Dear Loremaster.

DRTE

Why is blackreach now on the complete other side of the map now. I would like to know as it breaks my immersion. Anyone that has played skyrim should know that blackreach was in the Winterhold / dawnstar region why has this shifted to the complete other side of the map. The tower of Mzark was where you entered and it had connecting dwemer cities. "The cavern encompasses the area between three Dwemer cities―Alftand, Mzinchaleft, and Raldbthar." so can someone please explain this massive oversight and next time try sticking to the lore please.

Elsonso

What is really interesting is how BGS got Blackreach wrong 10 years ago and we only found out now.

kargen27

Cataclysmic event?

Sylvermynx

Oy. I - um.... well, I guess I will go there....

DRAGONBREAK!!

Malthorne

Elsonso wrote: »

What is really interesting is how BGS got Blackreach wrong 10 years ago and we only found out now.

You’re so right. Discovering blackreach by walking through a closet in a basement is much more creative than the way Skyrim did it.

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Oy. I - um.... well, I guess I will go there....

DRAGONBREAK!!

yussss

BlueRaven

I think the answer they gave is that Blackreach is larger than what we explored in Skyrim. What we are exploring are the parts we did not see in ES5.

I think.

tomofhyrule

The Blackreach we play in ESO barely matches up with the one from Skyrim.

This is the whole map of Blackreach as we have so far:

The only part that we've seen before is the Mzark cavern protion, which is only on the far right of that map. That matches pretty well with the southern portion of Blackreach as we saw in Skyrim, blocked off at the Silent City.



Tower of Mzark (10 on the Skyrim map) is off the Eastmarch map, so that exit is inactive. It also seems like Raldbthar (11) and Frostvault (the ESO DLC dungeon) are the same thing, so that exit is also deactivated. What they do have is the inn at the Grinning Horker (TESV-era Nightgate Inn, but the scale is a bit off since the White Yorgrim river's been shortened.), which leads to a basement entrance to Blackreach. Now this doesn't match up well, since that entrance to Blackreach should be way deeper, and it's also in the area of Cradlecrush...so there might be some unwritten tunnel you're going through to get there.

It looks like the passage between Greymoor cavent and Mzark cavern collapsed between ESO and Skyrim, so that could explain why the rest of Blackreach as it is in ESO is inaccessible.

EDIT: Bad UESP editor, I should know which river is which...

Sylvermynx

Or it's just because ZOS does stuff the way they want it to be, and doesn't give a rat's patoot about what came before.... um... after?

SeaGtGruff

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Or it's just because ZOS does stuff the way they want it to be, and doesn't give a rat's patoot about what came before.... um... after?

But it's been sort of like that since TES:Arena. Each new game expands upon the lore, and sometimes even alters the earlier versions of the lore as it deems necessary. And there are many years between Tamriel of ESO and Tamriel of TES5:Skyrim-- plenty enough time for major geological and geographical changes to occur.

Ratzkifal

Dear OP, have you played the Dawnguard DLC? If so, have you done the Aetherium quests? You might remember Arkngthamz, located in the Reach. It's where you start the quest line. Arkngthamz was one of the Dwemer city-states that were researching Aetherium which was being mined in Blackreach. Kind of strange that a Dwemer city all the way in the south west would spearhead such an endeavour all the way in the north east... Unless of course they were connected to Blackreach somehow. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

The whole premise of this chapter is "Blackreach is larger than you thought" and you are complaining about Blackreach not being between the Pale, Winterhold and Eastmarch when it actually still is and we even get to go to a small part of it in the prologue? Blackreach is probably below all of Skyrim and we will most likely go to the part connecting to Arkngthamz in the Q4 DLC since we are going to go to the Reach.

Sylvermynx

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Or it's just because ZOS does stuff the way they want it to be, and doesn't give a rat's patoot about what came before.... um... after?

But it's been sort of like that since TES:Arena. Each new game expands upon the lore, and sometimes even alters the earlier versions of the lore as it deems necessary. And there are many years between Tamriel of ESO and Tamriel of TES5:Skyrim-- plenty enough time for major geological and geographical changes to occur.

Well, I started this franchise when Arena released. And until Skyrim (and now ESO) I didn't find much "lore-obliterating" stuff in the earlier games.

Then again, I wasn't particularly playing those early games with a magnifying glass on the lore. So.... *shrug*

Ratzkifal

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Or it's just because ZOS does stuff the way they want it to be, and doesn't give a rat's patoot about what came before.... um... after?

But it's been sort of like that since TES:Arena. Each new game expands upon the lore, and sometimes even alters the earlier versions of the lore as it deems necessary. And there are many years between Tamriel of ESO and Tamriel of TES5:Skyrim-- plenty enough time for major geological and geographical changes to occur.

This annoys me. No, there isn't plenty enough time for major geological and geographical changes to occur. We are only 800 years away. Only cataclysmic events could change the land like that but what we see here can definitely not be explained away like that. Not that it needs to anyway. Blackreach is larger than we previously thought and extends all the way to Western Skyrim. We just weren't able to go to that part in TESV but supposedly it was already there.

Thevampirenight

The idea behind it was what if it extended across all of Skyrim.
So that is what they are doing here. Is making it go across most of it. So the Black Reach is this massive Underdark like place that extends across most of Skyrim and potentially into the Wrothgar Mountains where Dwemeri Ruins can be found.

SeaGtGruff

A single day is long enough time for a major geological change to occur, although of course the forces behind them are usually building up over much, much longer than that. But the change itself can occur suddenly and dramatically.

But I never suggested anything like a huge cavernous area getting filled in somehow. Rather, there's plenty of time for some small underground landslide or rockfall to block off a passage or doorway leading from one part of Blackreach to another.

M_Volsung

Also, it looks like the various great lifts you find line up with the bits of Dwemer ruin you find scattered around Skyrim in TESV.

Warning: Video contains spoilers.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=PXYFYa0m-JA

SidraWillowsky

I have decided to bury my head in the sand in this case and just pretend that ESO Blackreach doesn't exist >.<

Kittytravel

Ratzkifal wrote: »

This annoys me. No, there isn't plenty enough time for major geological and geographical changes to occur. We are only 800 years away. Only cataclysmic events could change the land like that but what we see here can definitely not be explained away like that. Not that it needs to anyway. Blackreach is larger than we previously thought and extends all the way to Western Skyrim. We just weren't able to go to that part in TESV but supposedly it was already there.

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Oy. I - um.... well, I guess I will go there....

DRAGONBREAK!!

volkeswagon

because it's a game. It is part of the Skyrim expansion so it has to be under Skyrim. Just pretend when you use the elevator that you are going to where you want it to be. In fact those elevators don't go just down then go down and to the right which brings you to the place you mentioned. Yeah that's it.

Sephyr

It's like nothing else in the game was mismatched and out of order, yet THIS is the biggest issue there is...

SeaGtGruff

M_Volsung wrote: »

Also, it looks like the various great lifts you find line up with the bits of Dwemer ruin you find scattered around Skyrim in TESV.

Warning: Possible spoilers.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=PXYFYa0m-JA

Very interesting video, although it definitely (not possibly) contains spoilers.

I disagree with one of the claims he made and then returned to at least once, and it's one which some people in these forums have also claimed-- namely, that "the only way" to get to Blackreach is to descend in one of the great lifts.

Poppycock! The first time you enter Blackreach in Skyrim, all of the great lifts are inaccessible because their gates are closed, so you have to enter through a Dwarven ruin. If I remember correctly, the door that opens up into Blackreach is pretty big-- big enough for a giant to walk through.

And there's a second way in through a different Dwarven ruin, although you have to unlock a door from inside Blackreach and lower a stairway from inside the Dwarven ruin before you can go in and out that way.

And who knows how many other "lost" or "forgotten" entrances there might have been other than the great lifts? The great lifts are there for more convenient access, not as the only access.

As for the dragon, I suppose dragons have always been fully-grown adults, that no baby dragon was ever inside an egg, and no hatchling dragons of small size have ever existed? [/sarcasm] So the mystery of how the dragon came to be there might have a very simple solution.

On the other hand, I do think his suggested solution to those mysteries is fascinating. And his comment about how the great lifts in Western Skyrim in ESO coincide with Dwarven rubble in TES5:Skyrim is also fascinating.

It's just that whenever I hear or see someone say that "the only way into Blackreach" is via a great lift, I want to do a facepalm.

BisDasBlutGefriert

(x-files theme starts playing)

PieMaster1

I was playing wizard101 a few minutes ago and i saw Dear Loremaster on ESO forums, for a second i was like whaaat? xD

Palindiil

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

As for the dragon, I suppose dragons have always been fully-grown adults, that no baby dragon was ever inside an egg, and no hatchling dragons of small size have ever existed? [/sarcasm] So the mystery of how the dragon came to be there might have a very simple solution.

Quite literally, yes. Dragons just exist, no baby dragons ever in ES lore.

(I absolutely agree with your central point, though! )

VaranisArano

Sephyr wrote: »

It's like nothing else in the game was mismatched and out of order, yet THIS is the biggest issue there is...

Do you want to hear about all the other issues? I'm sure there are no end of disgruntled players who would like to talk about the lorebreaking changes to, say, Bosmer passives. Or my own pet peeve: numerous inaccessible dwemer ruins in Vvardenfell that I can explore later in TES3.

That would make the thread rather unfocused, but we could.

Aelsioln

I swear I heard somewhere that the idea is that Blackreach is absolutely massive, much larger than we ever thought of before. Spanning all across Skyrim. We're just exploring a small section right now.

Elsonso

Malthorne wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

What is really interesting is how BGS got Blackreach wrong 10 years ago and we only found out now.

You’re so right. Discovering blackreach by walking through a closet in a basement is much more creative than the way Skyrim did it.

In TES 5, we go on this quest to find a do-dad that will unlock the door to a mysterious elevator that leads to Blackreach. We get down there, only to find that there are other elevators, including three that go straight to the surface and are locked only by a gate, no do-dad required to operate.

The main road between Morthal and Dawnstar goes right past one of those elevators. We are led to believe, in TES 5, that in the thousands of years that Skyrim has been inhabited, not one man or mer thought "hey, let's break into this strange Dwemer building with the lever in the middle".

Additionally, I am pretty sure that the Falmer do not have handy magical do-dads, so how did they get in there? Are we expected to believe that they are a "dragon in a bottle"? Clearly, there are other ways in that are not revealed by TES 5.

The simple fact is that, like any large cave, you can go in through the intended entrance, or you can dig your way in. If one of those digs starts in a "closet", that makes no less sense than it starting in a surface mine, or by tunneling down in search of heat to power your machines. Blackreach may even have had, at one point, natural entrances that one could just walk into.

As I see it, the ESO devs took the framework thrown together by the TES 5 devs, but limited to that one game, and fleshed it out into more useful lore.

DRTE

Guess we will just say this is the GODHEAD'S fault. This is someone else's dream. Lore fixed.

Galwylin

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Oy. I - um.... well, I guess I will go there....

DRAGONBREAK!!

Well not completely on subject but if there was one thing I dislike most about the lore of this game its the existence of dragonbreaks. About the only place such a concept would ever belong is a Trump speech.

Chaos2088

There is 100% chance more of Blackreach is going to be added. More of what we know from Skyrim and other areas. The map shows more is going to be added. There is even a blocked off gate on the eastern part of one on the caverns.

Wouldn’t fret about there being differences we are gunna get Skyrim’s version and more

Nirntrotter

It's stated multiple times that Blackreach stretches "under all of Skyrim" and the portion in ESO is specifically called "Greymoor Caverns". That's obviously not the same area as in TES:V.

Elsonso

tomofhyrule wrote: »

What they do have is the inn at the Grinning Horker (TESV-era Nightgate Inn, but the scale is a bit off since the White Yorgrim river's been shortened.), which leads to a basement entrance to Blackreach. Now this doesn't match up well, since that entrance to Blackreach should be way deeper, and it's also in the area of Cradlecrush...so there might be some unwritten tunnel you're going through to get there.

The dialog from Lyris during the prologue quest makes a comment about how deep they are, which suggests that the devs have shortened that passage for the purpose of the game. It is likely much longer, and may change directions as it goes down. We also do not know how far it travels horizontally.

Sylvermynx wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Or it's just because ZOS does stuff the way they want it to be, and doesn't give a rat's patoot about what came before.... um... after?

But it's been sort of like that since TES:Arena. Each new game expands upon the lore, and sometimes even alters the earlier versions of the lore as it deems necessary. And there are many years between Tamriel of ESO and Tamriel of TES5:Skyrim-- plenty enough time for major geological and geographical changes to occur.

Well, I started this franchise when Arena released. And until Skyrim (and now ESO) I didn't find much "lore-obliterating" stuff in the earlier games.

I did not pay any attention to the Lore when I started, either.

What I found is that they are frequently changing past lore. Arena was never designed to be the start of a series, so the world and lore they did was not really intended to be still in use decades later. It is not a surprise when Arena geography is changed in the later games. Basically, each previous game is a guide, not a rule.

More generally to this thread... It is also important to remember that they only really need to do Lore for the game in development, and that Lore only needs to support the story in that game. Since the TES single player games rarely cover the same ground more than once, it is easy to do this and not have to make lots of changes.

This is what happened with Blackreach. BGS only really did the Blackreach that they needed to do for Skyrim. ZOS had to expand upon what BGS started to do the Blackreach for ESO.