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PTS Forum useless?

Shanan
Shanan
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Anyone with me that the PTS forum seems to be useless? There are so many good/useful changes/wishes from the community which should have been implemented. Unfortunately the community gets completly ignored? 4 PTS cycles and i do only see changes mostly to the furnishings? What kind of communication is that?

greetings
PC EU - Ravenwatch - @Shanan - VON VENGERBERG
  • Elsonso
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    No. It is not ignored. It is not useless. It is true that it is one way and that we do not get feedback on the feedback from the devs, but that does not mean that it is useless, or ignored. Not a popular stance, but it is true.
    ESO Plus: No
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • Sanguinor2
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    Most of what goes into PTS patch 1 is there to stay. Thats the way it has Always been, no matter how disastrous the idea and no matter how many Point it out. The only Thing where they went back on in somewhat recent times during a regular PTS cycle was the Shield changes in murkmire PTS. Just look at the Dot rollercoaster. Everyone with some experience told Zos dots were way overbuffed, no dice, still went live. Next PTS dots get completely destroyed to an even weaker state than pre dot buffs and everyone tells Zos its a bad idea and that there should be something between 9 Dot rotations and many dots not being worth the bar space they would occupy, yet here we are with most dots being worthless.
    Politeness is respecting others.
    Courage is doing what is fair.
    Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
    Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
    Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
    Honor is keeping ones word.
  • Sephyr
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    Yeah, it's pretty much useless. Maybe one day if they figure out how to legitimately communicate and get back in touch with the playerbase and the state of the game it might not be, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Forum feedback, in this game or others, succeeds mainly at two extremes.

    Small and simple bugs and the like might get fixed. E.g., the problem cited in the thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456990/praxis-clockwork-control-panel-single was fixed in the next PTS patch days later.

    At the other extreme, perhaps one choice per upgrade cycle may get changed due to massive uproar. (Example: Shield skills were going to get cast times. That idea .... failed.)
  • Vaoh
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    This combat team has a weird vision for how the game should play, and are currently changing everything to accommodate that vision. It runs contrary to how ESO has been balanced for years and has massive disapproval from the playerbase.

    [snip]

    [Edited to remove Bashing]
    Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 19, 2020 12:23PM
  • Dracane
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    It is easy to get frustrated. But the pts forum is not useless. We have changed or prevented alot of bad things here in the past and there are recent examples for this.

    We never get everything we would like to see and yes, they continue making or suggesting very bad and thoughtless changes. Still, this game would very very VERY dramatic at this point if we were not here, I can tell you that. :D
    Auri-El is my lord,
    Trinimac is my shield,
    Magnus is my mind.

    My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos
  • Sephyr
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    Vaoh wrote: »
    This combat team has a weird vision for how the game should play, and are currently changing everything to accommodate that vision. It runs contrary to how ESO has been balanced for years and has massive disapproval from the playerbase.

    Just have to hope we get a new combat lead at this point. Wrobel was 1000% better.

    It's very sad that we've gotten to the point where we miss him.
  • Rake
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    I feel it is not too acknowledged by the ones we gather info for
  • Canned_Apples
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    Only 0.00001% is acknowledged. They don’t even bother with the rest.
    This was supposed to be a balance patch, yet they didn’t balance anything. Cutting dive wasn’t updated even though they nerf off balance.
  • Wuuffyy
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    No. It is not ignored. It is not useless. It is true that it is one way and that we do not get feedback on the feedback from the devs, but that does not mean that it is useless, or ignored. Not a popular stance, but it is true.

    How so? If it’s true. Why does it take 4-5 years for simple QoL updates such as crafting multiples on console. Convince me otherwise. This is not hate, but you didn’t support your argument at all. And from what I and most players see, your opinion is false.
    Wuuffyy,
    WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
    ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
    -DM for questions
  • Elsonso
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    .
    Elsonso wrote: »
    No. It is not ignored. It is not useless. It is true that it is one way and that we do not get feedback on the feedback from the devs, but that does not mean that it is useless, or ignored. Not a popular stance, but it is true.

    How so? If it’s true. Why does it take 4-5 years for simple QoL updates such as crafting multiples on console. Convince me otherwise. This is not hate, but you didn’t support your argument at all. And from what I and most players see, your opinion is false.

    This is because our role is to provide feedback, which they are going to get. Our role is not to determine how important something is, how to do it, whether it will be done, or when.

    They listen, but that does not mean they obey.
    ESO Plus: No
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • universal_wrath
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    .
    Elsonso wrote: »
    No. It is not ignored. It is not useless. It is true that it is one way and that we do not get feedback on the feedback from the devs, but that does not mean that it is useless, or ignored. Not a popular stance, but it is true.

    How so? If it’s true. Why does it take 4-5 years for simple QoL updates such as crafting multiples on console. Convince me otherwise. This is not hate, but you didn’t support your argument at all. And from what I and most players see, your opinion is false.

    This is because our role is to provide feedback, which they are going to get. Our role is not to determine how important something is, how to do it, whether it will be done, or when.

    They listen, but that does not mean they obey.

    The main point of providing feedback is to seek improvement. 5 years now and 0 performance improvement. It does not matter if they listen and answer on for, as long as there is no improvment, feedback is useless. I did a thread on bug fixes on bugs section for a bug that has been going on for about a 1 or so, and even posted it on pts bug reports for one of major key skills not working properly. Guess what? Bug still exist. Balance is issue for 5 years and magsorc was apex class in pvp 5 years ago, magsorc is still 1# pvp class. Performance and lag in cyrodiil. Some Basic undaunted dungeons still bugged today with no fixes in sight.
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    .
    Elsonso wrote: »
    No. It is not ignored. It is not useless. It is true that it is one way and that we do not get feedback on the feedback from the devs, but that does not mean that it is useless, or ignored. Not a popular stance, but it is true.

    How so? If it’s true. Why does it take 4-5 years for simple QoL updates such as crafting multiples on console. Convince me otherwise. This is not hate, but you didn’t support your argument at all. And from what I and most players see, your opinion is false.

    This is because our role is to provide feedback, which they are going to get. Our role is not to determine how important something is, how to do it, whether it will be done, or when.

    They listen, but that does not mean they obey.

    The person in the passenger seat doesn't have access to the steering wheel but that doesn't mean that the driver should ignore them when they yell, "STOP the car, we're headed toward a cliff!"
  • Elsonso
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    .
    Elsonso wrote: »
    No. It is not ignored. It is not useless. It is true that it is one way and that we do not get feedback on the feedback from the devs, but that does not mean that it is useless, or ignored. Not a popular stance, but it is true.

    How so? If it’s true. Why does it take 4-5 years for simple QoL updates such as crafting multiples on console. Convince me otherwise. This is not hate, but you didn’t support your argument at all. And from what I and most players see, your opinion is false.

    This is because our role is to provide feedback, which they are going to get. Our role is not to determine how important something is, how to do it, whether it will be done, or when.

    They listen, but that does not mean they obey.

    The person in the passenger seat doesn't have access to the steering wheel but that doesn't mean that the driver should ignore them when they yell, "STOP the car, we're headed toward a cliff!"

    Bad example, mainly because in here it is an opinion, not a cliff. It is more like the passenger, who does not have a drivers license and has never driven a car before, telling the driver to change lanes, speed up, slow down, and turn at a corner because that way is better than the way that the driver is going. This is why they pass laws against having an ejector seat on the passenger side, by the way. :smile:
    ESO Plus: No
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • MLGProPlayer
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    We've been trying to get Brian to respond to the feedback in the official vMA change thread for a month, and he's ignored us completely.

    The the post voicing our displeasure with the change is currently sitting at 210 upvotes (I've never seen a post upvoted that much on this board). Yet a month later, Brian continues to ignore us
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on May 19, 2020 1:59AM
  • Kadoin
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    We've been trying to get Brian to respond to the feedback in the official vMA change thread for a month, and he's ignored us completely.

    The the post voicing our displeasure with the change is currently sitting at 210 upvotes (I've never seen a post upvoted that much on this board). Yet a month later, Brian continues to ignore us

    Where is the post? I need to give it another upvote.
  • MLGProPlayer
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    Kadoin wrote: »
    We've been trying to get Brian to respond to the feedback in the official vMA change thread for a month, and he's ignored us completely.

    The the post voicing our displeasure with the change is currently sitting at 210 upvotes (I've never seen a post upvoted that much on this board). Yet a month later, Brian continues to ignore us

    Where is the post? I need to give it another upvote.

    The one linked in my post. It's in their obscure "Combat & Character Mechanics" forum.

    Meanwhile, Brian's post announcing the change has... 28 upvotes!

    Any sane developer would look at this reaction and question their decision. But not ZOS!
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on May 19, 2020 2:26AM
  • Kadoin
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    Kadoin wrote: »
    We've been trying to get Brian to respond to the feedback in the official vMA change thread for a month, and he's ignored us completely.

    The the post voicing our displeasure with the change is currently sitting at 210 upvotes (I've never seen a post upvoted that much on this board). Yet a month later, Brian continues to ignore us

    Where is the post? I need to give it another upvote.

    The one linked in my post. It's in their obscure "Combat & Character Mechanics" forum too.

    Oh my blue light turned so low the text melds in with background on forum...heh it has been done!
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    Elsonso wrote: »
    .
    Elsonso wrote: »
    No. It is not ignored. It is not useless. It is true that it is one way and that we do not get feedback on the feedback from the devs, but that does not mean that it is useless, or ignored. Not a popular stance, but it is true.

    How so? If it’s true. Why does it take 4-5 years for simple QoL updates such as crafting multiples on console. Convince me otherwise. This is not hate, but you didn’t support your argument at all. And from what I and most players see, your opinion is false.

    This is because our role is to provide feedback, which they are going to get. Our role is not to determine how important something is, how to do it, whether it will be done, or when.

    They listen, but that does not mean they obey.

    The person in the passenger seat doesn't have access to the steering wheel but that doesn't mean that the driver should ignore them when they yell, "STOP the car, we're headed toward a cliff!"

    Bad example, mainly because in here it is an opinion, not a cliff. It is more like the passenger, who does not have a drivers license and has never driven a car before, telling the driver to change lanes, speed up, slow down, and turn at a corner because that way is better than the way that the driver is going. This is why they pass laws against having an ejector seat on the passenger side, by the way. :smile:

    Cyrodiil performance IS objectively a cliff. And we are well over the ledge at this point.

    As for "driver's license" analogies, usually I am not one to exalt amateurism or "simple solutions" over domain expertise but we also all know that there are exquisitely trained catastrophes found in every walk of life and in every profession.

    As someone posted about Wrobel, he began everything with "Is this skill/set going to be fun to use?" and proceeded from there. Could things be OP? Sure, but they were at least fun to use and every class had something unique and dominant. Such a simple approach facilitates power which facilitates joy, which is, ultimately, what action games and playing them is all about.

    Contrast that to the current team that begins all decisions with "Well, what does the spreadsheet say?" and proceeds from there. "Should we nerf the Asylum Destro into Oblivion in the next patch? Let's check the spreadsheet!" Turns out that the Asylum Destro is 1.21 Gigawatts over the allocated "power budget" of its flux capacitor, so, of course, it has to go.

    Because the experts created the spreadsheet and the experts are never wrong. Meanwhile, the forums and guild discords are on fire but since we're all mere players and not omniscient game devs our voices and input are invalid. After all, all we do is play the game so how could we know what's fun?

    Speaking one final time of experts, the combat team strikes me as a group of scientists who have developed a celebrated new hypothesis but who are now receiving new data that potentially refutes it. Rather than modifying the hypothesis to fit the new data or conducting additional experiments, they are instead attempting to cook the new data in order to support the old hypothesis. That's bad science and I'm fairly sure that it's bad game design as well.
  • Fruity_Ninja
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    Vaoh wrote: »
    This combat team has a weird vision for how the game should play, and are currently changing everything to accommodate that vision. It runs contrary to how ESO has been balanced for years and has massive disapproval from the playerbase.

    Just have to hope we get a new combat lead at this point. Wrobel was 1000% better.

    Poor Wrobel. He copped a lot, now we all miss him!

    Also back then we got a lot more interaction on forums from the devs and community team. These days they hardly talk to us :(
  • Sephyr
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    Elsonso wrote: »
    .
    Elsonso wrote: »
    No. It is not ignored. It is not useless. It is true that it is one way and that we do not get feedback on the feedback from the devs, but that does not mean that it is useless, or ignored. Not a popular stance, but it is true.

    How so? If it’s true. Why does it take 4-5 years for simple QoL updates such as crafting multiples on console. Convince me otherwise. This is not hate, but you didn’t support your argument at all. And from what I and most players see, your opinion is false.

    This is because our role is to provide feedback, which they are going to get. Our role is not to determine how important something is, how to do it, whether it will be done, or when.

    They listen, but that does not mean they obey.

    The person in the passenger seat doesn't have access to the steering wheel but that doesn't mean that the driver should ignore them when they yell, "STOP the car, we're headed toward a cliff!"

    Bad example, mainly because in here it is an opinion, not a cliff. It is more like the passenger, who does not have a drivers license and has never driven a car before, telling the driver to change lanes, speed up, slow down, and turn at a corner because that way is better than the way that the driver is going. This is why they pass laws against having an ejector seat on the passenger side, by the way. :smile:

    Cyrodiil performance IS objectively a cliff. And we are well over the ledge at this point.

    As for "driver's license" analogies, usually I am not one to exalt amateurism or "simple solutions" over domain expertise but we also all know that there are exquisitely trained catastrophes found in every walk of life and in every profession.

    As someone posted about Wrobel, he began everything with "Is this skill/set going to be fun to use?" and proceeded from there. Could things be OP? Sure, but they were at least fun to use and every class had something unique and dominant. Such a simple approach facilitates power which facilitates joy, which is, ultimately, what action games and playing them is all about.

    Contrast that to the current team that begins all decisions with "Well, what does the spreadsheet say?" and proceeds from there. "Should we nerf the Asylum Destro into Oblivion in the next patch? Let's check the spreadsheet!" Turns out that the Asylum Destro is 1.21 Gigawatts over the allocated "power budget" of its flux capacitor, so, of course, it has to go.

    Because the experts created the spreadsheet and the experts are never wrong. Meanwhile, the forums and guild discords are on fire but since we're all mere players and not omniscient game devs our voices and input are invalid. After all, all we do is play the game so how could we know what's fun?

    Speaking one final time of experts, the combat team strikes me as a group of scientists who have developed a celebrated new hypothesis but who are now receiving new data that potentially refutes it. Rather than modifying the hypothesis to fit the new data or conducting additional experiments, they are instead attempting to cook the new data in order to support the old hypothesis. That's bad science and I'm fairly sure that it's bad game design as well.

    I couldn't have said this better myself. The fact of the matter is, the state of the game is pretty bad and no amount of white knighting will diminish that fact. Sure, they don't have to 'take the feedback', but at the same time they can't expect us not to criticize constructively--which most of us have been. They can white knight and be verbose all they want--it does not change facts, nor will it.
  • Moose_Scout
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    PTS was really helpful in the early stages of the game... now the game is too big and we are just an annoyance to the devs. They are on the quantity, not quality, train with content right now.
    "What a Grand and Intoxicating Innocence"
  • idk
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    We know the PTS forum is not useless. While it is clear Zos does not take all of our suggestions, it is equally clear they have headed our feedback on specific issues. Case in point from this PTS cycle, Zos did adjust some aspects of the vampire changes.

    Edit: On top of that, it has been noted that Zos pays attention to constructive feedback vs just complaining.
    Edited by idk on May 19, 2020 5:17AM
  • DarcyMardin
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    I’ve rarely seen them make anything more than minor adjustments to the first PTS cycle patch. It seems that by the time content hits the PTS, the only thing they are looking for is bugs (which they might or might not have time to fix).
  • shrekt4303
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    I’ve rarely seen them make anything more than minor adjustments to the first PTS cycle patch. It seems that by the time content hits the PTS, the only thing they are looking for is bugs (which they might or might not have time to fix).

    This is more or less true. Bug fixes should be a primary concern in a pts. I think holding off on class balance is a good decision. The monster set and healing nerfs will shake up the meta a bit and what was once not good may become a viable choice. Magblade needs some adjustments, but i find it performs fine in non cp but fails everywhere else. My worry is they will buff it and it will become over the top in battlegrounds.

    Every mmo i have played in the last 15 years devs kind of did there own thing with class balance. If they listen to the community everything would get nerfed.

    One thing zos needs to improve on is the frequency of their balance changes. If the meta goes stale so does the playerbase. Even a perfectly balanced meta becomes boring. I think having over performing and underperforming classes makes the game more frustrating but also more interesting. Magblades time will come. Just not now. Also i can imagine developers try to pass changes but gets shut down because of marketing.
    No one wants to buy necro if it doesnt perform.

    And the vamp skills not being changed is an unfortunate reality. Lots of time would have to go into making completely new skills. Changing numbers on skills, however, does not. You could see vamp changes in the future, but given zos track record of revisiting things it wont be changed anytime soon. I think the community needs to give the balance team some slack as you dont know what sort of beaucracy b/s they have to deal with.
  • MLGProPlayer
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    I’ve rarely seen them make anything more than minor adjustments to the first PTS cycle patch. It seems that by the time content hits the PTS, the only thing they are looking for is bugs (which they might or might not have time to fix).

    PTS is just marketing for ZOS.
  • Ragnaroek93
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    PTS was so broken this time that nobody even bothered testing stuff.
    I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.
  • OWLTHEMAD
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    In my opinion, from observation, the pts is held far to close to release. I notice a lot of changes and feedback that is put out is typically implemented in the following patch cycle rather than the current one. I dont think the pts forum is useless, its just not properly communicated how and to what degree the devs make use of whats here. In the first place it probably takes them an age and a half to sort through all the comments and arguments here for legitimately useful feed back.
  • Skykaiser_Ọlọrun
    OWLTHEMAD wrote: »
    In my opinion, from observation, the pts is held far to close to release.

    Yeah, FAR too close. Everything is more or less set in stone by the time we get our hands on it and all we can really expect is a few bug fixes and some numbers being bumped around a bit.
  • justaquickword
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    If I were a developer and had to read some of the bile that gets coughed up on this forum, I'd probably ignore most of the playerbase too.

    Supposedly grown up people either whining about inconsequential nonsense or using it to beg for stuff like they are writing a letter to santa..

    Some of you people need to step away from ESO and take a long hard look at yourselves.

    But congratulations to some of you on successfully living up to the "entitled gamer" stereotype.

    Good job.
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