Venomous Smite in PvP

ThePedge

So many comparisons to Master DW lmao.

Can you apply Master DW bleed from 28m away?

Can you get damaged by Master DW bleed by it being on an ally near you?

Even when purged, the AoE persists and can still hit allies.

Compared to other sets (may change in PTS) it has no proc chance, so guaranteed 66% uptime as long as you crit. And if someone puts a dot in you, say Poison Injection, almost certain to crit one tick. Or NB stealth into crit.

Tammany

ItsJustHashtag wrote: »

Tammany wrote: »

allan0n wrote: »

Gee, I wonder why the class that can completely ignore the damage from this set with cloak doesn't see why people are complaining about it...but yeah..sure. Best post in the thread.

I main sorc for last month, not nightblade.
My point still stands, set is terrible in pvp and works only against crowds/bads, your tears are exaggerated.

Magsorc?

Wich class should i play to start crying over this mediocore damage set ?

FirmamentOfStars

Btw ecru...
Thx for your dps parse, which nicely shows that venomous smite is more powerful than master dual wield and too powerful.

Base tooltip of venomous smite is 2241 per second over 10 seconds with 15 secs cooldown. Therefore base dps would be 1494 damage per second.

Meanwhile master dual wield adds 1635 too every tick and initial hit of rending/blood craze. So over 10 seconds, there are 7 reinforced hits. So base dps of the master bonus is 1141 dps.

Your parse shows a dps of 2210 for venomous smite, therefore a 1.48 modifier on the 1635 base dps. If we apply same modifier to master dual wield dps, we get 1688 dps.

Also venomous claw is the best dot in the game and naturally can crit as every other skill. If we take the crits away (55% crit chance and 84% modifier makes an overall 46.2% modifier), then claw has a dps of 2318 and is barely stronger...but is only single target. If we take away the single target bonus over aoe, venomous claw is weaker than venomous smite.

ecru

precambria wrote: »

I use master DW and get hit with it like 100 times a day, it's never been in a recap at 10k damage hell it's usually under 4k.

Malacath dots are annoying because people got way to used to dots being utter trash for a patch, if it's overbearing now it's because of the 20% healing loss but dots SHOULD do damage especially considering how dot comprise so many of the offensive abilities in this game.

Look at icy conjure, look at pillar of nirn both are hard to obtain compared to venomous and have proc conditions or limitations that make them harder to use and their tooltips are LESS than hunters venom, hunters venom doesn't even have an avoidable projectile Icy has a slow moving spirit that can be dodged and also requires a minor debuff to proc it with less damage done than venom a literal AOE, pillar of nirn is easy to avoid and WEAK (less than half) as heck in damage compared to venom with the same cooldown and no tracking area of effect oh it's also a % based proc and not a condition one so it will waste itself constantly.

There are other dot sets in the game non of them even hold a candle to the damage potential of HV, this was not an oversight but retooling a bunch of sets takes work and they wanted motivation for people to do harrowstorms, what sells on the guild store faster than a OP PVP set right before MYM? it will be corrected but we need to make sure they know to do it sooner than later.

If rending with master dw only does 4k total damage you or your opponent may have under 1000 weapon damage. Might want to make sure you have points in.. literally all of your armor/weapon/racial passives

precambria wrote: »

9

ecru wrote: »

It's just one dot, lol.

precambria wrote: »

The tooltip isn't even written correctly so it doesn't show that its like 30k damage in an aoe with no flight time, look at the other dot procs in the game than look at that one. It's at least TWICE as much damage as it should be if compared with other sets.

30k tooltip damage over 15 seconds is equal to the same tooltip damage as two dswings. It's also about equal to Venomous Claw. Again, it's just one dot. Dots are hilariously weak in ESO, so try healing.

Rending with Master DW also has about the same tooltip as this set, but can be used every ~11 seconds, so it's more effective dps.

edit:

This is what you guys are complaining about. I put together a dot build with this set and hit a dummy and it's.. 5% of my damage. It doesn't even out damage rending with master dw or venomous claw. This isn't sloads where it completely ignores mitigation and has 100% uptime, it's just a relatively strong dot that ticks over 10s. The old master dw before bleeds were nerfed, along with axe bleeds, were way way stronger than this ever was. Even the old carve that caused a bleed was better because that ignored mitigation too.

What do you give up for running this set? In my case could run Tzogvin's on 2h bar instead and get minor force, 10% more crit on both bars, and 1400 pen. Or I could have a dot. Tough choice.

We are talking about pvp though it's completely different because of battlespirit and resists, the TOOLIP is that high the actual damage it does is more like 7-10k in no CP which is obscenely high for the literally 0 effort it takes to have on somebody while also pounding them with other spells and dots : [

I agree that this set is too much in nocp, but master dw is too much in nocp too. The reason it's too much in nocp is mostly due to the recent healing nerfs--everything is too much in nocp. BGs are basically instagib mode at this point, but it isn't down to this one set, it's a general issue that will hopefully be addressed soon.

SavageChain wrote: »

Btw ecru...
Thx for your dps parse, which nicely shows that venomous smite is more powerful than master dual wield and too powerful.

Base tooltip of venomous smite is 2241 per second over 10 seconds with 15 secs cooldown. Therefore base dps would be 1494 damage per second.

Meanwhile master dual wield adds 1635 too every tick and initial hit of rending/blood craze. So over 10 seconds, there are 7 reinforced hits. So base dps of the master bonus is 1141 dps.

Your parse shows a dps of 2210 for venomous smite, therefore a 1.48 modifier on the 1635 base dps. If we apply same modifier to master dual wield dps, we get 1688 dps.

Also venomous claw is the best dot in the game and naturally can crit as every other skill. If we take the crits away (55% crit chance and 84% modifier makes an overall 46.2% modifier), then claw has a dps of 2318 and is barely stronger...but is only single target. If we take away the single target bonus over aoe, venomous claw is weaker than venomous smite.

You're ignoring the fact that this set cannot benefit from weapon passives like master dw can, which can increase the damage of both the initial hits and dot ticks by up to 35%. I don't think it really matters though. The issue here is that people cannot seem to handle a single strong dot that can only proc once every 15 seconds prevalent in pvp. It's still ~1k dps in cp pvp over a period of 10 seconds. Pre-nerf master dw was much, much stronger, and still a lot of people didn't even bother to use it due to the prevalence of things like purges.

Venomous claw being the best dot in the game is the problem with dots. The best dot in the game only doing 1.7x the damage of one of the most powerful spammables (dizzy) over 14 seconds is the problem with dots. The "best" dot is also backloaded and mostly useless until the last few ticks, which makes it a minor annoyance for two thirds of it's duration, at which point it's purged and only ends up doing as much damage as the worst dots in the game. No one is used to having more than one (or even one) strong dot on them at this point, which explains all of the weeping and gnashing of teeth over a single strong dot. The aoe component should probably be looked at, or the ranged component, but the damage itself isn't a major issue and is on par with what most dots should be.

The reason we had such a problem with strong dots with the patch last year that buffed them all into 30k+ tooltips was that every single class had access to them and could stack them. They weren't unique class abilities that were part of a class whose identity is dot stacking, they were literally just trash anyone could slot and stack (and do it from range). This is just one dot, and we don't have access to those strong dots anymore, so IMO this just isn't a major problem.

Bergzorn

ecru wrote: »

This is just one dot, and we don't have access to those strong dots anymore, so IMO this just isn't a major problem.

I would be ok with its damage, even the AOE. But it should have some counterplay (the Sload's projectile treatment comes to mind). It's not even mainly about avoiding the damage, it's about having a feeling of counterplay and control. Eating procs left and right with not much to do against just isn't fun. There are still a lot of players with no reasonable access to purge.

Fazuszek

Yes, i also use this set in PVP, with poisons (too buff) and other 2 proc sets. If this sets get nerfed, i will use other. Simple.

Why???

Coz im FORCED TO DO SO. Trust me, i really, really tried to play diffrent class - i love magica builds, im experienced rpg player, who likes PVP. But i cant enjoy it, the way i would like too. Why? Coz the huuuge class inbalance. I would love to play as magnecro (its funny coz Necromancers and their magic are considered powerfull in the world of rpg games), but im not stupid, with stamina costs in no cp, u are easily outmached by a stamdk or stam warden. What tools i have against OP mag sorcs? Especially that in every fight in bg, i have like 7-8 sorcs atm.

I dont have much fun playing this way, but i refused to be a meatshield for other players, and switched to gank build. Yes, i use desync, spam lethal arrow and poison arrows.

People tend to belevie that ther is somekind of magic skill gap, and if they play loooong, they will ,,git gud''. Its a myth.

raasdal

Meh.

There are so many other sets that are way more dangerous.

This set is getting hate because it is visible and abundant. It is purely psychological and not rooted in the math behind it IMO.

1. It is easily available to the masses
2. It has a clear visual that you notice. So when you die, you go “thats why”
3. Due to the nature of the duration and damage it will show up alot in the death recap regardless of the actual effect.

These are the reasons it is getting hate. Not because it is crazy OP. Compared to other procs that is. We all know procs are OP af.

What i really dont get is the no counterplay argument. This is a higly visual dot. When you see it on yourself you know it is time to disengage.

Also, whenever i get it i just think, wow that guy is not using Malacath, nice. He will not be doing massive damage on his other skills.

And yeah - if you think THIS set is bad, just wait till next patch. They just took some of the already strongest proc sets in the game and made them available for soooo many builds, by removing the proc chance. I will personally be starting out with a SnB build using whatever to proc Way Of Fire and Red Mountain. The first of them, by the way, is the same rough damage output as this hated set, but with avsolutely no indication - no sound, no visual, to let you know you are being melted. Just saying.

ecru

raasdal wrote: »

Meh.

There are so many other sets that are way more dangerous.

This set is getting hate because it is visible and abundant. It is purely psychological and not rooted in the math behind it IMO.

1. It is easily available to the masses
2. It has a clear visual that you notice. So when you die, you go “thats why”
3. Due to the nature of the duration and damage it will show up alot in the death recap regardless of the actual effect.

These are the reasons it is getting hate. Not because it is crazy OP. Compared to other procs that is. We all know procs are OP af.

What i really dont get is the no counterplay argument. This is a higly visual dot. When you see it on yourself you know it is time to disengage.

Also, whenever i get it i just think, wow that guy is not using Malacath, nice. He will not be doing massive damage on his other skills.

And yeah - if you think THIS set is bad, just wait till next patch. They just took some of the already strongest proc sets in the game and made them available for soooo many builds, by removing the proc chance. I will personally be starting out with a SnB build using whatever to proc Way Of Fire and Red Mountain. The first of them, by the way, is the same rough damage output as this hated set, but with avsolutely no indication - no sound, no visual, to let you know you are being melted. Just saying.

Yeah if people think this set is bad, they need to go through the PTS patch notes and do the math on some of the updated sets. Not gonna point any specifics out but there are a few that will have much more effective dps than this set.

Bergzorn

raasdal wrote: »

And yeah - if you think THIS set is bad, just wait till next patch.

Yeah, sadly, I have to agree with that. I didn't bother to read all the set changes, but there is some concerning stuff in the PTS notes. It's also a typical ZOS move again, changing a lot of things in one patch. If they are not following up with some serious generic proc set adjustments for PvP, via Battle Spirit or whatever, it's gonna be really bad in no CP.

ThePedge

raasdal wrote: »

Meh.

There are so many other sets that are way more dangerous.

This set is getting hate because it is visible and abundant. It is purely psychological and not rooted in the math behind it IMO.

1. It is easily available to the masses
2. It has a clear visual that you notice. So when you die, you go “thats why”
3. Due to the nature of the duration and damage it will show up alot in the death recap regardless of the actual effect.

These are the reasons it is getting hate. Not because it is crazy OP. Compared to other procs that is. We all know procs are OP af.

What i really dont get is the no counterplay argument. This is a higly visual dot. When you see it on yourself you know it is time to disengage.

Also, whenever i get it i just think, wow that guy is not using Malacath, nice. He will not be doing massive damage on his other skills.

And yeah - if you think THIS set is bad, just wait till next patch. They just took some of the already strongest proc sets in the game and made them available for soooo many builds, by removing the proc chance. I will personally be starting out with a SnB build using whatever to proc Way Of Fire and Red Mountain. The first of them, by the way, is the same rough damage output as this hated set, but with avsolutely no indication - no sound, no visual, to let you know you are being melted. Just saying.

No.

Yes, the accessibility doesn't help, but it wouldn't stop people from farming once they see how good it is.

One guy can spam a bombard into a group, it crits on 4 people, unless they split up or purge all of them, it's 4 ticks per second per person. From distance.

And "look at PTS" isn't really a valid arguement when the overwhelming response is, "WTF ZOS".
This set is live with these values, and nerfs were requested during its own PTS cycle.

Although I doubt they will be revised, those changes might not make it to live.
If they do I'll have to attempt the garbage CP campaign, or quit.

ItsJustHashtag

ecru wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Meh.

There are so many other sets that are way more dangerous.

This set is getting hate because it is visible and abundant. It is purely psychological and not rooted in the math behind it IMO.

1. It is easily available to the masses
2. It has a clear visual that you notice. So when you die, you go “thats why”
3. Due to the nature of the duration and damage it will show up alot in the death recap regardless of the actual effect.

These are the reasons it is getting hate. Not because it is crazy OP. Compared to other procs that is. We all know procs are OP af.

What i really dont get is the no counterplay argument. This is a higly visual dot. When you see it on yourself you know it is time to disengage.

Also, whenever i get it i just think, wow that guy is not using Malacath, nice. He will not be doing massive damage on his other skills.

And yeah - if you think THIS set is bad, just wait till next patch. They just took some of the already strongest proc sets in the game and made them available for soooo many builds, by removing the proc chance. I will personally be starting out with a SnB build using whatever to proc Way Of Fire and Red Mountain. The first of them, by the way, is the same rough damage output as this hated set, but with avsolutely no indication - no sound, no visual, to let you know you are being melted. Just saying.

Yeah if people think this set is bad, they need to go through the PTS patch notes and do the math on some of the updated sets. Not gonna point any specifics out but there are a few that will have much more effective dps than this set.

This set was bad until they pumped all the proc sets on pts with steroids hah

MurderMostFoul

ThePedge wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Meh.

There are so many other sets that are way more dangerous.

This set is getting hate because it is visible and abundant. It is purely psychological and not rooted in the math behind it IMO.

1. It is easily available to the masses
2. It has a clear visual that you notice. So when you die, you go “thats why”
3. Due to the nature of the duration and damage it will show up alot in the death recap regardless of the actual effect.

These are the reasons it is getting hate. Not because it is crazy OP. Compared to other procs that is. We all know procs are OP af.

What i really dont get is the no counterplay argument. This is a higly visual dot. When you see it on yourself you know it is time to disengage.

Also, whenever i get it i just think, wow that guy is not using Malacath, nice. He will not be doing massive damage on his other skills.

And yeah - if you think THIS set is bad, just wait till next patch. They just took some of the already strongest proc sets in the game and made them available for soooo many builds, by removing the proc chance. I will personally be starting out with a SnB build using whatever to proc Way Of Fire and Red Mountain. The first of them, by the way, is the same rough damage output as this hated set, but with avsolutely no indication - no sound, no visual, to let you know you are being melted. Just saying.

No.

Yes, the accessibility doesn't help, but it wouldn't stop people from farming once they see how good it is.

One guy can spam a bombard into a group, it crits on 4 people, unless they split up or purge all of them, it's 4 ticks per second per person. From distance.

And "look at PTS" isn't really a valid arguement when the overwhelming response is, "WTF ZOS".
This set is live with these values, and nerfs were requested during its own PTS cycle.

Although I doubt they will be revised, those changes might not make it to live.
If they do I'll have to attempt the garbage CP campaign, or quit.

AFAIK, it will only infect one target when an AOE crits. This is standard for all proc sets with language, like Venomous Smite, stating:

"This effect can occur once every 15 seconds."

Your example is 4 occurrences in 15 seconds.

I still think Venomous Smite is over-tuned, but if proc sets worked like that, we would have all kinds of other problems .

precambria

They broke NO CP pvp with this set, anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't do BG it's utterly indefensible in that context there is NO other sets with that much damage at that high a rate period I have tested all the dot procs. The problem is just the damage is way to high, it needs to be halved to fit in line with other sets.

Bergzorn

Well, the set will be in line with other damage proc sets next patch, just not in the way I hoped it to be.

If there aren't serious changes coming to the PTS over the next few weeks, people will be able to line up insane damage from two or three proc sets with little effort.

If ZOS really decides to serve us a new full proc meta, I'm not gonna eat it.

MiserynCompany

Concrete wrote: »

Really only helps counter healing buffs on groups. Think maybe once or twice have I killed anyone with 'hunters venom'

Doubt... It's on my death cap some times by 3 different players. In fact, I have screen shots of death caps where I have literally died to 2 hunters venom and 2 azures blight while someone on the back is "executing" (I say that cautiously knowing its prob just button spamming and lucky timing) with mages wrath. Regardless, just because you aren't noticing it doesn't mean it's not occurring. It's on my death cap in no cp more than actual abilities at peak times. Cleanse and it's back up, Best part is the dots get them AP gains for just being potatoes ..

raasdal

precambria wrote: »

They broke NO CP pvp with this set, anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't do BG it's utterly indefensible in that context there is NO other sets with that much damage at that high a rate period I have tested all the dot procs. The problem is just the damage is way to high, it needs to be halved to fit in line with other sets.

Just not true. There are a load of proc sets with same damage. If you want to focus on DoTs, then take Icy Conjuror. That is 18920 over 8 seconds, making it 2365 / Tick. That is actually slightly more. And there are many others, both DoT and Instant frontloaded damage.

pauld1_ESO

Seriously with all the templar one key spam and dizzying swings THIS is what you complain about? You must be rockin a 2h Templar.

Bergzorn

pauld1_ESO wrote: »

Seriously with all the templar one key spam and dizzying swings THIS is what you complain about?

Yes.

pauld1_ESO wrote: »

You must be rockin a 2h Templar.

No.

Stamplars are very dangerous in the hand of a skilled player. As long as they don't cheese it with damage proc sets, I respect them. It's also probably the class that relies on Dizzying Swing the least.

jaime1982

Meh, I dont see it as that strong imo.

katorga

ItsJustHashtag wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Meh.

There are so many other sets that are way more dangerous.

This set is getting hate because it is visible and abundant. It is purely psychological and not rooted in the math behind it IMO.

1. It is easily available to the masses
2. It has a clear visual that you notice. So when you die, you go “thats why”
3. Due to the nature of the duration and damage it will show up alot in the death recap regardless of the actual effect.

These are the reasons it is getting hate. Not because it is crazy OP. Compared to other procs that is. We all know procs are OP af.

What i really dont get is the no counterplay argument. This is a higly visual dot. When you see it on yourself you know it is time to disengage.

Also, whenever i get it i just think, wow that guy is not using Malacath, nice. He will not be doing massive damage on his other skills.

And yeah - if you think THIS set is bad, just wait till next patch. They just took some of the already strongest proc sets in the game and made them available for soooo many builds, by removing the proc chance. I will personally be starting out with a SnB build using whatever to proc Way Of Fire and Red Mountain. The first of them, by the way, is the same rough damage output as this hated set, but with avsolutely no indication - no sound, no visual, to let you know you are being melted. Just saying.

Yeah if people think this set is bad, they need to go through the PTS patch notes and do the math on some of the updated sets. Not gonna point any specifics out but there are a few that will have much more effective dps than this set.

This set was bad until they pumped all the proc sets on pts with steroids hah

Yep. Venomous Spite is done. Last week's news. No one is going to use it next patch. Pillar of Nirn, doubled. Sheer Venom, Doubled. Unleashed Terror, new but as big as Icy Conjuror (also buffed). Vicious Death, huge buff. Caluurions, huge buff. All of these work with Malacath too.

ZOS took a look at Venomous, and said we need more of that.

precambria

raasdal wrote: »

precambria wrote: »

They broke NO CP pvp with this set, anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't do BG it's utterly indefensible in that context there is NO other sets with that much damage at that high a rate period I have tested all the dot procs. The problem is just the damage is way to high, it needs to be halved to fit in line with other sets.

Just not true. There are a load of proc sets with same damage. If you want to focus on DoTs, then take Icy Conjuror. That is 18920 over 8 seconds, making it 2365 / Tick. That is actually slightly more. And there are many others, both DoT and Instant frontloaded damage.

Lol have you ever used Icy conjure cause I have a whole lot and it's not even comparable the ghost is avoidable and moves at like 1MPH, plus it has proc conditions which are actually tied to something other than just critting you need to either used charged trait or slot a spell with a minor debuff, oh and it's single target, oh and there isn't a set that buffs it by 20%. It's the easiest "projectile" to avoid of any proc in the game.

Pillar of Nirn, avoidable, half as much damage as venomous, actually requires farming to get, doesn't have a tracking circle aoe of destruction, is basically not viable in PvP do to it's poor proc chance (which may change in patch but the damage is terrible compared to venom)

Savage wearwolf, can be applied on many targets and refreshes on contact but, it does almost no damage unless you are exposed to it for a long time which means you can just LoS and it's gone it's not remotely comparable the only real reason to use it is to proc azureblight.

Sheer venom, single target, way less damage and proc conditions tied to specific ability use, next.

Viper's sting, melee requirement, next.

Twin sisters, block requirement, less damage next.

Sloads, easily avoidable projectile, ultimately much less damage, % based proc makes it unreliable, single target.

Relequens, does no damage unless you are a target dummy.

Aegis caller, it's got melee requirement and is an immobile puppet, the only way this would be comparable to venom is if the caller literally attached itself to people.

Alkosh, less damage, unrealistic proc conditions for pvp, easily avoidable unless you are a trash mob.


Hunters venom, does more damage than any of these procs including Icy conjure which I have never seen in recap more than 6k damage, is not avoidable, is an AOE, scales with deadly strike, has been recorded in recaps doing over 12k damage and that is only on the one target, has no meaningful proc conditions, can be used at range, can proc from procs, there is no restraints on this set and zero reason whatsoever it should do as much damage as it does, is the easiest thing to obtain on this list.

People who have all these other sets (and no sense of shame) would slot venom over any of them because in practice it's about twice as strong, hell you could combine 2 of most of those sets and the effectiveness would be less than a zone drop 5 piece, GG balance

Merciful17

Bergzorn wrote: »

Dear ZOS,

I get it, you need to make your new chapter attractive to a broad audience, thus you introduced a new damage proc set with a comparably strong PBAOE, an easy proc condition, and not a lot of counterplay. But may I humbly ask that you please change it to a ground-based AOE and/or give it the Sload's Semblance projectile threatment rather sooner than later?

And while I'm at it, what's with empowering stealth snipers via Blood Frenzy and Strike from the Shadows passive, lessening the risk that would balance the playstyle with the Undead passive, and all this with the ongoing atrocious Snipe desyncs?

Best regards!

Don't forget that if you're vampire stage 2, you'll get 300 weapon and spell damage if you come out of stealth.

JackAshes

It’s the combination of these proc sets that make it so disgusting. FENGRUSH is currently using this plus Red Mountain and Master DW. In the hands of a newb it strong as hell. In the hands of an experienced player it is God Tier in BGs. Pretty sure he wants to see it nerfed and that’s why he plays it. Bashaholics ring any bells?

StarOfElyon

It needs an adjustment badly. I need two hots going just to keep it from killing me. Forget about fighting during that time.

StarOfElyon

The logic that bad things shouldn't be highlighted or fixed because other bad things also exist....