Vampire - A simple solution

Rovaeden

Vampire - A simple solution

After some discussion on my original thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/529602/a-proper-vampire-overhaul-suggestion-thread-for-zos
and some further thought I believe I have come to understand what would be the best solution for fixing the vampire overhaul.

Multiple people, myself included have stated the desire to see the Vampire skill line be more about “feeling like a Vampire” rather than “adding power” to their builds.
I firmly believe this is the solution.

Make the Vampire skill line 100% utility.

Every class already has sufficient damage output solutions for overcoming the content they want to enjoy and ZOS has stated that they want to avoid making Vampire “Best In Slot” necessary for competitive gameplay.
Added utility that does nothing to adjust damage output would be an amazing solution.

As I said in the other thread, I would honestly be happier with a vampire toolkit that was 100% utility and did absolutely nothing to adjust damage values either dealt or taken than I am with the current overhaul.
There is so much cool potential for a utility toolkit that offered stuff like

Mobility / Movement speed / dash / dodge buffs
CC
CC Breaks
Fall Damage Reduction
Aggro Drops
Gap Closers
Teleports
Multiple Feeding interactions - a "persuade or intimidate" function to use on civilians to feed without a bounty
Self Healing

Regarding healing, currently, every class skill line has a healing ability of its own, so giving Vampire life drain abilities that deal less damage than a class dps ability but heal for an amount comparable to class heals that dps builds already have access to would not, I do not believe, unbalance the playing field in pvp or in pve.

I have already listed some possible abilities that I think would be amazing in my prior thread so I will not repeat them in full here, but in brief abilities like turning into bats as a gap closer, or a bat form overland travel buff that gave Major and Minor Expedition. Giving Mesmerize an ability to charm civilians so you can feed on them without killing them and without a bounty.
There are so many possibilities for pure utility skill sets that would be fun and not unbalance the game.

I truly hope that ZOS reads and considers this solution.

x48rph

They just completely overhauled vampire. I highly doubt they'll do anything more than tweak it for at least a few years. And by tweak I mean they'll probably nerf the crap out of blood for blood so every magicka dps isn't a vampire.

Josira

x48rph wrote: »

They just completely overhauled vampire. I highly doubt they'll do anything more than tweak it for at least a few years. And by tweak I mean they'll probably nerf the crap out of blood for blood so every magicka dps isn't a vampire.

Yeah, this was their 'rework'
They already clapped themselves on the back and called it a day. it likely wont be touched upon for a few years if at all.

Rovaeden

If you are unhappy with the current state of vampire then you need to speak up and add your voice to the collective displeasure.
The only way ZOS WILL DO ANYTHING is if we increase the pressure on them to the point they have no other choice.
The only way to do that, short of storming the gates at ZOS HQ, is to speak up on these forums.

They may not read every thread or every letter of text but you can be sure they monitor volume. Enough upset users will cause the execs to sweat which will force them to tell the dev team to divert resources to fix this stuff.

If this matters to you, do more than be Eeyore "ohh well... its just going to rain again anyway, so I might as well just stay in the puddle.."

Noxavian

Rovaeden wrote: »

Vampire - A simple solution

After some discussion on my original thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/529602/a-proper-vampire-overhaul-suggestion-thread-for-zos
and some further thought I believe I have come to understand what would be the best solution for fixing the vampire overhaul.

Multiple people, myself included have stated the desire to see the Vampire skill line be more about “feeling like a Vampire” rather than “adding power” to their builds.
I firmly believe this is the solution.

Make the Vampire skill line 100% utility.

Every class already has sufficient damage output solutions for overcoming the content they want to enjoy and ZOS has stated that they want to avoid making Vampire “Best In Slot” necessary for competitive gameplay.
Added utility that does nothing to adjust damage output would be an amazing solution.

As I said in the other thread, I would honestly be happier with a vampire toolkit that was 100% utility and did absolutely nothing to adjust damage values either dealt or taken than I am with the current overhaul.
There is so much cool potential for a utility toolkit that offered stuff like

Mobility / Movement speed / dash / dodge buffs
CC
CC Breaks
Fall Damage Reduction
Aggro Drops
Gap Closers
Teleports
Multiple Feeding interactions - a "persuade or intimidate" function to use on civilians to feed without a bounty
Self Healing

Regarding healing, currently, every class skill line has a healing ability of its own, so giving Vampire life drain abilities that deal less damage than a class dps ability but heal for an amount comparable to class heals that dps builds already have access to would not, I do not believe, unbalance the playing field in pvp or in pve.

I have already listed some possible abilities that I think would be amazing in my prior thread so I will not repeat them in full here, but in brief abilities like turning into bats as a gap closer, or a bat form overland travel buff that gave Major and Minor Expedition. Giving Mesmerize an ability to charm civilians so you can feed on them without killing them and without a bounty.
There are so many possibilities for pure utility skill sets that would be fun and not unbalance the game.

I truly hope that ZOS reads and considers this solution.

I can agree with this. Vamps having shadow/blood magic as pure utility would be very sick. Some damage too, but not enough dmg to remove class spammables.

Josira

Thing is
They wont do a thing.
People are more vocal and dissatisfied about the Vet Maelstrom Changes,a lot more then the few who cared about Vampire as a skill line.
And yet
Nothing happened there.
Being Vocal on the Forums does nothing. it never has done anything.
My account is new here but I am not new at all
Ive been here since console release. didnt have a forums account until recently,in which I moved to Pc 2 years ago.
As getting a Forums account is a painful process.

But yes. being vocal and angry about something on the forums doesnt change a thing.
Ive seen...once..once it worked. and that was with Dragon Knight's Coagulating Blood morph. although I could be remembering wrong.
Never again have I seen anytime people complaining about anything on the forums actually changing anything.
They have changed it. its ***. the animations are terrible,the art design is goofy and it mechanically just does not work in pvp. but they have patted themselves on the back,called it a job well done and moved on. its too late.
nothing to do until they release the next chapter which will probably have 1-3 'new' races that are just reskins. like Naga,Sea Elves and Reachmen. and that would be the 'oh its a chapter thing' combined with mediocre story telling and bad balance decisions. calling it now thats what the next chapter will have. no new classes. or skill lines.
This whole chapter we have now has been the biggest let down ive seen in ESO

Blaqk_EyeD

Anyone else hoping this is the first step to a full vampire class? Not just to add to other classes. I'd prefer an all in vamp and WW class choice not just in addition to what I'm already playing. The current benifit/penalty on other classes is lame IMO. At best it only half works so why not separate them?

OmniDo

Rovaeden wrote: »

The only way ZOS WILL DO ANYTHING is if we increase the pressure on them to the point they have no other choice.

Yeah umm...that's how we ended up with this backwards situation to begin with.
Mob rule is dumb because Mobs are typically dumb.

Rovaeden wrote: »

The only way to do that, short of storming the gates at ZOS HQ, is to speak up on these forums.

Naw, you can just vote with your wallet.
Oh, and storming the gates is also very effective, except that most people don't have enough of a spine to do that, hence why most situations remain the same until they do.

Josira

OmniDo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Rovaeden wrote: »

The only way ZOS WILL DO ANYTHING is if we increase the pressure on them to the point they have no other choice.

Yeah umm...that's how we ended up with this backwards situation to begin with.
Mob rule is dumb because Mobs are typically dumb.

show previous quotes

Rovaeden wrote: »

The only way to do that, short of storming the gates at ZOS HQ, is to speak up on these forums.

Naw, you can just vote with your wallet.
Oh, and storming the gates is also very effective, except that most people don't have enough of a spine to do that, hence why most situations remain the same until they do.

voting with your wallet doesnt work either.
the moment,the very moment the game stops producing income for them,when keeping the servers running is costing them more then they are making,they will shut down the game.
I see threads constantly about "voting with your wallet"
and its just..do you really think that they would be like "oh no we arnt making money,better listen to our community"
no. they wouldnt. they would end support for the game in a heartbeat.

Noxavian

Blaqk_EyeD wrote: »

Anyone else hoping this is the first step to a full vampire class? Not just to add to other classes. I'd prefer an all in vamp and WW class choice not just in addition to what I'm already playing. The current benifit/penalty on other classes is lame IMO. At best it only half works so why not separate them?

If they released full classes for each or maybe made it to where the disease replaced your chosen class, I would literally explode with happiness.

OmniDo

Josira wrote: »

the moment,the very moment the game stops producing income for them,when keeping the servers running is costing them more then they are making,they will shut down the game.

If that is/were the case, then their board of directors and investors are pretty stupid.
That's typically not likely in this cut-throat capitalistic world, but I'll grant you that given the historical precedent of the first 20 years of this new century, it's certainly possible.

Josira wrote: »

and its just..do you really think that they would be like "oh no we arnt making money,better listen to our community"
no. they wouldnt. they would end support for the game in a heartbeat.

Then they would be as dumb as the Mobs they allow themselves to be ruled by.

It wouldnt be the first time in MMO history that project managers and "Creative directors" etc... (whatever epaulet-level title they want to confer upon themselves) made horrible decisions that cost them their livelihoods.
The end of SWG was due to a similar mistake, but this is all academic.

It's simple really.
Force decides all outcomes.
All of them.
Period.

"The world only makes sense if you force it to." - Batman

TropicsDelight

Serious question,

If they make the vampire 100% utility and give it a super useful toolkit like you suggest how does vampire not become something every single person in the game wants and we have an ESO world full of vampires and vampire wannabes who just don't have a bite yet?

Should a MMORPG have every single player who plays the game want to be a vampire? Does that make sense?

I think making vampire a pure bonus with no drawbacks makes it suddenly become an obvious must have "curse" everyone wants and that becomes just as bad as being a vampire being 100% negative for everyone and thus being something noone wants.

Somehow they need to tweak that skill tree to be viable to use in current content up to end game and balance the vampire abilities such that when they are used in place of class abilities the tradeoff becomes fairly moot (aka balanced). If a person is a vampire and uses purely class abilities they "should" be hindering themselves since they are not actually using the vampire line at all. The balance would come into play with using the vampire line in place of class abilities.

At this point that does not require an overhaul to the design, it probably does include continued tweaking of skill costs or adding sets that can buff/adjust the cost certain vampire abilities in future patches. The devs made massive changes to the vampire line right up to the point of release of Greymoor and obviously that has not been properly tested and the skill tree is not likely where it needs to be and will require continued tweaks.

Hexi

The way it is now is fine. It has fun abilities, but they aren't too strong as to make it mandatory. Stop trying to fix what isn't broken.

idk

x48rph wrote: »

They just completely overhauled vampire. I highly doubt they'll do anything more than tweak it for at least a few years. And by tweak I mean they'll probably nerf the crap out of blood for blood so every magicka dps isn't a vampire.

Pretty much this.

I expect Zos will be looking at how the new skill line is used on live over the next few cycles (at least 6 - 9 months). That will tell them if the new design is working well or if it is a dud.

They just heard us raise our voices during the past month and did some minor tweaks as a result. That pretty much says that right now they are not interested in doing another complete overhaul.

TropicsDelight

idk wrote: »

I expect Zos will be looking at how the new skill line is used on live over the next few cycles (at least 6 - 9 months). That will tell them if the new design is working well or if it is a dud.

Or if it is simply completely out of balance one way or the other.

Rovaeden

Noxavian wrote: »

show previous quotes

Blaqk_EyeD wrote: »

Anyone else hoping this is the first step to a full vampire class? Not just to add to other classes. I'd prefer an all in vamp and WW class choice not just in addition to what I'm already playing. The current benifit/penalty on other classes is lame IMO. At best it only half works so why not separate them?

If they released full classes for each or maybe made it to where the disease replaced your chosen class, I would literally explode with happiness.

Or even better, if they made both WW and Vamp into full, three branch skill lines that overlay the class they are added to.

Rovaeden

I agree that there is a possibility that making vampire 100% utility might make everybody want to use it for the quality of life that it might offer.
I see this as less of a problem however, given that it would not be any different in terms of player usage numbers than it was pre-greymoor and it would have the added benefit of actually being FUN to use rather than just being a boring passive for the min-maxers.

Darkstride

x48rph wrote: »

They just completely overhauled vampire. I highly doubt they'll do anything more than tweak it for at least a few years. And by tweak I mean they'll probably nerf the crap out of blood for blood so every magicka dps isn't a vampire.

Even on the PTS, they basically released it and disregarded any and all feedback. The only real change they made was nerfing Blood Frenzy.

Multiple patch notes on PTS with little to no vampire adjustments. No replies, communications or conversations about the vampire skill line.

Then the "revamp" trailer was released and was comprised almost entirely of feeding animations to make it look cool. They showcase the least vampire-like ability in the lineup, Blood Frenzy. At that point, they had solidified that they started the PTS with no real intention of getting feedback on how it plays or fits into the theme.

It is how it is and I see no reason to believe they would start listening now.

That wasn't meant to be a rant if that's what it sounds like. I just really feel like communication is key, and more people would be on board with the changes if they had actually taken the time to explain why the changes are the way that they are and acknowledge that they hear the feedback.

Vanos444

Rovaeden wrote: »

If you are unhappy with the current state of vampire then you need to speak up and add your voice to the collective displeasure.
The only way ZOS WILL DO ANYTHING is if we increase the pressure on them to the point they have no other choice.
The only way to do that, short of storming the gates at ZOS HQ, is to speak up on these forums.

They may not read every thread or every letter of text but you can be sure they monitor volume. Enough upset users will cause the execs to sweat which will force them to tell the dev team to divert resources to fix this stuff.

If this matters to you, do more than be Eeyore "ohh well... its just going to rain again anyway, so I might as well just stay in the puddle.."

More like the thread will get closed and that player will get banned for saying such things...
I mean, actual feed back. Ether way, the Devs don't read the forums. Maybe Twitter can help?!

Rovaeden

Vanos444 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Rovaeden wrote: »

If you are unhappy with the current state of vampire then you need to speak up and add your voice to the collective displeasure.
The only way ZOS WILL DO ANYTHING is if we increase the pressure on them to the point they have no other choice.
The only way to do that, short of storming the gates at ZOS HQ, is to speak up on these forums.

They may not read every thread or every letter of text but you can be sure they monitor volume. Enough upset users will cause the execs to sweat which will force them to tell the dev team to divert resources to fix this stuff.

If this matters to you, do more than be Eeyore "ohh well... its just going to rain again anyway, so I might as well just stay in the puddle.."

More like the thread will get closed and that player will get banned for saying such things...
I mean, actual feed back. Ether way, the Devs don't read the forums. Maybe Twitter can help?!

Having the thread censored by ZOS is a very real possibility these days.