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Vampire is Backwards

merpins
merpins
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I posted this in another forum chat, and thought I'd bring it up to the greater community as a whole:

I think the whole of vampire is backwards.

A vampire in Elder Scrolls is supposed to be physically stronger when in lower stages but stronger in all other aspects when sated. Right now it's the opposite, so here's how I would change it:

1. the extra fire damage you take is 20% regardless of your stage, but you take an additional 10% when at stage 1. This shows that you are not sated, and thus are more vulnerable.
2. Health recovery is reversed. Stage 1 is -100% / -70% / -40% / and stage 4 is -20% (instead of 10%)
3. Reverse the regular ability cost increase as well. Stage 1 is +12% / +8% / +4% / and stage 4 is 0.
4. Vampire ability cost is a bit different. Starting from stage 1 it would be a cost of +8% / +0 / -10% / and at stage 4 it would be -20%. So at stage 1 your vamp abilities cost more, stage 2 they cost the base amount, then at stages 3 and 4 they get reduced in cost but never as much as the current version.
5. Finally, the last change I'd do for base vampire. Damage. Starting from stage 1, your overall damage is increased by this: 7% / 3% / 0 / 0. This is to show the ferocity of a hungry vampire, and is a great buff with an equally great downside.

Other changes would include stage 1 vampires are attacked on sight by guards, stage 2 vampires get the current thing of NPCs not trusting you and won't let you buy or sell. Stage 3 and 4 would be fine in towns aside from casting vampire abilities.


As for Blood Frenzy, I don't like it not having a cap for both damage and damage you take, it makes it a pain to use and incentivizes players to find cheesy ways to make it last longer. I'd change Blood Frenzy (where it increases cost by 20% every second but doesn't increase the damage you deal with the skill) back to 10% every second, but cap it at 200%, meaning it can't go above costing around 4k per second. I'd make Simmering Frenzy have the cost be 20% hp every second and cap it at 200% as well, but give it 10% increased damage every second up to 100% so people can't figure cheesy ways to game more damage out of it. And finally, the other morph I'd just make a skill. It no longer toggles, but costs a flat amount of 50% of your current hp (I'd also increase the amount it gives you by a little bit), and lasts a flat 12-20 seconds when it's level 4. Costing 50% of your current hp makes it synergise with your other vampire abilities in an interesting way.
  • catnamedwill
    catnamedwill
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    Here we go again.....
  • ShadowHvo
    ShadowHvo
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    Here we go again.....

    You'll soon see that this will be an ongoing trend until they actually do good with the rework.

    I don't personally agree with the OP's suggestion, though this will just be a trend that we see all the more.
    Nighren - The Shadow Striker
    Leader of Bloodlines
    -- EU --


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  • merpins
    merpins
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    ShadowHvo wrote: »
    Here we go again.....

    You'll soon see that this will be an ongoing trend until they actually do good with the rework.

    I don't personally agree with the OP's suggestion, though this will just be a trend that we see all the more.

    My suggestion isn't fantastic, I know. But it still highlights the issue of the changes being kinda backwards in terms of what a vampire is. Vampires aren't more ferocious and evil looking when they feed, they get that way the longer they DON'T feed, which is why the new vampire seems backwards in my opinion.

    EDIT: but my suggestion also does some design principles that Zos likes to use, those being that there are benefits at both ends. You don't strictly gain benefits from being stage 4, and you don't strictly gain benefits from being stage 1. Both stages have their upsides and downsides, and the two stages in the middle are middle-ground options.
    Edited by merpins on May 25, 2020 8:12AM
  • soulferin
    soulferin
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    I don't care about numbers here but it has logic behind and that's what I really want to see with changes in eso. Zos doesn't. like logic anyway so... ;p
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    I agree about stage4. It doesn't fit fully "charged" vampire. But stage 2 is better then stage 1:
    +300 base damage for 2% cost increase and -20% health recovery and 3% fire susceptibility
    And stage 3 is better then stage 2:
    15% mitigation for another 3% cost increase and -30% health recovery, plus it nullifies fire susceptibility - 15% comparable to 13% even if those 13% have somewhat better place in mitigation formula.
  • catnamedwill
    catnamedwill
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    I agree about stage4. It doesn't fit fully "charged" vampire. But stage 2 is better then stage 1:
    +300 base damage for 2% cost increase and -20% health recovery and 3% fire susceptibility
    And stage 3 is better then stage 2:
    15% mitigation for another 3% cost increase and -30% health recovery, plus it nullifies fire susceptibility - 15% comparable to 13% even if those 13% have somewhat better place in mitigation formula.
    @MartiniDaniels
    300 base damage is tied to a passive that requires either invisibility or Mist Form. Of that, only mist form is viable to activate it. In real fights, you are not going to use Mist Form every five seconds. From what I see, outside of NB, no other class will get a reliable uptime on it.
  • Paradisius
    Paradisius
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    300 base damage is tied to a passive that requires either invisibility or Mist Form. Of that, only mist form is viable to activate it. In real fights, you are not going to use Mist Form every five seconds. From what I see, outside of NB, no other class will get a reliable uptime on it.

    Actually, Ive done a bit of testing using this kind of idea, using mist form to proc strike from shadows. I did it by doing Mistform > barswap to my front bar right after I finish placing my AOEs/DOTs. In the end I had a ~45% uptime, which I must say is pretty high and entirely usable.

    As for OPs idea, its not a bad one, would make people actively feed (Which is the devs intent) I dont agree with numbers however, particularly Vampire Cost reduction, it should be much higher even with the current PTS Vampirism. Primarily because the Vampire skills right now break even in cost with active abilities, so in your idea normal skills will cost less than Vampiric abilities at stage 4, which kind of defeats the purpose.

    That being said, numbers can be tweaked, the overall idea is pretty solid!
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    I agree about stage4. It doesn't fit fully "charged" vampire. But stage 2 is better then stage 1:
    +300 base damage for 2% cost increase and -20% health recovery and 3% fire susceptibility
    And stage 3 is better then stage 2:
    15% mitigation for another 3% cost increase and -30% health recovery, plus it nullifies fire susceptibility - 15% comparable to 13% even if those 13% have somewhat better place in mitigation formula.
    @MartiniDaniels
    300 base damage is tied to a passive that requires either invisibility or Mist Form. Of that, only mist form is viable to activate it. In real fights, you are not going to use Mist Form every five seconds. From what I see, outside of NB, no other class will get a reliable uptime on it.

    Why I can't use mist form each 6 seconds? It can be activated and then block-canceled for 1k magicka cost. You will be able to use it as magicka block + receive your damage buff each time.
    https://youtu.be/QkW5xIPNXOc?t=520
    I'm in anticipation for new stamplar build from Kristofer (mist cancelling demonstrated at 8:40)
    And I already theorycrafted nice build for stamDK with 7k WD/15k pen leaps in no-CP.
    Edited by MartiniDaniels on May 25, 2020 8:53AM
  • Iron_Blurr
    Iron_Blurr
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    ShadowHvo wrote: »
    Here we go again.....

    You'll soon see that this will be an ongoing trend until they actually do good with the rework.

    I don't personally agree with the OP's suggestion, though this will just be a trend that we see all the more.

    My suggestion isn't fantastic, I know. But it still highlights the issue of the changes being kinda backwards in terms of what a vampire is. Vampires aren't more ferocious and evil looking when they feed, they get that way the longer they DON'T feed, which is why the new vampire seems backwards in my opinion.

    EDIT: but my suggestion also does some design principles that Zos likes to use, those being that there are benefits at both ends. You don't strictly gain benefits from being stage 4, and you don't strictly gain benefits from being stage 1. Both stages have their upsides and downsides, and the two stages in the middle are middle-ground options.

    Well i think your suggestion is pretty awesome! I think the stages should progress from 1 to 4 instead of staying at stage 1 unless you feed. That just feels like a more natural progression of hunger.
  • Ranger209
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    agree
  • Temeraire507
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    Nice suggestion, that works way better with our knowledge from the other TES titles, I would add that how you look should also be reversed. Stage 1 is unsaturated with the curse being strong so you look ugly with the weird skin tone and the blueish veins all over and Stage 4 is sustained wel with blood that dampens the curse and retains most of you normal appearance (just the lighter skin colour and lightly changed eye colour here)
  • LinearParadox
    LinearParadox
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    No.

    Plain and simple no.

    This has already been discussed, explained, hashed and rehashed.
    The reason for the rework and "reversal" of passives is intentional and healthy for the game mechanics.
    Vampire doesn't need anymore buffs than it already has. It's an OPTION now, NOT a permanent passive buff that you never have to engage with the mechanic of. It's much better this way.
    And if you think it's weak, then you don't understand how to use it, play around it, engage with the playstyle and take advantage of it's strengths. That's not the fault of the rework.
    The penalties were already lessened before it was released.
    twitch.tv/linearparadox
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