Buff Lotus Flower

MartiniDaniels

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sorry what?
Warden is:
- stamden PVP - 2nd best in solo play, second only to broken stamcro
- magden PVP - awesome in group play
- warden healer - best healer
- warden tanks - rarely used in meta groups because wardens are better in healer role, but still a very good tank
- magden dps - have highest parses in latest changes
- stamden dps - yeah, this guys fell behind, but that's because you can't buff them without buffing them in PVP where they are already borderline OP.

So overall, warden is even better then necro (magcro aren't good for anything aside from some group PVP build).. and all 4 base game classes may only dream about such diversity of available BiS roles.

So while lotus flower can have some love, something should be nerfed to compensate, and I'm not sure you'll want that.

here we go.
what i don't get about comments like these, are that they assume that the class no longer has any problems because they are doing well in the current patch. and that the people who suggest changes, are also somehow automatically against any changes to other classes. nothing here has said that necro shouldn't get anything.

also. We just talked completely removing the healing from arctic blast to make it have a defensive weakness based around self healing.

That's what I'm talking about. Are you sure that everybody will happy if arctic blast will lose healing? And there will be place on bars for both (lotus flower and arctic blast)?

I think lotus flower now is equivalent of DK's molten armaments. It is nice thing to run around in casual mode, but absolutely useless for competitive content..

ESO_Nightingale

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Making Lotus Flower decent isn’t going to imbalance PvP lol. In fact the suggestion would pretty much be to make it half of a Crit Surge heal. Even with the proposed changes a lot of people wouldn’t slot it in PvP. In PvE is where it could see more use.

Not saying that Lotus is fine, I'm just wondering why you compare to crit surge instead of power surge? PS is the morph that isn't only a selfheal and has 3 times the cooldown of CS and a lower heal. Did you take that into consideration?

well, that skill heals multiple allies in an area and is based on critical damage. this is only light and heavy attacks, heals less, and with this suggestion, would only heal 2 people. seems pretty fair to me.

Not quite. It heals allies for 2550 every 3s on critical heals.
Lotus would heal yourself and 1 other for 1320 on every light attack. How many light attacks do you usually do in 3s?
*completely base tooltips*

If you want to compare skills that heals other you can't compare it with selfheals. Of course those are stronger.
And you weave anyways. At least you should.

Not to mention that Crit Surge's healing power get's weaker the less you invest in crit (no cp, heavy armor) or even completely shut down if you're grabbing that pvp meta item Malacath's Band.

Only downside I really see here is that it procs on less people.

while i'm not saying power surge shouldn't be buffed (because it does seem a little underpowered to me), i think that having more consistent and controllable healing via light attacks for only 2 people is completely fine. as the skill is quite boring, unreliable and underpowered

Like I said, I don't think Lotus is perfectly fine, I'm just worried that the wrong benchmark gets used here.
It seems like this discussion is heading to "overbuff" when I read ideas that it should buff an entire trial group with toughness (maturation) or savagery/prophecy, which would mean that it has to heals more than just one other player to reliably do that.

overbuffing is something i don't want to happen which is why i've been suggesting nerfs to the class alongside buffs for a while. i definitely don't want the class to be overpowered, but i absolutely do want them to feel complete as they still feel slapped together with raw damage boosts and incomplete skills. this skill, needs something like this to help DPS reliably heal themselves and provide a little bit group healing, or just to guarantee a healer be healed every time they light or heavy attack. the skill is too random at the moment and this buff will make it feel better to use.

Vaoh

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Making Lotus Flower decent isn’t going to imbalance PvP lol. In fact the suggestion would pretty much be to make it half of a Crit Surge heal. Even with the proposed changes a lot of people wouldn’t slot it in PvP. In PvE is where it could see more use.

Not saying that Lotus is fine, I'm just wondering why you compare to crit surge instead of power surge? PS is the morph that isn't only a selfheal and has 3 times the cooldown of CS and a lower heal. Did you take that into consideration?

It’s mentioned in the original post, yes. Idk if you went through the spoilers tab.

ESO_Nightingale

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sorry what?
Warden is:
- stamden PVP - 2nd best in solo play, second only to broken stamcro
- magden PVP - awesome in group play
- warden healer - best healer
- warden tanks - rarely used in meta groups because wardens are better in healer role, but still a very good tank
- magden dps - have highest parses in latest changes
- stamden dps - yeah, this guys fell behind, but that's because you can't buff them without buffing them in PVP where they are already borderline OP.

So overall, warden is even better then necro (magcro aren't good for anything aside from some group PVP build).. and all 4 base game classes may only dream about such diversity of available BiS roles.

So while lotus flower can have some love, something should be nerfed to compensate, and I'm not sure you'll want that.

here we go.
what i don't get about comments like these, are that they assume that the class no longer has any problems because they are doing well in the current patch. and that the people who suggest changes, are also somehow automatically against any changes to other classes. nothing here has said that necro shouldn't get anything.

also. We just talked completely removing the healing from arctic blast to make it have a defensive weakness based around self healing.

That's what I'm talking about. Are you sure that everybody will happy if arctic blast will lose healing? And there will be place on bars for both (lotus flower and arctic blast)?

I think lotus flower now is equivalent of DK's molten armaments. It is nice thing to run around in casual mode, but absolutely useless for competitive content..

I'm sure a lot of people might be upset that they would lose the heal. but it's largely unnecessary for how our defence has been designed as we have a great amount of natural mitigation, and great speed, along with major mending when we heal someone at low health. we never had it before and now we suddenly have it. So many wardens are using the skill as a massive heal, and becoming unkillable tanks. When what we needed was a good stun and damage skill. the stun is currently ineffective in a lot of scenarios. only really being useful for 1vX. PvE tanks don't use this morph very often, as polar wind is far better in general, as it heals allies for a lot, and they also have another skill (gripping shards) which fulfils the same function that they already don't use very much except for in veteran dungeons.

instead of the heal, my suggestion for arctic blast was to make it into AB4.0 which is a very fast moving line AoE tornado skill that moves forward, damaging enemies and stunning the first one in it's path. would work extremely well with our kit, is extremely interesting, and gives us that offensive stun we have been asking for, for a long time.

this is the design document i made for the new idea. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n68B7D2Zna4NNcDCiPp1zYmJP4KDh3n-PsRAI80RLnM/edit?usp=sharing

In my signature is my overall warden class reworks list. a lot of changes are all interconnected. and they hope to make the class feel more unique and fun to both play and fight against. i haven't updated it in a few months, save for the bloodthirsty change. so it's a little outdated. but i hope it would convey what i would like to do.

MartiniDaniels

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sorry what?
Warden is:
- stamden PVP - 2nd best in solo play, second only to broken stamcro
- magden PVP - awesome in group play
- warden healer - best healer
- warden tanks - rarely used in meta groups because wardens are better in healer role, but still a very good tank
- magden dps - have highest parses in latest changes
- stamden dps - yeah, this guys fell behind, but that's because you can't buff them without buffing them in PVP where they are already borderline OP.

So overall, warden is even better then necro (magcro aren't good for anything aside from some group PVP build).. and all 4 base game classes may only dream about such diversity of available BiS roles.

So while lotus flower can have some love, something should be nerfed to compensate, and I'm not sure you'll want that.

here we go.
what i don't get about comments like these, are that they assume that the class no longer has any problems because they are doing well in the current patch. and that the people who suggest changes, are also somehow automatically against any changes to other classes. nothing here has said that necro shouldn't get anything.

also. We just talked completely removing the healing from arctic blast to make it have a defensive weakness based around self healing.

That's what I'm talking about. Are you sure that everybody will happy if arctic blast will lose healing? And there will be place on bars for both (lotus flower and arctic blast)?

I think lotus flower now is equivalent of DK's molten armaments. It is nice thing to run around in casual mode, but absolutely useless for competitive content..

I'm sure a lot of people might be upset that they would lose the heal. but it's largely unnecessary for how our defence has been designed as we have a great amount of natural mitigation, and great speed, along with major mending when we heal someone at low health. we never had it before and now we suddenly have it. So many wardens are using the skill as a massive heal, and becoming unkillable tanks. When what we needed was a good stun and damage skill. the stun is currently ineffective in a lot of scenarios. only really being useful for 1vX. PvE tanks don't use this morph very often, as polar wind is far better in general, as it heals allies for a lot, and they also have another skill (gripping shards) which fulfils the same function that they already don't use very much except for in veteran dungeons.

instead of the heal, my suggestion for arctic blast was to make it into AB4.0 which is a very fast moving line AoE tornado skill that moves forward, damaging enemies and stunning the first one in it's path. would work extremely well with our kit, is extremely interesting, and gives us that offensive stun we have been asking for, for a long time.

this is the design document i made for the new idea. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n68B7D2Zna4NNcDCiPp1zYmJP4KDh3n-PsRAI80RLnM/edit?usp=sharing

In my signature is my overall warden class reworks list. a lot of changes are all interconnected. and they hope to make the class feel more unique and fun to both play and fight against. i haven't updated it in a few months, save for the bloodthirsty change. so it's a little outdated. but i hope it would convey what i would like to do.

Wow, that's massive, I enjoyed that doc. ZOS should hire you

ESO_Nightingale

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sorry what?
Warden is:
- stamden PVP - 2nd best in solo play, second only to broken stamcro
- magden PVP - awesome in group play
- warden healer - best healer
- warden tanks - rarely used in meta groups because wardens are better in healer role, but still a very good tank
- magden dps - have highest parses in latest changes
- stamden dps - yeah, this guys fell behind, but that's because you can't buff them without buffing them in PVP where they are already borderline OP.

So overall, warden is even better then necro (magcro aren't good for anything aside from some group PVP build).. and all 4 base game classes may only dream about such diversity of available BiS roles.

So while lotus flower can have some love, something should be nerfed to compensate, and I'm not sure you'll want that.

here we go.
what i don't get about comments like these, are that they assume that the class no longer has any problems because they are doing well in the current patch. and that the people who suggest changes, are also somehow automatically against any changes to other classes. nothing here has said that necro shouldn't get anything.

also. We just talked completely removing the healing from arctic blast to make it have a defensive weakness based around self healing.

That's what I'm talking about. Are you sure that everybody will happy if arctic blast will lose healing? And there will be place on bars for both (lotus flower and arctic blast)?

I think lotus flower now is equivalent of DK's molten armaments. It is nice thing to run around in casual mode, but absolutely useless for competitive content..

I'm sure a lot of people might be upset that they would lose the heal. but it's largely unnecessary for how our defence has been designed as we have a great amount of natural mitigation, and great speed, along with major mending when we heal someone at low health. we never had it before and now we suddenly have it. So many wardens are using the skill as a massive heal, and becoming unkillable tanks. When what we needed was a good stun and damage skill. the stun is currently ineffective in a lot of scenarios. only really being useful for 1vX. PvE tanks don't use this morph very often, as polar wind is far better in general, as it heals allies for a lot, and they also have another skill (gripping shards) which fulfils the same function that they already don't use very much except for in veteran dungeons.

instead of the heal, my suggestion for arctic blast was to make it into AB4.0 which is a very fast moving line AoE tornado skill that moves forward, damaging enemies and stunning the first one in it's path. would work extremely well with our kit, is extremely interesting, and gives us that offensive stun we have been asking for, for a long time.

this is the design document i made for the new idea. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n68B7D2Zna4NNcDCiPp1zYmJP4KDh3n-PsRAI80RLnM/edit?usp=sharing

In my signature is my overall warden class reworks list. a lot of changes are all interconnected. and they hope to make the class feel more unique and fun to both play and fight against. i haven't updated it in a few months, save for the bloodthirsty change. so it's a little outdated. but i hope it would convey what i would like to do.

Wow, that's massive, I enjoyed that doc. ZOS should hire you

thank you.
but i am currently in my first year of game design school in another country. so if that was ever going to happen. it would take at least a few years. and by that point i don't know if they would really be supporting the game anymore, or be looking to hire a junior designer. i just hope that my ideas help get the class the love that it needs for balance and theme. but not sure how likely that is in the current state of balance.

MindOfTheSwarm

Qbiken wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

The reason it's not used is Beacuse Arcitc Blast is just better right now, it used to be more popular.
IMHO warden doesn't need more healing, I'd be okay with reduced cost though.

Artic Blast needs to get it´s healing completely removed (and get reworked into a propper stun for magdens) and Polar Wind needs to be reworked so the heal scales of max magicka and/spell damage. The healing proportion of the skill is heavily overperforming and no heal should scale of max HP if you ask me.

By reducing/reworking the healing on this skill, you can without problems buff the skills in the actual healing skilline warden has.

They moved in the right direction making Arctic Blast an AOE again, BUT they got half of it right. I would simply have it where it stuns on cast against Chilled targets (no Warden should have any issue chilling an opponent especially a Magden). Then instead of a pulse I would rework it into a baby sleet storm of sorts that has less range. I would also increase its duration to 12 seconds, 6 seconds is kind of poo for an AOE DoT.

If however, you are asking for a ranged stun, then that is another discussion entirely but that should not be in the Winter line. This whole line is about AoE effects and a ranged ability feels out of place, which is why I supported the revert to an AOE pulse.

If Warden need a ranged stun then it needs to be worked into their Animal Guardians skills. Failing that, simply rock Destructive Clench on a Fire Staff and you have your stun.

ESO_Nightingale

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

The reason it's not used is Beacuse Arcitc Blast is just better right now, it used to be more popular.
IMHO warden doesn't need more healing, I'd be okay with reduced cost though.

Artic Blast needs to get it´s healing completely removed (and get reworked into a propper stun for magdens) and Polar Wind needs to be reworked so the heal scales of max magicka and/spell damage. The healing proportion of the skill is heavily overperforming and no heal should scale of max HP if you ask me.

By reducing/reworking the healing on this skill, you can without problems buff the skills in the actual healing skilline warden has.

They moved in the right direction making Arctic Blast an AOE again, BUT they got half of it right. I would simply have it where it stuns on cast against Chilled targets (no Warden should have any issue chilling an opponent especially a Magden). Then instead of a pulse I would rework it into a baby sleet storm of sorts that has less range. I would also increase its duration to 12 seconds, 6 seconds is kind of poo for an AOE DoT.

If however, you are asking for a ranged stun, then that is another discussion entirely but that should not be in the Winter line. This whole line is about AoE effects and a ranged ability feels out of place, which is why I supported the revert to an AOE pulse.

If Warden need a ranged stun then it needs to be worked into their Animal Guardians skills. Failing that, simply rock Destructive Clench on a Fire Staff and you have your stun.

We tried this idea before with the chilled status effect being required for the stun. But the existance of nord makes it not work. But there is a way to make the stun work on the winter's embrace. I've showcased the idea in a comment above.

Sahidom

Also buff Lotus and Concealed Weapons to proc weapon poisons.. period: doesn't matter what weapons equipped, let the equipped poison have a proc chance.

LeHarrt91

I kinda would like Lotus to also deal extra damage, i get its a heal in the healing tree but its not as tho Warden healing is lacking.
What if it dealt damage equal to or half of the heal? Or similar to Grim Focus, after 5 LA you can activate again for burst damage.

YandereGirlfriend

I think that a buff would be fine (and I agree, the animation is potential BiS in the game) but you really have to factor in the entire class kit (especially passives) before drawing comparisons between skills.

Even without directly considering its PvP implications, Wardens are already getting Minor Protection for free in PvE and have various skills that boost their resistances directly. That is damage avoided that a Sorcerer has to eat (or else waste another premium bar slot on a shield). Wardens are thus innately tankier and require less healing than a Sorcerer.

Then you have free Minor Toughness which is itself basically a mini-shield versus a potential Sorcerer DPS that is not being buffed by it. The Sorcerer can get its own 8% health, it's true, but at the cost of double-barring a pet, so the opportunity cost of that 8% health is zero bar slots compared to two. You also have the rest of the Green Balance passives that further boost Warden healing efficiency whereas Sorcerers have virtually no healing support from their class passives.

So while apples-to-apples Green Lotus might be underwhelming versus Surge, when taken in with the rest of the Warden's formidable class healing kit, it is much more reasonable.

Regarding Arctic Blast: one of those morphs ought to be a FROST DAMAGE SKILL, perhaps a melee Frost spammable so that Frost Wardens don't have to use the clunky, non-Frost damage bird.

@WrathOfInnos That's a fantastic idea for providing group Major Savagery/Prophecy! I would love, in basically all scenarios (PvE and PvP) to clear up some bar space this way and/or be able to use some different potions.

MashmalloMan

While I'd like the skill to be buffed, especially because buffs like Major Brutality/Sorcery on base skills was recently made to all classes, the same should apply to base skills of Major Savagery/Prophecy. I never agreed with Warden's design. I hate that every skill seems to have a stamina and magicka morph where the only difference was the resource used. This was obviously done during a time period where ZOS was trying to correct some of the wrongs people had with base classes that had next to no stamina morphs at the time.

They went into desinging Wardens and even Necro's with the intent of making both sides of the coin have options, however they did so in a very disatisfying way. Most morphs are just stamina vs magicka. Only recently they've begun to correct some of those mistakes, Necro does have enough differences between function and ideas of their morphs. IMO, skills like within the dps line should not be seperated by stamina/magicka with basically the same function. I'd much rather prefer them to design skills the way they chose to do DK's Stone Fist vs DK's Whip. Completely different trees, different use, different animations, etc, but both a spammable. Because honestly, the difference between a stamina warden and magicka warden is very bare minimum right now, they look exactly the same.

But back on topic, as others mentioned, your comparisons aren't apples to apples.

For example, Power Surge is the only aoe hot available to Sorc healers that have no useful Healer passive synergies to begin with. In fact, it was specifically made for this purpose in the same patch they gave Warden's an aoe hot via Budding Seeds because they were reworking how Healing Springs performed.

So with that lense.. Warden has 2 aoe hots and sorcs only have 1, while also having much stronger healing passives.

Power Surge proccing every 3 seconds from only crit heals has also been a huge oversight. Most aoe hots tick every 2 seconds, there isn't anything in the game that lines up with 3 seconds, the skill is pretty underwhelming for a reliable aoe hot. 2 second CD would of made much more sense.

So to say "Power Surge heals more in 3 seconds than Lotus Flower in 3 seconds" is a bad comparison. There's much more to it than that. That being said, I do think all morphs should be up to 30s +, provide both crit buffs and I like the idea of it healing yourself and 1 other target, I'd say the range should be equal to DK's Cauterize at 28m instead of Sorcs.

A damage morph and a healing morph is the exact same treatment that crit surge and power surge got so I approve. Previous version of power surge was always underwhelming since it was only used to get Major Sorcery while having less heals than crit surge.

ESO_Nightingale

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I think that a buff would be fine (and I agree, the animation is potential BiS in the game) but you really have to factor in the entire class kit (especially passives) before drawing comparisons between skills.

Even without directly considering its PvP implications, Wardens are already getting Minor Protection for free in PvE and have various skills that boost their resistances directly. That is damage avoided that a Sorcerer has to eat (or else waste another premium bar slot on a shield). Wardens are thus innately tankier and require less healing than a Sorcerer.

Then you have free Minor Toughness which is itself basically a mini-shield versus a potential Sorcerer DPS that is not being buffed by it. The Sorcerer can get its own 8% health, it's true, but at the cost of double-barring a pet, so the opportunity cost of that 8% health is zero bar slots compared to two. You also have the rest of the Green Balance passives that further boost Warden healing efficiency whereas Sorcerers have virtually no healing support from their class passives.

So while apples-to-apples Green Lotus might be underwhelming versus Surge, when taken in with the rest of the Warden's formidable class healing kit, it is much more reasonable.

Regarding Arctic Blast: one of those morphs ought to be a FROST DAMAGE SKILL, perhaps a melee Frost spammable so that Frost Wardens don't have to use the clunky, non-Frost damage bird.

@WrathOfInnos That's a fantastic idea for providing group Major Savagery/Prophecy! I would love, in basically all scenarios (PvE and PvP) to clear up some bar space this way and/or be able to use some different potions.

Personally, i think making animal companions skills do frost damage would help with that issue, then arctic blast can become a unique damage skill to help make us feel different and more fun to play.

mague

Make HA heal bear again.

Zippy81

I always liked wardens for them being unique. At the beginning, they couldn't join vet trial groups because they provided nothing special. Now they are very useful. Even as damage dealers.

I read the whole thread, I visited that frost discord and checked that doc. I'm a bit scared, to be honest. Classes spec in different elements, that's true, but forcing one of them to be frost damage only is a bit too much. I don't want it. It's like forcing wardens to be healers - not fair.

But back to the topic: the ability can't be compared to surge because, as it's been noticed before, the passives sorcerers and wardens have are very different. The only buff that I liked was that major buff to the whole group. Keep in mind though that wardens already buff groups twice: minor toughness and major resistances. Another buff could be a bit too much. I'd rather see a buff like that on a crit class like templar or nightblade.

Why not simply make that ability last 30 seconds and free of charge? Buff enough for solo play.

I like wardens as they are right now. A blend of magicka/frost damage. Necromancers focus on all elements, and good. Sorcerers love lightning damage but crystal frags and pets are magic damage. Templars have fire and magic. Only dragonknights are forced into fire, do they have any magic damage abilities? I don't remember now. And now that 10% to magic damage will make wardens more efficient vampires. Wardens are fine as they are. It's the frost damage that needs identity. But that's a totally different topic.

ESO_Nightingale

Zippy81 wrote: »

I always liked wardens for them being unique. At the beginning, they couldn't join vet trial groups because they provided nothing special. Now they are very useful. Even as damage dealers.

I read the whole thread, I visited that frost discord and checked that doc. I'm a bit scared, to be honest. Classes spec in different elements, that's true, but forcing one of them to be frost damage only is a bit too much. I don't want it. It's like forcing wardens to be healers - not fair.

But back to the topic: the ability can't be compared to surge because, as it's been noticed before, the passives sorcerers and wardens have are very different. The only buff that I liked was that major buff to the whole group. Keep in mind though that wardens already buff groups twice: minor toughness and major resistances. Another buff could be a bit too much. I'd rather see a buff like that on a crit class like templar or nightblade.

Why not simply make that ability last 30 seconds and free of charge? Buff enough for solo play.

I like wardens as they are right now. A blend of magicka/frost damage. Necromancers focus on all elements, and good. Sorcerers love lightning damage but crystal frags and pets are magic damage. Templars have fire and magic. Only dragonknights are forced into fire, do they have any magic damage abilities? I don't remember now. And now that 10% to magic damage will make wardens more efficient vampires. Wardens are fine as they are. It's the frost damage that needs identity. But that's a totally different topic.

changing the damage type from magic to frost helps to apply our chilled status effect and to utilise other sets. Too many classes are focused on magic damage, and i don't think keeping the frost class with mostly magic skills is a good idea for uniqueness. forcing a class's abilities into a damage type other than magic is completely fine and serves to improve the experience as status effects are quite useful magic damage doesn't apply anything. chilled is especially useful now that it increases our critical damage done to enemies. It's also not even close to forcing wardens to be healers. i think that's a really bad example for what that change would bring.

also, sorc pets deal shock damage. it's just frags, curse and mines that deal magic damage.

GrumpyDuckling

I'd love to see Lotus Flower operate as a toggle that remains active during barswap (similar to Mend Wounds in that respect). And I wonder how it might/will change when/if light and heavy attack changes occur.