APM Discussion: Raising the Floor While Keeping the Ceiling (via Optional Toggles)

MindOfTheSwarm

You are basically taking a Path of Exile mechanic and putting it into this game. If resources were reserved, then it might work but this is ESO not Path of Exile. Mechanically, it would work but in terms of rotations and balance you would find that everyone would just opt to use this system all the time. The reason for this is that it would allow higher uptime of spammables so everyone would just end up using it. This would then mean that the purpose of your suggestion becomes obsolete and nothing would change from that perspective. There are other ways they could change how things work to help accommodate your concern. For Example, buffing sets like Deadly Strike and putting a Magicka version of the set could allow players to focus on DoT's at the expense of spammables to bring the styles closer in terms of DPS. Your suggestion would not amount to anything unfortunately.

MincVinyl

Again, unless you physically are disabled saying you can't light attack and press an ability once per second is just pure laziness. Even with Carpal tunnel I have been able to compete in pvp on a movement based very high apm stamsorc. I even knew a guy that used to play before the game started really going to *** with elsweyr, that played at a high level with only one hand on an mmo mouse because he was 67 years old and destroyed his keyboard hand in the navy.

GrumpyDuckling

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Mechanically, it would work but in terms of rotations and balance you would find that everyone would just opt to use this system all the time. The reason for this is that it would allow higher uptime of spammables so everyone would just end up using it.

The idea is to cut into the efficiency of the toggles just enough during balancing where the ceiling find it more advantageous to utilize no or very few toggles in their build.

The toggles are also operating with reduced power, so spammables would be hitting for less -- meaning more would be required to match the output of non-toggles and sustain could creep in as a factor.

caperon

This Khajiit thinks that other kities and not kitties are just as awful as those bulbs nasty humans grow from the ground and no amount of help will make them palatable.

Taloros

Interesting, but failure-prone idea. Easier solution: disallow animation cancelling (including light attack "weaving") or nerf light attack damage so much that it doesn't matter that much.

Joy_Division

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Also I doubt making it such that skills are less effective for players who are playing less effectively to begin is going to have the impact that you and ZOS would like.

The reason the skills are slightly less effective as toggles is to maintain the ceiling. But, the intent of the idea is to allow the players who are at the lowest of the floor to raise by giving them access to those toggles when they otherwise could not use those skills effectively in their rotation. For example:

If a player is only capable of reliably using a 6-button rotation effectively, then often they are not getting much out of 4 skill slots that just sit there ineffectively/with low up-time on their skill bar. The idea is to allow the player to fill in those 4 spots with optional toggles to at least get some use out of those 4 previously low efficiency slots by filling them in with some buffs/utility that will remain on to enhance and make their 6-button rotation more effective. That should raise their floor.

The issue is that you're only looking at this through ZoS's questionable concept of APM and are placing arbitrary barriers on what you deem to be players on the "floor." How is it that a player is only capable of using a 6 button rotation? Is that 7th skill really such a burden that they simply aren't capable of doing it? I've been playing RPGs since the 1980s and ESO is unique in that it only allows players to use a very small amount of their potential abilities. SSI's Gold Box Pool of Radiance series, Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, Dragon Age, etc., all of these provided players with way more than 6 abilities and yet the communities that played them somehow muddled through. That's not the limiting factor that you're assuming it to be.

ESO is already very forgiving in how many buttons they are asking players to press, that's not the root of the problem between the "floor" and the "ceiling." And your proposal would not necessarily make things better. The times when I do have legitimately a hard time keeping up a 6 button rotation is in competitive situations such as PvP or Maelstrom arena back when I had 150 CP because I was taking so much damage that I was more concerned about survival than executing a nice target dummy 10 button rotation. In these competitive situations, I absolutely need my skills to be a potent as possible for when I do use them and under your proposal they won't be. By having less effective players use less effective skills, that may help them achieve better results in non-competitive situations when that loss of skill potency won't matter, but in competitive situations, i.e., where these players are already struggling, your proposal will just make things worse.

The disparity between the "floor" and "ceiling" is due to many things, but probably the most egregious factor is the power creep in the game. The more powerful players are, the more powerful ZOS must make NPCs and bosses. It has come to the point where things are so powerful that a single mistake (or weak player) is going to get a player killed or wipe a group.

GrumpyDuckling

Joy_Division wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Also I doubt making it such that skills are less effective for players who are playing less effectively to begin is going to have the impact that you and ZOS would like.

The reason the skills are slightly less effective as toggles is to maintain the ceiling. But, the intent of the idea is to allow the players who are at the lowest of the floor to raise by giving them access to those toggles when they otherwise could not use those skills effectively in their rotation. For example:

If a player is only capable of reliably using a 6-button rotation effectively, then often they are not getting much out of 4 skill slots that just sit there ineffectively/with low up-time on their skill bar. The idea is to allow the player to fill in those 4 spots with optional toggles to at least get some use out of those 4 previously low efficiency slots by filling them in with some buffs/utility that will remain on to enhance and make their 6-button rotation more effective. That should raise their floor.

The times when I do have legitimately a hard time keeping up a 6 button rotation is in competitive situations such as PvP or Maelstrom arena back when I had 150 CP because I was taking so much damage that I was more concerned about survival than executing a nice target dummy 10 button rotation. In these competitive situations, I absolutely need my skills to be a potent as possible for when I do use them and under your proposal they won't be. By having less effective players use less effective skills, that may help them achieve better results in non-competitive situations when that loss of skill potency won't matter, but in competitive situations, i.e., where these players are already struggling, your proposal will just make things worse.

You talk about times where you legitimately have a hard time keeping a 6-button rotation -- that means you have 4 skill slots that you aren't using effectively. I don't understand why you're taking issue with those 4 slots not being as "potent as possible" when what I am proposing is to allow you to fill those 4 skill slots with toggles that will at least assist you while you maintain the 6-skill rotation that you already have a hard time keeping up anyway.

If you are struggling to maintain 6 skills, it's not like having 4 additional potent skills that aren't doing anything will help you much...

zvavi

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

If a low APM player isn't efficiently utilizing all 10 skills at their disposal

This part proves you have no idea what you are talking about. Amount of APM =/= amount of skills being in use. it takes the same APM to create a static rotation (3 dots on backbar, 1 short dot on front + spammable + execute), and a rotation of "8 passive skills" wall of elements backbar, and spammable front bar. Every 10 skills you will have 10 skills, 10 light attacks, 2 bar swaps. Same APM needed.

You asked me how it won't help floor. I already explained from two different directions, maybe not enough for you to understand. I will try to rearrange my words so it will go through.

Direction 1, low APM players, and what it really means:
Low APM players need to get the most out of the little amount of button presses they have. In other words, full dot rotations. If they fire 8 dot skills in 12 seconds, their APM is relatively lower, but the dmg won't be as bad. Another slot for innerlight + heal/shield and boom, 10 slots already. Low APM players with a build that tries to compromise for it, don't need your idea, and actually LOSE from it because they don't have the bar space. Therefore compare it to the higher end that uses less skills and more spammables (stamplars for example), you now get few more passive damage buffs, boom, ceiling up floor stays the same.

Direction 2, people that don't know how to build a proper rotation.
Those people have nothing to do with low APM. They are just not used to the game. Never tried to get used to a proper rotation. I assume this is the crowd you want to help. Sadly for you, this crowd is always inferior in building their characters to deal damage, and making the system more complicated will harm them the most.

Explanation: minor force will buff character's damage by about 4-5% in endgame, balancing your abilities that don't need to be even casted will mean adding 2% permanent damage (and even then it might be stronger than minor force) 2% x9 skills = 18% damage. Adding hail to backbar would result in more damage buff. You have created a more complicated system that is now misleading the floor to use bad skill choices.

If there is anything I said which is wrong, please correct me.

Clarify some specifics for me, if you don't mind:

Direction 1 - Are you calling players who are using 8 DOT skills in 12 seconds the floor? Because I wouldn't describe them as the floor. This is the type of player who wouldn't need toggles... so I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Direction 2 - How will giving a crowd who struggles to build a "proper" rotation access to toggle skills that can passively help them make them any worse off than they already are? At least a toggle skill that sits there on the bar can contribute more than the skill that is slotted and not doing anything because the player struggles to utilize an efficient rotation. In your explanation scenario, if I understand it correctly, you are describing a player who has the option to use a toggle or not. Sure, go ahead and use hail instead -- that's terrific -- that means the player is capable of using a non-toggle. If the player is not, then they can use a toggle, practice with a simple rotation, get that down, and then work towards expanding their rotation. Again, I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Direction 1: was explanation about low APM players. APM= action per minute. Those people have lower than 50 APM 8 skill+ 2 bar swaps per 12 seconds= 50 APM which is a very, very low apm. Your whole argument was that your suggestion is to help low APM people, which is evidently by direction 1, not true.

Direction 2:
Okay, please tell me which point of the next you disagree with
1. they are struggling to build because they don't understand combat.
2. You are suggesting to complicate combat even more.
3. they will not magically reach a better build in a more complicated combat system.

Point n3 is a direct conclusion from looking at points 1+2. As I already said:

only way to make it easier for the "floor" is simplifying combat, or giving them more in-game tools to understand combat. You provide neither.

A low APM player can still be effective -- the toggle suggestion in this post is targeted mainly at the lowest floor APM players, which I thought I made clear in the very first line of the thread:
"I believe I have the beginnings of a constructive way to lessen the gap between low APM (actions per minute) players and high APM players -- effectively raising the lowest of the floor, while keeping the ceiling the same."

It sounds like the example you are talking about is just exclusively anyone who you categorize as low APM players, but that's casting a pretty wide net with subjective margins. Maybe I should have been more clear about the parameters of what I was aiming for, but I thought I was pretty clear considering the very first line of the thread describes the intent ("lowest of the floor").

I think it simplifies combat when a player can toss some toggles on -- especially since they gain the benefit of having skills not go to waste if they struggle to maintain a rotation. So, I don't agree with your statement that it complicates combat even more, specifically for the lowest of the floor.

And say that "for those that don't understand the combat, additing more options to it will simplify combat."
Please read this line few times. Out loud. Do you see how silly it sounds?

You just created a fake quote that I never said, and then called your own fake quote silly.

I did say that it is something I deducted, because you never gave a clear answer, therefore since it seems I was mistaken (apologies) I will ask the question again.

Okay, please tell me which point of the next you disagree with
1. they are struggling to build because they don't understand combat.
2. You are suggesting to complicate combat even more.
3. they will not magically reach a better build in a more complicated combat system.

It would be great if you actually have a conversation answering the points I provide (including your point of view on low APM players, you seem to use the term a lot, but where you use it is not what the term really means, and you never provided a clear answer to your definition of it.)

GrumpyDuckling

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

If a low APM player isn't efficiently utilizing all 10 skills at their disposal

This part proves you have no idea what you are talking about. Amount of APM =/= amount of skills being in use. it takes the same APM to create a static rotation (3 dots on backbar, 1 short dot on front + spammable + execute), and a rotation of "8 passive skills" wall of elements backbar, and spammable front bar. Every 10 skills you will have 10 skills, 10 light attacks, 2 bar swaps. Same APM needed.

You asked me how it won't help floor. I already explained from two different directions, maybe not enough for you to understand. I will try to rearrange my words so it will go through.

Direction 1, low APM players, and what it really means:
Low APM players need to get the most out of the little amount of button presses they have. In other words, full dot rotations. If they fire 8 dot skills in 12 seconds, their APM is relatively lower, but the dmg won't be as bad. Another slot for innerlight + heal/shield and boom, 10 slots already. Low APM players with a build that tries to compromise for it, don't need your idea, and actually LOSE from it because they don't have the bar space. Therefore compare it to the higher end that uses less skills and more spammables (stamplars for example), you now get few more passive damage buffs, boom, ceiling up floor stays the same.

Direction 2, people that don't know how to build a proper rotation.
Those people have nothing to do with low APM. They are just not used to the game. Never tried to get used to a proper rotation. I assume this is the crowd you want to help. Sadly for you, this crowd is always inferior in building their characters to deal damage, and making the system more complicated will harm them the most.

Explanation: minor force will buff character's damage by about 4-5% in endgame, balancing your abilities that don't need to be even casted will mean adding 2% permanent damage (and even then it might be stronger than minor force) 2% x9 skills = 18% damage. Adding hail to backbar would result in more damage buff. You have created a more complicated system that is now misleading the floor to use bad skill choices.

If there is anything I said which is wrong, please correct me.

Clarify some specifics for me, if you don't mind:

Direction 1 - Are you calling players who are using 8 DOT skills in 12 seconds the floor? Because I wouldn't describe them as the floor. This is the type of player who wouldn't need toggles... so I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Direction 2 - How will giving a crowd who struggles to build a "proper" rotation access to toggle skills that can passively help them make them any worse off than they already are? At least a toggle skill that sits there on the bar can contribute more than the skill that is slotted and not doing anything because the player struggles to utilize an efficient rotation. In your explanation scenario, if I understand it correctly, you are describing a player who has the option to use a toggle or not. Sure, go ahead and use hail instead -- that's terrific -- that means the player is capable of using a non-toggle. If the player is not, then they can use a toggle, practice with a simple rotation, get that down, and then work towards expanding their rotation. Again, I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Direction 1: was explanation about low APM players. APM= action per minute. Those people have lower than 50 APM 8 skill+ 2 bar swaps per 12 seconds= 50 APM which is a very, very low apm. Your whole argument was that your suggestion is to help low APM people, which is evidently by direction 1, not true.

Direction 2:
Okay, please tell me which point of the next you disagree with
1. they are struggling to build because they don't understand combat.
2. You are suggesting to complicate combat even more.
3. they will not magically reach a better build in a more complicated combat system.

Point n3 is a direct conclusion from looking at points 1+2. As I already said:

only way to make it easier for the "floor" is simplifying combat, or giving them more in-game tools to understand combat. You provide neither.

A low APM player can still be effective -- the toggle suggestion in this post is targeted mainly at the lowest floor APM players, which I thought I made clear in the very first line of the thread:
"I believe I have the beginnings of a constructive way to lessen the gap between low APM (actions per minute) players and high APM players -- effectively raising the lowest of the floor, while keeping the ceiling the same."

It sounds like the example you are talking about is just exclusively anyone who you categorize as low APM players, but that's casting a pretty wide net with subjective margins. Maybe I should have been more clear about the parameters of what I was aiming for, but I thought I was pretty clear considering the very first line of the thread describes the intent ("lowest of the floor").

I think it simplifies combat when a player can toss some toggles on -- especially since they gain the benefit of having skills not go to waste if they struggle to maintain a rotation. So, I don't agree with your statement that it complicates combat even more, specifically for the lowest of the floor.

And say that "for those that don't understand the combat, additing more options to it will simplify combat."
Please read this line few times. Out loud. Do you see how silly it sounds?

You just created a fake quote that I never said, and then called your own fake quote silly.

I did say that it is something I deducted, because you never gave a clear answer, therefore since it seems I was mistaken (apologies) I will ask the question again.

Okay, please tell me which point of the next you disagree with
1. they are struggling to build because they don't understand combat.
2. You are suggesting to complicate combat even more.
3. they will not magically reach a better build in a more complicated combat system.

It would be great if you actually have a conversation answering the points I provide (including your point of view on low APM players, you seem to use the term a lot, but where you use it is not what the term really means, and you never provided a clear answer to your definition of it.)

I think the first post of the thread gives a pretty clear indication of the context in which I am discussing low APM players (the ones who are not able to reliably perform enough actions per minute with their skills to be using them efficiently). See the detail that I offer in the first post:

If a player is only capable of reliably using a 6-button rotation effectively, then often they are not getting much out of 4 skill slots that just sit there ineffectively/with low up-time on their skill bar. The idea is to allow the player to fill in those 4 spots with optional toggles to at least get some use out of those 4 previously low efficiency slots by filling them in with some buffs/utility that will remain on to enhance and make their 6-button rotation more effective. That should raise their floor.

I have not engaged with your list of 3 questions because they are not related to this discussion. I will explain why:
1. Understanding combat is an entirely different discussion. Feel free to start your own thread on that issue if you would like.
2. I don't think that I am "complicating" combat. One of the goals behind the idea is that combat stays basically the same, and for low APM players who are not making the most out of their skills, they can opt into a toggle to get some production out of those previously low impact/wasted skill slots.
3. This thread is not about "magically" getting players to reach a better build. Again, feel free to start your own thread if that is what you want to discuss.

You are trying to get me into discussions that certainly have their merit in attempts to raise the floor, but that is not the focus here. The very title of the thread states (via optional toggles). So, when you make up a fake quote and write statements asking for a rigid agree/disagree response about topics this thread isn't about, there isn't much for me to contribute with.

Fawn4287

Next people will be asking for automatic walk out of AOEs and a follow feature like rupescape lol, at this rate some people ay as well just watch a stream since they want so little user input in to the game

Wuuffyy

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Here is an incomplete list of problems with your idea:
1) You're adding a hugely complex new mechanic to the game. Basically, every skill with this toggle option will have additional morphs that need to be balanced.
2) What's stopping high APM players from slotting the toggle versions of skills to free up GCDs in their rotation for other things?
3) The reduced power of the toggle-able version means that anyone using it as you're intending will continue to be at a significant disadvantage.
4) You're not addressing the real problem, which is light attack weaving, and the fact that it's both highly effective and very timing/skill sensitive.

Your going to carpet bomb LAs then for everyone and then find the next thing to carpet bomb when it’s not solved? It’s far more complex than Light attacks. Not to mention, a skilled player should always do significantly better than a person not even trying.

thorwyn

So basically you are suggesting to provide players with some kind of auto-pilot that makes it easier for them to increase their DPS and overall effectiveness and allows them to play certain content that they would have been struggling with otherwise. The logical question here is: what happens if they have played said content and want to advance to the next step, i.e. the content that can not be beat by using the auto-pilot? As long as we assume that the articifial help is not designed to beat every content in the game (which would be a bad idea anyways) your suggestion would just shift the barrier a few notches to the side. Players are bound to hit the invisible wall where they have to pick up the gauntlet and learn how to play their class properly and without help.

idk

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't think the concept of APM is a very useful one to begin with, if anything I'd bet what's more frustrating to players is when they have the similar APMs as their favorite youtuber yet are still have 10-15K lower DPS.

Also I doubt making it such that skills are less effective for players who are playing less effectively to begin is going to have the impact that you and ZOS would like.

I agree with both points. In one of my posts, I believe I noted that the lesser skilled player would still perform poorly because they are not very smooth with the delivery of their rotation. It is the case in pretty much every MMORPG. The top players are very good at delivering their rotation, skill after skill, while those that have lower DPS struggle with such things.


Automating some buffs so they do not have to worry about it does not change the fact some players are not as efficient delivering skills and maneuvering through mechanics of a fight.

idk

MincVinyl wrote: »

Personally I do not think any game should have an opt out feature that bypasses actually playing the game.

Instead I would rather see them push for more ways of teaching the lower skilled players how to learn mechanics. Most of what anyone learns in the game is from other players instead of having avenues from the game itself. For instance most new players do not even know what snares/roots/stuns are and how to counter them. Without having other players teach them for zos, these new players would never have known.

I find it hard to say learning to light attack and press a button every second is hard.

The game should not be balanced to work during poor server performance. Any balance changes should aim to reduce server load if anything. If moving more towards a direct damage meta versus dot/aoe helps solve the lag, then so be it.

The game should not be balanced around players far from the servers. The game would have to be made into turn based combat to remove the difference in reaction times. (It would probs solve the lag tho

)

This is essentially what I started with. The idea, in part, is the game playing itself. Even if it is any skill with a limited duration like a DoT or merely just buffs, it is still the game playing part of the game for the player.
.
I also agree with what I hid in the spoiler, that I would rather see players improve instead of giving them crutches. I lead a casual group early in the game. People who just enjoyed playing the game, seeing the storylines and putzing through the game. When we started raiding we made suggestions, but not requirements. Most took the suggestions and ran with it. In the end we were making leaderboard trial runs and they were surprised at how much they were getting out of the game from making some small changes here and there with how they fought.

4 became serious raiders including two became top raiders on the server back when they played. Teach a person to fish is always better than giving the a McFish sandwich.

FrancisCrawford

I don't think the problem is long-lasting buffs. I think it's more that some of us might use only 40 gcds per minute and only manage to weave light attacks through half of those.

At least, that's what my parses suggest. If I were really using all my gcds, I'd likely also be using a lot more magicka or stamina than Combat Metrics says I do.

zvavi

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

If a low APM player isn't efficiently utilizing all 10 skills at their disposal

This part proves you have no idea what you are talking about. Amount of APM =/= amount of skills being in use. it takes the same APM to create a static rotation (3 dots on backbar, 1 short dot on front + spammable + execute), and a rotation of "8 passive skills" wall of elements backbar, and spammable front bar. Every 10 skills you will have 10 skills, 10 light attacks, 2 bar swaps. Same APM needed.

You asked me how it won't help floor. I already explained from two different directions, maybe not enough for you to understand. I will try to rearrange my words so it will go through.

Direction 1, low APM players, and what it really means:
Low APM players need to get the most out of the little amount of button presses they have. In other words, full dot rotations. If they fire 8 dot skills in 12 seconds, their APM is relatively lower, but the dmg won't be as bad. Another slot for innerlight + heal/shield and boom, 10 slots already. Low APM players with a build that tries to compromise for it, don't need your idea, and actually LOSE from it because they don't have the bar space. Therefore compare it to the higher end that uses less skills and more spammables (stamplars for example), you now get few more passive damage buffs, boom, ceiling up floor stays the same.

Direction 2, people that don't know how to build a proper rotation.
Those people have nothing to do with low APM. They are just not used to the game. Never tried to get used to a proper rotation. I assume this is the crowd you want to help. Sadly for you, this crowd is always inferior in building their characters to deal damage, and making the system more complicated will harm them the most.

Explanation: minor force will buff character's damage by about 4-5% in endgame, balancing your abilities that don't need to be even casted will mean adding 2% permanent damage (and even then it might be stronger than minor force) 2% x9 skills = 18% damage. Adding hail to backbar would result in more damage buff. You have created a more complicated system that is now misleading the floor to use bad skill choices.

If there is anything I said which is wrong, please correct me.

Clarify some specifics for me, if you don't mind:

Direction 1 - Are you calling players who are using 8 DOT skills in 12 seconds the floor? Because I wouldn't describe them as the floor. This is the type of player who wouldn't need toggles... so I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Direction 2 - How will giving a crowd who struggles to build a "proper" rotation access to toggle skills that can passively help them make them any worse off than they already are? At least a toggle skill that sits there on the bar can contribute more than the skill that is slotted and not doing anything because the player struggles to utilize an efficient rotation. In your explanation scenario, if I understand it correctly, you are describing a player who has the option to use a toggle or not. Sure, go ahead and use hail instead -- that's terrific -- that means the player is capable of using a non-toggle. If the player is not, then they can use a toggle, practice with a simple rotation, get that down, and then work towards expanding their rotation. Again, I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Direction 1: was explanation about low APM players. APM= action per minute. Those people have lower than 50 APM 8 skill+ 2 bar swaps per 12 seconds= 50 APM which is a very, very low apm. Your whole argument was that your suggestion is to help low APM people, which is evidently by direction 1, not true.

Direction 2:
Okay, please tell me which point of the next you disagree with
1. they are struggling to build because they don't understand combat.
2. You are suggesting to complicate combat even more.
3. they will not magically reach a better build in a more complicated combat system.

Point n3 is a direct conclusion from looking at points 1+2. As I already said:

only way to make it easier for the "floor" is simplifying combat, or giving them more in-game tools to understand combat. You provide neither.

A low APM player can still be effective -- the toggle suggestion in this post is targeted mainly at the lowest floor APM players, which I thought I made clear in the very first line of the thread:
"I believe I have the beginnings of a constructive way to lessen the gap between low APM (actions per minute) players and high APM players -- effectively raising the lowest of the floor, while keeping the ceiling the same."

It sounds like the example you are talking about is just exclusively anyone who you categorize as low APM players, but that's casting a pretty wide net with subjective margins. Maybe I should have been more clear about the parameters of what I was aiming for, but I thought I was pretty clear considering the very first line of the thread describes the intent ("lowest of the floor").

I think it simplifies combat when a player can toss some toggles on -- especially since they gain the benefit of having skills not go to waste if they struggle to maintain a rotation. So, I don't agree with your statement that it complicates combat even more, specifically for the lowest of the floor.

And say that "for those that don't understand the combat, additing more options to it will simplify combat."
Please read this line few times. Out loud. Do you see how silly it sounds?

You just created a fake quote that I never said, and then called your own fake quote silly.

I did say that it is something I deducted, because you never gave a clear answer, therefore since it seems I was mistaken (apologies) I will ask the question again.

Okay, please tell me which point of the next you disagree with
1. they are struggling to build because they don't understand combat.
2. You are suggesting to complicate combat even more.
3. they will not magically reach a better build in a more complicated combat system.

It would be great if you actually have a conversation answering the points I provide (including your point of view on low APM players, you seem to use the term a lot, but where you use it is not what the term really means, and you never provided a clear answer to your definition of it.)

I think the first post of the thread gives a pretty clear indication of the context in which I am discussing low APM players (the ones who are not able to reliably perform enough actions per minute with their skills to be using them efficiently). See the detail that I offer in the first post:

If a player is only capable of reliably using a 6-button rotation effectively, then often they are not getting much out of 4 skill slots that just sit there ineffectively/with low up-time on their skill bar. The idea is to allow the player to fill in those 4 spots with optional toggles to at least get some use out of those 4 previously low efficiency slots by filling them in with some buffs/utility that will remain on to enhance and make their 6-button rotation more effective. That should raise their floor.

I have not engaged with your list of 3 questions because they are not related to this discussion. I will explain why:
1. Understanding combat is an entirely different discussion. Feel free to start your own thread on that issue if you would like.
2. I don't think that I am "complicating" combat. One of the goals behind the idea is that combat stays basically the same, and for low APM players who are not making the most out of their skills, they can opt into a toggle to get some production out of those previously low impact/wasted skill slots.
3. This thread is not about "magically" getting players to reach a better build. Again, feel free to start your own thread if that is what you want to discuss.

You are trying to get me into discussions that certainly have their merit in attempts to raise the floor, but that is not the focus here. The very title of the thread states (via optional toggles). So, when you make up a fake quote and write statements asking for a rigid agree/disagree response about topics this thread isn't about, there isn't much for me to contribute with.

Sorc: pets, bound aegis, any sorc skill
NB: syphoning skills, assassination skills
Dk: molten whip
Templar: radiant aura
Necro: siphoning
Warden: bird of prey, animal companion skills
Psijic order: (shield on block)
Mage guild: mage light + passives
Fighter's guild: passives + camo hunter
Werewolf: ultimate

Here you go, list of skills you only need to slot to gain bonuses that affect combat for those who can only use effectively 6 skills in rotation.

Firstmep

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I believe I have the beginnings of a constructive way to lessen the gap between low APM (actions per minute) players and high APM players -- effectively raising the lowest of the floor, while keeping the ceiling the same.

The Idea: Simplify rotations for low APM (actions per minute) players by implementing optional toggles for select skills that will allow those skills to remain "on" permanently while slotted on one of your weapon bars. These toggle-able skills will remain active at all times, even through bar-swap. This will remove the need for players to press a button to gain benefits from the skill (thus simplifying their rotation). However, toggling a skill "on" also comes at the cost of the skill becoming [x]% less effective. The reason there is a slight reduction in efficiency for toggled skills is to keep the current state of skills/rotations for high-end content (the ceiling) mostly untouched, yet significantly raise the floor for low APM players by reducing total button presses (at a slight cost to skill efficiency) but still gaining some power/support for that shortened rotation.
Simple Explanation:

If a player is only capable of reliably using a 6-button rotation effectively, then often they are not getting much out of 4 skill slots that just sit there ineffectively/with low up-time on their skill bar. The idea is to allow the player to fill in those 4 spots with optional toggles to at least get some use out of those 4 previously low efficiency slots by filling them in with some buffs/utility that will remain on to enhance and make their 6-button rotation more effective. That should raise their floor.

How it Works: Select skills can be turned into toggles that will remain active as long as the skill remains slotted on one of your weapon bars. You can select a toggle-able skill and press (Ctrl on PC, or Right Thumbstick on console) to toggle the skill on/off.

Example: A skill like Lotus Flower (Warden) can be toggled on to remain active at all times, meaning a player does not have to press a button to activate the skill. If toggled "on," Lotus Flower remains active at all times (regardless of which bar it is on), but loses 2% critical off of it's base value, and offers 5% less healing.
Note: The numbers in this example are merely placeholders that reflect untested values.

Why Implement this Idea? To move in the direction of applying ZOS' vision to lessen the wide gap between high and low APM players. The intent is to raise the floor, but keep the ceiling the same.

From the Light/Heavy Attack PTS:

"Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP. While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb."

Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/517545/pts-patch-notes-testing-ideas-for-light-heavy-attacks-in-combat

Initial Class Skills Worth Considering for Toggle

Dragonknight

• Inferno
• Spiked Armor
• Dragon Blood
• Molten Weapons

Necromancer

• Bone Armor
• Skeletal Mage (toggle auto-recasts upon expiration)
• Spirit Mender (toggle auto-recasts upon expiration)

Nightblade

• Blur
• Mark Target
• Summon Shade (only the Dark Shade morph that moves)
• Siphoning Strikes

Sorcerer

• Unstable Clannfear
• Winged Twilight
• Lightning Form (Hurricane morph shrinks then regrows continuously)
• Surge

Templar

• Solar Flare (only the Solar Barrage Morph)
• Eclipse (only the Living Dark Morph)
• Rune Focus (perhaps some kind of alteration to cast on self?)

Warden

• Betty Netch
• Living Vines
• Lotus Flower
• Frost Cloak
• Arctic Wind

Potential Barriers and Balance Discussion:

• Determining which skills should get the toggle treatment likely needs specific standards. Most skills eligible for toggles would probably have to be cast-on-self/allies skills and buffs, and not environmentally-placed skills. For example, a cast-on-ground skill like Cleansing Ritual (Templar) would not be a toggle-able skill.
• Certain skills might need slight tweaks that don't change the function of the skill, but better allow them to operate as a toggle.
• Certain class and skill line passives may need a slight update to their activation conditions to ensure that they perform with toggles.
• Toggles would have to be monitored closely in PVP to see if they are notably affecting the ceiling. Battle Spirit could potentially be involved with toggle skills to some extent based on the reduction percentages of toggled skills.
• Some team-wide buff skills such as Molten Weapons and Frost Cloak need to be considered more closely (would the whole team get a % reduction to the buffs if the "caster" has the skill toggled "on?").
• Certain classes would have access to more toggle skills -- this would need to be examined further to determine if this is a significant balance issue.
• There would need to be balance of resource cost for toggles. Currently, it costs resources to activate most skills, and a permanent toggle would not fit into the current resource balance. See post #7 from @YandereGirlfriend for interesting suggestions of how to handle this.

*Post edited to add list of potential class skills worth considering.

Can we stop pretending that ESO is mostly played by 60yr old grandpas, or 12yr old with the attention span of a 5yr old?
Eso needs to be better at teaching players the existing systems of this game, not dumbing it further down to the lowest denominator.

Joy_Division

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Also I doubt making it such that skills are less effective for players who are playing less effectively to begin is going to have the impact that you and ZOS would like.

The reason the skills are slightly less effective as toggles is to maintain the ceiling. But, the intent of the idea is to allow the players who are at the lowest of the floor to raise by giving them access to those toggles when they otherwise could not use those skills effectively in their rotation. For example:

If a player is only capable of reliably using a 6-button rotation effectively, then often they are not getting much out of 4 skill slots that just sit there ineffectively/with low up-time on their skill bar. The idea is to allow the player to fill in those 4 spots with optional toggles to at least get some use out of those 4 previously low efficiency slots by filling them in with some buffs/utility that will remain on to enhance and make their 6-button rotation more effective. That should raise their floor.

The times when I do have legitimately a hard time keeping up a 6 button rotation is in competitive situations such as PvP or Maelstrom arena back when I had 150 CP because I was taking so much damage that I was more concerned about survival than executing a nice target dummy 10 button rotation. In these competitive situations, I absolutely need my skills to be a potent as possible for when I do use them and under your proposal they won't be. By having less effective players use less effective skills, that may help them achieve better results in non-competitive situations when that loss of skill potency won't matter, but in competitive situations, i.e., where these players are already struggling, your proposal will just make things worse.

You talk about times where you legitimately have a hard time keeping a 6-button rotation -- that means you have 4 skill slots that you aren't using effectively. I don't understand why you're taking issue with those 4 slots not being as "potent as possible" when what I am proposing is to allow you to fill those 4 skill slots with toggles that will at least assist you while you maintain the 6-skill rotation that you already have a hard time keeping up anyway.

If you are struggling to maintain 6 skills, it's not like having 4 additional potent skills that aren't doing anything will help you much...

Because I am not ignoring the other 4 buttons. It's that I am either taking damage or forced to move that I am using the other 6 buttons more often to survive. When I have a moment to use the other 4, I don't want them diminished because I am in a competitive situation.

BXR_Lonestar

I get where you are going with this, but I don't think it is going to be a great solution. As one of the other commenters observed, it sounds like the game will just basically be playing itself at that point.

The way I see it, the thing that causes the gap between high APM players and low APM players is a product of the combat system itself, and if you want to decrease the gap between the two, your going to have to NORMALIZE combat so that high APM doesn't give you a combat advantage. I.E., you have to get rid of animation cancelling. And every time you bring it up, there is a specific crowd that gets upset because then they won't feel so elite.

However, if Zos was so inclined to get rid of animation cancelling, combat between players will be normalized, and the difference in damage would be more about build (gear sets, racial bonuses, champion point allocation, etc.) which makes the gap much easier to control, and it makes balancing the game much easier overall.

But I don't think Zos is inclined to get rid of animation cancelling (or maybe they are unable to do so), and so the gap is what it is. What *might* help the gap is if they had the option to toggle a cooldown lock on/off which will make it so you can't recast the same skill if it has a duration - example. Wall of elements has a 10 second duration, so you can only cast once, and then the skill is unusable for 10 seconds. This would suck in dynamic/moving encounters, but it also would help newer players learn timing of abilities and to learn the combat system, as they'll have to mix in a certain amount of duration abilities with spammables and mix in light/heavy attacks in order to make due.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I don't downright hate the idea, but it would require a lot of balancing.

People really seem to be trashing the APM concept and I dont quite see why. APM is a real issue. A high end DPS rotation require APMs of anywhere from 120 to 240 (2-4/second), and that is just standing still. 2 being a standard light weave and 4 being the extreme of something like Swap>LA>Skill>Bash, which needs to be done in a single GCD. And its just not the frequency of those actions, its the accuracy as well. Do those same 4 actions out of order slightly and you might not get the desired result.

Some people will never be able to perform 3-4 actions per second, so that does absolutely impact the floor.

That said, it is certainly not the only factor. 3-4 actions per second is very doable, if its the same actions (like say if i just bash weave a spammable). Juggling the DOTs and making decisions in real time about what skill to cast next, especially as multiple things are expiring, is the other side of the coin that really doesnt have much to do with APM, its about real time decision making. This also effects things like positioning, blocking, dodging, etc (things that keep you alive). That is a much harder thing to quantify and is much more of a sliding scale.

The biggest issue is of course the willingness to work on your rotation, in other words practice. Some players will never "practice" a video game. If all you do is run dungeons and trials, yeah, you will certainly improve, but not as much as if you devote some amount of time to mastering your rotation (target dummy), no matter how simple or complicated. A polished static rotation will outperform a sloppy dynamic rotation, even though the later has the higher ceiling.

Wuuffyy

People on this thread low key trying to turn this into Wow or Smite with auto-attacks and 40 sec CD. They refuse to accept the fact that IT IS DIFFERENT.

zvavi

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Swap>LA>Skill>Bash

Since 80% bash damage nerf it ain't that worth it...

JinMori

Why do people care so much about this raise the floor thing? Honestly, there really isn't a lot you can do, aside from purposefully moving players towards certain setups by locking what people can do with their builds, which i would not approve of since i like the freedom that this game gives you when building, even though it comes with the "drawback" that it makes player more varied on how bad or good they can get, which i do not even think it's a problem.

But if you really wanna approach this thing without ruining the game, all you can do is give optional training to people if they wanna get better, and teach them at least the basics.

Honestly, of any mmo i have tried eso has the worst average player.

In wow for example, the average player is way superior for many reasons, 1 the game is more intuitive on which abilities to use, and you do not have a choice, you play pally, you get pally abilities and only those, also there is a lot more info out there especially in game.

Not saying that one system is necessarily to the other, but i do like the fact that eso gives you a lot of freedom in what you can choose, and it's part of what stands out in this game, but because of it you can make some really whack builds, like complete garbage, not even exaggerating, in wow, gear increases stats and that's about it, and you do not choose your abilities, although you can still chose which abilities you use in your rotation, but they are usually very intuitive on what you should use.

So the "solution" there is none, you just gotta make people more aware about what works and what doesn't, and if you still wanna do some rp really bad build, that's your choice, and good, but you do not get to then pretend that people should carry you, and call good players elitists and toxic, because at the end of the day you still require some modicum of performance/skill to complete certain content, and if you do not cut it, you do not, that's just reality.

MincVinyl

After 6 years it is hard to wrap my head around why people still find it hard to press light attack and one ability every second. It isnt that hard, I mean we are literally talking about 2 button presses a second controlled by two different fingers.

Light> ability........Light>ability......Light>ability........

If you can't take an hour or two to make a rotation, or even just look up prewritten up rotations by other players for your setup that is just pure laziness.

---

@JinMori I would agree that eso has a very terrible average playerbase. It is mostly from zos over the years trying to add flashy new stuff that makes it impossible for newer players to know what is going on in combat.

Another problem that some streamteam and zos employees have talked about recently is how eso does not have any direct "tutorial" for the somewhat hidden mechanics in the game. Unless a newer player happens to meet someone who knows the random secrets and mechanics of the game they are near hopeless to figure some things out on their own.

For example most newer players don't know how important cc break is in pvp, or the fact that they can rebind it. It doesn't help that it is labeled "interupt" aswell. Even once they know what it is, zos has pushed for so many poorly designed mechanics like the new offbalance. Before, almost any player at any level knew what it meant to just face tank a dizzy swing. The simple counter that was intuitive was to block or roll it to avoid the damage and the stun after 4 possible average human reaction times to an animation that was easily telegraphed. Now with the new offbalance, there is no clear counterplay available, and at one point or another your character is just going to slump over without any clear animation as to what hit you. How is a new player who can barely tell what is going on in the game supposed to understand what is going in that scenario and learn from it.

There are many other examples of this where for people that have been in the game for 6 years just know by now, but some things are just so hidden or counter intuitive for the learning process that hinders newer players.

---

TLDR: Zos artificially wanting to dumb down the game is not the answer at all, but a blanket way of thinking. The potential playerbase is smarter than they think, but zos takes every chance they get to over complicate simple mechanics of the game.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

zvavi wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Swap>LA>Skill>Bash

Since 80% bash damage nerf it ain't that worth it...

Just an example of a situation that would require 4 actions per second. There are still reasons to bash cancel in a rotation from time to time. (need to interupt, Maarselok, etc).

But yes. Bash cancelling purely for added DPS, is almost certainly not worth it anymore, and TBH I am glad. I never did much it anyways outside of a dummy or a very static execute phase on a boss. It certainly contributed to the skill gap everyone is so worried about, so I do think it was a reasonable nerf.