't be so great in noCP/BGs unfortunately.

katorga

Alendrin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

sniperfire03 wrote: »

Deadly front bar stuhns body balorgh monster with toppling charge. 2 hvy 5 med. Drop a rune a go to work. Your welcome!!!!!!!

I'll be honest I'm not a fan of deadly as it doesn't buff things like burning light, light and heavy attacks, the initial dmg of db/spear ult etc.
Maybe if running multiple dots like maelstrom 2h or master dw etc, otherwise I feel like it's not worth.

Have you tried it? I was having similar doubts but then I put it on and now I can't take it off! lol

Yes, interesting thing about deadly is that it is not shown in tooltip and is applied to target, not to you. So it's not bonus like minor berserk, which has diminishing returns in CP due to how +% damage done bonuses work in formula, but it is making target receive 20% more damage from jabs and dots, so you may say it increases all damage by plain 20%. But base WD&penetration is important too, if they are not sufficient then NMA will be better... so Deadly become good due to new Balorgh it seems.

Explain how +% damage has diminishing returns? My understanding is they are summed, 25+8=33%, etc. Additive or multiplicative, I did not think any positive increase could diminish.

It's technically not diminishing returns as the arithmetic increase of the base damage is equal to the stated +% damage, like the +25% damage from Malacath's for example. But, if you have any other source of +% damage, the actual damage increase you get is less than 25% when going from:

No Malacath's Band
to
Malacath's Band equipped.

And the actual damage increase is lessened further the more +% damage increase you have before equipping the ring.

To illustrate:

No +% damage-
100% -> Equip Malacath -> 125% -> 25% increase

Minor Berserk
108% -> Equip Malacath -> 133% -> 23.15% increase (25/108)

Minor Berserk+2H Sword Passive
114% -> Equip Malacath -> 139% -> 21.93% increase (25/114)

I've seen this referred to as appreciating/depreciating returns, which is probably more accurate. In your last example, you still get 39% more damage. In a real diminishing returns scenario you would get some less than a 39% increase in damage. I wanted to check to make sure there was not a "real" diminishing return there, because ... ZOS Math.

You do not get 39% more damage, you get 21.93% more damage. The 39% increase is what would be implied by tooltips.

In an example from game, I tested malacath on my Warden with a training dummy, and with passives, minor berserk, and various cp % gains the ring of Malacath increased my damage by 16.2%. Removing the % gain CP (while keeping magicka the same) to test the no-cp equivalent, I got a 20% damage increase with Malacath.

The only way to test is remove ALL modifiers, test. Add ALL modifiers, test, and validate that damage is increased by the sum total of all of the +% damage modifiers. You cannot compare them adding one at a time. Hard to do because there are so many other variables that might change like magicka, etc. I think you are getting the full 25% but you never really know how ZOS is computing things.

Alendrin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

sniperfire03 wrote: »

Deadly front bar stuhns body balorgh monster with toppling charge. 2 hvy 5 med. Drop a rune a go to work. Your welcome!!!!!!!

I'll be honest I'm not a fan of deadly as it doesn't buff things like burning light, light and heavy attacks, the initial dmg of db/spear ult etc.
Maybe if running multiple dots like maelstrom 2h or master dw etc, otherwise I feel like it's not worth.

Have you tried it? I was having similar doubts but then I put it on and now I can't take it off! lol

Yes, interesting thing about deadly is that it is not shown in tooltip and is applied to target, not to you. So it's not bonus like minor berserk, which has diminishing returns in CP due to how +% damage done bonuses work in formula, but it is making target receive 20% more damage from jabs and dots, so you may say it increases all damage by plain 20%. But base WD&penetration is important too, if they are not sufficient then NMA will be better... so Deadly become good due to new Balorgh it seems.

Explain how +% damage has diminishing returns? My understanding is they are summed, 25+8=33%, etc. Additive or multiplicative, I did not think any positive increase could diminish.

It's technically not diminishing returns as the arithmetic increase of the base damage is equal to the stated +% damage, like the +25% damage from Malacath's for example. But, if you have any other source of +% damage, the actual damage increase you get is less than 25% when going from:

No Malacath's Band
to
Malacath's Band equipped.

And the actual damage increase is lessened further the more +% damage increase you have before equipping the ring.

To illustrate:

No +% damage-
100% -> Equip Malacath -> 125% -> 25% increase

Minor Berserk
108% -> Equip Malacath -> 133% -> 23.15% increase (25/108)

Minor Berserk+2H Sword Passive
114% -> Equip Malacath -> 139% -> 21.93% increase (25/114)

I've seen this referred to as appreciating/depreciating returns, which is probably more accurate. In your last example, you still get 39% more damage. In a real diminishing returns scenario you would get some less than a 39% increase in damage. I wanted to check to make sure there was not a "real" diminishing return there, because ... ZOS Math.

You do not get 39% more damage, you get 21.93% more damage. The 39% increase is what would be implied by tooltips.

In an example from game, I tested malacath on my Warden with a training dummy, and with passives, minor berserk, and various cp % gains the ring of Malacath increased my damage by 16.2%. Removing the % gain CP (while keeping magicka the same) to test the no-cp equivalent, I got a 20% damage increase with Malacath.

The 39% increase is what would be implied by tooltips.

Exactly my point. We are saying the same thing from opposite sides of the paradox. As long as you measure the delta between two +% damage modified tool tips, the result will be less than the sum of all of +% damage modifiers. That is the paradox, or math trap, with additive +% modifiers.

Rhaegar75

I've been monitoring various options with various chars (malubeth, balorgh, sellis etc.) and I'm not impressed with any (unless we are talking engine guardian on my magsorc...but hey magsorc is easy mode anyway).

I'm more and more keen on dropping the monster set option to have 2 x 5 sets and a mythic item. Torc is my next target for my stamplar.

MurderMostFoul

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

I've been monitoring various options with various chars (malubeth, balorgh, sellis etc.) and I'm not impressed with any (unless we are talking engine guardian on my magsorc...but hey magsorc is easy mode anyway).

I'm more and more keen on dropping the monster set option to have 2 x 5 sets and a mythic item. Torc is my next target for my stamplar.

If you run a backbar proc set, you'll have room for a monster set and a Mythic item.

But I could always trade a monster set for potentates x 2. It's defense without relying on a proc, and the easy access to gold jewelry is nice.

However, one downside to potentates x 2 versus a monster set is the fact that you are only getting one bonus out of two pieces whereas a monster set gives you two bonuses from two pieces.

West93

Try trollking with eternal vigor + offensive set and everything else dumped into weapon damage, wear couple well fitted pieces.

Extended ritual, vigor, 2 roll dodges and your health goes from 20% to 100%.

BaiterOfZergs

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

I can confirm, by dummy test, that Balorgh>Slime Craw, even with consuming minimal Ultimate to cast Crescent Sweep.

I'm not to interested in defensive Proc sets, as my BG Stamplar is highly mobile, with low resistance and high damage, looking to get in and out of fights quickly. That play style doesn't really jive with defensive proc sets that require longer engagements to feel useful. (I do see synergy with Engine Guardian, but that cheese is too funky)

Looking at other offensive sets beyond Balorgh, the only ones that catch my eye are Selenes and Kra'gh. I start my combo at range, so these two sets would avoid wasted procs. But Kra'gh's damage is meh and everyone knows to avoid Selene.

IDK, but the consistent, reliable proc from Balorgh just seems like a safe bet.

Balorgh, proc'ed at 80 Ult, provides a buff equal 80% of a 5-piece bonus, and about 186% of a one piece bonus. Any one know how that compares in ZOS's standardization scheme?

You’re looking at “defensive sets” in the wrong light. Bloodspawn procs with little engagement. I’ve used it in no cp bgs and open world and run high mobility low resistance builds in outnumbered fights. And it doesn’t matter how agile you are you’re going to get hit, that’s with major expedition & being able to roll a lot.

Bloodspawn works better in open world but it still has uses in bgs since higher mmr usually have teams stacked on top of each other and as a stamplar you eventually have to engage.

And engine guardian really isn’t cheesy , people are just late to catch on. One of my stamplars used that for years in no cp. It always could proc on “cool down” which was nonexistent because it procs in the middle of a proc. Nothing new really besides getting less resources.

Firstmep

I really hope they address the survivability issue of stamplars next patch, in no cp it just feels awful. I've literally tried running 6k wpd build with malubeth and my vigor was ticking for like 2.5k, and that's not even a realistic build for bgs.
Its sad that on the orig healing class were better off running health Recovery than actual healing skills.
Meanwhile wardens can just hold block and not even punished for speccing into high hp Beacuse of arctic blast, not mention vines etc. It's just feels awful.
In cp the low healing isnt as much of an issue, but in no cp I haven't seen a stamplar that had decent survivability on a damage build.
My stamsorc can literally monkey around with full procsets with like 2k wpd and I don't even have to worry about my vigor dropping since crit surge just sustains my hp easily through most things.

West93

Firstmep wrote: »

I really hope they address the survivability issue of stamplars next patch, in no cp it just feels awful. I've literally tried running 6k wpd build with malubeth and my vigor was ticking for like 2.5k, and that's not even a realistic build for bgs.
Its sad that on the orig healing class were better off running health Recovery than actual healing skills.
Meanwhile wardens can just hold block and not even punished for speccing into high hp Beacuse of arctic blast, not mention vines etc. It's just feels awful.
In cp the low healing isnt as much of an issue, but in no cp I haven't seen a stamplar that had decent survivability on a damage build.
My stamsorc can literally monkey around with full procsets with like 2k wpd and I don't even have to worry about my vigor dropping since crit surge just sustains my hp easily through most things.

I agree in no cp stamplar completely suck, that's why I avoid no cp pvp it's just too much unfair.

I doubt zos will listen, they probably gonna nerf jabs and leave stamplar healing as it is and buff nightblades and sorcs because that's the majority class people play and ask for buffs.

What a joke.

MurderMostFoul

West93 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I really hope they address the survivability issue of stamplars next patch, in no cp it just feels awful. I've literally tried running 6k wpd build with malubeth and my vigor was ticking for like 2.5k, and that's not even a realistic build for bgs.
Its sad that on the orig healing class were better off running health Recovery than actual healing skills.
Meanwhile wardens can just hold block and not even punished for speccing into high hp Beacuse of arctic blast, not mention vines etc. It's just feels awful.
In cp the low healing isnt as much of an issue, but in no cp I haven't seen a stamplar that had decent survivability on a damage build.
My stamsorc can literally monkey around with full procsets with like 2k wpd and I don't even have to worry about my vigor dropping since crit surge just sustains my hp easily through most things.

I agree in no cp stamplar completely suck, that's why I avoid no cp pvp it's just too much unfair.

I doubt zos will listen, they probably gonna nerf jabs and leave stamplar healing as it is and buff nightblades and sorcs because that's the majority class people play and ask for buffs.

What a joke.

Not true.

I've done fine on my Stamplar in BGs this patch. Is it more challenging? Yes. But you can still be highly effective.

In Bgs, stam classes that don't have very strong class defenses or escape tools have to pick between being able to deal a lot of damage or take a lot of damage. You really can't do both. If you are like most people and you want to deal a lot of damage, then you have to pair your damage with high mobility and play a hit-and-run style.

Firstmep

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I really hope they address the survivability issue of stamplars next patch, in no cp it just feels awful. I've literally tried running 6k wpd build with malubeth and my vigor was ticking for like 2.5k, and that's not even a realistic build for bgs.
Its sad that on the orig healing class were better off running health Recovery than actual healing skills.
Meanwhile wardens can just hold block and not even punished for speccing into high hp Beacuse of arctic blast, not mention vines etc. It's just feels awful.
In cp the low healing isnt as much of an issue, but in no cp I haven't seen a stamplar that had decent survivability on a damage build.
My stamsorc can literally monkey around with full procsets with like 2k wpd and I don't even have to worry about my vigor dropping since crit surge just sustains my hp easily through most things.

I agree in no cp stamplar completely suck, that's why I avoid no cp pvp it's just too much unfair.

I doubt zos will listen, they probably gonna nerf jabs and leave stamplar healing as it is and buff nightblades and sorcs because that's the majority class people play and ask for buffs.

What a joke.

Not true.

I've done fine on my Stamplar in BGs this patch. Is it more challenging? Yes. But you can still be highly effective.

In Bgs, stam classes that don't have very strong class defenses or escape tools have to pick between being able to deal a lot of damage or take a lot of damage. You really can't do both. If you are like most people and you want to deal a lot of damage, then you have to pair your damage with high mobility and play a hit-and-run style.

Problem is in high mmr bgs its very common to have at least 1 healer on each team, this paired with people that never split from their group and the massive aoe spam with procsets is very hard to deal with on stamplar.
In bgs where people split off from their groups stamplars can shine, but as soon as people ball up its pretty painful.
Also high mobility is nice, until your realise that you have very little defense and have to leave your teammates behind, which can often cause them to fold to pressure aganist higher numbers.
At any rate, i still think that stamplar needs some better form of defense , some kind of a decent hot, not ritual, which btw is easily outpaced by health recovery.
Also stamplar has no built in mobility like stamsorc or nb, so you are basically just sprinting to LOS, hoping someone on the other teams dont have a gapcloser.
Is it unplayable? No. But then again neither is my magblade, and my healing on that toon is actually higher than on stamplar.

West93

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I really hope they address the survivability issue of stamplars next patch, in no cp it just feels awful. I've literally tried running 6k wpd build with malubeth and my vigor was ticking for like 2.5k, and that's not even a realistic build for bgs.
Its sad that on the orig healing class were better off running health Recovery than actual healing skills.
Meanwhile wardens can just hold block and not even punished for speccing into high hp Beacuse of arctic blast, not mention vines etc. It's just feels awful.
In cp the low healing isnt as much of an issue, but in no cp I haven't seen a stamplar that had decent survivability on a damage build.
My stamsorc can literally monkey around with full procsets with like 2k wpd and I don't even have to worry about my vigor dropping since crit surge just sustains my hp easily through most things.

I agree in no cp stamplar completely suck, that's why I avoid no cp pvp it's just too much unfair.

I doubt zos will listen, they probably gonna nerf jabs and leave stamplar healing as it is and buff nightblades and sorcs because that's the majority class people play and ask for buffs.

What a joke.

Not true.

I've done fine on my Stamplar in BGs this patch. Is it more challenging? Yes. But you can still be highly effective.

In Bgs, stam classes that don't have very strong class defenses or escape tools have to pick between being able to deal a lot of damage or take a lot of damage. You really can't do both. If you are like most people and you want to deal a lot of damage, then you have to pair your damage with high mobility and play a hit-and-run style.

I was having in mind cyrodiil and being able to tank and 1vx, 2vx. in no cp.

In cp I can sprint and dodge roll a lot more to survive and run into LOS, run around rocks/tree and sustain while still having good damage and getting in kills.

Hotdog_23

Let stamplar jabs heal just like magplar and turn explosive charge into a stamina morph.

Be safe and have fun 😁

Rhaegar75

far frm me to claim that I'm an expert but I must admit I've tried a few combinations out for my Stamplar:

Malacath: not happy at all - i suffered the lack of burst
Torc: Meh...couldn't really tell the difference
Wild hunt: nice...I truly loved the extra mobility and BG my numbers went up significantly.

As many have already pointed out, in the patch mobility > damage > defense...if you then find a build that has 3 out of the 3 elements: you shall be king of the No CP