Mass Hysteria vs Turn Evil

Artorias24

Mass Hysteria:
Cast Time: Instant
Radius: 6 Meter
Cost: 3780 Magicka
Description:
Summon a dark spirit to terrify up to 6 enemies, causing them to cower in fear for 3-5 seconds.

Turn Evil:
Cast Time: Instant
Radius: 5 Meter
Cost: 4590 Stamina
Description:
Brand the earth at your location with a rune of protection for 20 seconds. You and your allies in the area gain Minor Protection and Minor Endurance, reducing your damage taken by 8% and increasing your Stamina Recovery by 10%. Upon activation, enemies in the area are feared for 5 seconds.

So the magicka "fear" only avaible to Nightblades fears Up to 6 enemies. Thats it.

The stam Version avaible to every class fears everyone without limit and gives minor protection and endurance for 20 seconds If you stand in the rune.

Why is mass hysteria so weak compared to Turn Evil? How can this be ok with your new standards? I dont see any reason why turn evil is much more potent then a class skill.

Give some love to mass hysteria please.

frozzzen101

Remove minor vulnerability from ambush and give it here. Also put fear off global cooldown without annoying windup.

FoolishOptimist

Manifestation of Terror summons two spirits, one placed at your feet and one at you desired ranged location. Each fears 6 creatures for a total of 12. There's a slight time delay which isn't a huge burden in either PvP or PvE. Incredibly potent on a tank and in PvP it's best used to set up as a trap for an oncoming enemy, followed by surprised at-range burst.

Honestly I don't know why more people don't use it over Mass Hysteria.

Artorias24

FoolishOptimist wrote: »

Manifestation of Terror summons two spirits, one placed at your feet and one at you desired ranged location. Each fears 6 creatures for a total of 12. There's a slight time delay which isn't a huge burden in either PvP or PvE. Incredibly potent on a tank and in PvP it's best used to set up as a trap for an oncoming enemy, followed by surprised at-range burst.

Honestly I don't know why more people don't use it over Mass Hysteria.

This delay is important in pvp tho. When under heavy pressure you want to stun them as fast as possible and this smal delay can be your death.

Or you only have a smal time window to apply your burst and need this stun instant. For example your enemy is in 70% and you want to stun him before he heals up and burst him. The smal delay gives him time to heal up again.

Anyway. Mass Hysteria needs a buff If you look at turn Evil. Apply minor vulnerability for 5 seconds and give ambush an snare in return. That would make Nightblades also a good choice in pvp groups and also pve tanks can benefit from this.

LuxLunae

Well, I was complaining how zos had something NBs had and made it do that forced animation that breaks the game over and over again... and forces 2 break frees in one second when server lag occurs...

So Zos listened and added it for everybody to use for it to be fair. I am loving it so much....

Sanguinor2

There is an easy Explanation how this applies to Zos Standards. That Explanation being that Zos Standards are double Standards.
Look at some of their "standartization" changes:

Nightblade keeping constant minor berserk=bad, warden keeping constant minor berserk=fine.
Wings hardcounter to projectiles=bad, shimmering hardcounter for projectiles=fine, buffing ball of Lightning to be a hard counter for projectiles=fine.
Major defile uptime on reverb=bad, Major defile uptime+very high Damage on blastbones=fine.
No cc+big Damage on shalks=good, cc+big Damage on Dizzy=also good.
Cast times on some burst ults=good, no cast times on other burst ults=also good.

And you can Keep this list going for a while longer.

Tommy_The_Gun

About the cost of those skills:
Mass Hysteria:
Cost: 3780 Magicka

Turn Evil:
Cost: 4590 Stamina

If you will run it on a very common setup that is in a game, utilizing Undaunted passives, you will probably run 5 - 1 - 1 armour setup. (5 heavy, 1 medium, 1 light) then medium Wind Walker passive & light Evocation passive reduce the cost of those abilities to:

Mass Hysteria:
Cost: 3600 Magicka

Turn Evil:
Cost: 3700 Stamina

^ Making those skills even more drastic in effectiveness.

Mass Hysteria, this AOE still has a target cap. In 2020 eso. Progressing the skill and picking a morph... all it does is it increases target cap. The only other AOE in game that still has a target cap is Werewolf Roar skill, but even that gains additional effects (like of-balance for example) when picking a morph.

Personally I don't use Mass Hysteria anymore on my NB. In fact, I don't use any of my class skills, since some time ago I was looking a way to improve my build, and I did a "skill audit" of my own, trying to find best skills I had available... I ended up with a mixture of weapon / guild / world skill lol... because those are better than NB class skils...

A while back, I have made a very similar thread. It is obvious NB skill is weaker and it needs some buffs.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/523414/nb-aspect-of-terror-morphs-vs-other-ccs#latest

MaleAmazon

Mass hysteria works on a stamblade´s off-stat, and gives major resolve (and some health).

Turn evil, while improved from the smelly garbage it used to be (which is good), has a smaller radius and forces you to stay inside it for a minor boost.

Nope, don´t see the major discrepancy. As a magblade I would take the class skill for the resolve, over turn evil. I mean, I only use it in PvP for the fear, i e the second or two it takes for the enemy to break free. I am not going to stand around in a 5 m radius.

merevie

1st - if combined with cloak, this is a mobile disruption that can wreck ball group proxy/ult dumps/split off the tail if one can count and cut across their run 2/3 of the way through. Also helps control enemies in combination with stam friend's ccs when outnumbered, while still allowing mobility.

2nd -good for stand and layer defense situations, such as templars on flags, on rams in front of keeps before they're lit etc. Not any good when you're trying fight people that won't be where you want them to be.

3 -the necro fear -not mentioned -really messes people/groups up -hard to avoid -good synergy

Qbiken

The skill would be fine if you could follow up and hit anyone with any follow up burst, like a bow proc or an incap like you could in the past. But ZOS keeps being stubborn with keeping the cast time on incap/soulharvest and the ridicilous travel time on the bow proc.

Artorias24

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Mass hysteria works on a stamblade´s off-stat, and gives major resolve (and some health).

Turn evil, while improved from the smelly garbage it used to be (which is good), has a smaller radius and forces you to stay inside it for a minor boost.

Nope, don´t see the major discrepancy. As a magblade I would take the class skill for the resolve, over turn evil. I mean, I only use it in PvP for the fear, i e the second or two it takes for the enemy to break free. I am not going to stand around in a 5 m radius.

I didnt Count the passives it provides but turn evil also gives 3% more weapon damage and on current builds that can be about 100-200 more weapon damage.

Yes it procs major resolve but other skills do the same. And cloak is a must have on a Nightblade. Be it invisibility or dark cloak as a strong heal. And yes you get some HP out of it, i know.

But my Point still stays. Mass Hysteria is simply a stun for 6 enemies. While back then it Had also maim and a snare? I am not sure about the snare.

I needs a buff to at least bring it in line with all the stuff Turn Evil offers.

Artorias24

merevie wrote: »

1st - if combined with cloak, this is a mobile disruption that can wreck ball group proxy/ult dumps/split off the tail if one can count and cut across their run 2/3 of the way through. Also helps control enemies in combination with stam friend's ccs when outnumbered, while still allowing mobility.

Can also be done with Turn evil, even more efficent since you dont have a target Cap.

Ragnaroek93

Would ruin the class identity of Nb which is having weaker skills than everybody else. Mark target < ele drain, sa < dizzy, Fear < almost every other stun, Nb execute < executioner, death stroke < 2h ult and the list goes on...

MaleAmazon

Yes it procs major resolve but other skills do the same. And cloak is a must have on a Nightblade. Be it invisibility or dark cloak as a strong heal. And yes you get some HP out of it, i know.

But my Point still stays. Mass Hysteria is simply a stun for 6 enemies. While back then it Had also maim and a snare? I am not sure about the snare.

As for the 3% passive, TBH I am not sure of the formula, if it adds that to the base stats or buffed stats, but in any case you would need 6500ish WD to get 200 WD out of it. That is a lot.

And, I am just saying I don´t see a huge discrepancy. I wouldn´t mind Nightblade buffs since my main is a magblade. However with veiled strike being gutted and not everyone wanting to *spam* cloak, it is a convenient way to get the resolve buff since even on a non-HA user, it lasts roughly as long as the stun immunity. I don´t know of any skills that conveniently give me major resolve, though I might have missed it since they constantly change skill effects around.

Artorias24

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Yes it procs major resolve but other skills do the same. And cloak is a must have on a Nightblade. Be it invisibility or dark cloak as a strong heal. And yes you get some HP out of it, i know.

But my Point still stays. Mass Hysteria is simply a stun for 6 enemies. While back then it Had also maim and a snare? I am not sure about the snare.

As for the 3% passive, TBH I am not sure of the formula, if it adds that to the base stats or buffed stats, but in any case you would need 6500ish WD to get 200 WD out of it. That is a lot.

And, I am just saying I don´t see a huge discrepancy. I wouldn´t mind Nightblade buffs since my main is a magblade. However with veiled strike being gutted and not everyone wanting to *spam* cloak, it is a convenient way to get the resolve buff since even on a non-HA user, it lasts roughly as long as the stun immunity. I don´t know of any skills that conveniently give me major resolve, though I might have missed it since they constantly change skill effects around.

On my Nightblade build i get about 6k weapon damage. I just Made a test:

Without 3%: 5934
With 3%: 6049

And fully fully Buffed:
Without 3%: 6523
With 3%: 6650

So its about 100-150 on high weapon damage builds. But this is only New Moon / hundings rage. There are builds that can get way Higher. Fury/New Moon or Fury/Alchemist.

So those 3 % do come pretty late in the formula.

I just want Nightblade to give more group utility. I am forced to play stamden/stamcro/stamplat or maybe stamDK for great group synergy.

I like stamblade with 2h/s&b setup and dark cloak. But you are pretty useless in a group and the group would perform better with other classes.

MaleAmazon

I agree that NBs are not great at group utility. They are arguably loners by nature (I am aware this is a weak argument that I don´t really support myself, all classes should have group use). You do have group utility stuff though, like minor savagery which is AFAIK hard to get otherwise.

But really, it is slightly unfair to compare a skill which needs to be handled carefully since it synergizes well for a bombblade, with what is a defensive stun.

Just saying I find that it fits on my bar. But by all means, boost everything on my bars

Nerftheforums

Honestly I'm all for stamnbs to not have group utility. They are freaking assassins, everything in our tool kit shouts single target high burst damage. I don't want my class to be ruined and become an hybrid st/group utility/group damage poop class. Let out identity be, if you wanna play in a group, go magnb or soemthing that has been designed for group purposes.

pod88kk

I think that Turn Evil should only fear Vamps and WWs like before

laksikus

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

About the cost of those skills:
Mass Hysteria:
Cost: 3780 Magicka

Turn Evil:
Cost: 4590 Stamina

If you will run it on a very common setup that is in a game, utilizing Undaunted passives, you will probably run 5 - 1 - 1 armour setup. (5 heavy, 1 medium, 1 light) then medium Wind Walker passive & light Evocation passive reduce the cost of those abilities to:

Mass Hysteria:
Cost: 3600 Magicka

Turn Evil:
Cost: 3700 Stamina

^ Making those skills even more drastic in effectiveness.

Mass Hysteria, this AOE still has a target cap. In 2020 eso. Progressing the skill and picking a morph... all it does is it increases target cap. The only other AOE in game that still has a target cap is Werewolf Roar skill, but even that gains additional effects (like of-balance for example) when picking a morph.

Personally I don't use Mass Hysteria anymore on my NB. In fact, I don't use any of my class skills, since some time ago I was looking a way to improve my build, and I did a "skill audit" of my own, trying to find best skills I had available... I ended up with a mixture of weapon / guild / world skill lol... because those are better than NB class skils...

A while back, I have made a very similar thread. It is obvious NB skill is weaker and it needs some buffs.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/523414/nb-aspect-of-terror-morphs-vs-other-ccs#latest

The target cap is not entirely true.

There are no damage aoes that have a cap.
But most cc skills fo have a target cap of 6. Soul tether, mass hysteria, dawnbreaker.
In fact im prerty sure tgat turn evil is the only cc that doesnt have this cap

ccfeeling

More complain, more nerf

Bradyfjord

pod88kk wrote: »

I think that Turn Evil should only fear Vamps and WWs like before

But all those players from other alliances are evil too. (end sarcasm) 🍺

Artorias24

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Honestly I'm all for stamnbs to not have group utility. They are freaking assassins, everything in our tool kit shouts single target high burst damage. I don't want my class to be ruined and become an hybrid st/group utility/group damage poop class. Let out identity be, if you wanna play in a group, go magnb or soemthing that has been designed for group purposes.

I think changing Mass Hysteria giving minor vol. wont hurt your Assassin's playstyle U would even help it

John_Falstaff

@MaleAmazon , all classes have their designated group minor named buff, it's by design like that, and it's not a justification for NBs not having any other group utility. The Minor <whatever> is the minimal baseline for all classes to bring to the group, Savagery for NBs, Brutality for DKs, Toughness for wardens, and so on. But thing is, other classes have more on top of their minimal group offering.

@Nerftheforums , thing is, NBs also don't carry their own buffs either. For a lone assassin image, you're too reliant on group to provide you with Fracture (mark is horrid), Minor Berserk and so on. As a solo type, warden is much more viable, they're walking self-buffed machines, while NBs not only don't have anything to offer for the group, but they also can't provide themselves with many buffs.

MaleAmazon

all classes have their designated group minor named buff, it's by design like that, and it's not a justification for NBs not having any other group utility.

I know that all classes have their minor group buff. And like I wrote I didn´t think it was a justification. Nightblades do, however, have other skills that help the group. I am sure you know better than I do the relative power of these, since I mostly play solo. I simply pointed out that mass hysteria isn´t a stand-your-ground group buffing skill. That doesn´t mean it is horrific. I don´t much care if they boost it or not.

And when you go into a smaller scale PvP area, I´d say it is noticeable that nightblades seem quite alive and well. Perhaps less so in Cyrodiil zergs, but, yeah well, nightblades were on top once, now not so, but class power will fluctuate like the summer winds...

John_Falstaff

MaleAmazon wrote: »

all classes have their designated group minor named buff, it's by design like that, and it's not a justification for NBs not having any other group utility.

I know that all classes have their minor group buff. And like I wrote I didn´t think it was a justification. Nightblades do, however, have other skills that help the group. I am sure you know better than I do the relative power of these, since I mostly play solo. I simply pointed out that mass hysteria isn´t a stand-your-ground group buffing skill. That doesn´t mean it is horrific. I don´t much care if they boost it or not.

And when you go into a smaller scale PvP area, I´d say it is noticeable that nightblades seem quite alive and well. Perhaps less so in Cyrodiil zergs, but, yeah well, nightblades were on top once, now not so, but class power will fluctuate like the summer winds...

That's the thing. I don't know of such skills. Not in group PvE anyway, which is what I mostly had in mind. They don't have group synergies outside of ultimates. They don't have own easily available buffs. Surprise Attack's debuff is laughable, since it applies to armor left after all debuffs, and in PvE targets - important ones anyway - are already debuffed. Weapon damage reduction on PE is interesting but seldom makes difference, since for single target you don't slot that skill, and you seldom need that debuff in trash packs. Slotting Lotus Fan in PvE is a big loss of personal damage. So... I don't see why NBs can benefit the group; and if group's magicka (as it often the case in latest trials), even their minor buff is useless. And after latest PTS changes, I'll plain want to kick stamblades out of the group (as I'm PvE tank main) since they'll be making everything CC immune with their spammable, and without even giving me a single synergy to soothe the pain of dealing with it.

Small-scale PvP pushes NBs into very specific playstyles, it's mostly ganking and bombing, and those styles suffered greatly with growing tankiness and NBs themselves getting stripped of their burst - but others will say more on this.

Moose_Scout

The main thing wrong with mass hysteria is that it just...doesn't...work...it....is...so...slow...and...almost...as....painful...as....reading...this...

MaleAmazon

Small-scale PvP pushes NBs into very specific playstyles, it's mostly ganking and bombing, and those styles suffered greatly with growing tankiness and NBs themselves getting stripped of their burst - but others will say more on this.

Well, I am not saying they are strong at the moment. But imo you can play them reasonably well. ZOS hit their burst hard because it was deemed too strong. You do have 10% (when maxed) damage reduction, resource leech, magickasteal, and ally heal. They are decent, and I am sure they will be improved if people make a reasonable case as to why they are weak. In the meantime, there are other classes if endgame PvE trials is your thing.

I mean, I remember the death recaps that just said ambush ambush ambush ambush ambush, so... it´s ok if they aren´t top dog for a while

John_Falstaff

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Small-scale PvP pushes NBs into very specific playstyles, it's mostly ganking and bombing, and those styles suffered greatly with growing tankiness and NBs themselves getting stripped of their burst - but others will say more on this.

Well, I am not saying they are strong at the moment. But imo you can play them reasonably well. ZOS hit their burst hard because it was deemed too strong. You do have 10% (when maxed) damage reduction, resource leech, magickasteal, and ally heal. They are decent, and I am sure they will be improved if people make a reasonable case as to why they are weak. In the meantime, there are other classes if endgame PvE trials is your thing.

I mean, I remember the death recaps that just said ambush ambush ambush ambush ambush, so... it´s ok if they aren´t top dog for a while

My brain may be having hard time tonight, but what NBs have magickasteal on? I can't recall. o.O Resource leech is just another way of sustain, every class has some, and it doesn't mean NBs are better, just someone has netch (which also cleanses and doesn't depend on being in combat), someone has 'oh @#$!' resource restore on ultimate, NBs have leech (and it's not even combined with any side effect like purge). It's not necessarily better than others, it's just different way of sustaining, each class has one. 10% damage reduction is not bad, but it's on a burst skill, so after you did what little burst you have, you've lost all your tankiness for at least 5 GCDs. Ally heal with what? There are two skills, both magicka, and neither make actual sense using in any kind of PvP. Unless you mean ultimate, which, again, is seldom useful.

Classes needn't be top dogs, they need to be balanced, because it's a bad situation when it's 'flavor of the month' style, where one month we see ambush, another dizzy and blastbones. It's an unhealthy state of the game.

MaleAmazon

My brain may be having hard time tonight, but what NBs have magickasteal on?

Debilitate.

It's not necessarily better than others, it's just different way of sustaining, each class has one.

Never said it was better. But it is 20 seconds of self healing and resource restore with burst restore at the end.

Anyway I´m gonna leave this discussion now, need to play some and sleep some. GN.

John_Falstaff

@MaleAmazon , fair. ^^ I clean forgot about that skill; don't think anyone's using it in PvP or PvE, the tradeoff is too big - damage's way worse and immobilization is hard to give up on, even after it lost Expedition.

And what do 20 seconds of self-healing change if NBs still have the worst self-healing of all classes in PvP and are forced to wear backbar resto? How strong something is can only be learned in comparison, and comparison's not in favor of NBs. Have good time playing now that you finally don't have NB-related death recaps, but don't argue when it's turn of your class and nobody will have your death recaps. :P Good night.

Danksta

John_Falstaff wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

all classes have their designated group minor named buff, it's by design like that, and it's not a justification for NBs not having any other group utility.

I know that all classes have their minor group buff. And like I wrote I didn´t think it was a justification. Nightblades do, however, have other skills that help the group. I am sure you know better than I do the relative power of these, since I mostly play solo. I simply pointed out that mass hysteria isn´t a stand-your-ground group buffing skill. That doesn´t mean it is horrific. I don´t much care if they boost it or not.

And when you go into a smaller scale PvP area, I´d say it is noticeable that nightblades seem quite alive and well. Perhaps less so in Cyrodiil zergs, but, yeah well, nightblades were on top once, now not so, but class power will fluctuate like the summer winds...

That's the thing. I don't know of such skills. Not in group PvE anyway, which is what I mostly had in mind. They don't have group synergies outside of ultimates. They don't have own easily available buffs. Surprise Attack's debuff is laughable, since it applies to armor left after all debuffs, and in PvE targets - important ones anyway - are already debuffed. Weapon damage reduction on PE is interesting but seldom makes difference, since for single target you don't slot that skill, and you seldom need that debuff in trash packs. Slotting Lotus Fan in PvE is a big loss of personal damage. So... I don't see why NBs can benefit the group; and if group's magicka (as it often the case in latest trials), even their minor buff is useless. And after latest PTS changes, I'll plain want to kick stamblades out of the group (as I'm PvE tank main) since they'll be making everything CC immune with their spammable, and without even giving me a single synergy to soothe the pain of dealing with it.

Small-scale PvP pushes NBs into very specific playstyles, it's mostly ganking and bombing, and those styles suffered greatly with growing tankiness and NBs themselves getting stripped of their burst - but others will say more on this.

What are they going to be CC'ing? Bosses? Should be using cleave in trash pulls, or at the very least whirling blades. Imagine a DPS using a single target spammable in trash pulls.