Why ESO players like short duration things.

Jaimeh

Tapio75 wrote: »

Damage shield, just add to rotation to keep that shield up and take no damage at all, imbue weapon, just press that button before every light attack. HoT, just spam that regeneration in your rotation to keep it up with all other heals and so on. It takes no skill, but it just takes speed which i am good at, but when i play i want to relax. If i want to move my fingers in rapid order, i play guitar.

First of all, PvE DDs who have to do fast paced rotations, don't use shields, or HOTs in said rotations in end-game when speed is of the essence. Secondly, a good rotation does take skill, it's much more than fast button pressing, and it becomes more challenging when mechanics have to be observed. Finally, if you want to relax when you play, just don't go in high combat situations, there's a plethora of things to do in game that don't require it. And there's even combat that doesn't require speed to be successful. So just do that, and let fast combat -arguably one of the best features in ESO- to those who do enjoy it.

Starlock

Eh, I don't like the short duration of abilities (particularly buffs) in this game at all. They aren't fun, but it is what it is. Don't assume that ESO players like it.

TropicsDelight

Tapio75 wrote: »

Damage shield, just add to rotation to keep that shield up and take no damage at all, imbue weapon, just press that button before every light attack. HoT, just spam that regeneration in your rotation to keep it up with all other heals and so on. It takes no skill

That is not true. Weaving those into a rotation while also dealing damage, while also blocking/dodging and dealing with fight mechanics makes ESO one of the most skill based MMORPG's out there. Most players in ESO cannot solo world boss level mobs, few can solo a heroic group dungeon, but a small few players can take the tools they have in this game and do some pretty crazy stuff that very few other players can manage.

The longer term buffs will simply make an even more boring damage rotation that will be every bit as much button clicking but simply remove some of the reactive aspects of the shield and healing casts. WOW is a good example, stupidly mind numbingly boring DPS rotation button clicking with 1/10th the fight awareness that ESO requires to be truly good.

Tapio75

Most of my annoyment comes from damage shields and resistances i think. Like the spells that give resistance last quite a long time when in my mind, resistances should be situational where as damage shields are something that you put up when you are going in to fight and then raise again when it has absorbed all the damage it can. In ESO this is just opposite.

Even making damage shield last like they once did but then tweak the damage, so it is the thing that goes out and destroys the shield would help a lot. Then give resistances some more beef and make them situational spells, you need to cast to counter certain types of damage.

Even in PVP, making a shiel last x amount of damage, should be easy enough to make it so that the shield really works as it is now and addition to that, like what they should have done to prevent layering shields, would be to prevent any shield from being applied when one is up or to give each character restriction mechanic, that only givees permission to apply one shield at any given time and that shield being the strongest available and make it also so, that only certain shields can be applied to other players and them being the shields healers apply like steadfast ward for example.

Different damage types we allready have, but they dont matter at all at leasst in PVE. They just look different and have different names and durations. I would also love them have some meaning, but this i could lice qwithout.

Hmm... Maybe its not really the speed that bother me or stuff like that needing reflexes and all. Thats pretty fun actually, but now that i think of it, its rather the thing WHAT i need to spam in battle or i dont really actually need, but as a caster it just feels extremely stupid when ypou have no CC and enemies are contantly on your face and caster needs to roll and dodge like a melee fighter rather than graciouskly stand there shooting magick at enemies while shielded from most damage. This i see working as PVE play, but i underdstand that cant be the way in PVP.

robertthebard

Tapio75 wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

Tapio75 wrote: »

Damage shields, that could work on damage absorbed instead of short duration, buffs that could be long duration but give less buff, all kinds of things you need to apply again and again in rather rapid order.

I do sometimes like the feeling of getting fast oaced combat, but its pointless since almost nothing gives a challenge and furthermore, the playstyöle that makes you spam buttons in rapid order to keep things up, does not make very relaxing play at all.

I just wonder, because in many other games i play, people consider longer buffs, less rapid spamming and less button mashing in general as QoL improvment where as here, people call this "Reactive playing". From what i played the game, it is nothing to do with reactive play. Its just that you start the combat and then press many buttons in both action bars to keep all these buffs up and you are still basically invincible. Damage shield, just add to rotation to keep that shield up and take no damage at all, imbue weapon, just press that button before every light attack. HoT, just spam that regeneration in your rotation to keep it up with all other heals and so on. It takes no skill, but it just takes speed which i am good at, but when i play i want to relax. If i want to move my fingers in rapid order, i play guitar.

Honestly, your post is littered with the same old confrontational rhetoric that is used (and fails) in every post of this nature. Key examples: "it takes no skill", "nothing gives a challenge", "it's only speed/button mashing", and so on and so forth. All of it misses the mark and demonstrates general ignorance about the game.

The combat in ESO is not for players like you. Period. If you play to relax, quest, roleplay, etc. then the combat is basically irrelevant to you. The combat developers have explicitly said so, repeatedly. All of the combat designs are thinking towards both pvp and more challenging pve content such as vet dungeons and trials. And quite frankly, if you don't participate in that content then you will likely never understand why ESO's fast paced combat works so well. Sorry to lay it out on you like that, but it's the truth.

You disagree, that selecting a spammable to weave added with upkeep of buffs and damage shield is nothing more than muscle memory thing? If so, please explain the rotations that require something else than simple muscle memory?

I should have made the first post more clear though. It not all about just being fast button mashing. Button mashing for sake of it has no value and when it can all be done with muiscle memory and is mostly based on spammable, light/heavy attacks and upkeeping stuff, it not as much about the skill and knownledge than it is about memory.

Upkeepimg buffs is very nauseating for me. It just doing same stuff all day long as fast as one can do it plus the need to constantly change action bars to get everything is rather annoying mechanic and has veryy litle of relaxing value.

I do like situational spells and reactive gameplay though, but ESO does seem to have very litle of this whether it is PVE or PVP and one does not need to play lots of that content to know this, because forums and internet is full of information that indicates it is like i see it to be.

As mentioned already, PvP is a situation where rotations and pure muscle memory are out the window. Are there situations where you can get off a full rotation? In every PvP game I've played, yep. There are also a lot of situations where you can't.

MartiniDaniels

Tapio, your damage shield is melted much faster then 6 seconds if you used it with correct timing. So decreasing shield strength but giving it longer duration is absolutely pointless, nobody will use that morph.

If you propose some kind of shield which will hold on for long duration, while absorbing only part of damage... it is equivalent to any protection ability. For example minor protection reduces damage taken by 8%, here's your long duration "shield".

Fur_like_snow

Damage shields in 2020? In old patches I never bothered with mSorc because I didn’t like how shields functioned. On live currently i don’t even run a damage shield on any magicka toon because healing and passive mitigation is so high. Not sure why anyone would use a low strength high uptime shield I’m not sure what that would accomplish.

VaranisArano

ArchMikem wrote: »

PvP.

Long durations made PvP easier. PvPers complained.

PVE.

Long durations make PVE easier. Molag Kena, Domihaus, and the coalition of forum bosses also complained, but you didn't hear them because they don't have forum accounts.

henrycupcakerwb17_ESO

AMeanOne wrote: »

Easy solution, go play something you like instead

Tandor wrote: »

No-one is eligible to talk about short duration buffs unless they played a shaman in the original EverQuest. Those who did will know what I mean !

Tandor wrote: »

No-one is eligible to talk about short duration buffs unless they played a shaman in the original EverQuest. Those who did will know what I mean !

Easy for people to say go play something you like when The ever alpha testing pantheon : rise of the fallen is my last hope

And now Brad McQuaid is dead, he was the soul of Everquest ... I dunno ... how can someone just died like that ?

I recommend you guys should try out project gorgon , you Will get seriously addicted after been through something as soulless and bland like eso


https://store.steampowered.com/app/342940/Project_Gorgon/

Varana

To be honest, "I like to spam X more often than Y and not vice versa" is a pretty specific hill to die on.

If you have a bunch of enemies on you, that's exactly that reactive gameplay you want: Rolldodge, pop a shield, block, heal. Sure, you're not reacting with the exact same tools like in other games, but, well, see above about hills.
Unless you play solo, you shouldn't have to facetank a boss - that's what you have a tank for. And the adds are meant to be dealt with by DDs on their own, forcing them to possibly break their rotations in order to react to what's happening. ESO precisely has no area taunt for tanks to keep all trash mobs aggroed all the time.

Knightpanther

Giljabrar wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

No-one is eligible to talk about short duration buffs unless they played a shaman in the original EverQuest. Those who did will know what I mean !

I played enchanter. Nothing was more buttclench than trying to maintain CC's/debuffs on 13 enemies when they all spawn in the middle of your camp. AA targeting window only went up to 8, so that was good fun. God I miss playing that class. There hasn't been a role that focused so heavily on CC/Debuff/Buffing in any MMO I've played since.

I was a Pally so all i had to do was spam stun, i still hate SSRA

Be Safe

Everest_Lionheart

I play mostly solo. With that being said if durations of these abilities went any longer there would be no challenge trying to solo any dungeons especially on my magplar. I can lay down enough AOE after I buff up that half the enemies in mobs are dead before they can get one hit in. Throw in skills that return HP and some shield procs it’s easy mode.

I do sacrifice single target damage for the build so vet trials are probably out for me but other than that the rest of the game is a breeze. In all honesty half these skills could use a shorter duration.

bmnoble

I just hate the really short buffs, 3 second ones in particular, gives you so little time to make use of them effectively.

Tapio75

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

I play mostly solo. With that being said if durations of these abilities went any longer there would be no challenge trying to solo any dungeons especially on my magplar. I can lay down enough AOE after I buff up that half the enemies in mobs are dead before they can get one hit in. Throw in skills that return HP and some shield procs it’s easy mode.

I do sacrifice single target damage for the build so vet trials are probably out for me but other than that the rest of the game is a breeze. In all honesty half these skills could use a shorter duration.

That challenge is mostly abpout speed, to execute stuff in rapid, right order. My idea of challenge is situational spells that require more knownledge, less speed. Currently if i solo a dungeon, its mostly about avoiding the damage, in some cases i also have to do certain amount of damage to succeed. Then there is naturally movement, which is part of avoiding damage.

As a mage, all that running, rolling, dodging and jumping makes it feel wrong. Mages for me, have been about knownledge and using spells to avoid damage, using right kind of spell to avoid that flame damage just in time, not just using general shield spell. Shield spells in my idea of mage are about shielding the mage from common ravel sword swingers and such who are not really a big threat, but when facing bigger threats, the mage needs more knownledge like using right kind of resistance boost in just right time, so when he sees that wall of flames approach, he casts a flame resistance spell to handle that particular damage that shield alone cant hold, then again that flame resistance spell wont work for lightning, so if you memorize wrong spells before fight, you will lose and die. Damaging enemies should be more like this too. Undead having great resistances for almost anything exept physical damage, so cast that bolt of ice to hit them hard or if the enemy is simple human, they pretty much get same hit from any spell. Having an ice atronach facing you in battle, you need to use flame magick and so forth.

Naturally these mechanics for enemies that are boss types or similar, not basic "trash" as MMO folks say.

Maybe my idea of gameplay difficulty is more of a D&D based while ESO is more of an action rpg style closer to CS or CoD maybe. Still previous TES games have been much more like D&D that ESO is, ESO is quite a bit simplified version of TES.

Starlock

Tapio75 wrote: »

Maybe my idea of gameplay difficulty is more of a D&D based while ESO is more of an action rpg style closer to CS or CoD maybe. Still previous TES games have been much more like D&D that ESO is, ESO is quite a bit simplified version of TES.

I think this worth expanding on a bit, because I come from a more proper RPG background as well.

Since Oblivion, Bethesda has gone the route of modifying their games to appeal to the broadest audiences possible. True RPGs do not have broad appeal, and over time we can observe them discarding and removing important elements of RPGs. As they did this, the important distinction between character skill and player skill that is present in true RPGs has pretty much gotten lost. This is not at all atypical of RPGs that become action games, as the Elder Scrolls series has done. Instead of refining RPG elements, they have dropped them from their games in favor of action game elements. As such, your observation is spot on - ESO is more of an action game. And action games, apparently, like short duration abilities.

Basically, ESO is trying to be as simple as possible because simple has broad appeal. I wish it was more complex. I wish character skill was a lot more meaningful than it is. I wish things like buffs were longer in duration and use of abilities was more diverse and strategic. But then, my favorite types of games are proper RPGs that, thankfully, are enjoying something of a resurgence lately (though they still aren't particularly mainstream). ESO isn't trying to be one of those,.

Everest_Lionheart

Tapio75 wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

I play mostly solo. With that being said if durations of these abilities went any longer there would be no challenge trying to solo any dungeons especially on my magplar. I can lay down enough AOE after I buff up that half the enemies in mobs are dead before they can get one hit in. Throw in skills that return HP and some shield procs it’s easy mode.

I do sacrifice single target damage for the build so vet trials are probably out for me but other than that the rest of the game is a breeze. In all honesty half these skills could use a shorter duration.

That challenge is mostly abpout speed, to execute stuff in rapid, right order. My idea of challenge is situational spells that require more knownledge, less speed. Currently if i solo a dungeon, its mostly about avoiding the damage, in some cases i also have to do certain amount of damage to succeed. Then there is naturally movement, which is part of avoiding damage.

As a mage, all that running, rolling, dodging and jumping makes it feel wrong. Mages for me, have been about knownledge and using spells to avoid damage, using right kind of spell to avoid that flame damage just in time, not just using general shield spell. Shield spells in my idea of mage are about shielding the mage from common ravel sword swingers and such who are not really a big threat, but when facing bigger threats, the mage needs more knownledge like using right kind of resistance boost in just right time, so when he sees that wall of flames approach, he casts a flame resistance spell to handle that particular damage that shield alone cant hold, then again that flame resistance spell wont work for lightning, so if you memorize wrong spells before fight, you will lose and die. Damaging enemies should be more like this too. Undead having great resistances for almost anything exept physical damage, so cast that bolt of ice to hit them hard or if the enemy is simple human, they pretty much get same hit from any spell. Having an ice atronach facing you in battle, you need to use flame magick and so forth.

Naturally these mechanics for enemies that are boss types or similar, not basic "trash" as MMO folks say.

Maybe my idea of gameplay difficulty is more of a D&D based while ESO is more of an action rpg style closer to CS or CoD maybe. Still previous TES games have been much more like D&D that ESO is, ESO is quite a bit simplified version of TES.

I play my stamina melee class way different. It has to move a lot because the best way to mitigate damage is to move. It’s a DW with bow backbar. Very fast paced. Hit move, combo move, block counter move again. No choice really thankfully warden class has those burst heals and shield for mitigation when the going gets tough. It’s definitely a different play style, very reactive so it can lead to many more mistakes.

My post above was regarding my magicka Templar. It spends more time standing in a rune letting the fights come to it but when I’ve got several enemies that are casters or archers I obviously need to take the fight to them.

The one thing that I wish worked better though was enemies taking additional damage from traditional sources. It seems they all have generic physical or spell resistance. The variance would be nice but you have an entire class but around fire. Imagine if several enemies were resistant to 1 class. Of course so much of the game is based around undead and naturally you would think by comparison a DK would rip through them with ease. That’s just not the case or at least there isn’t any significant difference between classes though there probably should be. Same with choice of staff in battle. Hitting a flame atronach with a fire staff should do little damage but it doesn’t. But as you say it’s an action RPG, the thinking part isn’t required beyond timing and placement of skill/spells.

Mortiis13

When I first played eso I hated those short duration buffs.
But now I somewhat like em after thinking about it.
It's a tactical compenent of the combat.
rebuff, keep pressure, heal up, cc, repositioning , Los play .

The right choices in the right moment makes a skillfully player, not a rotation, not the gear.

Tapio75

@Starlock

You are right.

After thinking about this whole matter, i think it would be best for me to just accept the combat as it is, though when i heard about ESO coming to reality, i had high hopes and thought that the game would be more "Sandbox" type of RPG made true to other TES games, if at least to Skyrim level. A game that was aimed to certain type of players which being more traditional TES players maybe. Game that worked pretty much as the previous ones did, but with other players and endless possibilities, something like EvE is on space but with medieval setting, magick and adventure.

MMORPG's all want so large audiences these days, that none are truly good, in my opinion, there should be more much smaller games made for smaller audience to make players happier, but money talks.

I used to play AD&D games a lot and as a kid the traditional too. Last i played D&D online, but i also would like some new games too. Can you recommend one?

Nut while i play ESO, i think i just stick to doing my RP in travels and such and accept the combat as is. I still like the lore and stories so thats why i have been here for so long and each character is a new story too.

Everest_Lionheart

Mortiis13 wrote: »

When I first played eso I hated those short duration buffs.
But now I somewhat like em after thinking about it.
It's a tactical compenent of the combat.
rebuff, keep pressure, heal up, cc, repositioning , Los play .

The right choices in the right moment makes a skillfully player, not a rotation, not the gear.

For sure. Though gear can compensate for weakness in a rotation just as certain skill morphs or weapon glyphs can trade survivability or sustain for damage. The meta mostly chases maximum DPS to power through mechanics. It does simplify the game and is necessary in some instances because you don’t want some of these bosses getting all of their adds or extra chances at wipe mechanics which none of your short or long duration skills are going to overcome.

Managing skill durations is an art form in itself but with a well rehearsed (practiced) rotation makes it more mechanical (repeatable) and more efficient. If everything is up 95-100% of the time there is no need for reaction. Key binds of certain skills play a large role in that too. I see a lot of players setting up skills in order of duration, that streamlined the process and makes things even more mechanical.

The only real reactionary play in this game is PvP. Live humans don’t have code that makes them nearly as predictable so you have to react and repetitive button mashing is only going to drain rss and get you killed. This is why you don’t bring PVE character to PVP and vice versa. Those characters can exist in both environments but aren’t generally as effective. Though any decent PvP character an survive in most PvE because the content is much easier. The same can’t be said for a decent PvE in PvP though, you’ll get smashed in a hurry.

Starlock

Tapio75 wrote: »

After thinking about this whole matter, i think it would be best for me to just accept the combat as it is, though when i heard about ESO coming to reality, i had high hopes and thought that the game would be more "Sandbox" type of RPG made true to other TES games, if at least to Skyrim level.

You can still sort of play it that way. I do, and it is easier to do that now in ESO than it was at launch because of the One Tamriel update. There are also small touches the game makes that help facilitate a more "sandbox" feel. You do not, for instance, have to use wayshrines at all. With a handful of exceptions, you can travel everywhere by using between zone transition points or navigators/caravans throughout the world. And overland is easy enough that you can build your character any way you like and have it work okay. The challenge is to work within the limitations of the game. I find that somewhat fun.

Tapio75 wrote: »

I used to play AD&D games a lot and as a kid the traditional too. Last i played D&D online, but i also would like some new games too. Can you recommend one?

There are quite a lot of them now - haven't gotten to playing them all. I think my favorite of the new ones so far is probably Divinity: Original Sin 2. The developers of that game are the ones doing the new Baldur's Gate 3. It has a very good turn-based combat system and while it is fairly linear, it's a solid title and the soundtrack is amazing. There are also a bunch of titles built using the Unity engine that feel a lot like the classic cRPGs (think Neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale, etc.). Pillars of Eternity is probably the most well-known title. It has a sequel, and some other more traditional cRPGs would be titles like Torment: Tides of Numenera, Wasteland 2, Tyranny, and Pathfinder: Kingmaker. Like I said, there's been a resurgence in these types of games so we finally have new ones after the genre basically died for a solid decade or so.

Coppes

Mortiis13 wrote: »

When I first played eso I hated those short duration buffs.
But now I somewhat like em after thinking about it.
It's a tactical compenent of the combat.
rebuff, keep pressure, heal up, cc, repositioning , Los play .

The right choices in the right moment makes a skillfully player, not a rotation, not the gear.

The difference in a short duration buff/debuff vs a long duration buff/debuff is the same “tactically”. To me, it’s needlessly tedious. And is probably because ZoS wants you a slot(s) more frequently than 20s or so.

But I imagine PvE would just be boring. And most of your time would spammable, weave, spammable (x15) then reapply dots, rinse and repeat.

ESO, in my opinion, is the same as most MMOs when it comes down to how PvP is played.

To me, people will disagree, but the lack of cooldowns in ESO really dilutes the ‘strategic’ combat.

Everest_Lionheart

Coppes wrote: »

Mortiis13 wrote: »

When I first played eso I hated those short duration buffs.
But now I somewhat like em after thinking about it.
It's a tactical compenent of the combat.
rebuff, keep pressure, heal up, cc, repositioning , Los play .

The right choices in the right moment makes a skillfully player, not a rotation, not the gear.

The difference in a short duration buff/debuff vs a long duration buff/debuff is the same “tactically”. To me, it’s needlessly tedious. And is probably because ZoS wants you a slot(s) more frequently than 20s or so.

But I imagine PvE would just be boring. And most of your time would spammable, weave, spammable (x15) then reapply dots, rinse and repeat.

ESO, in my opinion, is the same as most MMOs when it comes down to how PvP is played.

To me, people will disagree, but the lack of cooldowns in ESO really dilutes the ‘strategic’ combat.

The short durations fit more into a rhythm when you are playing. The mistake people make is missing those skills or not keeping them up because they expire so quickly. Any lag in the game play and you are done. The amount of skills you have to fire off can cause sustain issues especially in a burst.

Long durations opposite problems. You lose track of time and forget to reactivate or you reactivate too soon and don’t maximize your up time so you miss some DPS in your rotation because you could have got another 1-3 cycles of your main damage skill in. In general those skills also cost more rss so in a burst situation if you burst out all your buffs and aoe without generating enough rad in between you’ll also run out. Also if you go overboard on your spammable you may not be able to fire off all your buffs.

It’s different pacing for sure. You are essentially in control of the cool down period on your rss as opposed a timer for when the skill can be used. It’s easy in the heat of the moment sometimes to mismanage rss And you get stuck heavy attacking to get them back. I make the error several times over in solo play where the only buffs I’ve got are my own. You can click faster and weave more than 1 LA skill per second (or .9 seconds whatever the kooky math is) But you won’t like the results because you’ll use up your rss in a hurry.

So short duration you may be inclined to rush a bit if you aren’t disciplined and make unforced errors. Long duration you may get caught napping and miss an important skill tying to cram as much DPS into your large buff window, but you can play it safe and just recast the skill early at the expense of DPS. Too end numbers using either type of buff have learned to be as efficient as possible.

MarzAttakz

Coppes wrote: »

Mortiis13 wrote: »

ESO, in my opinion, is the same as most MMOs when it comes down to how PvP is played. To me, people will disagree, but the lack of cooldowns in ESO really dilutes the ‘strategic’ combat.

Agreed. Here's a button I can push, I'm going to push it, because it doesn't matter that I've already pushed it, I can push it again whenever I want, if my bar will swap, if the server will let me and if I have some resource for it.

Meh. I'm getting too old for this.

I've spent the last 20 years contorting my fingers on a keyboard, battling 220ms+ latency on a good day to try my best and be competitive against Northern Hemisphere players playing at a fraction of the ping. It takes a massive amount of effort and I just don't want to anymore. Pvp was far more strategic in other cooldown based games, I enjoyed them more.

ESO doesn't really have to change too much, a few more seconds on buffs would reduce a fair amount of strain, reliable servers would be great.

Different strokes for different generations...

MarzAttakz

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

The short durations fit more into a rhythm when you are playing. The mistake people make is missing those skills or not keeping them up because they expire so quickly. Any lag in the game play and you are done. The amount of skills you have to fire off can cause sustain issues especially in a burst.

Long durations opposite problems. You lose track of time and forget to reactivate or you reactivate too soon and don’t maximize your up time so you miss some DPS in your rotation because you could have got another 1-3 cycles of your main damage skill in. In general those skills also cost more rss so in a burst situation if you burst out all your buffs and aoe without generating enough rad in between you’ll also run out. Also if you go overboard on your spammable you may not be able to fire off all your buffs.

It’s different pacing for sure. You are essentially in control of the cool down period on your rss as opposed a timer for when the skill can be used. It’s easy in the heat of the moment sometimes to mismanage rss And you get stuck heavy attacking to get them back. I make the error several times over in solo play where the only buffs I’ve got are my own. You can click faster and weave more than 1 LA skill per second (or .9 seconds whatever the kooky math is) But you won’t like the results because you’ll use up your rss in a hurry.

So short duration you may be inclined to rush a bit if you aren’t disciplined and make unforced errors. Long duration you may get caught napping and miss an important skill tying to cram as much DPS into your large buff window, but you can play it safe and just recast the skill early at the expense of DPS. Too end numbers using either type of buff have learned to be as efficient as possible.

Good points about rhythm and your point about lag destroying that rhythm are spot on.

I levelled a MagDK recently running Elf Bane and I have to admit skill/buff durations around 15secs felt better for me. Short enough to have to be aware of them, long enough that I could play at a fast enough pace that matched my latency (220ms+-).

Everest_Lionheart

MarzAttakz wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

The short durations fit more into a rhythm when you are playing. The mistake people make is missing those skills or not keeping them up because they expire so quickly. Any lag in the game play and you are done. The amount of skills you have to fire off can cause sustain issues especially in a burst.

Long durations opposite problems. You lose track of time and forget to reactivate or you reactivate too soon and don’t maximize your up time so you miss some DPS in your rotation because you could have got another 1-3 cycles of your main damage skill in. In general those skills also cost more rss so in a burst situation if you burst out all your buffs and aoe without generating enough rad in between you’ll also run out. Also if you go overboard on your spammable you may not be able to fire off all your buffs.

It’s different pacing for sure. You are essentially in control of the cool down period on your rss as opposed a timer for when the skill can be used. It’s easy in the heat of the moment sometimes to mismanage rss And you get stuck heavy attacking to get them back. I make the error several times over in solo play where the only buffs I’ve got are my own. You can click faster and weave more than 1 LA skill per second (or .9 seconds whatever the kooky math is) But you won’t like the results because you’ll use up your rss in a hurry.

So short duration you may be inclined to rush a bit if you aren’t disciplined and make unforced errors. Long duration you may get caught napping and miss an important skill tying to cram as much DPS into your large buff window, but you can play it safe and just recast the skill early at the expense of DPS. Too end numbers using either type of buff have learned to be as efficient as possible.

Good points about rhythm and your point about lag destroying that rhythm are spot on.

I levelled a MagDK recently running Elf Bane and I have to admit skill/buff durations around 15secs felt better for me. Short enough to have to be aware of them, long enough that I could play at a fast enough pace that matched my latency (220ms+-).

I’ve gone from DW stamwarden to double destro magplar. It’s crazy the difference in the style. My warden needed that tight rotation and felt like I needed to play fast And take the action to my enemies where my Templar is the polar opposite. It’s way smoother and I general I draw the enemies to me to kill them. Where I managed buttons before and the placement of my own character on the warden I manage timers and placement of enemies/skills with my Templar.

Both are fun in their own way but one is definitely easier to manage than the other and that is the Templar. Too many mistakes on the warden for a variety of reasons, most human error, sometimes lag related. Biggest error, pressed wrong button in the rhythm and didn’t get a buff in until it came around again in the rotation. That’s the drawback to mechanical play. Templar if I miss I just skip the spammable, nobody needs to over jab (or in my case sweep) to win fights anyway.

cheemers

Buff sorcs thread?

Tapio75

cheemers wrote: »

Buff sorcs thread?

Heh... Actually Sorcerers are one of my favorites, maybe the favorite class in ESO and others being Templar on magicka/resto staves plus Nightblade with bow and flame staff being vampire. All of those exept Sorc are very unorthodox "builds" which is the way i like it and made to work wuite relaxed phase while at same time, being able to do almost anything exept being good at PVP.

Though they are not really builds to me but characters

Starlock wrote: »

Tapio75 wrote: »

After thinking about this whole matter, i think it would be best for me to just accept the combat as it is, though when i heard about ESO coming to reality, i had high hopes and thought that the game would be more "Sandbox" type of RPG made true to other TES games, if at least to Skyrim level.

You can still sort of play it that way. I do, and it is easier to do that now in ESO than it was at launch because of the One Tamriel update. There are also small touches the game makes that help facilitate a more "sandbox" feel. You do not, for instance, have to use wayshrines at all. With a handful of exceptions, you can travel everywhere by using between zone transition points or navigators/caravans throughout the world. And overland is easy enough that you can build your character any way you like and have it work okay. The challenge is to work within the limitations of the game. I find that somewhat fun.

Tapio75 wrote: »

I used to play AD&D games a lot and as a kid the traditional too. Last i played D&D online, but i also would like some new games too. Can you recommend one?

There are quite a lot of them now - haven't gotten to playing them all. I think my favorite of the new ones so far is probably Divinity: Original Sin 2. The developers of that game are the ones doing the new Baldur's Gate 3. It has a very good turn-based combat system and while it is fairly linear, it's a solid title and the soundtrack is amazing. There are also a bunch of titles built using the Unity engine that feel a lot like the classic cRPGs (think Neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale, etc.). Pillars of Eternity is probably the most well-known title. It has a sequel, and some other more traditional cRPGs would be titles like Torment: Tides of Numenera, Wasteland 2, Tyranny, and Pathfinder: Kingmaker. Like I said, there's been a resurgence in these types of games so we finally have new ones after the genre basically died for a solid decade or so.

That is basically the way i have been playing much of the time. Yesterday i made a new khajit to do that again. I usually walk in cities, yes walk, not run. Use horse to move distances and boats or caravans to get across continent or to an islan. Its pretty fun. Kheldar the Wanderer will do that with his troupe

Thanks for the pointers I take those are single player games? I do like them more, because like Skyrim, i can tweak them to be exactly what i want to be with mods to represent the style of game i wish MMORPG's in the other hand are great, necause there is an opportunity to meet new friends and human controlled characters give life to the game... That is, when there are not too many of thpose characters, because the immersive feel of a long ost ruin is gone when there is a flock of other players. I remember GW1 being nice in that way, because i could meet people in city and go adventure with those that are like myself. Pretty much the same as DDO was. LOTRO was also great on RP perspective, but both DDO and LOTRO could use some new graphics.

Then again being different in gaming world from other makes it hard to find like minded folks But one can try

My latency is about 110 almosy all the time. It was 40 on the launch day though but moving servers to Europe made it hop to 110. Im on Finland and i have tracerouted and whatnot and the lines are good, but the server is not weell optimized. This makes it often, that when i have to play a character i want to perform very well, i need to use barswap, which fails more than often, also abilities wont fire after swaps and too fast paced combat often makes nothing work. For example trying to add elemental weapon to allready fast play, makes that fail and then the next ability and then i again need to swap to get some buffs up and so forth.. Then its just frustration since nothing works.

Even having both actionbars on separate keybinds instead of being under swap button, would help in this i guess. Swap should only be for weapons, but then there the weapon skills that pose problem.

And in any case, i dont like the way combat is. Id like it to be more meaningful.

Mortiis13

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Mortiis13 wrote: »

When I first played eso I hated those short duration buffs.
But now I somewhat like em after thinking about it.
It's a tactical compenent of the combat.
rebuff, keep pressure, heal up, cc, repositioning , Los play .

The right choices in the right moment makes a skillfully player, not a rotation, not the gear.

For sure. Though gear can compensate for weakness in a rotation just as certain skill morphs or weapon glyphs can trade survivability or sustain for damage. The meta mostly chases maximum DPS to power through mechanics. It does simplify the game and is necessary in some instances because you don’t want some of these bosses getting all of their adds or extra chances at wipe mechanics which none of your short or long duration skills are going to overcome.

Managing skill durations is an art form in itself but with a well rehearsed (practiced) rotation makes it more mechanical (repeatable) and more efficient. If everything is up 95-100% of the time there is no need for reaction. Key binds of certain skills play a large role in that too. I see a lot of players setting up skills in order of duration, that streamlined the process and makes things even more mechanical.

The only real reactionary play in this game is PvP. Live humans don’t have code that makes them nearly as predictable so you have to react and repetitive button mashing is only going to drain rss and get you killed. This is why you don’t bring PVE character to PVP and vice versa. Those characters can exist in both environments but aren’t generally as effective. Though any decent PvP character an survive in most PvE because the content is much easier. The same can’t be said for a decent PvE in PvP though, you’ll get smashed in a hurry.

[
Was talking about pvp, forgot to say it.
I share your whole opinion.