Stamcro is wildly overtuned

zDan

I know what you're thinking, "not another damn nerf so and so thread" but this is deserved, and let's back it up with straight facts.
If you've ever played PvP as of recent and fought what you know is an average to below average player, then ended up stalemating them or even dying to them in some circumstances, then they're most likely on a stamcro. Let's break down what makes this carry class so insanely strong in PvP...

The first thing you will most likely notice is their sheer tankiness. Having the 10% mitigation from spirit mender on top of slotting undo for minor protection and even throwing on potentates back bar will make them feel almost invincible. In my opinion that comes down to % mitigation being way too strong and accessible, but that's a story for another day.

The healing passives they get also adds to their tankiness... 8% when there is a negative effect on you, 2% for every bone tyrant ability, but the main culprits come down to the overtuned skills they possess. Let's start off with mortal coil. It is essentially a FREE vigor, yes it costs nothing. Which also restores stamina and gives 3% healing while slotted. It speaks for itself really. Next there is spirit mender which I mentioned before, not only is it an entire 5 piece swift, it also gives a heal over time. Deaden pain is next which is also FREE and gives major protection, the most broken buff in the game. The class also possesses a purge, which I don't mind but it is something to note. Pair all of this with s&b or brp dw and you have a truly, close to unkillable class.

Next up is their damage output, which mainly only comes down to one thing... Blastbones. While I'm all for hard hitting burst combo abilities, having an aoe major defile that can tooltip for over 20k is insanely ubsurd. No I do not want this skill gutted but when it comes down to it, major defile is way too strong of a debuff to be putting on such a hard hitting ability. Yeah healing is way too strong currently so you can argue that, but really it is the amount of off heals healers can stack on people which is the problem. Also a story for another day.

So overall, YES stamcro is insanely overperforming in the current PvP meta, a blind man could see that. But don't crucify me because I am asking for nerfs. I'm all for class balance and do not want to see something strong be gutted into oblivion like ZOS normally do. I also don't run the numbers or do spreadsheets etc. I'm simply speaking from a pure 5+ year PvP experience and playing every class inside and out. I'm sure many of you agree but this is the forums and god knows what the responses are going to be like.

FirmamentOfStars

You forgot to mention, that blastbones with guaranteed major defile also can proc minor defile on top of that. Maybe changing the major to minor defile would be a decent start, since we already get „permadefiled“ next patch with the battle spirit healing reduction (nobody asked for).

technohic

I'm willing to see what ot looks like when abilities work reliably and after this healing nerf. Pretty much agree and have said from the beginning of update 25 that once abilities actually start working, we can properly focus on stamcro with BRP DW. At least BRP is getting adjusted.

FirmamentOfStars

technohic wrote: »

I'm willing to see what ot looks like when abilities work reliably and after this healing nerf. Pretty much agree and have said from the beginning of update 25 that once abilities actually start working, we can properly focus on stamcro with BRP DW. At least BRP is getting adjusted.

You mean its a good adjustement, if one skill with an arena weapon can provide two 5th piece set boni (essence thief and buffer of the swift) for its whole duration when played clever?

starlizard70ub17_ESO

I agree, stamcro, and some other classes need work. But I'd prefer waiting until a month or so after Greymor goes live before making major changes to any skill line. And as @technohic said above, it doesn't matter what skills do if you can't reply on them to work during PvP or other game play.

technohic

SavageChain wrote: »

show previous quotes

technohic wrote: »

I'm willing to see what ot looks like when abilities work reliably and after this healing nerf. Pretty much agree and have said from the beginning of update 25 that once abilities actually start working, we can properly focus on stamcro with BRP DW. At least BRP is getting adjusted.

You mean its a good adjustement, if one skill with an arena weapon can provide two 5th piece set boni (essence thief and buffer of the swift) for its whole duration when played clever?

It's worth watching.

BRP Compared to before of a full major protection up when needed most, it was the peaks that allowed them to heal to full. I realize it will be a more consistent resist but being able to predict burst and eat it easily in a burst meta was huge.

That actually played into mortal coil as it tethers them to an area. Giving it a huge radius gave them a lot to work with though so LOS, or just BRP while the heal comes pouring in

WoppaBoem

I agree, I saw a post with the comment, without a nerf to stamnecro ZOS can beter just delete all other classes and its very true. They are unhealthy for PVP. They need adjusting.

Fur_like_snow

It’s P2W what do you expect. Of course the crown store classes are gonna be over tuned.

Zabulus

Of course Stamcro is wildly overtuned !
They need to make cash !

BaiterOfZergs

They’re pretty much stam dks on steroids except they are really noob friendly. It’s the new noob class.

Should be fun seeing perma defile with the nerf to healing next update. Guess people can counter it with ward of Cyrodiil?

WoppaBoem

I thought I cared about the major defile, but it is class identity, perhaps lowering major defile same as lowering major protection is a much better fix that adjusting many skills.

It is the tankiness, plus sustain, plus heals that bugs me. They can face tank so much, that is what I think unhealthy. People expecting to survive things they really shouldn't.

Waffennacht

You can face tank with just about any class.

Can you face tank and kill? Probably seeing as most players are mediocre at best.

Truth be told, all Stam classes can roll with HoTs, Burst heals, protection, and expedition

WoppaBoem

Waffennacht wrote: »

You can face tank with just about any class.

Can you face tank and kill? Probably seeing as most players are mediocre at best.

Truth be told, all Stam classes can roll with HoTs, Burst heals, protection, and expedition

Face tank and kill easy, you have 3 hots that are so easy to use, tether heals plus sustain, spirit mender mitigation plus heals plus sustain 200+ recovery, Vigor, then add 8%+ healing, then add increase crit heals max 20% plus all healing abilities, passive healing received passive. This on a bar together with atleast minor protect, major evasion, close or well over 30.000 resist. The above is no effort, and not comprimise on damage, no the more damage you can do the better the above works as heals scale of damage potential.

You don't get the above on any other class with so much ease.

Kadoin

I want to see someone on ZOS dev team fight a top stamcro and win. I did it on my mag NB and it took over 18 minutes to kill them. I wanted to gouge my eyes out afterwards by the way.

Thanks for the great balance ZOS...

All the cards stacked in a person favor and you have to fight an uphill battle because the dev team can't understand damage reduction, damage avoidance, and healing are essentially all the same thing when it comes to the meta and manages to give all three to the class and not bat an eyelid.

It's crazy, but nothing like what we are in store for starting tomorrow.

EDIT: Forgot to mention it was a melee mag NB for added pain

EtTuBrutus

Stam crow has an outstanding kit, nothing compares except warden. The difference between stam warden and necro is the ease of skills. At this point blast bones is a guaranteed hit. There is no counterplay at all. They might as well remove the graphic to ease the server strain.

This game could never be considered competitive, so accept that the are some classes that perform better.

DoTHurts

"guaranteed hit" - now I know you are joking!

LeHarrt91

In many situations it definitely does feel like a guaranteed hit, also considering its undodgeable. Sure the skill doesn't always work, it either doesn't cast (like all skills atm) or it gets stuck or can be killed. But you cant deny that at times it spawns and insta jumps.

MartiniDaniels

I'm curious why after PBAOE standardization procedure, Noxious breath costs twice as BB, deals twice less damage and doesn't come as damage spike off-GCD during burst?
Noxious is literally, at least 2 times worse then blighted blastbones. What happened to spreadsheet balancing?

Hotdog_23

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I'm curious why after PBAOE standardization procedure, Noxious breath costs twice as BB, deals twice less damage and doesn't come as damage spike off-GCD during burst?
Noxious is literally, at least 2 times worse then blighted blastbones. What happened to spreadsheet balancing?

It’s not twice as much. They do the same damage overall in 10 seconds that is if the DOT doesn’t get purged from Noxious and Necros never us blastbones only once every 10seconds (sarcasm). For PVP I would trade the major fractures for major defile on Noxious but not in PVE.

Blighted Blastbones is 2295
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/blighted-blastbones
Noxious Breath is 2984
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/noxious-breath

The main problem of the 2 new classes (Necros and Wardens) is the short burst skill (2.5 seconds) vs the original classes longer or RNG based burst skills. Not counting any ultimate’s just regular abilities.

Mag Sorcerer - Crystal Fragments, RNG based (has a 35% chance of causing your next Crystal Fragments to be instant, deal 33% more damage, and cost 50% less Magicka)

Stam Sorcerer – Can’t use frags and has Bound Armaments which doesn’t work to well in PVP at least for me it doesn’t, not really a burst. Maybe if all 4 daggers went off at the same times and not every 0.3 seconds.

Nigthblades have Grim focus but again you must build them up with 5 light attacks so not really a burst on demand.

Templars have Backlash but the 6 second window is to long for PVP burst compared to the 2.5 seconds for Wardens and Necros plus you have to do damage to build up the burst form the skill.

DK’s – No burst skill but the DOT class that only has 3 stronger DOTs vs Necro who has all 15% stronger on all DOT’s.

olsborg

Dont forget it has the best ultimate currently in the game. Colossus.

MartiniDaniels

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

show previous quotes

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I'm curious why after PBAOE standardization procedure, Noxious breath costs twice as BB, deals twice less damage and doesn't come as damage spike off-GCD during burst?
Noxious is literally, at least 2 times worse then blighted blastbones. What happened to spreadsheet balancing?

It’s not twice as much. They do the same damage overall in 10 seconds that is if the DOT doesn’t get purged from Noxious and Necros never us blastbones only once every 10seconds (sarcasm). For PVP I would trade the major fractures for major defile on Noxious but not in PVE.

Blighted Blastbones is 2295
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/blighted-blastbones
Noxious Breath is 2984
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/noxious-breath

The main problem of the 2 new classes (Necros and Wardens) is the short burst skill (2.5 seconds) vs the original classes longer or RNG based burst skills. Not counting any ultimate’s just regular abilities.

Mag Sorcerer - Crystal Fragments, RNG based (has a 35% chance of causing your next Crystal Fragments to be instant, deal 33% more damage, and cost 50% less Magicka)

Stam Sorcerer – Can’t use frags and has Bound Armaments which doesn’t work to well in PVP at least for me it doesn’t, not really a burst. Maybe if all 4 daggers went off at the same times and not every 0.3 seconds.

Nigthblades have Grim focus but again you must build them up with 5 light attacks so not really a burst on demand.

Templars have Backlash but the 6 second window is to long for PVP burst compared to the 2.5 seconds for Wardens and Necros plus you have to do damage to build up the burst form the skill.

DK’s – No burst skill but the DOT class that only has 3 stronger DOTs vs Necro who has all 15% stronger on all DOT’s.

Yes, but first they nerfed all dots and gutted Noxious as some semi-aoe, semi-dot, semi-spammable. And after that they buffed all aoe dots, but forgot about Nox. Also they included helping hands (for stamfist) and poison cost reduction in their equation, but didn't included cost decrease on second cast of blast bones.
This is plain double standards, and DK would be utter under-powered class if not for leaps.

It's pretty simple:
DK carried by Leap
Sorc by Streak
Templar by Jabs
Nightblade by Cloak (when opponents don't know about detect pot existence or can't sustain w/o tri-pot)

Warden and Necro are carried by the whole list of things.
Not that I care much with all the lag, and I certainly don't call for nerfs, but original 4 classes might use some buffs to keep up with DLC ones.

And Noxious vs Blastbones look like glaring example of that all the spreadsheet balancing is just a myth. We have shalks, blastbones and jabs - all aoe abilities which have increased damage to compensate for major evasion. Noxious damage is not only distributed between 14 (lol) seconds, but that damage was not adjusted for mentioned 25%. Noxious was amazing in U23. What they did do it in U24....

technohic

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

show previous quotes

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I'm curious why after PBAOE standardization procedure, Noxious breath costs twice as BB, deals twice less damage and doesn't come as damage spike off-GCD during burst?
Noxious is literally, at least 2 times worse then blighted blastbones. What happened to spreadsheet balancing?

It’s not twice as much. They do the same damage overall in 10 seconds that is if the DOT doesn’t get purged from Noxious and Necros never us blastbones only once every 10seconds (sarcasm). For PVP I would trade the major fractures for major defile on Noxious but not in PVE.

Blighted Blastbones is 2295
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/blighted-blastbones
Noxious Breath is 2984
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/noxious-breath

The main problem of the 2 new classes (Necros and Wardens) is the short burst skill (2.5 seconds) vs the original classes longer or RNG based burst skills. Not counting any ultimate’s just regular abilities.

Mag Sorcerer - Crystal Fragments, RNG based (has a 35% chance of causing your next Crystal Fragments to be instant, deal 33% more damage, and cost 50% less Magicka)

Stam Sorcerer – Can’t use frags and has Bound Armaments which doesn’t work to well in PVP at least for me it doesn’t, not really a burst. Maybe if all 4 daggers went off at the same times and not every 0.3 seconds.

Nigthblades have Grim focus but again you must build them up with 5 light attacks so not really a burst on demand.

Templars have Backlash but the 6 second window is to long for PVP burst compared to the 2.5 seconds for Wardens and Necros plus you have to do damage to build up the burst form the skill.

DK’s – No burst skill but the DOT class that only has 3 stronger DOTs vs Necro who has all 15% stronger on all DOT’s.

Yes, but first they nerfed all dots and gutted Noxious as some semi-aoe, semi-dot, semi-spammable. And after that they buffed all aoe dots, but forgot about Nox. Also they included helping hands (for stamfist) and poison cost reduction in their equation, but didn't included cost decrease on second cast of blast bones.
This is plain double standards, and DK would be utter under-powered class if not for leaps.

It's pretty simple:
DK carried by Leap
Sorc by Streak
Templar by Jabs
Nightblade by Cloak (when opponents don't know about detect pot existence or can't sustain w/o tri-pot)

Warden and Necro are carried by the whole list of things.
Not that I care much with all the lag, and I certainly don't call for nerfs, but original 4 classes might use some buffs to keep up with DLC ones.

And Noxious vs Blastbones look like glaring example of that all the spreadsheet balancing is just a myth. We have shalks, blastbones and jabs - all aoe abilities which have increased damage to compensate for major evasion. Noxious damage is not only distributed between 14 (lol) seconds, but that damage was not adjusted for mentioned 25%. Noxious was amazing in U23. What they did do it in U24....

Is noxious like some AOE DOTs where only the initial hit is mitigated as AOE, but the DOT is then treated as single target if it's a stick to target DOT?

MartiniDaniels

technohic wrote: »

show previous quotes

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I'm curious why after PBAOE standardization procedure, Noxious breath costs twice as BB, deals twice less damage and doesn't come as damage spike off-GCD during burst?
Noxious is literally, at least 2 times worse then blighted blastbones. What happened to spreadsheet balancing?

It’s not twice as much. They do the same damage overall in 10 seconds that is if the DOT doesn’t get purged from Noxious and Necros never us blastbones only once every 10seconds (sarcasm). For PVP I would trade the major fractures for major defile on Noxious but not in PVE.

Blighted Blastbones is 2295
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/blighted-blastbones
Noxious Breath is 2984
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/noxious-breath

The main problem of the 2 new classes (Necros and Wardens) is the short burst skill (2.5 seconds) vs the original classes longer or RNG based burst skills. Not counting any ultimate’s just regular abilities.

Mag Sorcerer - Crystal Fragments, RNG based (has a 35% chance of causing your next Crystal Fragments to be instant, deal 33% more damage, and cost 50% less Magicka)

Stam Sorcerer – Can’t use frags and has Bound Armaments which doesn’t work to well in PVP at least for me it doesn’t, not really a burst. Maybe if all 4 daggers went off at the same times and not every 0.3 seconds.

Nigthblades have Grim focus but again you must build them up with 5 light attacks so not really a burst on demand.

Templars have Backlash but the 6 second window is to long for PVP burst compared to the 2.5 seconds for Wardens and Necros plus you have to do damage to build up the burst form the skill.

DK’s – No burst skill but the DOT class that only has 3 stronger DOTs vs Necro who has all 15% stronger on all DOT’s.

Yes, but first they nerfed all dots and gutted Noxious as some semi-aoe, semi-dot, semi-spammable. And after that they buffed all aoe dots, but forgot about Nox. Also they included helping hands (for stamfist) and poison cost reduction in their equation, but didn't included cost decrease on second cast of blast bones.
This is plain double standards, and DK would be utter under-powered class if not for leaps.

It's pretty simple:
DK carried by Leap
Sorc by Streak
Templar by Jabs
Nightblade by Cloak (when opponents don't know about detect pot existence or can't sustain w/o tri-pot)

Warden and Necro are carried by the whole list of things.
Not that I care much with all the lag, and I certainly don't call for nerfs, but original 4 classes might use some buffs to keep up with DLC ones.

And Noxious vs Blastbones look like glaring example of that all the spreadsheet balancing is just a myth. We have shalks, blastbones and jabs - all aoe abilities which have increased damage to compensate for major evasion. Noxious damage is not only distributed between 14 (lol) seconds, but that damage was not adjusted for mentioned 25%. Noxious was amazing in U23. What they did do it in U24....

Is noxious like some AOE DOTs where only the initial hit is mitigated as AOE, but the DOT is then treated as single target if it's a stick to target DOT?

That "DOT" part is laughable. In no-CP it is something like 14k over 14 seconds (realistic tooltip, including DK's dot passive +33%). So even in full penetration scenario, after battle spirit it is 1k tick once in 2 seconds. In practice obviously there will be a stockpile of protection buffs... but ok, I'm not saying ability is useless - it grants aoe major fracture + acts as poor aoe spammable. This is one of the few of DK abilities worth slotting. But in comparison to blastbones or shalks it is just lol.

Sneakers

Sounds like a whine thread.

Stamcro isnt more overtuned then Stamden, Magden, Magplar, Stamplar..all are very powerful "OPed" classes that sticks out.

A necro adding:

Vigor
Mortal coil (nowhere near Vigor healing)
Spirit mender 10% mit (heals for around 2200 before Cyro cuts healing 50%)
Pisjic 8% mit
Shield ulti
BRP daggers/deaded pain
Purge

Is extremely defensive and really can only kill average pleb players who can't toe to toe vs 4500 wep dmg since this build won't go above that.

My own necro is built as a glass cannon with 8k wep damage and can do a lot of damage very quickly but I am not very tanky, I can still get comboed by wardens, templars, sorcs, NBs and so on.

Why you ask, why not build iwin insta kill tank necro? Answer is if you go down that route you cannot kill the other OPed classes like stamden, magden, templars and DKs who will out damage you and out sustain you.

Atm there is a fairly good balance between Stamnecro - Stamden - Stamplar - StamDK - StamNB - Magden - Magsorc (mag sorc cannot burst down the top 1% of the above classes but they can also be unkillable to these classes and draw it 100% of the time).

My buffed build walks around with 8k wep dmg using Kena:

Exec/Dizzy/BB/flexspot/rally - dawnbreaker 300 wep dmg
deadly cloak/vigor/mortal coil/spirit mender/resists - psijic/collosus/

2650 stamina recovery, if I ran werewolf ulti it be 3000+

7200 wep dmg if I use BS giving me 29k resists

As I said top wardens smack me, top templars smack me, mags sorcs are hard/draw, stam NBs can if im not careful '1 shot me', magdens out damage me with perma frost running (perma up, always redic ulti)

PvPing in a burst meta is all about having access to high mitigation, high burst damage and CC ( knockdowns, fears to get animation glitches who people cant break out of) and large OH *** heals.

All these classes function similar with their timed burst abilities, necro is no special snowflake at all.

If you don't grasp these similarities and mechanics you have not read the ESO meta and your not understanding the current gameplay. Sad face.

Stamden for example has many class characteristics that lets it build for more potential damage then a necromancer can (this is fact), while not loosing out on mitigation compared to a necro who doesn't slot psijic/totem/turn evil and still have larger burst healing capability and access to perma frost on backback to stand toe to toe longer and create higher periods of pressure to setup a burst attempt.

A tidbit:

When I run stamina bomber on my necro using golden harmony and graveyard tooltip of 23800 * 105%*0.5 I have hit people for 17k dmg but top 1%ers take like 5k-7k damage and they don't even shrug. They are unkillable.

Thats me burst comboing: Dizzy (set off balance 10% dmg) BB lands, dawnbreaker into graveyard into 2nd dizzy into exec. 1%er templars LOL at this combo while in their rune. They take 0 dmg. Wardens just mushroom and perma frost and then push you crazy hard for 12s.

Jejejej necro op etc...

Skander

It's a payed class, it will always be overtuned

Sneakers

WoppaBoem wrote: »

I thought I cared about the major defile, but it is class identity, perhaps lowering major defile same as lowering major protection is a much better fix that adjusting many skills.

It is the tankiness, plus sustain, plus heals that bugs me. They can face tank so much, that is what I think unhealthy. People expecting to survive things they really shouldn't.

But how is this different to any above average templar/warden/NB tank/DK? Really I see this every day 15 people on one warden and he just lols them then waits for burst window and smacks people in 3 hits.

Only necro doing this??

Gerrrrrraaaaaa 'ere man...

Ramber

The necros are pay for play which is why they are so OP and i haven't made 1 of them and my dps life is just fine.

wheem_ESO

Skander wrote: »

It's a payed class, it will always be overtuned

By that logic, Magicka Necromancer shouldn't be a terrible class with nothing relevant beyond a telegraphed 1-shot gimmick.

Rake

yes

BaiterOfZergs

Stamcros shouldn’t be losing to anyone in a 1v1, stalemate sure but lose no. Chances are if someone killed you while you were using a stamcro then they’re just better or you don’t know how to play the class.

I also want to note that personal skill isn’t necessarily an indicator of where a class is. A good player can make a terrible class look good and a bad player can make a good class look mediocre.

Only class that really compares overall is stamden. Stamplar is good offensively but just okay defensively. Magplar is fine but nothing special. Stam dk is tanky & reliant on leap. Magdk is versatile but harder to master. Magblade is a tough class to play , similar to magdk. Has some decent niche builds and still a good dueling class but aren’t a threat in most scenarios. Stamnb still has good offense but is heavily reliant on cloak and mobility for defense.

Stam sorc ? Where do we even begin with them , just an okay class who also relies on mobility. Mag sorc could possibly be thrown in with stamcro since they have everything. Magden is really good at being a nuisance but who really dies to the average magden ? I’m not even going to start with magcro.

montiferus

It is an overturned class by such an obvious margin that it makes me question the skill of those who say it is not.

You don't even need thumbs to play the class.