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A Proper Vampire Overhaul - Suggestion thread for ZOS -
Rovaeden
✭✭✭
A Proper Vampire Overhaul
After playing with the Vampire changes for a while on the PTS and now on live I would like to offer my suggestions on what could be done to make what feels like an incomplete and rushed overhaul into a complete kit.
I am aware that the Vampire skill line, like Werewolf, is meant to be an additional toy that adds flavor without becoming seen as Best In Slot that everybody must use in order to feel competitive.
At the same time, the skill line needs to be fun to use and offer abilities that provide the fantasy of being a vampire.
With this in mind I believe that my ideas below may help ZOS complete what feels like an incomplete but well intentioned overhaul.
First off, we need to dial in what a Vampire is conceptually.
Without writing a novel covering all the various vampire lore from around the world, let’s instead take a few common themes.
Ultimately, vampires are supernatural predators that drain blood / life energy from prey to sustain their undead immortality.
Broadly they are said to possess great physical strength, the ability to move faster than the eye can see, they are cunning and stealthy and they have the ability to manipulate the minds of their victims in order to facilitate attack or retreat.
Vampiric Blood Magic as a concept should sacrifice the vampire’s own blood for a good reason only. That reason should be in service of elevating the function and power of his own abilities and increasing the return of blood / life force from his victim, otherwise there is no point in sacrificing the resource most precious to the vampire ie. Blood.
Since ESO does not offer much in the way of political intrigue or the ability to play as a seductive vampire, we need to look at the above concepts from the point of view of a combat centric game.
I am going to suggest changes to certain abilities below. I am not going to talk about abilities or passives that I think are fine as they stand. I am going to address each ability below with the concepts touched on above in mind, namely Strength, Speed, Stealth and Manipulation.
Abilities
Eviscerate
The default ability should cost health to cast but should also drain life from the victim as a percentage of damage done. This is classic vampire, the life draining touch.
The melee morph should function as above but scale its damage with missing health, similar to how it functions now with the addition of a life drain.
The magicka morph should be a ranged ability that draws life force from the target from range, but to a lesser extent than the melee version. Less risk, less reward. This would in effect replace Vampiric Drain which is in itself a lackluster ability that can and should be replaced with something more interesting.
Blood Frenzy Augment - Increase range and give melee versions a short range leap / pounce gap closer of like 10 meters.
Blood Frenzy
This ability confounds me. I love it conceptually and hate it in function.
The concept of the vampire burning their own blood to enhance their combat prowess is compelling and lots of other games contain abilities like this.
The execution however strikes me as clunky and fairly uninteresting.
I do not have a clear picture in my mind of exactly what this ability should do in order to be balanced while also fulfilling the above concepts of what a vampire is.
Here are some of my various ideas of what this ability could do either as a toggle or a single click buff with a duration.
Reduces the Non-Vampire ability cost penalty for a duration.
Improve the Vampire ability cost reduction for a duration.
Improves Life-drain return / healing done / healing taken for a duration
Gives a movement speed buff for a duration that is useful for combat, unlike Elusive mist.
Provides a damage buff that increases to a certain value cap (such as 150% weapon / spell damage) as a percentage of damage done per stack over a duration. This is similar to how Simmering Frenzy works now, but would provide a definite max buff with less risk to the user.
Augments other vampire abilities with a secondary effect while active. I have noted these possible augments below the ability they affect.
Vampiric Drain
This ability is just simply lackluster and can and should be removed.
This slot could be replaced with a much more interesting ability such as a much requested gap closer or an AoE ability.
One possibility that I particularly like is turning into bats.
Vampire Bats
The vampire summons a swarm of bats that attack a target dealing damage over time. A portion of the damage dealt is returned as healing to the vampire with each tick of damage. While the ability is active the ability can be activated a second time. Doing so turns the vampire into a cloud of bats and teleports them behind the selected target.
Or
The vampire turns into a swarm of bats and flies to a selected enemy or location (ground aoe targeting if no enemy selected). All enemies at that location are attacked by a swarm of bats as the vampire reforms at that location. The bats deal damage over time for a duration and the vampire heals for a portion of the damage dealt with each tick.
Morphs. Increase the range, area and / or duration of the ability.
Blood Frenzy Augment - leave a swarm of bats at the location you left that deal aoe. An enemy can only have a max of 2 stacks of bats so you can’t just spam bats for crazy aoe stacks.
Mesmerize
In pve the CC duration should be much longer like 12 seconds or cause affected targets to drop the vampire from their agro tables.
This would allow vamps to run past encounters as many will currently use invisi-run to do, but will actually require some interaction and choice on the part of the player.
I am unsure what else this ability could or should do.
Given that in pve most monsters are not dangerous enough to bother using CC against and the monsters that are dangerous enough to need CC used against them are usually bosses and thus immune to CC.
Therefore it seems to me that there really isn’t much use for CC outside of pvp. Given that, CC should have alternate utility in pve.
It might be cool to be able to cast Mesmerize on civilians in order to be able to feed from them without killing them and without incurring a bounty.
Mist Form
This ability is an excellent escape or overland mobility tool.
It would be cool to provide a choice between combat utility and overland mobility.
Mist Form could provide invisibility and CC break mechanics but no movement bonus.
A morph into a Bat Form could provide overland mobility with a large, perhaps 40% movement bonus and immobility immunity without the invisibility.
Blood Frenzy Augment - Feeds health into Magicka in order to extend the duration of the ability toggle.
Blood Scion
It would be cool to allow the vampire to maintain the war-form as long as their health remains above a certain threshold or to add a blood or feed timer similar to Werewolf and devour.
Unnatural Movement
While the invisible sprinting is a very cool concept and I like it a lot, it seems to me that it could be so much more. It also seems that it can be used to skip or cheese an awful lot of content. I know people run past lots of content anyway and this invisi-run makes doing that easier, I would think that more creative solutions to skipping content could be formulated, such as using Mesmerize to CC a group and make them drop agro.
I think a cooler idea for Unnatural Movement would be something someone else suggested in the PTS forums (sorry, I forgot who) and that is to have this ability modify dodge roll so that you burst into a swarm of bats and dash in the direction you desire.
Perhaps it could be cheaper than dodge or not give dodge fatigue.
Vampire Stages
In most common vampire lore, hungry vampires are more feral and bestial and fed vampires are more in control of the beast within and flushed with life.
The vampire skin visuals and feeding penalties as they currently stand are backwards.
Stage 1 Vampires are hungry vampires, so they should have the most penalties and look the most feral and be the vampires that townsfolk recognize as monsters and refuse to deal with (and, what if I am wearing a full face covering helm? How do they know I am a vampire?).
Stage 4 vampires are fully fed and so should look the most human and be the most powerful given that they are full of stolen vitality.
In closing
I would love it if ZOS would acknowledge that a lot of people are unhappy with the vampire overhaul and I would love it even more if they would consider some of these ideas as ways to improve upon what they started.
I doubt they will actually do anything about Vampire for years, but I can hope and dream.
Please, if you feel strongly about Vampire gameplay add your constructive ideas to the thread and lets see if we can get ZOS’ attention here!
After playing with the Vampire changes for a while on the PTS and now on live I would like to offer my suggestions on what could be done to make what feels like an incomplete and rushed overhaul into a complete kit.
I am aware that the Vampire skill line, like Werewolf, is meant to be an additional toy that adds flavor without becoming seen as Best In Slot that everybody must use in order to feel competitive.
At the same time, the skill line needs to be fun to use and offer abilities that provide the fantasy of being a vampire.
With this in mind I believe that my ideas below may help ZOS complete what feels like an incomplete but well intentioned overhaul.
First off, we need to dial in what a Vampire is conceptually.
Without writing a novel covering all the various vampire lore from around the world, let’s instead take a few common themes.
Ultimately, vampires are supernatural predators that drain blood / life energy from prey to sustain their undead immortality.
Broadly they are said to possess great physical strength, the ability to move faster than the eye can see, they are cunning and stealthy and they have the ability to manipulate the minds of their victims in order to facilitate attack or retreat.
Vampiric Blood Magic as a concept should sacrifice the vampire’s own blood for a good reason only. That reason should be in service of elevating the function and power of his own abilities and increasing the return of blood / life force from his victim, otherwise there is no point in sacrificing the resource most precious to the vampire ie. Blood.
Since ESO does not offer much in the way of political intrigue or the ability to play as a seductive vampire, we need to look at the above concepts from the point of view of a combat centric game.
I am going to suggest changes to certain abilities below. I am not going to talk about abilities or passives that I think are fine as they stand. I am going to address each ability below with the concepts touched on above in mind, namely Strength, Speed, Stealth and Manipulation.
Abilities
Eviscerate
The default ability should cost health to cast but should also drain life from the victim as a percentage of damage done. This is classic vampire, the life draining touch.
The melee morph should function as above but scale its damage with missing health, similar to how it functions now with the addition of a life drain.
The magicka morph should be a ranged ability that draws life force from the target from range, but to a lesser extent than the melee version. Less risk, less reward. This would in effect replace Vampiric Drain which is in itself a lackluster ability that can and should be replaced with something more interesting.
Blood Frenzy Augment - Increase range and give melee versions a short range leap / pounce gap closer of like 10 meters.
Blood Frenzy
This ability confounds me. I love it conceptually and hate it in function.
The concept of the vampire burning their own blood to enhance their combat prowess is compelling and lots of other games contain abilities like this.
The execution however strikes me as clunky and fairly uninteresting.
I do not have a clear picture in my mind of exactly what this ability should do in order to be balanced while also fulfilling the above concepts of what a vampire is.
Here are some of my various ideas of what this ability could do either as a toggle or a single click buff with a duration.
Reduces the Non-Vampire ability cost penalty for a duration.
Improve the Vampire ability cost reduction for a duration.
Improves Life-drain return / healing done / healing taken for a duration
Gives a movement speed buff for a duration that is useful for combat, unlike Elusive mist.
Provides a damage buff that increases to a certain value cap (such as 150% weapon / spell damage) as a percentage of damage done per stack over a duration. This is similar to how Simmering Frenzy works now, but would provide a definite max buff with less risk to the user.
Augments other vampire abilities with a secondary effect while active. I have noted these possible augments below the ability they affect.
Vampiric Drain
This ability is just simply lackluster and can and should be removed.
This slot could be replaced with a much more interesting ability such as a much requested gap closer or an AoE ability.
One possibility that I particularly like is turning into bats.
Vampire Bats
The vampire summons a swarm of bats that attack a target dealing damage over time. A portion of the damage dealt is returned as healing to the vampire with each tick of damage. While the ability is active the ability can be activated a second time. Doing so turns the vampire into a cloud of bats and teleports them behind the selected target.
Or
The vampire turns into a swarm of bats and flies to a selected enemy or location (ground aoe targeting if no enemy selected). All enemies at that location are attacked by a swarm of bats as the vampire reforms at that location. The bats deal damage over time for a duration and the vampire heals for a portion of the damage dealt with each tick.
Morphs. Increase the range, area and / or duration of the ability.
Blood Frenzy Augment - leave a swarm of bats at the location you left that deal aoe. An enemy can only have a max of 2 stacks of bats so you can’t just spam bats for crazy aoe stacks.
Mesmerize
In pve the CC duration should be much longer like 12 seconds or cause affected targets to drop the vampire from their agro tables.
This would allow vamps to run past encounters as many will currently use invisi-run to do, but will actually require some interaction and choice on the part of the player.
I am unsure what else this ability could or should do.
Given that in pve most monsters are not dangerous enough to bother using CC against and the monsters that are dangerous enough to need CC used against them are usually bosses and thus immune to CC.
Therefore it seems to me that there really isn’t much use for CC outside of pvp. Given that, CC should have alternate utility in pve.
It might be cool to be able to cast Mesmerize on civilians in order to be able to feed from them without killing them and without incurring a bounty.
Mist Form
This ability is an excellent escape or overland mobility tool.
It would be cool to provide a choice between combat utility and overland mobility.
Mist Form could provide invisibility and CC break mechanics but no movement bonus.
A morph into a Bat Form could provide overland mobility with a large, perhaps 40% movement bonus and immobility immunity without the invisibility.
Blood Frenzy Augment - Feeds health into Magicka in order to extend the duration of the ability toggle.
Blood Scion
It would be cool to allow the vampire to maintain the war-form as long as their health remains above a certain threshold or to add a blood or feed timer similar to Werewolf and devour.
Unnatural Movement
While the invisible sprinting is a very cool concept and I like it a lot, it seems to me that it could be so much more. It also seems that it can be used to skip or cheese an awful lot of content. I know people run past lots of content anyway and this invisi-run makes doing that easier, I would think that more creative solutions to skipping content could be formulated, such as using Mesmerize to CC a group and make them drop agro.
I think a cooler idea for Unnatural Movement would be something someone else suggested in the PTS forums (sorry, I forgot who) and that is to have this ability modify dodge roll so that you burst into a swarm of bats and dash in the direction you desire.
Perhaps it could be cheaper than dodge or not give dodge fatigue.
Vampire Stages
In most common vampire lore, hungry vampires are more feral and bestial and fed vampires are more in control of the beast within and flushed with life.
The vampire skin visuals and feeding penalties as they currently stand are backwards.
Stage 1 Vampires are hungry vampires, so they should have the most penalties and look the most feral and be the vampires that townsfolk recognize as monsters and refuse to deal with (and, what if I am wearing a full face covering helm? How do they know I am a vampire?).
Stage 4 vampires are fully fed and so should look the most human and be the most powerful given that they are full of stolen vitality.
In closing
I would love it if ZOS would acknowledge that a lot of people are unhappy with the vampire overhaul and I would love it even more if they would consider some of these ideas as ways to improve upon what they started.
I doubt they will actually do anything about Vampire for years, but I can hope and dream.
Please, if you feel strongly about Vampire gameplay add your constructive ideas to the thread and lets see if we can get ZOS’ attention here!
10
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Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
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Lots of great ideas! I actually like literally everything. Especially attaching the 'long range life drain' as an optional morph for eviscerate.
Favorite suggestion is the bat swarm dodge/gapcloser.
The only thing I'd add on is maybe if they go this far then the blood scion ult should be made more unique? Like at least give a different heavy/light attack or amplify your vampiric abilities. Swap out perfect scion too, as that morph is so uninspiring. Would even want bat swarm to be made into something else, but it is kinda fine as is I guess.
I also think the biggest thing I'd like to see ZOS acknowledge is that a LOT and I mean, enough to say the majority probably, of people do not like the vampire rework. Not because they lost supernatural recovery, but because the design for the subclass is so weird. Imagine having 1 main dmg ability and it's a melee magicka one, so that leaves some classes without the ability to use it well in PvP (like necro) because....well, they get kited easily.Edited by Noxavian on May 28, 2020 2:27AM3 -
Hexi✭✭✭✭✭Except that "common vampire lore" has nothing to do with TES. The less mortal blood you have in your system, the more Daedric you are, meaning you look less human/elfy and more monstrous, but your powers grow stronger as a result.
That being said, the new system makes no sense in this context, because NOT feeding should make you stronger, but make you weaker to sunlight and fire. The fact that we can even walk in sunlight is already stupid and breaks the lore, but they made that change in Skyrim because kiddies cried. I mean, the "sun" in TES isn't a ball of fire, it's a giant hole in the sky into Aetherius and Aetherius is BAD for Vampires, as they are creatures of Molag Bal and Oblivion.2 -
Rovaeden✭✭✭Except that "common vampire lore" in TES suggests that there are various bloodlines of vampires with various abilities.
4 -
Rovaeden✭✭✭I meant both earth lore, which TES lore draws from heavily as well as TES lore. I have been playing TES games since Daggerfall, so yes, I am entitled to refer to one, both or neither as I so chose.
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Spectral_Force✭✭✭Man, this is like PTS suggestions all over again. Loving the ideas, but we probably won't see any of this implemented anytime soon.
I remember some of my suggestions included fall damage reduction stapled onto Unnatural Movement (or Dark Stalker, either or) and adding Major Expedition to Frenzy, acting as a pseudo-gap closer since you can still sprint (which you can't do in Elusive Mist form).
I suppose an interesting thing to try would be to make Frenzy double your Stage strengths and weaknesses for the duration (48% Vampire ability cost reduction anyone?); and since its cost now keeps ramping up, you won't be able to keep it up indefinitely. Would encourage using it with Vampire abilities and discourage slotting it on a Stage 1 vamp with no other Vampire abilities just for the higher damage tooltip.
Would be amazing if ZOS did an off-cycle PTS specifically for the Vampire skill line to get it to where it needs to be. Better late than never.I've unearthed the Legendary Antiquity of Mêlée Island and all I got was this stupid T-shirt!2 -
ApostateHobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭All great ideas! Something definitely needs to be done about the mess they've made of vamps. Before vampire was just for the sustain passive, now it's just a disaster for the most part that has little use outside of niche builds. If they had put as much effort into the skill line as they put into the npc vampires we wouldn't have this problem.4 -
Rovaeden✭✭✭OMG I know! The new Vampire NPCs have some amazingly cool abilities while we... get to slap fight? and then kill ourselves by getting angry .... or are we supposed to be bleeding to death?
We are the Children of Lamae!
......slap, slap, slap, aneurysm, die.....
Worst Vampires Ever!Edited by Rovaeden on May 28, 2020 5:02AM4 -
Rovaeden✭✭✭Spectral_Force wrote: »I remember some of my suggestions included fall damage reduction stapled onto Unnatural Movement (or Dark Stalker, either or) and adding Major Expedition to Frenzy, acting as a pseudo-gap closer since you can still sprint (which you can't do in Elusive Mist form).
I suppose an interesting thing to try would be to make Frenzy double your Stage strengths and weaknesses for the duration (48% Vampire ability cost reduction anyone?); and since its cost now keeps ramping up, you won't be able to keep it up indefinitely. Would encourage using it with Vampire abilities and discourage slotting it on a Stage 1 vamp with no other Vampire abilities just for the higher damage tooltip.
Would be amazing if ZOS did an off-cycle PTS specifically for the Vampire skill line to get it to where it needs to be. Better late than never.
I like all of this.
Putting a move speed buff on Frenzy would make sense thematically.
I also like the idea of making the frenzy buff double the vampire stage strengths and weaknesses as opposed to just giving a straight up damage buff. It is a much more interesting ability that way for sure.
I think ZOS pretty much HAS TO do an off-cycle PTS for Vampire re-re-design at this point. People are pissed and have every right to be!
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ShadowHvo✭✭✭✭✭
✭I personally believe that any big changes are impossible at this point, and that the only changes we'll see are small and by the numbers.Nighren - The Shadow StrikerLeader of Bloodlines-- EU --
Want to roleplay in elder scrolls online? Check out eso-rp.com1 -
Stravokov✭✭✭✭after finially playing the class today, ill say that the vampire skills synergize well with nightblade skills. but as stated many times, Blood Frenzy and vampiric drain just are not worth being on my bar. Vampiric drain should work like Siphon for Nightblade, an HOT ranged damage bolt that helps sustain eviscerate cost. ZO$ needs to realize that channeled spells just dont work when there are better alternatives.
Blood Frenzy is just awful, i don't see any clear applications for this skill. it's basically a little more damage with the risk of getting yourself killed in PVE or PVP. It should be replaced with a Gap closer, which reminds me: why do the NPC vampires have more interesting animations/abilities?Edited by Stravokov on May 28, 2020 4:32AM5 -
Rovaeden✭✭✭after finially playing the class today, ill say that the vampire skills synergize well with nightblade skills. but as stated many times, Blood Frenzy and vampiric drain just are not worth being on my bar. Vampiric drain should work like Siphon for Nightblade, an HOT ranged damage bolt that helps sustain eviscerate cost. ZO$ needs to realize that channeled spells just dont work when there are better alternatives.
Blood Frenzy is just awful, i don't see any clear applications for this skill. it's basically a little more damage with the risk of getting yourself killed in PVE or PVP. It should be replaced with a Gap closer, which reminds me: why do the NPC vampires have more interesting animations/abilities?
Blood frenzy is really, really bad.
Its a cool idea but terribly implemented.
The whole line feels rushed and I think that ZOS is going to need to make some serious improvements to it before too long.3 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭after finially playing the class today, ill say that the vampire skills synergize well with nightblade skills. but as stated many times, Blood Frenzy and vampiric drain just are not worth being on my bar. Vampiric drain should work like Siphon for Nightblade, an HOT ranged damage bolt that helps sustain eviscerate cost. ZO$ needs to realize that channeled spells just dont work when there are better alternatives.
Blood Frenzy is just awful, i don't see any clear applications for this skill. it's basically a little more damage with the risk of getting yourself killed in PVE or PVP. It should be replaced with a Gap closer, which reminds me: why do the NPC vampires have more interesting animations/abilities?
thats the problem, the skill line really only synergizes with nightblade.
How am I, a necromancer, supposed to be able to get use out of the vampire rework? Ive been playing it all day and with no gap closer, Im really failing to see how it's useful. ):
Blood frenzy is awful tho, can agree! Same for vampire drain. I really do agree with the NPC thing and the gap closer dude.
Edited by Noxavian on May 28, 2020 5:11AM3 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭after finially playing the class today, ill say that the vampire skills synergize well with nightblade skills. but as stated many times, Blood Frenzy and vampiric drain just are not worth being on my bar. Vampiric drain should work like Siphon for Nightblade, an HOT ranged damage bolt that helps sustain eviscerate cost. ZO$ needs to realize that channeled spells just dont work when there are better alternatives.
Blood Frenzy is just awful, i don't see any clear applications for this skill. it's basically a little more damage with the risk of getting yourself killed in PVE or PVP. It should be replaced with a Gap closer, which reminds me: why do the NPC vampires have more interesting animations/abilities?
Blood frenzy is really, really bad.
Its a cool idea but terribly implemented.
The whole line feels rushed and I think that ZOS is going to need to make some serious improvements to it before too long.
can agree. Lets hope for Q3/Q43 -
Rovaeden✭✭✭
How am I, a necromancer, supposed to be able to get use out of the vampire rework? Ive been playing it all day and with no gap closer, Im really failing to see how it's useful. ):
Blood frenzy is awful tho, can agree! Same for vampire drain. I really do agree with the NPC thing and the gap closer dude.
are you playing pve or pvp?
are you mag or stam necro?
are you using beckoning armor?
Something I have found with my MagNecro is I really dont need to close the gap. I can pretty much stand in fire and not die while my Skeletal Arcanist and Stalking Blastbones beat up mobs, my Spirit Guardian and Renewing Undeath Keep me alive and my Beckoning Armor pulls ranged into the Avid Boneyard I am standing sill in the middle of so that they can enjoy a quick death from any of the above or a Ricochet Skull to the face.
I don't need to move. I just stand there, corpses all around me and stuff keeps dying.
0 -
Rovaeden✭✭✭though, I suppose your question was about how vampire synergizes with Necro. I have not found a way either. My build is tight already. None of the vampire abilities are better than what I already have slotted.
While I had some fun with Simmering Frenzy on the PTS, getting to a max stack of like 20 for around 200% increased spell damage bonus and melting a world boss, it is not sustainable or something I really want to bother with. It is just too easy to screw up and die.
I don't want vampire to be BIS and I dont want it to be OP.
I do want it to be a hell of a lot better than it is now, hence my starting this thread hoping the community will come up with ideas and ZOS will, for once, listen and take action in a direction we want for once!
4 -
ApostateHobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭after finially playing the class today, ill say that the vampire skills synergize well with nightblade skills. but as stated many times, Blood Frenzy and vampiric drain just are not worth being on my bar. Vampiric drain should work like Siphon for Nightblade, an HOT ranged damage bolt that helps sustain eviscerate cost. ZO$ needs to realize that channeled spells just dont work when there are better alternatives.
Blood Frenzy is just awful, i don't see any clear applications for this skill. it's basically a little more damage with the risk of getting yourself killed in PVE or PVP. It should be replaced with a Gap closer, which reminds me: why do the NPC vampires have more interesting animations/abilities?
Blood frenzy is really, really bad.
Its a cool idea but terribly implemented.
The whole line feels rushed and I think that ZOS is going to need to make some serious improvements to it before too long.
100% this. Interesting ideas for skills overall, but poorly executed. Really hope they make improvements because this sad hodgepodge of a skill line is super disappointing, especially since it's supposed to be THE VAMPIRE chapter.1 -
ZaroktheImmortal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Except that "common vampire lore" has nothing to do with TES. The less mortal blood you have in your system, the more Daedric you are, meaning you look less human/elfy and more monstrous, but your powers grow stronger as a result.
That being said, the new system makes no sense in this context, because NOT feeding should make you stronger, but make you weaker to sunlight and fire. The fact that we can even walk in sunlight is already stupid and breaks the lore, but they made that change in Skyrim because kiddies cried. I mean, the "sun" in TES isn't a ball of fire, it's a giant hole in the sky into Aetherius and Aetherius is BAD for Vampires, as they are creatures of Molag Bal and Oblivion.
"the fact we can walk in sunlight is stupid" can you even imagine what the game would be like if we couldn't? Like in a single player game you can pass time to avoid sunlight. This is an MMO. Imagine the game being literally unplayable depending on when you log on? Would anyone bother playing vampires? I honestly couldn't care if it breaks lore I wouldn't even bother with vampires if we couldn't go in sunlight cause unless they make the game permanent night then it would be unplayable most of the time.4 -
ZaroktheImmortal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Honestly I get tired of people complaining about oh this breaks lore. Thinking more on if it fits lore to 'is this fun'. At the end of the day it's a game and the most important thing for me is that it's enjoyable to play. And playing a character who can't do anything a good portion of the time is not enjoyable.1 -
Spectral_Force✭✭✭I don't want vampire to be BIS and I dont want it to be OP.
I do want it to be a hell of a lot better than it is now, hence my starting this thread hoping the community will come up with ideas and ZOS will, for once, listen and take action in a direction we want for once!
I think this is a very important distinction to make.
People who complain about the Vampire skill line now (as well as people who complained back during the PTS cycle) don't do so because it doesn't allow you to solo vet hardcore trials. We complain because it's bland and unimaginative, it wants to shoehorn you into using exclusively Vampire skills despite it not being a full toolkit (which makes people question whether stage 4 actually is more powerful or not), and some skill costs are too high because they were balanced around the initial cost reductions (scaling from 10% to 40%).I've unearthed the Legendary Antiquity of Mêlée Island and all I got was this stupid T-shirt!5 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Spectral_Force wrote: »I don't want vampire to be BIS and I dont want it to be OP.
I do want it to be a hell of a lot better than it is now, hence my starting this thread hoping the community will come up with ideas and ZOS will, for once, listen and take action in a direction we want for once!
I think this is a very important distinction to make.
People who complain about the Vampire skill line now (as well as people who complained back during the PTS cycle) don't do so because it doesn't allow you to solo vet hardcore trials. We complain because it's bland and unimaginative, it wants to shoehorn you into using exclusively Vampire skills despite it not being a full toolkit (which makes people question whether stage 4 actually is more powerful or not), and some skill costs are too high because they were balanced around the initial cost reductions (scaling from 10% to 40%).
Exactly! This is what I think people dont get. We just want the skill line to be more creative. Not OP, just more in line with...well, vampires.6 -
Mortiis13✭✭✭✭after finially playing the class today, ill say that the vampire skills synergize well with nightblade skills. but as stated many times, Blood Frenzy and vampiric drain just are not worth being on my bar. Vampiric drain should work like Siphon for Nightblade, an HOT ranged damage bolt that helps sustain eviscerate cost. ZO$ needs to realize that channeled spells just dont work when there are better alternatives.
Blood Frenzy is just awful, i don't see any clear applications for this skill. it's basically a little more damage with the risk of getting yourself killed in PVE or PVP. It should be replaced with a Gap closer, which reminds me: why do the NPC vampires have more interesting animations/abilities?
Channel would be okay if it was 1 sec but remains its current power. This way it could be an an viable ooohhhh *** burst heal. Also it would be a semi like range jabs for those vampire that dislike slapping mobs with their staff...0 -
Hexi✭✭✭✭✭ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »Honestly I get tired of people complaining about oh this breaks lore. Thinking more on if it fits lore to 'is this fun'. At the end of the day it's a game and the most important thing for me is that it's enjoyable to play. And playing a character who can't do anything a good portion of the time is not enjoyable.
And I value internal consistency more than gameplay mehcanics. Why is your opinion more important than mine?0 -
drakthir✭✭✭Yes , definately a ranged morph for eviscerate.
Remove blood scion transform, i want to be a basic vampire1 -
ApostateHobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Spectral_Force wrote: »I don't want vampire to be BIS and I dont want it to be OP.
I do want it to be a hell of a lot better than it is now, hence my starting this thread hoping the community will come up with ideas and ZOS will, for once, listen and take action in a direction we want for once!
I think this is a very important distinction to make.
People who complain about the Vampire skill line now (as well as people who complained back during the PTS cycle) don't do so because it doesn't allow you to solo vet hardcore trials. We complain because it's bland and unimaginative, it wants to shoehorn you into using exclusively Vampire skills despite it not being a full toolkit (which makes people question whether stage 4 actually is more powerful or not), and some skill costs are too high because they were balanced around the initial cost reductions (scaling from 10% to 40%).
Thank you that is exactly it! I just want the skill line to actually be useful as well as fun to use, not some overly op skill line to make you the ultimate lifeform or something. As it is now it's not really worth being at higher stages, and the skills are pretty blah in every possible way.2 -
Rovaeden✭✭✭Spectral_Force wrote: »I don't want vampire to be BIS and I dont want it to be OP.
I do want it to be a hell of a lot better than it is now, hence my starting this thread hoping the community will come up with ideas and ZOS will, for once, listen and take action in a direction we want for once!
I think this is a very important distinction to make.
People who complain about the Vampire skill line now (as well as people who complained back during the PTS cycle) don't do so because it doesn't allow you to solo vet hardcore trials. We complain because it's bland and unimaginative, it wants to shoehorn you into using exclusively Vampire skills despite it not being a full toolkit (which makes people question whether stage 4 actually is more powerful or not), and some skill costs are too high because they were balanced around the initial cost reductions (scaling from 10% to 40%).
I am in full agreement with all of you guys saying that we all want a vampire toolkit that is "Vampire" before it is powerful.
I would honestly be happier with a vampire toolkit that was 100% utility and did absolutely nothing to adjust damage values either dealt or taken than I am with the current overhaul.
There is so much cool potential for a utility toolkit that offered stuff like
Mobility / Movement speed / dash / dodge buffs
CC
CC Breaks
Fall Damage Reduction
Aggro Drops
Gap Closers
Teleports
Multiple Feeding interactions - a "persuade or intimidate" function to use on civilians to feed without a bounty
Then you could add combat abilities that do not directly affect damage done such as life drains that heal more than they do damage.
Maybe this is the answer.
Completely detach Vampire from combat / dps numbers.
Thoughts?Edited by Rovaeden on May 28, 2020 4:20PM1 -
XomRhoK✭✭✭✭✭I am also don't like current version of vampire skills revamp, and overall i agree with direction of your suggestions, but not with all of them.
Cost health and recover health in one skill doesn't make much sence. Overall it will end up with free to use skill with lowered damaged.A Proper Vampire Overhaul
Eviscerate
The default ability should cost health to cast but should also drain life from the victim as a percentage of damage done. This is classic vampire, the life draining touch.
I am agree, that in current form Vampiric Drain is not very usefull, and looks bad, but overall it's an pretty thematic vampire ability and it feels right, you slowly drain life and power from the enemy. While skills like Strife or Siphoning Strike just use and forget, they don't give that vampiric feel, in my opinion. So i'd prefer buffed Vampiric Drain, they can buff damage to compensate skipping LA and enchant procs, can make skill uninterraptable if your health lower than 50% etc.Vampiric Drain
This ability is just simply lackluster and can and should be removed.
This slot could be replaced with a much more interesting ability such as a much requested gap closer or an AoE ability.
One possibility that I particularly like is turning into bats.
My point of view on vampire skills and mechanics here, more of an overhaul rather than attempt to fix current version of skills. But hope someone will find it usefull or at least fun to read.Please, if you feel strongly about Vampire gameplay add your constructive ideas to the thread and lets see if we can get ZOS’ attention here!
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Rovaeden✭✭✭Cost health and recover health in one skill doesn't make much sence. Overall it will end up with free to use skill with lowered damaged.
That is how the nightblade class heal works. Costs Health and then gives a HoT
My idea behind that Eviscerate change would be that the lower your health is, the greater the damage and the greater the heal, so the heal would scale. Yeah, it would be a basically free spammable if it healed 100% of the cost of the ability so it should not do that. Instead it could provide a heal over time rather than a direct heal.
Point is, there are lots of ways to make it work if the devs believe that a spammable is required. I do not believe that Vampire even needs to be a combat kit at all, but that is another discussion.
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ZaroktheImmortal✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »Honestly I get tired of people complaining about oh this breaks lore. Thinking more on if it fits lore to 'is this fun'. At the end of the day it's a game and the most important thing for me is that it's enjoyable to play. And playing a character who can't do anything a good portion of the time is not enjoyable.
And I value internal consistency more than gameplay mehcanics. Why is your opinion more important than mine?
So all vampire players should have to not be able to play the game a good portion of the time cause it 'breaks lore' for you? Why should everyone who plays vampires in the game have to their game pretty much unplayable to appease you? At that point few if any would bother playing a vampire simply because they'd be unable to play the game. You want a game where you can't go out in the sun without taking damage? Play Morrowind. This is an MMO where we literally cannot just pick what time of day it is.3