APM Discussion: Raising the Floor While Keeping the Ceiling (via Optional Toggles)

GrumpyDuckling

I believe I have the beginnings of a constructive way to lessen the gap between low APM (actions per minute) players and high APM players -- effectively raising the lowest of the floor, while keeping the ceiling the same.

The Idea: Simplify rotations for low APM (actions per minute) players by implementing optional toggles for select skills that will allow those skills to remain "on" permanently while slotted on one of your weapon bars. These toggle-able skills will remain active at all times, even through bar-swap. This will remove the need for players to press a button to gain benefits from the skill (thus simplifying their rotation). However, toggling a skill "on" also comes at the cost of the skill becoming [x]% less effective. The reason there is a slight reduction in efficiency for toggled skills is to keep the current state of skills/rotations for high-end content (the ceiling) mostly untouched, yet significantly raise the floor for low APM players by reducing total button presses (at a slight cost to skill efficiency) but still gaining some power/support for that shortened rotation.
Simple Explanation:

If a player is only capable of reliably using a 6-button rotation effectively, then often they are not getting much out of 4 skill slots that just sit there ineffectively/with low up-time on their skill bar. The idea is to allow the player to fill in those 4 spots with optional toggles to at least get some use out of those 4 previously low efficiency slots by filling them in with some buffs/utility that will remain on to enhance and make their 6-button rotation more effective. That should raise their floor.

How it Works: Select skills can be turned into toggles that will remain active as long as the skill remains slotted on one of your weapon bars. You can select a toggle-able skill and press (Ctrl on PC, or Right Thumbstick on console) to toggle the skill on/off.

Example: A skill like Lotus Flower (Warden) can be toggled on to remain active at all times, meaning a player does not have to press a button to activate the skill. If toggled "on," Lotus Flower remains active at all times (regardless of which bar it is on), but loses 2% critical off of it's base value, and offers 5% less healing.
Note: The numbers in this example are merely placeholders that reflect untested values.

Why Implement this Idea? To move in the direction of applying ZOS' vision to lessen the wide gap between high and low APM players. The intent is to raise the floor, but keep the ceiling the same.

From the Light/Heavy Attack PTS:

"Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP. While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb."

Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/517545/pts-patch-notes-testing-ideas-for-light-heavy-attacks-in-combat

Initial Class Skills Worth Considering for Toggle

Dragonknight

• Inferno
• Spiked Armor
• Dragon Blood
• Molten Weapons

Necromancer

• Bone Armor
• Skeletal Mage (toggle auto-recasts upon expiration)
• Spirit Mender (toggle auto-recasts upon expiration)

Nightblade

• Blur
• Mark Target
• Summon Shade (only the Dark Shade morph that moves)
• Siphoning Strikes

Sorcerer

• Unstable Clannfear
• Winged Twilight
• Lightning Form (Hurricane morph shrinks then regrows continuously)
• Surge

Templar

• Solar Flare (only the Solar Barrage Morph)
• Eclipse (only the Living Dark Morph)
• Rune Focus (perhaps some kind of alteration to cast on self?)

Warden

• Betty Netch
• Living Vines
• Lotus Flower
• Frost Cloak
• Arctic Wind

Potential Barriers and Balance Discussion:

• Determining which skills should get the toggle treatment likely needs specific standards. Most skills eligible for toggles would probably have to be cast-on-self/allies skills and buffs, and not environmentally-placed skills. For example, a cast-on-ground skill like Cleansing Ritual (Templar) would not be a toggle-able skill.
• Certain skills might need slight tweaks that don't change the function of the skill, but better allow them to operate as a toggle.
• Certain class and skill line passives may need a slight update to their activation conditions to ensure that they perform with toggles.
• Toggles would have to be monitored closely in PVP to see if they are notably affecting the ceiling. Battle Spirit could potentially be involved with toggle skills to some extent based on the reduction percentages of toggled skills.
• Some team-wide buff skills such as Molten Weapons and Frost Cloak need to be considered more closely (would the whole team get a % reduction to the buffs if the "caster" has the skill toggled "on?").
• Certain classes would have access to more toggle skills -- this would need to be examined further to determine if this is a significant balance issue.
• There would need to be balance of resource cost for toggles. Currently, it costs resources to activate most skills, and a permanent toggle would not fit into the current resource balance. See post #7 from @YandereGirlfriend for interesting suggestions of how to handle this.

*Post edited to add list of potential class skills worth considering.

idk

I do not understand the idea. It sounds like OP is suggesting Zos create a toggle where the game plays itself and the player just watches. It literally reads two different ways depending on which part one reads.

The first sounds like the player would merely press one button the skill that needs to activate will do so. I assume that is pressing the same button over and over based on how it reads.

The second is the "How it work" which seems to suggest if the skill is toggled on it will fire when it needs to fire as it will remain active as long as the skill is toggled on. DoTs never fall off the target, a never-ending WoE , and Endless Hail will truly be endless now.

The second idea is certainly worse than the first as it seems more just point the character at the target and let the character go at it. It seems more like watching a movie than playing a game.

Edit: I think OP missed a very important point Zos made during that off-cycle PTS testing a couple of months ago. They still want to retain the active combat in ESO that separates this game from WoW, FF14, and others. They made that point very clear in their original statement.

the1andonlyskwex

Here is an incomplete list of problems with your idea:
1) You're adding a hugely complex new mechanic to the game. Basically, every skill with this toggle option will have additional morphs that need to be balanced.
2) What's stopping high APM players from slotting the toggle versions of skills to free up GCDs in their rotation for other things?
3) The reduced power of the toggle-able version means that anyone using it as you're intending will continue to be at a significant disadvantage.
4) You're not addressing the real problem, which is light attack weaving, and the fact that it's both highly effective and very timing/skill sensitive.

GrumpyDuckling

idk wrote: »

I do not understand the idea. It sounds like OP is suggesting Zos create a toggle where the game plays itself and the player just watches. It literally reads two different ways depending on which part one reads.

The first sounds like the player would merely press one button the skill that needs to activate will do so. I assume that is pressing the same button over and over based on how it reads.

The second is the "How it work" which seems to suggest if the skill is toggled on it will fire when it needs to fire as it will remain active as long as the skill is toggled on. DoTs never fall off the target, a never-ending WoE , and Endless Hail will truly be endless now.

The second idea is certainly worse than the first as it seems more just point the character at the target and let the character go at it. It seems more like watching a movie than playing a game.

Edit: I think OP missed a very important point Zos made during that off-cycle PTS testing a couple of months ago. They still want to retain the active combat in ESO that separates this game from WoW, FF14, and others. They made that point very clear in their original statement.

DOT skills and skills like Endless Hail wouldn't make sense as a toggle. If you are confused, please see this part of the first post:

"Determining which skills should get the toggle treatment likely needs specific standards. Most skills eligible for toggles would probably have to be cast-on-self/allies skills and buffs, and not environmentally-placed skills. For example, a cast-on-ground skill like Cleansing Ritual (Templar) would not be a toggle-able skill."

idk

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not understand the idea. It sounds like OP is suggesting Zos create a toggle where the game plays itself and the player just watches. It literally reads two different ways depending on which part one reads.

The first sounds like the player would merely press one button the skill that needs to activate will do so. I assume that is pressing the same button over and over based on how it reads.

The second is the "How it work" which seems to suggest if the skill is toggled on it will fire when it needs to fire as it will remain active as long as the skill is toggled on. DoTs never fall off the target, a never-ending WoE , and Endless Hail will truly be endless now.

The second idea is certainly worse than the first as it seems more just point the character at the target and let the character go at it. It seems more like watching a movie than playing a game.

Edit: I think OP missed a very important point Zos made during that off-cycle PTS testing a couple of months ago. They still want to retain the active combat in ESO that separates this game from WoW, FF14, and others. They made that point very clear in their original statement.

DOT skills and skills like Endless Hail wouldn't make sense as a toggle. If you are confused, please see this part of the first post:

"Determining which skills should get the toggle treatment likely needs specific standards. Most skills eligible for toggles would probably have to be cast-on-self/allies skills and buffs, and not environmentally-placed skills. For example, a cast-on-ground skill like Cleansing Ritual (Templar) would not be a toggle-able skill."

So I am correct. It is, in part, having the computer play the game for the player.

GrumpyDuckling

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Here is an incomplete list of problems with your idea:
1) You're adding a hugely complex new mechanic to the game. Basically, every skill with this toggle option will have additional morphs that need to be balanced.
2) What's stopping high APM players from slotting the toggle versions of skills to free up GCDs in their rotation for other things?
3) The reduced power of the toggle-able version means that anyone using it as you're intending will continue to be at a significant disadvantage.
4) You're not addressing the real problem, which is light attack weaving, and the fact that it's both highly effective and very timing/skill sensitive.

1) Why would additional morphs be needed?

2) They absolutely can slot toggles, but they can't add other things (the skill still needs to be slotted). So high APM players who can maintain buffs would benefit more from a non-toggle.

3) I don't see how it would be a disadvantage. If a low APM player can't maintain buffs then those buffs are sitting dead/useless on the bar. As a toggle that buff is at least contributing, despite a reduction in effectiveness.

4) This isn't an attempt to address light attack weaving, but light attack weaving becomes easier to perform with a simpler rotation.

YandereGirlfriend

I would prefer that they increased the durations of buffs across the board as SO much time in ESO is spent simply applying your self-buffs.

That said, as a general principle, I think that accessibility is a good thing and, as such, I think that your idea is interesting.

One important tweak (unless I missed it) would be that the toggle should still have an internal timer and reduce your applicable resource whenever it tolls. That way you aren't getting a huge tranche of sustain for free. You could perhaps balance that by making the toggle cost greater than the non-toggle cost and then keep the original power of the buff that you are applying, so that you would have to build in more sustain but would still get the full power of the skill.

GrumpyDuckling

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not understand the idea. It sounds like OP is suggesting Zos create a toggle where the game plays itself and the player just watches. It literally reads two different ways depending on which part one reads.

The first sounds like the player would merely press one button the skill that needs to activate will do so. I assume that is pressing the same button over and over based on how it reads.

The second is the "How it work" which seems to suggest if the skill is toggled on it will fire when it needs to fire as it will remain active as long as the skill is toggled on. DoTs never fall off the target, a never-ending WoE , and Endless Hail will truly be endless now.

The second idea is certainly worse than the first as it seems more just point the character at the target and let the character go at it. It seems more like watching a movie than playing a game.

Edit: I think OP missed a very important point Zos made during that off-cycle PTS testing a couple of months ago. They still want to retain the active combat in ESO that separates this game from WoW, FF14, and others. They made that point very clear in their original statement.

DOT skills and skills like Endless Hail wouldn't make sense as a toggle. If you are confused, please see this part of the first post:

"Determining which skills should get the toggle treatment likely needs specific standards. Most skills eligible for toggles would probably have to be cast-on-self/allies skills and buffs, and not environmentally-placed skills. For example, a cast-on-ground skill like Cleansing Ritual (Templar) would not be a toggle-able skill."

So I am correct. It is, in part, having the computer play the game for the player.

Please explain what you mean.

GrumpyDuckling

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I would prefer that they increased the durations of buffs across the board as SO much time in ESO is spent simply applying your self-buffs.

That said, as a general principle, I think that accessibility is a good thing and, as such, I think that your idea is interesting.

One important tweak (unless I missed it) would be that the toggle should still have an internal timer and reduce your applicable resource whenever it tolls. That way you aren't getting a huge tranche of sustain for free. You could perhaps balance that by making the toggle cost greater than the non-toggle cost and then keep the original power of the buff that you are applying, so that you would have to build in more sustain but would still get the full power of the skill.

Ah! Excellent feedback about cost/sustain/resources. I'll add that into discussions/balance. Thank you.

the1andonlyskwex

1) You're not calling them additional morphs, but that's effectively what they are: variations on the base skill that behave slightly differently.
2/3) Why can't I just cast my spammables more times in my rotation? Depending how you you balance things, you either make the toggle versions useless (i.e. a low APM player would be better off just casting their spammables less, or light attacking less to keep the buff up), or making the toggle versions buffs for high APM players (because they can use the toggle versions to add additional spammables to their rotation).
4) Why would you try to fix the high vs low APM problem without touching light attacks? Light attack weaving IS the problem.

GrumpyDuckling

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

1) You're not calling them additional morphs, but that's effectively what they are: variations on the base skill that behave slightly differently.
2/3) Why can't I just cast my spammables more times in my rotation? Depending how you you balance things, you either make the toggle versions useless (i.e. a low APM player would be better off just casting their spammables less, or light attacking less to keep the buff up), or making the toggle versions buffs for high APM players (because they can use the toggle versions to add additional spammables to their rotation).
4) Why would you try to fix the high vs low APM problem without touching light attacks? Light attack weaving IS the problem.

1) The only variation would be in effectiveness between whether it is toggled or not.

2/3) Additional spammables could be possible in your scenario, but then adjustments would have to be made by the player to consider sustain, as well as the fact that their toggled buffs are giving them less power, so spammables would be hitting for less -- meaning more would be necessary... so I'm not entirely convinced that this would be a problem.

4) Low APM isn't exclusive to light attacks. Hence this post. I'm not arguing against you that light attack weaving is a problem concerning APM -- it's just not the focus of this post.

idk

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not understand the idea. It sounds like OP is suggesting Zos create a toggle where the game plays itself and the player just watches. It literally reads two different ways depending on which part one reads.

The first sounds like the player would merely press one button the skill that needs to activate will do so. I assume that is pressing the same button over and over based on how it reads.

The second is the "How it work" which seems to suggest if the skill is toggled on it will fire when it needs to fire as it will remain active as long as the skill is toggled on. DoTs never fall off the target, a never-ending WoE , and Endless Hail will truly be endless now.

The second idea is certainly worse than the first as it seems more just point the character at the target and let the character go at it. It seems more like watching a movie than playing a game.

Edit: I think OP missed a very important point Zos made during that off-cycle PTS testing a couple of months ago. They still want to retain the active combat in ESO that separates this game from WoW, FF14, and others. They made that point very clear in their original statement.

DOT skills and skills like Endless Hail wouldn't make sense as a toggle. If you are confused, please see this part of the first post:

"Determining which skills should get the toggle treatment likely needs specific standards. Most skills eligible for toggles would probably have to be cast-on-self/allies skills and buffs, and not environmentally-placed skills. For example, a cast-on-ground skill like Cleansing Ritual (Templar) would not be a toggle-able skill."

So I am correct. It is, in part, having the computer play the game for the player.

Please explain what you mean.

I did. If we no longer have to use a skill, just toggle it on, then we are playing less of the game.

Cased in point, sorc pets and the warden bear do a lot less damage if the player is not involved, yet they are toggles. It is the active skills that make the difference in the DPS the sorc can do.

Regardless, you know say this has to do with buffs, not actual skills that directly do DPS. The players that are at the low end of the skill curve are not challenged with DPS buffs but actual how fast and reliable they are delivering skills. That is why they are low APM players. If they still need to press the buttons in a timely manner to do actual DPS they will still be low APM and still have low DPS. That is the fact of the matter. The idea presented will not raise the floor. It will just make it so some people will have a slightly higher uptime of a buff or two.

I knew a guy who played on one bar. AoE on the back bar and single target on the front. I suggested is use a normal build and start swapping bars. I suggested not stressing about his DPS but focus on getting used to swapping bars in combat. Eventually, he tried it and his DPS rose and he enjoyed playing the game more. To this day he is still a very casual player, but working to improve one's gameplay is what actually improves it.

Have a good day.

GrumpyDuckling

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not understand the idea. It sounds like OP is suggesting Zos create a toggle where the game plays itself and the player just watches. It literally reads two different ways depending on which part one reads.

The first sounds like the player would merely press one button the skill that needs to activate will do so. I assume that is pressing the same button over and over based on how it reads.

The second is the "How it work" which seems to suggest if the skill is toggled on it will fire when it needs to fire as it will remain active as long as the skill is toggled on. DoTs never fall off the target, a never-ending WoE , and Endless Hail will truly be endless now.

The second idea is certainly worse than the first as it seems more just point the character at the target and let the character go at it. It seems more like watching a movie than playing a game.

Edit: I think OP missed a very important point Zos made during that off-cycle PTS testing a couple of months ago. They still want to retain the active combat in ESO that separates this game from WoW, FF14, and others. They made that point very clear in their original statement.

DOT skills and skills like Endless Hail wouldn't make sense as a toggle. If you are confused, please see this part of the first post:

"Determining which skills should get the toggle treatment likely needs specific standards. Most skills eligible for toggles would probably have to be cast-on-self/allies skills and buffs, and not environmentally-placed skills. For example, a cast-on-ground skill like Cleansing Ritual (Templar) would not be a toggle-able skill."

So I am correct. It is, in part, having the computer play the game for the player.

Please explain what you mean.

I did. If we no longer have to use a skill, just toggle it on, then we are playing less of the game.

Cased in point, sorc pets and the warden bear do a lot less damage if the player is not involved, yet they are toggles. It is the active skills that make the difference in the DPS the sorc can do.

Regardless, you know say this has to do with buffs, not actual skills that directly do DPS. The players that are at the low end of the skill curve are not challenged with DPS buffs but actual how fast and reliable they are delivering skills. That is why they are low APM players. If they still need to press the buttons in a timely manner to do actual DPS they will still be low APM and still have low DPS. That is the fact of the matter. The idea presented will not raise the floor. It will just make it so some people will have a slightly higher uptime of a buff or two.

I knew a guy who played on one bar. AoE on the back bar and single target on the front. I suggested is use a normal build and start swapping bars. I suggested not stressing about his DPS but focus on getting used to swapping bars in combat. Eventually, he tried it and his DPS rose and he enjoyed playing the game more. To this day he is still a very casual player, but working to improve one's gameplay is what actually improves it.

Have a good day.

You don't have to toggle it on -- it's optional (which I even mention in the title...). And, you stand to benefit more by not toggling.

You are talking about players not being "fast and reliable delivering skills" -- so one of the major points of this post is to reduce the amount of skills they need to deliver. If they aren't fast, then they likely aren't reliably using all 10 skills, which means there are just dead spots on their bar. Having an optional toggle at least gives them some benefit to having those skills on their bar -- allowing them to reduce their button presses to a number that is more comfortable for them with less dead skills/slots... thus, raising their floor.

By the way, Improving/Mastery is still the goal. If a player is only capable of a 6-button rotation, then this at least raises their floor by not seeing the remaining 4 slots go to waste. Maybe that player starts mastering that 6-button rotation and eventually expands to 7 or 8 -- now they are even better because they get the full benefit of previously toggled (diminished) buffs.

Joy_Division

I don't think the concept of APM is a very useful one to begin with, if anything I'd bet what's more frustrating to players is when they have the similar APMs as their favorite youtuber yet are still have 10-15K lower DPS.

Also I doubt making it such that skills are less effective for players who are playing less effectively to begin is going to have the impact that you and ZOS would like.

GrumpyDuckling

Joy_Division wrote: »

Also I doubt making it such that skills are less effective for players who are playing less effectively to begin is going to have the impact that you and ZOS would like.

The reason the skills are slightly less effective as toggles is to maintain the ceiling. But, the intent of the idea is to allow the players who are at the lowest of the floor to raise by giving them access to those toggles when they otherwise could not use those skills effectively in their rotation. For example:

If a player is only capable of reliably using a 6-button rotation effectively, then often they are not getting much out of 4 skill slots that just sit there ineffectively/with low up-time on their skill bar. The idea is to allow the player to fill in those 4 spots with optional toggles to at least get some use out of those 4 previously low efficiency slots by filling them in with some buffs/utility that will remain on to enhance and make their 6-button rotation more effective. That should raise their floor.

zvavi

I disagree with you on all accounts. for those reasons:
1. The floor doesn't have a rotation.
2. Toggles will actually help the ceiling, freeing up GCD's for the sack of more spammables.
3. Those that are aware of rotation, already have one that doesn't require as much. It is called a DoT build, with heavy attacks. To those, the toggle will help as much as it does to the ceiling, maybe less.
4. Raising the floor is done compared to the ceiling. and since your idea frees GCD's, not sure it helps the floor more.

If you really want to help the floor it needs to be done:
1. Proper replayable tutorials.
2. Easier gear acquiring through level up rewards, one of the main problems for low level people is that they don't have the gear. Adding blue crafted armor choice sets in level up rewards (including level 50, when it will scale to your level). Trait is obviously training.
3. Last but not least quest mob last bosses with hard mode Scrolls, that will pop their health up by far (at least 500k) and a bit more damage.

eKsDee

Here's the thing, APM is meaningless in the vast majority of content ESO has to offer, even in vet PvE content. It was just Zenimax's scapegoat to pin the skill gap on, without acknowledging the real culprit -- simply, the floor literally does not know how to properly play the game.

In the vast majority of content ESO has to offer, even vet PvE content, the average APM would be anywhere between maybe 120-130, and that's it.

Skills have a global cooldown of about 1 second, so ideally players should be casting a skill every GCD refresh, ie every second. ~60 APM, take a few for human error.

To my knowledge, light attacks have their own separate global cooldown of about 1 second, and are able to be cancelled by immediately following them up with skill casts, so ideally player should lead skill casts by performing a light attack. An additional ~60 APM, take a few for human error, or about 110-120 APM in total.

Then we throw in the odd bar swap, defensive action (dodge, block, bash), and synergy, lets call it even 10-ish APM (1 of these every 6 seconds), for a total of 120-130 APM.

120-130 APM, averaging of about 2-3 actions per second, all of which happen more or less at the same time, leading to a very obvious rhythm to those 2-3 actions per second.

That's really not that much to ask for, and anybody without some physical injury or complication is able to achieve this with enough practice. In other games, you can often have 2-3 entire skill casts overlapping in a single second (main skill, additional skill that is instant cast and is off the GCD, maybe with a follow up skill that gets queued up after the main skill. ESO really is not asking for much.

No, the real issue is the fact that the floor just doesn't know how to properly play the game. Not only are they not even doing the base ~60 APM from skill casts or light attacks (which would provide enough DPS for all normal and most vet base game content), but they don't even know how to properly build their characters and so lack the stats to even reach the minimum DPS required for most content in the game (which Zenimax have repeatedly lowered the necessary stats for, both directly and indirectly through buffs and stronger gear).

The problem with trying to address this, and so I'd imagine the reason why Zenimax is continuously trying to address it indirectly by just raising the floor and bringing up meaningless things like APM to try to pin the blame in, is that so many players are too used to how easy and forgiving the game is, and don't want that to change, no matter how much it would ultimately help the floor to learn how to properly play the game. Just need to look at the various "overland is too easy" threads to see this for yourself.

Putting players in harder content does genuinely make them better players (provided their open to running through harder content and won't just give up when things get tough) -- you just need to look at how people describe the impact of clearing vMA on how well they play -- and the same can be done to overland, to help shape newer players and guide them to the proper playstyles, albeit to a lesser degree so as to not drive them away.

But, as has been proven time and time again in the various "overland is too easy" threads, the vast majority of players aren't open to running through harder content, and will give up when things get tough. So, I seriously doubt the skill gap will actually be addressed, and I can guarantee we'll continue to see Zenimax pin the blame on meaningless things, such as APM.

GrumpyDuckling

zvavi wrote: »

I disagree with you on all accounts. for those reasons:
1. The floor doesn't have a rotation.
2. Toggles will actually help the ceiling, freeing up GCD's for the sack of more spammables.
3. Those that are aware of rotation, already have one that doesn't require as much. It is called a DoT build, with heavy attacks. To those, the toggle will help as much as it does to the ceiling, maybe less.
4. Raising the floor is done compared to the ceiling. and since your idea frees GCD's, not sure it helps the floor more.

If you really want to help the floor it needs to be done:
1. Proper replayable tutorials.
2. Easier gear acquiring through level up rewards, one of the main problems for low level people is that they don't have the gear. Adding blue crafted armor choice sets in level up rewards (including level 50, when it will scale to your level). Trait is obviously training.
3. Last but not least quest mob last bosses with hard mode Scrolls, that will pop their health up by far (at least 500k) and a bit more damage.

The additional spammables off GCD that you speak of likely wouldn't be as much of an issue as you think. Toggled buffs are giving less power, so spammables would be hitting for less -- meaning more would be necessary and sustain issues could creep in... so I'm not entirely convinced that this would be a problem.

If you say "the floor doesn't have a rotation," then all the reason more to put some of those wasted skill slots into use...

GrumpyDuckling

eKsDee wrote: »

Here's the thing, APM is meaningless in the vast majority of content ESO has to offer, even in vet PvE content. It was just Zenimax's scapegoat to pin the skill gap on, without acknowledging the real culprit -- simply, the floor literally does not know how to properly play the game.

In the vast majority of content ESO has to offer, even vet PvE content, the average APM would be anywhere between maybe 120-130, and that's it.

Skills have a global cooldown of about 1 second, so ideally players should be casting a skill every GCD refresh, ie every second. ~60 APM, take a few for human error.

To my knowledge, light attacks have their own separate global cooldown of about 1 second, and are able to be cancelled by immediately following them up with skill casts, so ideally player should lead skill casts by performing a light attack. An additional ~60 APM, take a few for human error, or about 110-120 APM in total.

Then we throw in the odd bar swap, defensive action (dodge, block, bash), and synergy, lets call it even 10-ish APM (1 of these every 6 seconds), for a total of 120-130 APM.

120-130 APM, averaging of about 2-3 actions per second, all of which happen more or less at the same time, leading to a very obvious rhythm to those 2-3 actions per second.

That's really not that much to ask for, and anybody without some physical injury or complication is able to achieve this with enough practice. In other games, you can often have 2-3 entire skill casts overlapping in a single second (main skill, additional skill that is instant cast and is off the GCD, maybe with a follow up skill that gets queued up after the main skill. ESO really is not asking for much.

No, the real issue is the fact that the floor just doesn't know how to properly play the game. Not only are they not even doing the base ~60 APM from skill casts or light attacks (which would provide enough DPS for all normal and most vet base game content), but they don't even know how to properly build their characters and so lack the stats to even reach the minimum DPS required for most content in the game (which Zenimax have repeatedly lowered the necessary stats for, both directly and indirectly through buffs and stronger gear).

The problem with trying to address this, and so I'd imagine the reason why Zenimax is continuously trying to address it indirectly by just raising the floor and bringing up meaningless things like APM to try to pin the blame in, is that so many players are too used to how easy and forgiving the game is, and don't want that to change, no matter how much it would ultimately help the floor to learn how to properly play the game. Just need to look at the various "overland is too easy" threads to see this for yourself.

Putting players in harder content does genuinely make them better players (provided their open to running through harder content and won't just give up when things get tough) -- you just need to look at how people describe the impact of clearing vMA on how well they play -- and the same can be done to overland, to help shape newer players and guide them to the proper playstyles, albeit to a lesser degree so as to not drive them away.

But, as has been proven time and time again in the various "overland is too easy" threads, the vast majority of players aren't open to running through harder content, and will give up when things get tough. So, I seriously doubt the skill gap will actually be addressed, and I can guarantee we'll continue to see Zenimax pin the blame on meaningless things, such as APM.

You are contradicting yourself, so what are you really trying to say here? At the conclusion of your post you refer to APM as being "meaningless," yet you list it as one of the two supporting points for your statement that "the floor just doesn't know how to properly play the game."

You say:
"No, the real issue is the fact that the floor just doesn't know how to properly play the game. Not only are they not even doing the base ~60 APM from skill casts or light attacks (which would provide enough DPS for all normal and most vet base game content), but they don't even know how to properly build their characters and so lack the stats to even reach the minimum DPS required for most content in the game (which Zenimax have repeatedly lowered the necessary stats for, both directly and indirectly through buffs and stronger gear)."

You are including APM as a barrier to success for "normal and most vet base game content" and then using it as a supporting point for your statement, so it doesn't make sense that you would then call it "meaningless."

Your point about players not knowing how to properly build is a fine one, it is just not the focus of this thread. Feel free to start another thread about that topic -- I would be happy to contribute as I have thoughts about that too.

VoxAdActa

I think the idea has some merit, but the application is a classic case of overengineering.

Let's look at sorcs and wardens for a second.

Both of these classes have toggleable skills; in the case of pets, toggleable skills that add a significant amount of DPS. Inexperienced players just let them go and forget about them; more experienced players learn when to use their extra mechanics. The downside of this is, of course, that in order to survive a bar swap, the skills must be on both bars.

I think several of the skills you've mentioned could work very well with the same system. As an NB main, I can't speak to the other classes, but things like siphoning strikes, grim focus, and mark target would be great as toggles. But rather than go back through and not only decrease their toggled efficiency but also rebalance a whole host of other factors (many of which wouldn't even be discovered until it was put into practice), just keep the same downside: they have to be slotted on both bars, or else the bar swap cancels them.

Now, if the goal is to be a set of training wheels for inexperienced players to slowly increase their APM while still getting some benefit, it would be easier and simpler to use a mechanic that already exists: the Elemental Susceptibility morph of Weakness to Elements, in which damaging light attacks refresh the duration. To keep with the training-wheels goal, make it so the BASE form of these skills has this mechanic, and the morphs remove it in favor of greater effectiveness and utility. The early-on incentive to practice LA weaving would be a great introduction to the key DPSing skill needed later on. Get them in the habit of LA weaving from the beginning.

zvavi

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I disagree with you on all accounts. for those reasons:
1. The floor doesn't have a rotation.
2. Toggles will actually help the ceiling, freeing up GCD's for the sack of more spammables.
3. Those that are aware of rotation, already have one that doesn't require as much. It is called a DoT build, with heavy attacks. To those, the toggle will help as much as it does to the ceiling, maybe less.
4. Raising the floor is done compared to the ceiling. and since your idea frees GCD's, not sure it helps the floor more.

If you really want to help the floor it needs to be done:
1. Proper replayable tutorials.
2. Easier gear acquiring through level up rewards, one of the main problems for low level people is that they don't have the gear. Adding blue crafted armor choice sets in level up rewards (including level 50, when it will scale to your level). Trait is obviously training.
3. Last but not least quest mob last bosses with hard mode Scrolls, that will pop their health up by far (at least 500k) and a bit more damage.

The additional spammables off GCD that you speak of likely wouldn't be as much of an issue as you think. Toggled buffs are giving less power, so spammables would be hitting for less -- meaning more would be necessary and sustain issues could creep in... so I'm not entirely convinced that this would be a problem.

If you say "the floor doesn't have a rotation," then all the reason more to put some of those wasted skill slots into use...

If anything, your suggestion will make combat more complicated, and lower the floor (compared to ceiling) unless you mean to make the toggle option so weak no ceiling will use it, and then it will be so bad it won't help the floor either.

I mean, the only "APM" difference between better and worse players, is that better players are just more experienced, only way to make it easier for the "floor" is simplifying combat, or giving them more in-game tools to understand combat. You provide neither.

GrumpyDuckling

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I disagree with you on all accounts. for those reasons:
1. The floor doesn't have a rotation.
2. Toggles will actually help the ceiling, freeing up GCD's for the sack of more spammables.
3. Those that are aware of rotation, already have one that doesn't require as much. It is called a DoT build, with heavy attacks. To those, the toggle will help as much as it does to the ceiling, maybe less.
4. Raising the floor is done compared to the ceiling. and since your idea frees GCD's, not sure it helps the floor more.

If you really want to help the floor it needs to be done:
1. Proper replayable tutorials.
2. Easier gear acquiring through level up rewards, one of the main problems for low level people is that they don't have the gear. Adding blue crafted armor choice sets in level up rewards (including level 50, when it will scale to your level). Trait is obviously training.
3. Last but not least quest mob last bosses with hard mode Scrolls, that will pop their health up by far (at least 500k) and a bit more damage.

The additional spammables off GCD that you speak of likely wouldn't be as much of an issue as you think. Toggled buffs are giving less power, so spammables would be hitting for less -- meaning more would be necessary and sustain issues could creep in... so I'm not entirely convinced that this would be a problem.

If you say "the floor doesn't have a rotation," then all the reason more to put some of those wasted skill slots into use...

If anything, your suggestion will make combat more complicated, and lower the floor (compared to ceiling) unless you mean to make the toggle option so weak no ceiling will use it, and then it will be so bad it won't help the floor either.

I mean, the only "APM" difference between better and worse players, is that better players are just more experienced, only way to make it easier for the "floor" is simplifying combat, or giving them more in-game tools to understand combat. You provide neither.

I'd love to hear why you think optional toggles would lower the floor compared to the ceiling. Specifically, I have already talked about this: "...unless you mean to make the toggle option so weak no ceiling will use it, and then it will be so bad it won't help the floor either."

If a low APM player isn't efficiently utilizing all 10 skills at their disposal, then there is waste on their skill bar. The idea is to allow the low APM player to fill in those wasted spots with optional toggles to at least get some use out of those previously low efficiency slots by filling them in with some buffs/utility that will remain on at all times to enhance the limited skills/attacks that they are capable of using efficiently. That should raise their floor. And the idea is to cut into the efficiency of the toggles just enough during balancing where the ceiling (players with high APM) find it more advantageous to utilize no or very few toggles in their build.

GrumpyDuckling

VoxAdActa wrote: »

...just keep the same downside: they have to be slotted on both bars, or else the bar swap cancels them.

This is a strong suggestion that would aid the floor. If low APM players aren't utilizing all 10 spots efficiently, then double-slotting toggles shouldn't be a problem.

However, I'm not sure if it would raise the floor enough, which is why I was suggesting toggles that don't need to be double-barred. Low APM players likely aren't getting the most out of their bar-swap efficiency nor their skill rotation, so to have some skills sitting on their back bar that are toggled on can at least allow those skills to contribute (at a reduction to their efficiency).

zvavi

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

If a low APM player isn't efficiently utilizing all 10 skills at their disposal

This part proves you have no idea what you are talking about. Amount of APM =/= amount of skills being in use. it takes the same APM to create a static rotation (3 dots on backbar, 1 short dot on front + spammable + execute), and a rotation of "8 passive skills" wall of elements backbar, and spammable front bar. Every 10 skills you will have 10 skills, 10 light attacks, 2 bar swaps. Same APM needed.

You asked me how it won't help floor. I already explained from two different directions, maybe not enough for you to understand. I will try to rearrange my words so it will go through.

Direction 1, low APM players, and what it really means:
Low APM players need to get the most out of the little amount of button presses they have. In other words, full dot rotations. If they fire 8 dot skills in 12 seconds, their APM is relatively lower, but the dmg won't be as bad. Another slot for innerlight + heal/shield and boom, 10 slots already. Low APM players with a build that tries to compromise for it, don't need your idea, and actually LOSE from it because they don't have the bar space. Therefore compare it to the higher end that uses less skills and more spammables (stamplars for example), you now get few more passive damage buffs, boom, ceiling up floor stays the same.

Direction 2, people that don't know how to build a proper rotation.
Those people have nothing to do with low APM. They are just not used to the game. Never tried to get used to a proper rotation. I assume this is the crowd you want to help. Sadly for you, this crowd is always inferior in building their characters to deal damage, and making the system more complicated will harm them the most.

Explanation: minor force will buff character's damage by about 4-5% in endgame, balancing your abilities that don't need to be even casted will mean adding 2% permanent damage (and even then it might be stronger than minor force) 2% x9 skills = 18% damage. Adding hail to backbar would result in more damage buff. You have created a more complicated system that is now misleading the floor to use bad skill choices.

If there is anything I said which is wrong, please correct me.

GrumpyDuckling

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

If a low APM player isn't efficiently utilizing all 10 skills at their disposal

This part proves you have no idea what you are talking about. Amount of APM =/= amount of skills being in use. it takes the same APM to create a static rotation (3 dots on backbar, 1 short dot on front + spammable + execute), and a rotation of "8 passive skills" wall of elements backbar, and spammable front bar. Every 10 skills you will have 10 skills, 10 light attacks, 2 bar swaps. Same APM needed.

You asked me how it won't help floor. I already explained from two different directions, maybe not enough for you to understand. I will try to rearrange my words so it will go through.

Direction 1, low APM players, and what it really means:
Low APM players need to get the most out of the little amount of button presses they have. In other words, full dot rotations. If they fire 8 dot skills in 12 seconds, their APM is relatively lower, but the dmg won't be as bad. Another slot for innerlight + heal/shield and boom, 10 slots already. Low APM players with a build that tries to compromise for it, don't need your idea, and actually LOSE from it because they don't have the bar space. Therefore compare it to the higher end that uses less skills and more spammables (stamplars for example), you now get few more passive damage buffs, boom, ceiling up floor stays the same.

Direction 2, people that don't know how to build a proper rotation.
Those people have nothing to do with low APM. They are just not used to the game. Never tried to get used to a proper rotation. I assume this is the crowd you want to help. Sadly for you, this crowd is always inferior in building their characters to deal damage, and making the system more complicated will harm them the most.

Explanation: minor force will buff character's damage by about 4-5% in endgame, balancing your abilities that don't need to be even casted will mean adding 2% permanent damage (and even then it might be stronger than minor force) 2% x9 skills = 18% damage. Adding hail to backbar would result in more damage buff. You have created a more complicated system that is now misleading the floor to use bad skill choices.

If there is anything I said which is wrong, please correct me.

Clarify some specifics for me, if you don't mind:

Direction 1 - Are you calling players who are using 8 DOT skills in 12 seconds the floor? Because I wouldn't describe them as the floor. This is the type of player who wouldn't need toggles... so I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Direction 2 - How will giving a crowd who struggles to build a "proper" rotation access to toggle skills that can passively help them make them any worse off than they already are? At least a toggle skill that sits there on the bar can contribute more than the skill that is slotted and not doing anything because the player struggles to utilize an efficient rotation. In your explanation scenario, if I understand it correctly, you are describing a player who has the option to use a toggle or not. Sure, go ahead and use hail instead -- that's terrific -- that means the player is capable of using a non-toggle. If the player is not, then they can use a toggle, practice with a simple rotation, get that down, and then work towards expanding their rotation. Again, I don't know what you are trying to say here...

zvavi

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

If a low APM player isn't efficiently utilizing all 10 skills at their disposal

This part proves you have no idea what you are talking about. Amount of APM =/= amount of skills being in use. it takes the same APM to create a static rotation (3 dots on backbar, 1 short dot on front + spammable + execute), and a rotation of "8 passive skills" wall of elements backbar, and spammable front bar. Every 10 skills you will have 10 skills, 10 light attacks, 2 bar swaps. Same APM needed.

You asked me how it won't help floor. I already explained from two different directions, maybe not enough for you to understand. I will try to rearrange my words so it will go through.

Direction 1, low APM players, and what it really means:
Low APM players need to get the most out of the little amount of button presses they have. In other words, full dot rotations. If they fire 8 dot skills in 12 seconds, their APM is relatively lower, but the dmg won't be as bad. Another slot for innerlight + heal/shield and boom, 10 slots already. Low APM players with a build that tries to compromise for it, don't need your idea, and actually LOSE from it because they don't have the bar space. Therefore compare it to the higher end that uses less skills and more spammables (stamplars for example), you now get few more passive damage buffs, boom, ceiling up floor stays the same.

Direction 2, people that don't know how to build a proper rotation.
Those people have nothing to do with low APM. They are just not used to the game. Never tried to get used to a proper rotation. I assume this is the crowd you want to help. Sadly for you, this crowd is always inferior in building their characters to deal damage, and making the system more complicated will harm them the most.

Explanation: minor force will buff character's damage by about 4-5% in endgame, balancing your abilities that don't need to be even casted will mean adding 2% permanent damage (and even then it might be stronger than minor force) 2% x9 skills = 18% damage. Adding hail to backbar would result in more damage buff. You have created a more complicated system that is now misleading the floor to use bad skill choices.

If there is anything I said which is wrong, please correct me.

Clarify some specifics for me, if you don't mind:

Direction 1 - Are you calling players who are using 8 DOT skills in 12 seconds the floor? Because I wouldn't describe them as the floor. This is the type of player who wouldn't need toggles... so I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Direction 2 - How will giving a crowd who struggles to build a "proper" rotation access to toggle skills that can passively help them make them any worse off than they already are? At least a toggle skill that sits there on the bar can contribute more than the skill that is slotted and not doing anything because the player struggles to utilize an efficient rotation. In your explanation scenario, if I understand it correctly, you are describing a player who has the option to use a toggle or not. Sure, go ahead and use hail instead -- that's terrific -- that means the player is capable of using a non-toggle. If the player is not, then they can use a toggle, practice with a simple rotation, get that down, and then work towards expanding their rotation. Again, I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Direction 1: was explanation about low APM players. APM= action per minute. Those people have lower than 50 APM 8 skill+ 2 bar swaps per 12 seconds= 50 APM which is a very, very low apm. Your whole argument was that your suggestion is to help low APM people, which is evidently by direction 1, not true.

Direction 2:
Okay, please tell me which point of the next you disagree with
1. they are struggling to build because they don't understand combat.
2. You are suggesting to complicate combat even more.
3. they will not magically reach a better build in a more complicated combat system.

Point n3 is a direct conclusion from looking at points 1+2. As I already said:

only way to make it easier for the "floor" is simplifying combat, or giving them more in-game tools to understand combat. You provide neither.

ccfeeling

Players will start to waive much more when they understand the ESO combat mechanics finally .

The cored problem is ZOS running 2 trash class mega servers .

APM performance directly proportional to the server response time .

Say for example , there is a huge APM difference between the USA players and australia players even they are running the same hardwares and connection speed .

ZOS try to distract the direction , that's funny .

GrumpyDuckling

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

If a low APM player isn't efficiently utilizing all 10 skills at their disposal

This part proves you have no idea what you are talking about. Amount of APM =/= amount of skills being in use. it takes the same APM to create a static rotation (3 dots on backbar, 1 short dot on front + spammable + execute), and a rotation of "8 passive skills" wall of elements backbar, and spammable front bar. Every 10 skills you will have 10 skills, 10 light attacks, 2 bar swaps. Same APM needed.

You asked me how it won't help floor. I already explained from two different directions, maybe not enough for you to understand. I will try to rearrange my words so it will go through.

Direction 1, low APM players, and what it really means:
Low APM players need to get the most out of the little amount of button presses they have. In other words, full dot rotations. If they fire 8 dot skills in 12 seconds, their APM is relatively lower, but the dmg won't be as bad. Another slot for innerlight + heal/shield and boom, 10 slots already. Low APM players with a build that tries to compromise for it, don't need your idea, and actually LOSE from it because they don't have the bar space. Therefore compare it to the higher end that uses less skills and more spammables (stamplars for example), you now get few more passive damage buffs, boom, ceiling up floor stays the same.

Direction 2, people that don't know how to build a proper rotation.
Those people have nothing to do with low APM. They are just not used to the game. Never tried to get used to a proper rotation. I assume this is the crowd you want to help. Sadly for you, this crowd is always inferior in building their characters to deal damage, and making the system more complicated will harm them the most.

Explanation: minor force will buff character's damage by about 4-5% in endgame, balancing your abilities that don't need to be even casted will mean adding 2% permanent damage (and even then it might be stronger than minor force) 2% x9 skills = 18% damage. Adding hail to backbar would result in more damage buff. You have created a more complicated system that is now misleading the floor to use bad skill choices.

If there is anything I said which is wrong, please correct me.

Clarify some specifics for me, if you don't mind:

Direction 1 - Are you calling players who are using 8 DOT skills in 12 seconds the floor? Because I wouldn't describe them as the floor. This is the type of player who wouldn't need toggles... so I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Direction 2 - How will giving a crowd who struggles to build a "proper" rotation access to toggle skills that can passively help them make them any worse off than they already are? At least a toggle skill that sits there on the bar can contribute more than the skill that is slotted and not doing anything because the player struggles to utilize an efficient rotation. In your explanation scenario, if I understand it correctly, you are describing a player who has the option to use a toggle or not. Sure, go ahead and use hail instead -- that's terrific -- that means the player is capable of using a non-toggle. If the player is not, then they can use a toggle, practice with a simple rotation, get that down, and then work towards expanding their rotation. Again, I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Direction 1: was explanation about low APM players. APM= action per minute. Those people have lower than 50 APM 8 skill+ 2 bar swaps per 12 seconds= 50 APM which is a very, very low apm. Your whole argument was that your suggestion is to help low APM people, which is evidently by direction 1, not true.

Direction 2:
Okay, please tell me which point of the next you disagree with
1. they are struggling to build because they don't understand combat.
2. You are suggesting to complicate combat even more.
3. they will not magically reach a better build in a more complicated combat system.

Point n3 is a direct conclusion from looking at points 1+2. As I already said:

only way to make it easier for the "floor" is simplifying combat, or giving them more in-game tools to understand combat. You provide neither.

A low APM player can still be effective -- the toggle suggestion in this post is targeted mainly at the lowest floor APM players, which I thought I made clear in the very first line of the thread:
"I believe I have the beginnings of a constructive way to lessen the gap between low APM (actions per minute) players and high APM players -- effectively raising the lowest of the floor, while keeping the ceiling the same."

It sounds like the example you are talking about is just exclusively anyone who you categorize as low APM players, but that's casting a pretty wide net with subjective margins. Maybe I should have been more clear about the parameters of what I was aiming for, but I thought I was pretty clear considering the very first line of the thread describes the intent ("lowest of the floor").

I think it simplifies combat when a player can toss some toggles on -- especially since they gain the benefit of having skills not go to waste if they struggle to maintain a rotation. So, I don't agree with your statement that it complicates combat even more, specifically for the lowest of the floor.

MincVinyl

Personally I do not think any game should have an opt out feature that bypasses actually playing the game. Instead I would rather see them push for more ways of teaching the lower skilled players how to learn mechanics. Most of what anyone learns in the game is from other players instead of having avenues from the game itself. For instance most new players do not even know what snares/roots/stuns are and how to counter them. Without having other players teach them for zos, these new players would never have known.

I find it hard to say learning to light attack and press a button every second is hard.

The game should not be balanced to work during poor server performance. Any balance changes should aim to reduce server load if anything. If moving more towards a direct damage meta versus dot/aoe helps solve the lag, then so be it.

The game should not be balanced around players far from the servers. The game would have to be made into turn based combat to remove the difference in reaction times. (It would probs solve the lag tho)

Chelo

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I believe I have the beginnings of a constructive way to lessen the gap between low APM (actions per minute) players and high APM players -- effectively raising the lowest of the floor, while keeping the ceiling the same.

The Idea: Simplify rotations for low APM (actions per minute) players by implementing optional toggles for select skills that will allow those skills to remain "on" permanently while slotted on one of your weapon bars. These toggle-able skills will remain active at all times, even through bar-swap. This will remove the need for players to press a button to gain benefits from the skill (thus simplifying their rotation). However, toggling a skill "on" also comes at the cost of the skill becoming [x]% less effective. The reason there is a slight reduction in efficiency for toggled skills is to keep the current state of skills/rotations for high-end content (the ceiling) mostly untouched, yet significantly raise the floor for low APM players by reducing total button presses (at a slight cost to skill efficiency) but still gaining some power/support for that shortened rotation.
Simple Explanation:

If a player is only capable of reliably using a 6-button rotation effectively, then often they are not getting much out of 4 skill slots that just sit there ineffectively/with low up-time on their skill bar. The idea is to allow the player to fill in those 4 spots with optional toggles to at least get some use out of those 4 previously low efficiency slots by filling them in with some buffs/utility that will remain on to enhance and make their 6-button rotation more effective. That should raise their floor.

How it Works: Select skills can be turned into toggles that will remain active as long as the skill remains slotted on one of your weapon bars. You can select a toggle-able skill and press (Ctrl on PC, or Right Thumbstick on console) to toggle the skill on/off.

Example: A skill like Lotus Flower (Warden) can be toggled on to remain active at all times, meaning a player does not have to press a button to activate the skill. If toggled "on," Lotus Flower remains active at all times (regardless of which bar it is on), but loses 2% critical off of it's base value, and offers 5% less healing.
Note: The numbers in this example are merely placeholders that reflect untested values.

Why Implement this Idea? To move in the direction of applying ZOS' vision to lessen the wide gap between high and low APM players. The intent is to raise the floor, but keep the ceiling the same.

From the Light/Heavy Attack PTS:

"Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP. While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb."

Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/517545/pts-patch-notes-testing-ideas-for-light-heavy-attacks-in-combat

Initial Class Skills Worth Considering for Toggle

Dragonknight

• Inferno
• Spiked Armor
• Dragon Blood
• Molten Weapons

Necromancer

• Bone Armor
• Skeletal Mage (toggle auto-recasts upon expiration)
• Spirit Mender (toggle auto-recasts upon expiration)

Nightblade

• Blur
• Mark Target
• Summon Shade (only the Dark Shade morph that moves)
• Siphoning Strikes

Sorcerer

• Unstable Clannfear
• Winged Twilight
• Lightning Form (Hurricane morph shrinks then regrows continuously)
• Surge

Templar

• Solar Flare (only the Solar Barrage Morph)
• Eclipse (only the Living Dark Morph)
• Rune Focus (perhaps some kind of alteration to cast on self?)

Warden

• Betty Netch
• Living Vines
• Lotus Flower
• Frost Cloak
• Arctic Wind

Potential Barriers and Balance Discussion:

• Determining which skills should get the toggle treatment likely needs specific standards. Most skills eligible for toggles would probably have to be cast-on-self/allies skills and buffs, and not environmentally-placed skills. For example, a cast-on-ground skill like Cleansing Ritual (Templar) would not be a toggle-able skill.
• Certain skills might need slight tweaks that don't change the function of the skill, but better allow them to operate as a toggle.
• Certain class and skill line passives may need a slight update to their activation conditions to ensure that they perform with toggles.
• Toggles would have to be monitored closely in PVP to see if they are notably affecting the ceiling. Battle Spirit could potentially be involved with toggle skills to some extent based on the reduction percentages of toggled skills.
• Some team-wide buff skills such as Molten Weapons and Frost Cloak need to be considered more closely (would the whole team get a % reduction to the buffs if the "caster" has the skill toggled "on?").
• Certain classes would have access to more toggle skills -- this would need to be examined further to determine if this is a significant balance issue.
• There would need to be balance of resource cost for toggles. Currently, it costs resources to activate most skills, and a permanent toggle would not fit into the current resource balance. See post #7 from @YandereGirlfriend for interesting suggestions of how to handle this.

*Post edited to add list of potential class skills worth considering.

Terrible idea... Next...

zvavi

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

If a low APM player isn't efficiently utilizing all 10 skills at their disposal

This part proves you have no idea what you are talking about. Amount of APM =/= amount of skills being in use. it takes the same APM to create a static rotation (3 dots on backbar, 1 short dot on front + spammable + execute), and a rotation of "8 passive skills" wall of elements backbar, and spammable front bar. Every 10 skills you will have 10 skills, 10 light attacks, 2 bar swaps. Same APM needed.

You asked me how it won't help floor. I already explained from two different directions, maybe not enough for you to understand. I will try to rearrange my words so it will go through.

Direction 1, low APM players, and what it really means:
Low APM players need to get the most out of the little amount of button presses they have. In other words, full dot rotations. If they fire 8 dot skills in 12 seconds, their APM is relatively lower, but the dmg won't be as bad. Another slot for innerlight + heal/shield and boom, 10 slots already. Low APM players with a build that tries to compromise for it, don't need your idea, and actually LOSE from it because they don't have the bar space. Therefore compare it to the higher end that uses less skills and more spammables (stamplars for example), you now get few more passive damage buffs, boom, ceiling up floor stays the same.

Direction 2, people that don't know how to build a proper rotation.
Those people have nothing to do with low APM. They are just not used to the game. Never tried to get used to a proper rotation. I assume this is the crowd you want to help. Sadly for you, this crowd is always inferior in building their characters to deal damage, and making the system more complicated will harm them the most.

Explanation: minor force will buff character's damage by about 4-5% in endgame, balancing your abilities that don't need to be even casted will mean adding 2% permanent damage (and even then it might be stronger than minor force) 2% x9 skills = 18% damage. Adding hail to backbar would result in more damage buff. You have created a more complicated system that is now misleading the floor to use bad skill choices.

If there is anything I said which is wrong, please correct me.

Clarify some specifics for me, if you don't mind:

Direction 1 - Are you calling players who are using 8 DOT skills in 12 seconds the floor? Because I wouldn't describe them as the floor. This is the type of player who wouldn't need toggles... so I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Direction 2 - How will giving a crowd who struggles to build a "proper" rotation access to toggle skills that can passively help them make them any worse off than they already are? At least a toggle skill that sits there on the bar can contribute more than the skill that is slotted and not doing anything because the player struggles to utilize an efficient rotation. In your explanation scenario, if I understand it correctly, you are describing a player who has the option to use a toggle or not. Sure, go ahead and use hail instead -- that's terrific -- that means the player is capable of using a non-toggle. If the player is not, then they can use a toggle, practice with a simple rotation, get that down, and then work towards expanding their rotation. Again, I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Direction 1: was explanation about low APM players. APM= action per minute. Those people have lower than 50 APM 8 skill+ 2 bar swaps per 12 seconds= 50 APM which is a very, very low apm. Your whole argument was that your suggestion is to help low APM people, which is evidently by direction 1, not true.

Direction 2:
Okay, please tell me which point of the next you disagree with
1. they are struggling to build because they don't understand combat.
2. You are suggesting to complicate combat even more.
3. they will not magically reach a better build in a more complicated combat system.

Point n3 is a direct conclusion from looking at points 1+2. As I already said:

only way to make it easier for the "floor" is simplifying combat, or giving them more in-game tools to understand combat. You provide neither.

A low APM player can still be effective -- the toggle suggestion in this post is targeted mainly at the lowest floor APM players, which I thought I made clear in the very first line of the thread:
"I believe I have the beginnings of a constructive way to lessen the gap between low APM (actions per minute) players and high APM players -- effectively raising the lowest of the floor, while keeping the ceiling the same."

It sounds like the example you are talking about is just exclusively anyone who you categorize as low APM players, but that's casting a pretty wide net with subjective margins. Maybe I should have been more clear about the parameters of what I was aiming for, but I thought I was pretty clear considering the very first line of the thread describes the intent ("lowest of the floor").

I think it simplifies combat when a player can toss some toggles on -- especially since they gain the benefit of having skills not go to waste if they struggle to maintain a rotation. So, I don't agree with your statement that it complicates combat even more, specifically for the lowest of the floor.

I was trying really hard to explain to you that you don't understand what low APM is. You still do not understand. Remember my example of 50 APM dot rotation? (8 skills 12 seconds) light attack spammers have higher APM of over 100. And that seems like the crowd you are trying to help. So stop using the term APM, because it is just wrong in your discussion, I mean sure, call it lowest of the floor, or whatever you want, but it is not low APM players you are trying to help.

I hope I at least managed to establish that your APM part of the argument is as inaccurate as it can get.

Now that I got this out of the way, we can go back to direction 2. Those that just don't understand combat enough. You still didn't answer my question of which of the points you don't agree, but from your answer I deducted that you have disagreed with n2:
"You are suggesting to complicate combat even more."
And say that "for those that don't understand the combat, additing more options to it will simplify combat."
[snip]

I understand your intentions are "just" but it is on the same problem of the light attack changes zos sent on the PTS a while ago (even though they were a much higher level of a f*** up), false conviction that something will help the floor while in reality it crushed the floor down (especially tanks and healers in the light attack changes).

[Edited to remove Baiting]