We got the reason why Scions don't have wings and got an answer on how Lamae modified her bloodline

Lord-Otto

Sephyr wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Deus ex Machina.
If Lamae can modify her blood (which is a clear retconning tool), where will she stop? Immunity to fire? Immunity to mundane weapons? Lemon Turtle has opened Pandora's Box here.

Yes Pandora's box has been opened. Before it took the power of a daedric prince and one of his bargains to slightly alter a bloodline just a little. Now, a mere immortal vampire with a Vendetta can completely change a vampire's entire nature to the point they don't even need blood to stay sane anymore.

Those weakness likely have nothing to do with their actual Vampiric state so likely cannot be changed in any way, a weakness to fire is a trait many undead have, not just Vampires.

Perfect Scion has no fire weakness. What keeps Lamae from further rituals until her strain has permanent stage five perfection?
The lore team is erasing rules here and that is a very bad thing for a world. You know how "Game of Thrones" used to have set rules, like travel time? And in the final seasons, people were just fast traveling, even warping all over Westeros, much to the dismay of fans the? Yeah, that is the same mistake ZOS are making here.

It does raise some questionable implications that seem to have a theme. I don't want to post spoilers, but there's also blood rituals being performed in Greymoor's storyline too, or what looks like with the decorational clutter in one of the wings I was able to sneak in without doing the quest. Furnishings I'd love to have, but at the same time if they plan on using this trope and they abuse it they may as well just start calling vampirism something else. A vampire that grows insanely vulnerable as they drink blood? Someone's been in the skooma again.

Yup, that was how vampirism used to work, drinking blood made you more civilized. It's even hinted at in the famous "Immortal Blood" book. ZOS are really overstepping the bounds here.

zaria

Lokryn wrote: »

I'm not buying it.

I suspect the real reason is that they didn't have time to make the wings look good enough for release and so they scrapped the idea and justified with lore after the fact.

Now wings kind of imply flying or at least power jump as in jumping over keep walls.
This creates some issues as most understand.
Purely decorative wings is pretty pointless.

Yes you have armors with wings, but that is a bit different as it an fashion who was use a couple of times by cavalry, probably to bulk you up and made you look more scary perhaps making an sound during an charge kind of like the stuka dive bomber siren. ESO also has this and no issue with it.

Fur_like_snow

I get the impression they couldn’t get the wings right so the solution was to just remove and play damage control with a bit of retcon.

Lord-Otto

zaria wrote: »

Lokryn wrote: »

I'm not buying it.

I suspect the real reason is that they didn't have time to make the wings look good enough for release and so they scrapped the idea and justified with lore after the fact.

Now wings kind of imply flying or at least power jump as in jumping over keep walls.
This creates some issues as most understand.
Purely decorative wings is pretty pointless.

Yes you have armors with wings, but that is a bit different as it an fashion who was use a couple of times by cavalry, probably to bulk you up and made you look more scary perhaps making an sound during an charge kind of like the stuka dive bomber siren. ESO also has this and no issue with it.

Wing STUMPS. They could be non-functional. Like a penguin's. A mass-murdering, blood-sucking penguin...

Finedaible

All I'm hearing from that explanation is "Something, something... because MAGIC..." Seriously, "magical alteration"??? That's a super lame and cliché reason for modifying lore. I smell heresy, brother.

Thevampirenight

Finedaible wrote: »

All I'm hearing from that explanation is "Something, something... because MAGIC..." Seriously, "magical alteration"??? That's a super lame and cliché reason for modifying lore. I smell heresy, brother.

Well magical alteration is a thing. Now we know magic itself can be used to alter vampiric bloodlines.
Some might not like that aspect of the lore but that is the path Zenimax decided to go down. So if vampires can be altered by magic then they can be altered by magic.

Lord-Otto

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

All I'm hearing from that explanation is "Something, something... because MAGIC..." Seriously, "magical alteration"??? That's a super lame and cliché reason for modifying lore. I smell heresy, brother.

Well magical alteration is a thing. Now we know magic itself can be used to alter vampiric bloodlines.
Some might not like that aspect of the lore but that is the path Zenimax decided to go down. So if they can be altered by magic then they can be altered by magic.

The problem is this shifts soft magic to hard magic. Most good stories and fictional worlds try to keep magic a bit more subdued, with clear rules. Because in storytelling, magic is just OP. Why not transmute sand into gold or food? Why not enchant a TV to never break? Hell, what keeps you from casting death away completely with magic?
It is a very slippery slope ZOS are treading. I would really hope for an additional explanation clarifying Lamae could do this ritual only once. Or every couple thousand years or so. Something to keep it in check.

Al99

"Only Vampire Lords can have wings..."

Dragon Knights would find that statement amusing...

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun

zaria wrote: »

now wings kind of imply flying or at least power jump as in jumping over keep walls.
This creates some issues as most understand.
Purely decorative wings is pretty pointless.

Nobody expected to fly everywhere in Skyrim. Nobody expects their Dragon Knights to fly all over the place here.

I think people are smart enough to understand that something having wings doesn't necessarily mean that a fully functional flight model is coming with it

ElvenOverlord

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Deus ex Machina.
If Lamae can modify her blood (which is a clear retconning tool), where will she stop? Immunity to fire? Immunity to mundane weapons? Lemon Turtle has opened Pandora's Box here.

Not really. That can be explained away simply by saying there are limits to her power and what she can change\alter. I don't know anything that says she can't modify her blood. But either way I think it would have made more sense to have her strike a deal with another daedric Prince. Preferably one who hates Molag Bal, and have them modify her blood and give her a new form. Cyrodilic vamps have their own deal with Clavicus for instance so its entirely possible.

Vevvev

Al99 wrote: »

"Only Vampire Lords can have wings..."

Dragon Knights would find that statement amusing...

My dragonknight vampire on the PTS enjoys her wings a lot lol. Shame you can't use Ferocious Leap and Scion at the same time.

Thevampirenight

Well we know from Summerset that a Daedric Prince isn't needed to create a Strain of Vampirism.
As it can be created artificially by alchemy. I made a post on this a while back.
So the idea of mortals being able to mess with vampirism isn't new as Summerset Introduced a artificially created strain of it by use of alchemy.
Now it is interesting that mortal vampires like Lamae, Mortal as in not an immortal daedra was able to use knowledge of her bloodline and her skills as a priest to alter her own bloodline. I think its safe to say that Daedric Princes are not needed in the process of creation or alteration of Vampiric Bloodlines.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Haladan's_Research_Journal
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Norasea
"Stone abominations, vampiric alchemy …. If the Sapiarchs found out that Haladan had a hand in this tragedy they would strike his name from the histories. Emile would never let that happen.
Read Haladan's notes. You'll see the truth of it."

The hunger?
"Yes. I can feel it creeping up the back of my throat—that thirst. It was just a tickle at first. Now? Who knows how far it will go.
Emile brewed this form of the virus alchemically. Maybe this will pass and I won't need to feed at all. I can hope."

Nova_J

Thevampirenight wrote: »

@Noxavian i know was very passionate about this I don't know what happened to him. But do to Forum Rules we can't talk about it.

According to Lemon or the art director, there is a lore reason behind this. Only the Apex Vampire Lords have Wings or something and it has to do with the power in Molag Bal's Blood that makes up what makes up a Vampire Lord is the impression I got from the answers. They had wings in development because the teams kinda put stuff together from existing in game stuff however the wings got taken out because the Blood Scions are not supposed to have them. Not sure why this is the case maybe its something Bethesda Restricted them on that is a theory or because the game couldn't handle it which is another Theory. It was said the wings were something that should have been pulled even before Pts. So we are not ever getting winged Blood Scions. Is the Answer and the Answer is Lore.

We also got an Answer on Lamae and how she modified her bloodline.
It is indeed Sorcery or ritual that she uses to modify her own bloodline and she does have this power and ability that is the reason why the feeding for power instead of staving for power is flipped. We also got an Answer that Molag Bal and Lamae Bal really hate each other or don't like each other. So there is an actual rivalry there and Lamae will do anything to stick it to him in the eye and she also used Ritual and blood magic to Make the Blood Scion Form. Its not a form of Vampire Lord and this is 100% not a form created by Molag Bal. Lamae made this form herself so it is a unique Lamae Creation.

Lmfaoo this is messy retconning at its finest.

Finedaible

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

All I'm hearing from that explanation is "Something, something... because MAGIC..." Seriously, "magical alteration"??? That's a super lame and cliché reason for modifying lore. I smell heresy, brother.

Well magical alteration is a thing. Now we know magic itself can be used to alter vampiric bloodlines.
Some might not like that aspect of the lore but that is the path Zenimax decided to go down. So if vampires can be altered by magic then they can be altered by magic.

What I meant was if anything can be as easily retconned away via sudden and poorly explained "Magic" - which is something ZoS has resorted to too much already in my opinion - what is there to stop a writer from mutilating lore for external purposes? It's like saying "well scratch all those generations of careful lore-building, I need a reason right now to create something arbitrary which doesn't make any sense whatsoever within the established rules of this universe. I reject your reality and substitute my own!" It's just bad writing.