Vampire players really should get access to the unique bat-swarm gap closer NPCs get

Noxavian

Change my mind. This uniquely animated, beautifully designed ability should be given to the players. The sound effects and animation it plays during the wind up and casting is what A LOT of us were wanting from the rework. (Turning into a swarm of bats). The way the skill animates is you disperse into a swarm of bats over a short cast-time then launch forward. It is unclear whether or not it is targeted or can just be cast in general, but either way this skill....is and looks great.

I originally wasn't going to make anymore threads about the rework, but after seeing this skill in game for myself, I want it more than literally any other skill in the game.

And to think, this is just a basic vampire skill. For those that say it wouldn't fit in our bloodline, keep in mind Lamae's bloodline has a direct affinity to bats in lore. So literally anything involving bats is fair game.

This skill would be utterly amazing and fix the main issue the vampire rework has when it comes to skill design is that there is no gap closer or way to stay on your opponent directly tied into the skill line despite having a melee-focused spammable.

Vevvev

Either that or the very interesting Bat AOE skill the NPCs get. Imagine having access to an AOE that you give a target and it'll chase after that target and deal damage ((And maybe even snare)) anything that gets inside its effect. I can imagine it being useful against stationary targets and forcing the more maneuverable foes to stay on their feet lest they get damaged by the swarm. Would make it a very unique skill tailored to the vampire play style and give players like myself that missed bat swarm something cool to use.

Would also give us another damage dealing option on top of Eviscerate so you're not spamming the same thing over and over again.

Noxavian

Vevvev wrote: »

Either that or the very interesting Bat AOE skill the NPCs get. Imagine having access to an AOE that you give a target and it'll chase after that target and deal damage ((And maybe even snare)) anything that gets inside its effect. I can imagine it being useful against stationary targets and forcing the more maneuverable foes to stay on their feet lest they get damaged by the swarm. Would make it a very unique skill tailored to the vampire play style and give players like myself that missed bat swarm something cool to use.

Would also give us another damage dealing option on top of Eviscerate so you're not spamming the same thing over and over again.

Honestly I'd take this too! Ideally both could be a part of the same skill, just different morphs?

Getting one or the other would be fine though.

lillybit

I'm guessing we didn't get it because it's too graphically intensive. It's OK when it's just the odd isolated npc using it, but a whole zerg with it would probably be too much for the hamsters to cope with!

Totally agree tho, when I started seeing this attack I was hoping we'd get it too

Noxavian

lillybit wrote: »

I'm guessing we didn't get it because it's too graphically intensive. It's OK when it's just the odd isolated npc using it, but a whole zerg with it would probably be too much for the hamsters to cope with!

Totally agree tho, when I started seeing this attack I was hoping we'd get it too

I don't think it is that graphically intense when compared to other abilities!

But who knows with the hamsters on zos's server.

Would love for them to someway implement it.

Vevvev

lillybit wrote: »

I'm guessing we didn't get it because it's too graphically intensive. It's OK when it's just the odd isolated npc using it, but a whole zerg with it would probably be too much for the hamsters to cope with!

Server strength isn't effected by the graphical effects of an ability, its the rules its having to track. Like with an AOE its making checks to see if anyone is inside of it and to do the damage calculations to all the characters effected. This is probably why when you get a ball group all using Proximity Detonation and other AOEs server performance just tanks.

XomRhoK

Who don't saw bat-swarm gap closer vampire NPCs have, look video below at 2:07.


In Greymoor intro cutscene (at 1:18) vampires have even better gap closer, in my opinion Current in game vampire NPC gap closer have bat effect only at the beginning of skill animation and a little bit at the end, it's almost unnoticeable, if dash distance is small. But in the cutscene it look like a swarm of bats all the way.


And old bat swarm ultimate they spoiled two times (hard to believe this is possible). First time when tie it to awfuly looking Blood Scion, second time when added some stange red glow to all bats, they look like they are made of foil.

Josira

Noxavian wrote: »

Change my mind. This uniquely animated, beautifully designed ability should be given to the players. The sound effects and animation it plays during the wind up and casting is what A LOT of us were wanting from the rework. (Turning into a swarm of bats). The way the skill animates is you disperse into a swarm of bats over a short cast-time then launch forward. It is unclear whether or not it is targeted or can just be cast in general, but either way this skill....is and looks great.

I originally wasn't going to make anymore threads about the rework, but after seeing this skill in game for myself, I want it more than literally any other skill in the game.

And to think, this is just a basic vampire skill. For those that say it wouldn't fit in our bloodline, keep in mind Lamae's bloodline has a direct affinity to bats in lore. So literally anything involving bats is fair game.

This skill would be utterly amazing and fix the main issue the vampire rework has when it comes to skill design is that there is no gap closer or way to stay on your opponent directly tied into the skill line despite having a melee-focused spammable.

I dont even have the heart to play through greymore. I maxed out antiquities,getting the skill line then leveling it up avoiding that whole zone. I just dont have the heart to see what we could of gotten if time and effort was actually used.
Mechanically,a gapcloser would make the skill line into one that could actually be used in pvp,fixing its problem of not being able to apply pressure,making people actually want to go past stages 1-3.
art wise,there would still be problems. with the daedric clown transformation and the slap spamable
Why not make the blood scion more bat like? change the daedric look entirely.
I use Bone Colossus on my vampire character. because it looks 100x better.
...back to gapclosers I even tried to use stampede with a 2h to get my gapcloser...it...was abysmal. didnt have stamina to break out of anything or dodge roll. and of course it did about like 200-100 damage in pvp so...
Yeah
They need to replace blood frenzy. its not a 'frenzy' its a 'I use it for ganking maybe,turn it off after I use snipe'
probably the most laid back playstyle in the game
but apparently 'it ticks all the boxes for what it means to be a vampire'
no
no im not going to let that go
[snip]

Edit:
What I would personally do if I had the power to change blood frenzy is
"for 20s you invoke your hunger,gaining major sorcery and making your light and heavy attacks deal x amount extra damage,but restricting you to melee claw attacks."
Morph one-Clouding Frenzy: activate the skill again to teleport to your target in a swarm of bats,dealing x amount of magic damage and inflicting (insert DoT or status effect for x seconds)

Morph Two-(insert name for health morph): "changes to a toggle costing health,but drastically increases the light and heavy attack damage,and everytime an enemy dies within x amount of seconds after you hit them with a light and heavy attack,you heal for x amount."

there
fixed blood frenzy
now its a frenzy.
and not a suicide gank buff

[Edited to remove Bashing]

Noxavian

Josira wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Change my mind. This uniquely animated, beautifully designed ability should be given to the players. The sound effects and animation it plays during the wind up and casting is what A LOT of us were wanting from the rework. (Turning into a swarm of bats). The way the skill animates is you disperse into a swarm of bats over a short cast-time then launch forward. It is unclear whether or not it is targeted or can just be cast in general, but either way this skill....is and looks great.

I originally wasn't going to make anymore threads about the rework, but after seeing this skill in game for myself, I want it more than literally any other skill in the game.

And to think, this is just a basic vampire skill. For those that say it wouldn't fit in our bloodline, keep in mind Lamae's bloodline has a direct affinity to bats in lore. So literally anything involving bats is fair game.

This skill would be utterly amazing and fix the main issue the vampire rework has when it comes to skill design is that there is no gap closer or way to stay on your opponent directly tied into the skill line despite having a melee-focused spammable.

I dont even have the heart to play through greymore. I maxed out antiquities,getting the skill line then leveling it up avoiding that whole zone. I just dont have the heart to see what we could of gotten if time and effort was actually used.
Mechanically,a gapcloser would make the skill line into one that could actually be used in pvp,fixing its problem of not being able to apply pressure,making people actually want to go past stages 1-3.
art wise,there would still be problems. with the daedric clown transformation and the slap spamable
Why not make the blood scion more bat like? change the daedric look entirely.
I use Bone Colossus on my vampire character. because it looks 100x better.
...back to gapclosers I even tried to use stampede with a 2h to get my gapcloser...it...was abysmal. didnt have stamina to break out of anything or dodge roll. and of course it did about like 200-100 damage in pvp so...
Yeah
They need to replace blood frenzy. its not a 'frenzy' its a 'I use it for ganking maybe,turn it off after I use snipe'
probably the most laid back playstyle in the game
but apparently 'it ticks all the boxes for what it means to be a vampire'
no
no im not going to let that go
[snip]

imagine thinking a simple dmg/self harm toggle is what 'ticks all the boxes for what it means to be a vampire'.

Ironically, if you go back and watch the video, he says that while the vamp PC is running into a vamp NPC casting a huge batswarm attack.

If having little fart clouds floating around me is more vampiric than that, then again I ask to be able to play as a generic NPC. Please.

I'd have more fun getting slaughtered by the players of the world than actually playing as one.

Vevvev

Josira wrote: »

'it ticks all the boxes for what it means to be a vampire'

Every time I read that line I cringe. It makes me feel like the whoever was designing the abilities had no idea what vampires were about in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

A batswarm gap closer, a vampiric grip pull ((Which I might add could be a morph of a batswarm gap closer much like Empowering chains is a morph of Fiery Grip)), and any kind of bat or life drain type of attack would have fit better towards the vampire theme than Blood Frenzy, especially with how they implemented the ability to the game.

ApostateHobo

I genuinely want to hear their reasoning as to why npc vampires got a much better overhaul than player vampires. They gave npc's everything we asked for, and gave us nothing. Why?

Noxavian

ApostateHobo wrote: »

I genuinely want to hear their reasoning as to why npc vampires got a much better overhaul than player vampires. They gave npc's everything we asked for, and gave us nothing. Why?

Exactly. I want to know why they decided to spend MORE money on new animations instead of just giving us the same skills as the NPCs....

Noxavian

Vevvev wrote: »

Josira wrote: »

'it ticks all the boxes for what it means to be a vampire'

Every time I read that line I cringe. It makes me feel like the whoever was designing the abilities had no idea what vampires were about in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

A batswarm gap closer, a vampiric grip pull ((Which I might add could be a morph of a batswarm gap closer much like Empowering chains is a morph of Fiery Grip)), and any kind of bat or life drain type of attack would have fit better towards the vampire theme than Blood Frenzy, especially with how they implemented the ability to the game.

EXACTLY.

It's amazing how they used all of this vampire stuff for the chapter, but didn't think 'man, maybe we should give some of that to the player?'

Elvenheart

In the vampire showcase video at 2:03, the example PLAYER vampire somehow drops down out of the sky on some npcs. Everything else in this video that shows example players using vampire skills are things we can do. I wonder if some type of closer skill is/was in the works at some point when this video was made?

Noxavian

Elvenheart wrote: »

In the vampire showcase video at 2:03, the example PLAYER vampire somehow drops down out of the sky on some npcs. Everything else in this video that shows example players using vampire skills are things we can do. I wonder if some type of closer skill is/was in the works at some point when this video was made?

If they did indeed have it in development, I'm very curious as to what happened to it as well tbh

XomRhoK

Elvenheart wrote: »

In the vampire showcase video at 2:03, the example PLAYER vampire somehow drops down out of the sky on some npcs. Everything else in this video that shows example players using vampire skills are things we can do. I wonder if some type of closer skill is/was in the works at some point when this video was made?

It's just a directed trailer, vampire just jumped down from something, rock, for example. But at Greymoor cutscene there is similar scene, where vampires jump down from rock or sky and uses bat swarm ability for that, at 1:21

Merca

These skills belong to the Antogonist vampires, another clan. Or do you want to be traitors to your clan?

Sephyr

Merca wrote: »

These skills belong to the Antogonist vampires, another clan. Or do you want to be traitors to your clan?

Do you have proof of that? Because as far as I'm seeing, there's nothing in any of the new bits of lore that says that the 'abilities' are 'specific' to any 'clan'. You're gravely mistaken there. And note: Just because an NPC uses it and the PC doesn't isn't any indication. That just means you can't use said abilities.

Spectral_Force

This has got to be like the fourth time I'm saying this, but I'm fully supporting this idea. Another voice where it counts, I guess.
I suppose I might also repost my idea for a gap closer I had up on the PTS forum (in a similar topic of yours, no less):

Spectral_Force wrote: »

[*] Vampiric Dash, morphing into Violent Dash or Vampiric Blur (also working names). Criminal Act.

Uses NPC visuals at 2:07. This is a basic Magicka gap closing ability, like Toppling Charge, except it Knocks enemies Down, costs less and deals no (or very little) damage. Violent Dash morph increases damage done, but removes knockdown effect (think Critical Charge). Vampiric Blur morph retains knockdown, and makes you Invisible for the duration - as brief as this might be, it will proc Strike from the Shadows.
This is a gap closing ability needed for the more melee-oriented vampires (and since the spammable is melee, that'd be at least 70% of all vampire toons). Violent Dash is what people would take if they were rocking Mesmerize. Vampiric Blur is a "safer" morph that allows you to proc SftS without having to quick-toggle Mist Form.

Noxavian

Merca wrote: »

These skills belong to the Antogonist vampires, another clan. Or do you want to be traitors to your clan?

You....you are aware that BATS are a big part of Lamae's bloodline, right?

Go on. Explain to me how them getting a bat swarm dash would be lore breaking.

Noxavian

Spectral_Force wrote: »

This has got to be like the fourth time I'm saying this, but I'm fully supporting this idea. Another voice where it counts, I guess.
I suppose I might also repost my idea for a gap closer I had up on the PTS forum (in a similar topic of yours, no less):

Spectral_Force wrote: »

[*] Vampiric Dash, morphing into Violent Dash or Vampiric Blur (also working names). Criminal Act.

Uses NPC visuals at 2:07. This is a basic Magicka gap closing ability, like Toppling Charge, except it Knocks enemies Down, costs less and deals no (or very little) damage. Violent Dash morph increases damage done, but removes knockdown effect (think Critical Charge). Vampiric Blur morph retains knockdown, and makes you Invisible for the duration - as brief as this might be, it will proc Strike from the Shadows.
This is a gap closing ability needed for the more melee-oriented vampires (and since the spammable is melee, that'd be at least 70% of all vampire toons). Violent Dash is what people would take if they were rocking Mesmerize. Vampiric Blur is a "safer" morph that allows you to proc SftS without having to quick-toggle Mist Form.

I'd legit have a stroke of happiness if this ability was added.

Glad to have your support though!

Noxavian

Sephyr wrote: »

Merca wrote: »

These skills belong to the Antogonist vampires, another clan. Or do you want to be traitors to your clan?

Do you have proof of that? Because as far as I'm seeing, there's nothing in any of the new bits of lore that says that the 'abilities' are 'specific' to any 'clan'. You're gravely mistaken there. And note: Just because an NPC uses it and the PC doesn't isn't any indication. That just means you can't use said abilities.

not to mention the affinity to bats Lamae's line has. Quite frankly bats not being more a part of their kit is kinda lore breaking within itself.

With that said, they could of easily replaced Blood Frenzy with this gap closer skill and literally nobody would bat (hah pun) an eye. Imagine if it was revealed with this bat swarm gap closer and in the trailer this is the ability they showed when talking about "it ticks all the boxes to be a vampire"

Bats. Mist. Could even give it some life steal if they wanted. Mobility. Aggression. It's LITERALLY THE PERFECT SKILL

Saelent

Frenzy should at most turn off the ability to heal and for seconds after at most, not have such a high health cost.

Anyway...when I’m playing my vampire I’m always missing the idea of that bat gap closer.
Gap closer that costs health, anyone?

Also, what about a combat bite? Dive on your enemy and feed to gain health? That would be amazing in pvp.

“You suck!”
“I’m a Vampire! Kinda the point!”

Noxavian

Saelent wrote: »

Frenzy should at most turn off the ability to heal and for seconds after at most, not have such a high health cost.

Anyway...when I’m playing my vampire I’m always missing the idea of that bat gap closer.
Gap closer that costs health, anyone?

Also, what about a combat bite? Dive on your enemy and feed to gain health? That would be amazing in pvp.

“You suck!”
“I’m a Vampire! Kinda the point!”

Again, an amazing ability that would be so sick to have!!

Grianasteri

Totally agree.

Way back when everyone was speculating about what skills and reworks we would like to see for Vampires, a gap closer, similar in practice to the NightBlade Lotus Fan, was pretty high on the list.

ZOS got a lot right with vampires, but I think this was one area they missed the mark. It may be intentional and have a good reason, but I don't know what that is... I guess the argument is, go a character/skill line that provides a gap close, or use mist form etc, but these are sub par solutions.

Spectral_Force

Saelent wrote: »

Also, what about a combat bite? Dive on your enemy and feed to gain health? That would be amazing in pvp.

“You suck!”
“I’m a Vampire! Kinda the point!”

You know, I might be imagining this but I feel like someone from Zenimax actually said combat feeding will make it into the game. It would have been in one of the older announcements, or perhaps during one of those Greymoor reveal events; must have been a few months ago, at least.

Not trying to use it as a gotcha to say that "you promised combat feeding", since the revamp was probably in its conceptual stages when this was said (if it was said at all), but I recall getting really excited about it.

Josira

I doubt they will change anything though
I love vampires. so. damn. much. and bats. and they just...really did vampires dirty in this patch.
I used to use clouding swarm in battlegrounds. as a gapcloser and a spamable melee attack to pressure nightblades,and anybody running away. worked amazingly. cant do that anymore of course.
I was so hyped when it was found that they where planning on giving us a transformation
That hype died when it was actually shown.

If they change anything,it will likely be in the zone dlc. Im hoping..really hoping they had plans for better things that they planned on implementing but were rushed out for release. and that they continue to work on it and actually release a skill line that doesnt look like a bad joke.
Im fine with the passives. Im fine with the ability cost increases even. But the major flaws are Blood Frenzy being a joke,and Vampiric drain being just as bad of a joke. nobody is going to slot those two skills.
Vampiric Drain,should be an execute maybe,and blood frenzy should be a gapcloser,or a claw toggle and gapcloser.
And Blood Scion...just please change how horrible it looks. I know a rework for it just wont happen so at least make it easier on the eyes. not some daedric clown.
As for Eviscerate,fixing the searing strike animation to not show weapons,and making the sound more impactful would go miles. if your not going to add claw light and heavy attacks,give it an alternating animation thing like necromancers have with their spam-able.

Noxavian

Grianasteri wrote: »

Totally agree.

Way back when everyone was speculating about what skills and reworks we would like to see for Vampires, a gap closer, similar in practice to the NightBlade Lotus Fan, was pretty high on the list.

ZOS got a lot right with vampires, but I think this was one area they missed the mark. It may be intentional and have a good reason, but I don't know what that is... I guess the argument is, go a character/skill line that provides a gap close, or use mist form etc, but these are sub par solutions.

Especially if you're like me, a necromancer or warden. Classes with 0 mobility options. Try playing this in PvP as a magcro and trying to stick on someone....it isn't going to work. Even with beckoning armor because that involves them having to hit you.

At the very least, I want to know why we can't have it.

Sephyr

Noxavian wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Merca wrote: »

These skills belong to the Antogonist vampires, another clan. Or do you want to be traitors to your clan?

Do you have proof of that? Because as far as I'm seeing, there's nothing in any of the new bits of lore that says that the 'abilities' are 'specific' to any 'clan'. You're gravely mistaken there. And note: Just because an NPC uses it and the PC doesn't isn't any indication. That just means you can't use said abilities.

not to mention the affinity to bats Lamae's line has. Quite frankly bats not being more a part of their kit is kinda lore breaking within itself.

With that said, they could of easily replaced Blood Frenzy with this gap closer skill and literally nobody would bat (hah pun) an eye. Imagine if it was revealed with this bat swarm gap closer and in the trailer this is the ability they showed when talking about "it ticks all the boxes to be a vampire"

Bats. Mist. Could even give it some life steal if they wanted. Mobility. Aggression. It's LITERALLY THE PERFECT SKILL

I'm still kind of holding out hope that there's either a new 'guild' of vampire abilities that synergizes with the line, else that's a lot of unused combat abilities. At the same time I realize this is ZoS and they'll probably never let us have the good stuff in terms of vampiric abilities.

That being said, I do definitely agree that Blood Frenzy is just extremely out of place. It feels like it's trying to compete with Psijic in terms of usage, but it falls flat with the cost mechanic and it going down to dangerous levels. I literally do NOT see anyone in their right mind using this aside from cheesy gank builds that take little to zero skill to pull off. It's boring, it's tasteless, and it's most certainly NOT VAMPIRE LORE FRIENDLY. Seriously, the 'loremasters' of this game and putting together abilities have the most weirdest take on the lore where they inject most of their fanfic riddled ideas rather than build on the world that's already been given to them. It's more than just a little annoying.

navystylz_ESO

Josira wrote: »

I doubt they will change anything though
I love vampires. so. damn. much. and bats. and they just...really did vampires dirty in this patch.
I used to use clouding swarm in battlegrounds. as a gapcloser and a spamable melee attack to pressure nightblades,and anybody running away. worked amazingly. cant do that anymore of course.
I was so hyped when it was found that they where planning on giving us a transformation
That hype died when it was actually shown.

If they change anything,it will likely be in the zone dlc. Im hoping..really hoping they had plans for better things that they planned on implementing but were rushed out for release. and that they continue to work on it and actually release a skill line that doesnt look like a bad joke.
Im fine with the passives. Im fine with the ability cost increases even. But the major flaws are Blood Frenzy being a joke,and Vampiric drain being just as bad of a joke. nobody is going to slot those two skills.
Vampiric Drain,should be an execute maybe,and blood frenzy should be a gapcloser,or a claw toggle and gapcloser.
And Blood Scion...just please change how horrible it looks. I know a rework for it just wont happen so at least make it easier on the eyes. not some daedric clown.
As for Eviscerate,fixing the searing strike animation to not show weapons,and making the sound more impactful would go miles. if your not going to add claw light and heavy attacks,give it an alternating animation thing like necromancers have with their spam-able.

Merca

Sephyr wrote: »

Merca wrote: »

These skills belong to the Antogonist vampires, another clan. Or do you want to be traitors to your clan?

Do you have proof of that? Because as far as I'm seeing, there's nothing in any of the new bits of lore that says that the 'abilities' are 'specific' to any 'clan'. You're gravely mistaken there. And note: Just because an NPC uses it and the PC doesn't isn't any indication. That just means you can't use said abilities.

The evidence in the game, in the story mission tell us where these vampires came from.