"GEM EXCLUSIVE" items...BS game monetization

Mortiis13 · June 2020

Would be happy if I could "gem" all the useless skins, mounts, costumes and hats I won't ever use or atleast sell for gold in guild store.

Starlock · June 2020

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

I see more and more games resorting to these disgusting, greedy sales practices and its making a long time gamer think about giving up the hobby. Is this really what gaming is going to turn into?

The number of game developers who don't practice deplorable monetization strategies significantly outnumber those who do. It's more a matter of avoiding developers who practice these things and supporting those who don't. That means avoiding a lot of the so-called "popular" games, but frankly, popular is overrated.

idk · June 2020

Knightpanther wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

When legislation catches up with gambling in video games, the gamble crates will go away. When the gamble crates go away, so will the gems.

Not necessarily. It is more likely their will some practices banned and companies could still offer the boxes within those parameters. The focus seems to be mostly on loot boxes that have an impact on how powerful a character can be whereas nothing in Zos' loot boxes does not venture into this direction. Governments tend to regulate vs eliminate.

Not entirely true, here in the UK loot boxes are definitely being looked at as potential gambling regardless of content.
Legislation is already a long way down the line and the nerf hammer for RNG items that cost real money will not be far off.
A friend of mine works for the legal team on another MMO, trust me they are shitting themselves.

Be Safe

Looked at and how things will actually materialize are very different. Politicians are great at grandstanding and rhetoric they fail to follow through with. They often settle for regulating a practice vs outright banning it.

Smart MMO management is pondering possible changes to boxes and alternatives but I doubt anyone with any sense is figuratively [snip] themself. Maybe some that do not understand the business or if they are working for a poorly run company.

There is an old adage that is perfect for this, do not count your chickens before they hatch.

[Edited to remove Profanity]

lucky_Sage · June 2020

Everything in this season of crates sucks any way all is ugly

Yamenstein · June 2020

what_the wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

When legislation catches up with gambling in video games, the gamble crates will go away. When the gamble crates go away, so will the gems.

Well, is it gambling when you are guaranteed to get an item from a crate when you open it? imo no.
It may not be an item you want or need, but you will always get a return with every single crate you open.
Vegas guarantees you absolutely nothing when you go there to play, that's gambling.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

🦆

If I spent $5 to play a game of chance and I was always guaranteed to win 0.05c it's still "gambling".

I'm purchasing loot boxes with real life money. ZoS needs to just put a notice when purchasing the game that it has gambling in it. If they don't like it, then remove it. But then the $.

Yamenstein · June 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Myyth wrote: »

I hate items that cost gems as well. The only way to get gems is to purchase who knows how many crates to get a random amount of gems. No way I am doing that.

Just from participating in Twitch Drops you can get free crates and free Gems through that. If you frittered all those away, that's on you wanting things. I haven't seen anything I really want and I'm sitting on 800 Gems, all from Crates given to me free one way or another -- mostly Twitch drops, some from daily rewards.

I'm just one player. Multiply that by the thousands who qualify for twitch drops and multiply it again by all the days in a year the promotion is on.

ZOS really is giving away so much in potential sales, just in twitch drops alone.

But the publicity that they get, and then all the new players subbing and buying crown crates!
🤗

Tigerseye · June 2020

Waseem wrote: »

cry on forums about gem exclusive items = cry on forums about gem exclusive items

Not exactly.

Talk positively about gem exclusive items on forums = encourage other people to buy them.

Talk negatively about gem exclusive items on forums = discourage other people from buying them.

We're not in a vacuum.

Communication is power.

Tigerseye · June 2020

Hanokihs wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

BRCOURTN wrote: »

So here's the problem with "if you don't want it, just don't buy it!"...

There are people in the world who suffer from gambling addiction. These people can't be near casinos or card games or even casual bets the way that serious alcoholics need to stay away from bars or other people that drink.

Its not hard to stay away from race tracks or casinos or bookies when you know you have a problem, but it might be hard to get away from things as simple as... playing their favorite video games.

There are so many games now that have loot crate transactions, and I'm not asking to take them away just like I wouldnt ask for every casino to shut down. But there needs to be more regulation to help protect the people who need it.

I disagree.

It's the responsibility of the gambler to get help if they can't control themselves. Or get friends and family to help them. It's not my problem if they have an issue with control.

I don't want the government in the middle of this. That'll be a huge mess, and will have consequences we don't want.

Did you know that "surprise mechanics" (aka, real world gambling) are in games marketed/rated for children? Did you also know that the inclusion of virtual gambling that doesn't even involve the spending of real world money automatically kicks video game out of the "E" for "Everyone" rating but the inclusion of actual real world gambling doesn't? Explain to us how this is okay or makes any sense, please.

Well for one, this game isn't for children. And for the games that are, children tend to not have access to personal bank accounts and credit cards. If parents can't be sussed to care and/or control what their kids are up to on their magic babysitting boxes, that's on them - not the devs and not the government.

So, according to you, it doesn't take a village and companies should be totally free to prey on children who have unattentive parents?

OK...

I would prefer it if legislation wasn't necessary, for anything.

However, unfortunately, corporations prove, every day, that they will just carry on pushing the limits until someone finally stops them.

...and this includes some of the biggest corporations in the world, run by some of the biggest names.

Some of whom have bought up huge swathes of what was formally known as journalism and other bodies that directly influence governments, every day.

All to further their own interests, while posing as "philanthropists".

jaws343 · June 2020

Yamenstein wrote: »

what_the wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

When legislation catches up with gambling in video games, the gamble crates will go away. When the gamble crates go away, so will the gems.

Well, is it gambling when you are guaranteed to get an item from a crate when you open it? imo no.
It may not be an item you want or need, but you will always get a return with every single crate you open.
Vegas guarantees you absolutely nothing when you go there to play, that's gambling.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

🦆

If I spent $5 to play a game of chance and I was always guaranteed to win 0.05c it's still "gambling".

I'm purchasing loot boxes with real life money. ZoS needs to just put a notice when purchasing the game that it has gambling in it. If they don't like it, then remove it. But then the $.

Technically, you are not purchasing Crown Crates with real life money. You are purchasing a virtual currency with real money that can be used for crown crates, or other items in the store.

And to the other point, you aren't spending $5 to get .05c worth of an item. You are spending 5$ to get 5$ value in return and maybe you also get more. You see, your perceived value of the items is irrelevant. And really, for example, let's take a single crown crate:

Crowns can be bought at 5500 for $40. Or 137.5 crowns per dollar.
A single Crown Crate is 400 crowns.
There are 4 items in a Crown Crate, or 100 crowns per item.
A Crown Exp Scroll is 300 crowns.
Lethal Potions are 200 crowns.
Crown Tri Pots 200 crowns. Let's say you got two of these in a crate.

So with just those items as rewards, you are getting 900 crowns worth of items, as priced by the seller, for 400 crowns. So no, you are not really gambling. You are buying items at a discount for the chance that maybe you get something nice within them.
No different than buying cereal and hoping you get the cool toy, or buying baseball cards and hoping you get a cool one. You are paying for the initial pool of items, the potions and food and EXP scrolls, anything else is extra rewards.

Starlock · June 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

cry on forums about gem exclusive items = cry on forums about gem exclusive items

Not exactly.

Talk positively about gem exclusive items on forums = encourage other people to buy them.

Talk negatively about gem exclusive items on forums = discourage other people from buying them.

We're not in a vacuum.

Communication is power.

To add, developers who produce games-as-service titles with copious amounts of microtransactions want to cultivate the notion in people's minds that spending money on these microtransactions is normal, acceptable, and expected. The reasons for this are obvious - humans are social animals, and our behavior is significantly impacted by what others around us are doing. If the idea of spending a lot of money on microtransactions is a social norm, human behavior generally follows the norm.

This is why cosmetics in video games are so powerful and why anybody who wails "but it's only cosmetic" doesn't understand why these exist in games-as-service titles. So-called "just cosmetic" microtransactions in multiplayer games are openly displayed for all to see, which normalizes the idea of spending money on these microtransactions. Elder Scrolls Online also does this with the different appearance of inventory animations for subscribing and non-subscribing members. You see someone rummaging around in the special ESO+ bag, and it establishes a social norm of paying a subscription. There is really no other reason to change the appearance of the inventory bag except for this purpose. You also see when a player is rummaging around in the cash shop or using the gambling cards for the same reason - it's all about normalizing it.

TineaCruris · June 2020

jaws343 wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

what_the wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

When legislation catches up with gambling in video games, the gamble crates will go away. When the gamble crates go away, so will the gems.

Well, is it gambling when you are guaranteed to get an item from a crate when you open it? imo no.
It may not be an item you want or need, but you will always get a return with every single crate you open.
Vegas guarantees you absolutely nothing when you go there to play, that's gambling.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

🦆

If I spent $5 to play a game of chance and I was always guaranteed to win 0.05c it's still "gambling".

I'm purchasing loot boxes with real life money. ZoS needs to just put a notice when purchasing the game that it has gambling in it. If they don't like it, then remove it. But then the $.

Technically, you are not purchasing Crown Crates with real life money. You are purchasing a virtual currency with real money that can be used for crown crates, or other items in the store.

And to the other point, you aren't spending $5 to get .05c worth of an item. You are spending 5$ to get 5$ value in return and maybe you also get more. You see, your perceived value of the items is irrelevant. And really, for example, let's take a single crown crate:

Crowns can be bought at 5500 for $40. Or 137.5 crowns per dollar.
A single Crown Crate is 400 crowns.
There are 4 items in a Crown Crate, or 100 crowns per item.
A Crown Exp Scroll is 300 crowns.
Lethal Potions are 200 crowns.
Crown Tri Pots 200 crowns. Let's say you got two of these in a crate.

So with just those items as rewards, you are getting 900 crowns worth of items, as priced by the seller, for 400 crowns. So no, you are not really gambling. You are buying items at a discount for the chance that maybe you get something nice within them.
No different than buying cereal and hoping you get the cool toy, or buying baseball cards and hoping you get a cool one. You are paying for the initial pool of items, the potions and food and EXP scrolls, anything else is extra rewards.

Except you can craft equal or better items to those clown crate items for zero expense of real money. That is where your analogy breaks down. Thus, these items are not worth real money in any circumstances.

Shantu · June 2020

Personally, I have no issue with Crown Crates...I don't buy them. I do, however, feel there should be a limit on how many a player can buy in a given time frame to prevent profiteering by leveraging issues some players have with gambling.

mikejezz · June 2020

DracoSaggitaExSole wrote: »

Gems, Crates = $$$
ESO needs to pay the bills for the servers, and needs to make profit for the blue collar suits behind the desk.

That commodore 64 the servers are running on paid for itself after the very first retail copy.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil · June 2020

For anyone who feels the need to defend greedy practices and argue with literally any thread that has a problem with crown crates.. why? Its obvious, whether you consider it gambling or not (the common moral issue), that the amount of money required to acquire [insert prized crate item] is exorbitantly higher than the amount of money required to purchase items in the crown store. Excuse me... higheris highly subjective, since you have a chance to acquire it in the first crate.

If you could still acquire the same items via regular crown purchase, it would be okay. Then crown crates would have a different value/purpose as a mystery/variety pack, with a chance to get something incredible! But we all know they are there to milk customers for money. In fact, they are designed to be a trap, giving you, not crowns, but crown gems in return for converting items (which is its own issue since things are automatically added to your collection, even if you'd rather convert them: i.e. a male character acquiring a female costume, and no, "make a female character" is not a valid argument). This further enforces the- I would say forces players/customers to purchase more crates. And spare me the invalid "personal choice" argument (yes, it is a valid point, but an invalid argument when the topic at hand is crown crates are a disgustingly greedy trend that needs to exit the gaming world asap). Speaking of invalid arguments... "other games also-" in that case they are also greedy and are also subject to the point of this thread. Money isn't evil, its a way to organize this crazy complicated world we live in. Greed. Is. Though.

If crown crates/loot crates/gamble crates/any variation or incarnation... if they were done away with and items were only offered in an honest way (direct purchase, and only one currency: crowns), it would benefit you. So... why defend them??? Are you that desperate to swim upstream? Do you like to subject yourself to others' greed? Do you prefer to spend more money vs less (and even if you do, its illogical nonetheless)?

I see more arguments about semantics than the actual issue smh.

How about this... what if you go to your favorite clothing store and all the nice clothes are only offered via mystery grab bags (and only some bags contain nice clothes, and you still have no clue what exactly if its what you want). But its okay because regular t-shirts are for direct sale? How about groceries? Want an apple, but get an orange... but its okay, because if you keep buying more "groceries" maybe you'll eventually get the apple, or acquire enough vouchers to trade in vouchers for an apple... oh but you need to spend XXX to acquire enough vouchers to get that apple, even though the apple is really only worth X. The principle is simple and clear.

Nyladreas · June 2020

Starlock wrote: »

When legislation catches up with gambling in video games, the gamble crates will go away. When the gamble crates go away, so will the gems.

LOL apparently you have no idea what gambling in this case is defined as.

You're still winning items with every crate, the legislation therefore doesn't even apply here. Just cause you win items you don't want is a totally different story, which quite frankly noone cares about.

zergbase_ESO · June 2020

Starlock wrote: »

When legislation catches up with gambling in video games, the gamble crates will go away. When the gamble crates go away, so will the gems.

Yeah seems Britain make good headway for that. Honestly hope it comes state side. These are just gambling honestly. I have ton gems and only buy what I want but that was from free crates they gave out. I limit create purchases to my sub crowns. Keeping enough crowns for the rare time that something nice is crown purchasable.

Starlock · June 2020

Nyladreas wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

When legislation catches up with gambling in video games, the gamble crates will go away. When the gamble crates go away, so will the gems.

LOL apparently you have no idea what gambling in this case is defined as.

Please read and educate - https://www.england.nhs.uk/2020/01/countrys-top-mental-health-nurse-warns-video-games-pushing-young-people-into-under-the-radar-gambling/

Starlock · June 2020

zergbase_ESO wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

When legislation catches up with gambling in video games, the gamble crates will go away. When the gamble crates go away, so will the gems.

Yeah seems Britain make good headway for that. Honestly hope it comes state side.

I'm not optimistic about the United States enacting meaningful legislation on this issue. Our federal government is too much bought out by corporate interests these days. Gambling is extremely profitable, including for video game publishers, and the heaps of money they will spend lobbying against the people's interests here.

What's sad is that they could have their "surprise mechanics" and do it ethically. They choose not to. ESO gamble crates could be fixed by: (1) removing radiant apex mounts or any other rewards unable to be obtained with gems, (2) removing the ability to draw duplicate items -or- refunding the FULL amount of gems for duplicates drawn thereby setting a spending ceiling (3) disclosing the odds for all draws, and (4) allow gamble crates to be disabled entirely for vulnerable customers in their game settings. Ideally, also: (5) abolish all fake currencies for in-game microtransactions - all purchases are made with actual money only and are FULLY refundable.

This would make these boxes less a form of gambling and more of an equitable exchange. Which is, of course, why companies choose not to do any of this...

TelvanniWizard · June 2020

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

For anyone who feels the need to defend greedy practices and argue with literally any thread that has a problem with crown crates.. why? Its obvious, whether you consider it gambling or not (the common moral issue), that the amount of money required to acquire [insert prized crate item] is exorbitantly higher than the amount of money required to purchase items in the crown store. Excuse me... higheris highly subjective, since you have a chance to acquire it in the first crate.

If you could still acquire the same items via regular crown purchase, it would be okay. Then crown crates would have a different value/purpose as a mystery/variety pack, with a chance to get something incredible! But we all know they are there to milk customers for money. In fact, they are designed to be a trap, giving you, not crowns, but crown gems in return for converting items (which is its own issue since things are automatically added to your collection, even if you'd rather convert them: i.e. a male character acquiring a female costume, and no, "make a female character" is not a valid argument). This further enforces the- I would say forces players/customers to purchase more crates. And spare me the invalid "personal choice" argument (yes, it is a valid point, but an invalid argument when the topic at hand is crown crates are a disgustingly greedy trend that needs to exit the gaming world asap). Speaking of invalid arguments... "other games also-" in that case they are also greedy and are also subject to the point of this thread. Money isn't evil, its a way to organize this crazy complicated world we live in. Greed. Is. Though.

If crown crates/loot crates/gamble crates/any variation or incarnation... if they were done away with and items were only offered in an honest way (direct purchase, and only one currency: crowns), it would benefit you. So... why defend them??? Are you that desperate to swim upstream? Do you like to subject yourself to others' greed? Do you prefer to spend more money vs less (and even if you do, its illogical nonetheless)?

I see more arguments about semantics than the actual issue smh.

How about this... what if you go to your favorite clothing store and all the nice clothes are only offered via mystery grab bags (and only some bags contain nice clothes, and you still have no clue what exactly if its what you want). But its okay because regular t-shirts are for direct sale? How about groceries? Want an apple, but get an orange... but its okay, because if you keep buying more "groceries" maybe you'll eventually get the apple, or acquire enough vouchers to trade in vouchers for an apple... oh but you need to spend XXX to acquire enough vouchers to get that apple, even though the apple is really only worth X. The principle is simple and clear.

Well said, sir!

zergbase_ESO · June 2020

Starlock wrote: »

zergbase_ESO wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

When legislation catches up with gambling in video games, the gamble crates will go away. When the gamble crates go away, so will the gems.

Yeah seems Britain make good headway for that. Honestly hope it comes state side.

I'm not optimistic about the United States enacting meaningful legislation on this issue. Our federal government is too much bought out by corporate interests these days. Gambling is extremely profitable, including for video game publishers, and the heaps of money they will spend lobbying against the people's interests here.

What's sad is that they could have their "surprise mechanics" and do it ethically. They choose not to. ESO gamble crates could be fixed by: (1) removing radiant apex mounts or any other rewards unable to be obtained with gems, (2) removing the ability to draw duplicate items -or- refunding the FULL amount of gems for duplicates drawn thereby setting a spending ceiling (3) disclosing the odds for all draws, and (4) allow gamble crates to be disabled entirely for vulnerable customers in their game settings. Ideally, also: (5) abolish all fake currencies for in-game microtransactions - all purchases are made with actual money only and are FULLY refundable.

This would make these boxes less a form of gambling and more of an equitable exchange. Which is, of course, why companies choose not to do any of this...

You're not wrong. There is one legislator trying push headway on it from his experience with EA. But that is our issue currently as you said. As well with current political climate this issue on the FAAAR back burner.

Kiralyn2000 · June 2020

Yamenstein wrote: »

what_the wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

When legislation catches up with gambling in video games, the gamble crates will go away. When the gamble crates go away, so will the gems.

Well, is it gambling when you are guaranteed to get an item from a crate when you open it? imo no.
It may not be an item you want or need, but you will always get a return with every single crate you open.
Vegas guarantees you absolutely nothing when you go there to play, that's gambling.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

🦆

If I spent $5 to play a game of chance and I was always guaranteed to win 0.05c it's still "gambling".

So if you buy a pack of Pokemon or baseball cards, or a random grab-bag at a discount or clothing store, or a "blind box" action figure at a toy store, etc... are all of those "gambling" as well, and do we need to remove them all to protect gambling addicts and/or children?

...Meanwhile, all those digital items that are for sale in the crown store, or in crates? According to ZOS, they have 0 value at all - back when they had one of those "win all the mounts" sweepstakes, they published one of those blocks of legal fineprint that all sweepstakes have - odds of winning, value of prizes, etc. And the quoted value of the only prize ("all the mounts") was $0.

So even when you buy specific items from the Crown store, you're technically exchanging your money for... nothing.

Feizao · June 2020

I would have a smaller issue about this game's monetization if the product worked as intended in the first place

Jeffrey530 · June 2020

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

For anyone who feels the need to defend greedy practices and argue with literally any thread that has a problem with crown crates.. why? Its obvious, whether you consider it gambling or not (the common moral issue), that the amount of money required to acquire [insert prized crate item] is exorbitantly higher than the amount of money required to purchase items in the crown store. Excuse me... higheris highly subjective, since you have a chance to acquire it in the first crate.

If you could still acquire the same items via regular crown purchase, it would be okay. Then crown crates would have a different value/purpose as a mystery/variety pack, with a chance to get something incredible! But we all know they are there to milk customers for money. In fact, they are designed to be a trap, giving you, not crowns, but crown gems in return for converting items (which is its own issue since things are automatically added to your collection, even if you'd rather convert them: i.e. a male character acquiring a female costume, and no, "make a female character" is not a valid argument). This further enforces the- I would say forces players/customers to purchase more crates. And spare me the invalid "personal choice" argument (yes, it is a valid point, but an invalid argument when the topic at hand is crown crates are a disgustingly greedy trend that needs to exit the gaming world asap). Speaking of invalid arguments... "other games also-" in that case they are also greedy and are also subject to the point of this thread. Money isn't evil, its a way to organize this crazy complicated world we live in. Greed. Is. Though.

If crown crates/loot crates/gamble crates/any variation or incarnation... if they were done away with and items were only offered in an honest way (direct purchase, and only one currency: crowns), it would benefit you. So... why defend them??? Are you that desperate to swim upstream? Do you like to subject yourself to others' greed? Do you prefer to spend more money vs less (and even if you do, its illogical nonetheless)?

I see more arguments about semantics than the actual issue smh.

How about this... what if you go to your favorite clothing store and all the nice clothes are only offered via mystery grab bags (and only some bags contain nice clothes, and you still have no clue what exactly if its what you want). But its okay because regular t-shirts are for direct sale? How about groceries? Want an apple, but get an orange... but its okay, because if you keep buying more "groceries" maybe you'll eventually get the apple, or acquire enough vouchers to trade in vouchers for an apple... oh but you need to spend XXX to acquire enough vouchers to get that apple, even though the apple is really only worth X. The principle is simple and clear.

Because idm if I have to pay more for a more exclusive cosmetic, plus opening crates are fun. Baffling you used groceries as an example since those are essential items. The t shirt idea is a nice one tho

Elsonso · June 2020

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

...Meanwhile, all those digital items that are for sale in the crown store, or in crates? According to ZOS, they have 0 value at all

So even when you buy specific items from the Crown store, you're technically exchanging your money for... nothing.

That is the big rub about all of the in-game content. You can't take it home with you. As soon as the game closes, every single little trinket that you have purchased in the Crown Store, or coaxed out of a Crown Crate, is gone forever.

In the end, they are a sand castle after high tide.

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Baffling you used groceries as an example since those are essential items. The t shirt idea is a nice one tho

Neither is really a good comparison, although both work for demonstrating a difference that most people in here will understand.

Loot crates have a significant psychological aspect to them that neither really focuses on, and it is that psychological aspect that drives the sales that keep game studio executives all tingly. When loot box sales start flagging, they put better stuff in there to drive people to buy them. Things like little violins, or emotes that get promoted for PVP, drive more people to buy them, and people will spend many times more money trying to get them than they would if they were just put into the store at a fixed price.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil · June 2020

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

So even when you buy specific items from the Crown store, you're technically exchanging your money for... nothing.

Hope you don't mind my chiming in.

First of all, this is arguing semantics. Regardless, gross monetization is gross monetization.

Second of all, funny you mention that because... that's part of the problem. That is why companies can get away with it. Technicalities. That's why there are so many laws, and bylaws, in regards to just about anything. Warning labels, especially the ones that seem obvious, most always have a law-suit story behind them. Someone, somewhere, is always looking for a loop hole. In this case, all these items holding no value makes the issue clear as mud. Other countries are already moving to address crates and the like because... come on....

Yamenstein wrote: »

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck...

*applauds*

Are we still receiving something when purchasing/opening a crown crate? Yes. But lets be honest... who wants the potion/food/poison/other irrelevant items? We want the rare rewards, which are advertised, hyped up, and dangled in front of our faces every time we log in or see a new post on social media. I am so tired of seeing the stale argument "BuT yOu StIlL gEt SoMeThInG sO iTs NoT gAmBlIng." The end goal (slot machine jackpot vs desired crate item) is what matters. You don't go to a casino to donate your money, you are putting that coin in the slot and pulling the lever hoping for a jackpot (or whatever casino game it is you fancy, you still play to WIN). You are purchasing a crown crate hoping for a specific item, or multiple items! Whether its technically gambling or not, its preying on the same human desire, and designed to get more money out of you, instead of being a mutual exchange in good faith. You give me money, I give you [insert product/service]. Even if you don't think its "gambling" would you not have a problem if your hair stylist decided to give you a random hair cut and demand you pay them again for the one you want?

It would be different if we could still purchase crate exclusive items with crowns. But no, you have to buy crates for a chance to get what you want, and if you don't get it, you have to purchase more crates for another chance, or to obtain a second currency... and crown gem prices are criminal. Combine that with how few gems you get in one pull, and how many pulls you'd need to obtain 400 gems?

Do you quit the slot machine after you lose once? Or do you keep playing till you win/run out of money? Yah, you can quit any time, but that's not the point. You buy a crate to get the prized item. So for the other common, invalid argument... how does "PeRsOnAl ChOiCe" disprove that crates are "bs game monetization?" Personal choice doesn't make gambling not gambling.

Did I get them all? I think I got them all. If not, let me have it. Im game.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil · June 2020

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

For anyone who feels the need to defend greedy practices and argue with literally any thread that has a problem with crown crates.. why? Its obvious, whether you consider it gambling or not (the common moral issue), that the amount of money required to acquire [insert prized crate item] is exorbitantly higher than the amount of money required to purchase items in the crown store. Excuse me... higheris highly subjective, since you have a chance to acquire it in the first crate.

If you could still acquire the same items via regular crown purchase, it would be okay. Then crown crates would have a different value/purpose as a mystery/variety pack, with a chance to get something incredible! But we all know they are there to milk customers for money. In fact, they are designed to be a trap, giving you, not crowns, but crown gems in return for converting items (which is its own issue since things are automatically added to your collection, even if you'd rather convert them: i.e. a male character acquiring a female costume, and no, "make a female character" is not a valid argument). This further enforces the- I would say forces players/customers to purchase more crates. And spare me the invalid "personal choice" argument (yes, it is a valid point, but an invalid argument when the topic at hand is crown crates are a disgustingly greedy trend that needs to exit the gaming world asap). Speaking of invalid arguments... "other games also-" in that case they are also greedy and are also subject to the point of this thread. Money isn't evil, its a way to organize this crazy complicated world we live in. Greed. Is. Though.

If crown crates/loot crates/gamble crates/any variation or incarnation... if they were done away with and items were only offered in an honest way (direct purchase, and only one currency: crowns), it would benefit you. So... why defend them??? Are you that desperate to swim upstream? Do you like to subject yourself to others' greed? Do you prefer to spend more money vs less (and even if you do, its illogical nonetheless)?

I see more arguments about semantics than the actual issue smh.

How about this... what if you go to your favorite clothing store and all the nice clothes are only offered via mystery grab bags (and only some bags contain nice clothes, and you still have no clue what exactly if its what you want). But its okay because regular t-shirts are for direct sale? How about groceries? Want an apple, but get an orange... but its okay, because if you keep buying more "groceries" maybe you'll eventually get the apple, or acquire enough vouchers to trade in vouchers for an apple... oh but you need to spend XXX to acquire enough vouchers to get that apple, even though the apple is really only worth X. The principle is simple and clear.

Because idm if I have to pay more for a more exclusive cosmetic, plus opening crates are fun. Baffling you used groceries as an example since those are essential items. The t shirt idea is a nice one tho

I know I know lol, but thats the point: people would be in an uproar if thats how essential items were treated. So why should it be okay if its for a cosmetic item in a video game?

[edit to add:]... and sometimes you have to explain the same concept multiple ways for someone to truly understand. Not a dig, just literal psychology. Your response is the perfect example: In this case, even if you like opening crates, their intent is not to give you the enjoyment of opening a crate: its to milk your wallet. Yah, you (not you you because I don't know how you pay for your crowns) can use your sub crowns, but not everyone is a sub, so... that argument needs to stop getting thrown around too. I personally don't care if I need to pay for things, its how the world works (*cough* money is done away with in the star trek universe *cough* woke *cough*). I enjoy the crown furniture store, even though I still think things are overpriced. (its not like they are accounting for the cost of materials to produce every single bookshelf sold). Yah, wages/bills need paid, but at what point are the wages/bills paid in full? When is it a decent profit (which is well earned)? And when is it just greed?

My main issue isn't even that its gambling. Its manipulation, no matter how you cut it. A way to manipulate players/customers into spending more money. That alone should drive anyone mad.

Shagreth · June 2020

I have been saying this ever since the first Loot Crates were introduced to an online game. The practice is deplorable, it's gambling and it should be condemned by us, but as long as there's people literally blowing thousands upon thousands with each new wave of crates, well, I don't see them changing anything about this. It wouldn't even be Okay if they added equally cool stuff obtainable through playing the game or even for crowns, Loot Crates simply have to go. Unless there's some new law to cover this, crates are here to stay. I really wish that the community as a whole could see how damaging and unethical this practice is.

tldr: crown store is fine (albeit overpriced) the devs can't live on air, but crown crates should vanish.

WhyMustItBe · June 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

I would prefer it if legislation wasn't necessary, for anything.

However, unfortunately, corporations prove, every day, that they will just carry on pushing the limits until someone finally stops them.

...and this includes some of the biggest corporations in the world, run by some of the biggest names.

Some of whom have bought up huge swathes of what was formally known as journalism and other bodies that directly influence governments, every day.

All to further their own interests, while posing as "philanthropists".

Agree 100%. Corporations have been nothing but thinly veiled organized crime since the US repealed and otherwise stopped enforcing anti-trust laws, and made greed the new 'patriotism' aka GOD.

There is nothing good about a corporation. It is value extraction from the many for the few, plain and simple. Nothing anyone can claim in their defense will sway me. No stories of happy families and job creation and trickle down. It is ALL BS.

Corporations are scum, built to insulate the scum that runs them, at the expense of us all and the progress of humanity.

It is why we are still burning fossil fuel when we have had molten salt reactor technology for 60+ efing years.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil · June 2020

Shagreth wrote: »

I have been saying this ever since the first Loot Crates were introduced to an online game. The practice is deplorable, it's gambling and it should be condemned by us, but as long as there's people literally blowing thousands upon thousands with each new wave of crates, well, I don't see them changing anything about this. It wouldn't even be Okay if they added equally cool stuff obtainable through playing the game or even for crowns, Loot Crates simply have to go. Unless there's some new law to cover this, crates are here to stay. I really wish that the community as a whole could see how damaging and unethical this practice is.

tldr: crown store is fine (albeit overpriced) the devs can't live on air, but crown crates should vanish.

Great point, because I eluded to leaving crates as is so long as they offered the SAME EXACT items for crowns in a previous post (more as a pessimistic "crates will likely never go away, or not anytime soon at least," here is a bandaid solution). But it should all just be banished to oblivion... no... no no... we know how things have found their way back from there before... better just burn the whole thing down.

The fact that we have crown crate exclusive items is a true display of colors. The concept of loot/gamble/chance crates as a whole is *drum roll* deplorable. Not even your typical micro-transaction is as deplorable as crates, and their various ugly cousins (*cough* EA loot crates *cough*).

TelvanniWizard · June 2020

@Scion_of_Yggdrasil you are really saying what has to be said, in a clear, sensible way. Thank you.