Ridiculous Swing

Noctus

Thoragaal wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

Valabrog wrote: »

What server u are on? Im EU PC and i see that 70% of bg players are magica users (4-6 magsorc, magplars and magdens). I usually have to jerk on borders to avoid ranged attention as a stamdk.

im EU PC most ppl who are successfull in bg are stamina like xziii and decimus or lyball and so on.

in one of his videos hes also using dualwield instead of dizzy swing. this video is with dizzy swing but i confirm he gets same result without dizzy swing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CONovpbgvQE

Too bad that video is from April of 2019 (a year ago); before they nerfed both dual wield and onslaught.
But that time was a fun period for stamina players.. not fair, but fun :P

as i said most successfull EU PVP players mostly stamina or sometimes magscorc occasionally magplar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I81Bx1NRJg&t=170s

Noctus wrote: »

lol alternatives ? stam characters need general nerf u know that right ? 90 % of bg is stamina or magsorc .

I don't see what you're trying to say.
Are you saying that most people, even the top end pvp'ers play stamina, therefor stamina should be nerfed?
The thread is about Dizzy Swing and you show a video of 1) How good it was a year ago, and then 2) A video of someone being successful today not even using Dizzy Swing.
I'm sorry, but I'm not following your argument in relation to the OP.

FIRST VIDEO : i sended becouse i wanted to show the other EUPC player that in high mmr the most successfull ppl are stamina players becouse he said
Valabrog wrote: »
What server u are on? Im EU PC and i see that 70% of bg players are magica users (4-6 magsorc, magplars and magdens). I usually have to jerk on borders to avoid ranged attention as a stamdk.

SECOND VIDEO: and then u said that dual wield got nerfed and kinda implied its not good anymore.
Thoragaal wrote: »
» show previous quotes
Too bad that video is from April of 2019 (a year ago); before they nerfed both dual wield and onslaught.
But that time was a fun period for stamina players.. not fair, but fun :P

and my answer is rather buff the weak mag classes up to par with sorc.
hope this makes sense for u now

Thoragaal

Noctus wrote: »

and my answer is rather buff the weak mag classes up to par with sorc.
hope this makes sense for u now

Alright, ok!
I agree that other abilities (both stam and mag) should have some changes.

My comments about Dual Wield is that it used to be a main weapon type. Nowdays it's mostly used as a buff / backbar.
The video you sent is an excellent example of what you can do with dual wield, however it requires gear from a DLC dungeon that a lot of people don't have access too. His build doesn't function properly without Draugrkin, and if you're using Draugrkin then no other ability but Flurry fully utilize that set. It's an extremely limited build that only really works for one class; sorc.
Dizzy Swing however, you can slap it on any class and with almost any kind of gear to make it work.

I see tons of people just spamming Dizzy Swing. That's not the problem though. Those people are usually playing on a very low mmr and can't do anything without the help of others. Just like if people were spamming any kind of ability and then being backed up by others.

I don't know what to think of Stuhn's Favour though. I see no similar equivalency to mag builds.
And imo the biggest issue with magbuilds (not sorcs) is their limited ability to move. Movement is key in pvp.

shrekt4303

Thoragaal wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

and my answer is rather buff the weak mag classes up to par with sorc.
hope this makes sense for u now

Alright, ok!
I agree that other abilities (both stam and mag) should have some changes.

My comments about Dual Wield is that it used to be a main weapon type. Nowdays it's mostly used as a buff / backbar.
The video you sent is an excellent example of what you can do with dual wield, however it requires gear from a DLC dungeon that a lot of people don't have access too. His build doesn't function properly without Draugrkin, and if you're using Draugrkin then no other ability but Flurry fully utilize that set. It's an extremely limited build that only really works for one class; sorc.
Dizzy Swing however, you can slap it on any class and with almost any kind of gear to make it work.

I see tons of people just spamming Dizzy Swing. That's not the problem though. Those people are usually playing on a very low mmr and can't do anything without the help of others. Just like if people were spamming any kind of ability and then being backed up by others.

I don't know what to think of Stuhn's Favour though. I see no similar equivalency to mag builds.
And imo the biggest issue with magbuilds (not sorcs) is their limited ability to move. Movement is key in pvp.

Problem with mag imo is that managing stamina is really hard. They have to build into more magicka and magical recovery because skill costs are higher than stam variants. Break free cost is too high in bg. Dodge rolling uses 1/4th of their stamina pool. Now if you could have like 1.2k stam recovery and 15k stamina on top of the 35k+ magicka and 1.5k+ recovery requirements you might see something useful. This is from a non cp perspective.

wheem_ESO

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

It's only because most stam classes don't have great spammables for pvp so they're effectively limited to dizzying swing

Every single Stamina player that has the Summerset Chapter has access to Crushing Weapon. Stamina Necromancers and Stamina Warden also have morphs of their class-based spammable. All 3 of these abilities can be used at range (which is often claimed to be super-duper important by many Stam players), and due to itemization should even hit harder than their Magicka counterparts...which are pretty evenly balanced against other Magicka-based, ranged spammables.

The only one of these spammables that I see used at all nowadays is the Cliff Racer, which is pretty rare and only due to the changes it received a while back. If Dizzying Swing was really as mediocre and/or difficult to land as many players like to claim, we should be seeing a lot less of it in favor of the other alternatives. All of which can also be used with 2h weapons, if you want to keep that for other reasons.

But nobody is going to use those 3 spammables, because they're relatively balanced compared to Magicka counterparts, which everyone knows are hot garbage next to Dizzying Swing.

Thogard wrote: »

What people complain about in BGs is very indicative of their MMR.

Not many d swing spammers in high MMR. Just because you see something a lot in BGs doesn’t mean it’s strong. It just means that the even stronger builds are now playing at a higher MMR than you are.

Team cross healing, CC spam (bombard, ice wall, streak, fossilize, in that order), and mag sorc kill steal are the only actually OP things in BGs right now.

Can't say that I (fully) agree. Bombard spam, Charged Ice Staff, etc...are indeed a bit silly, and have been in need of nerfs for ages, but Dizzying Swing spam absolutely exists among the high MMR players, and is far more effective than it should be. Biting Jabs' damage is worse, at least in part due to Burning Light being too strong, but Dizzying Swing most definitely needs some tweaking.

Nord_Raseri

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

It's only because most stam classes don't have great spammables for pvp so they're effectively limited to dizzying swing

Every single Stamina player that has the Summerset Chapter has access to Crushing Weapon. Stamina Necromancers and Stamina Warden also have morphs of their class-based spammable. All 3 of these abilities can be used at range (which is often claimed to be super-duper important by many Stam players), and due to itemization should even hit harder than their Magicka counterparts...which are pretty evenly balanced against other Magicka-based, ranged spammables.

The only one of these spammables that I see used at all nowadays is the Cliff Racer, which is pretty rare and only due to the changes it received a while back. If Dizzying Swing was really as mediocre and/or difficult to land as many players like to claim, we should be seeing a lot less of it in favor of the other alternatives. All of which can also be used with 2h weapons, if you want to keep that for other reasons.

But nobody is going to use those 3 spammables, because they're relatively balanced compared to Magicka counterparts, which everyone knows are hot garbage next to Dizzying Swing.

Crushing weapon is garbage. Again, I personally do NOT run dizzy swing(Too laggy for it for me). I don't run a necro. I do slot cliffracer on my stamden, but I rarely play that toon. So what about stamsorc and stamdk?

wheem_ESO

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

It's only because most stam classes don't have great spammables for pvp so they're effectively limited to dizzying swing

Every single Stamina player that has the Summerset Chapter has access to Crushing Weapon. Stamina Necromancers and Stamina Warden also have morphs of their class-based spammable. All 3 of these abilities can be used at range (which is often claimed to be super-duper important by many Stam players), and due to itemization should even hit harder than their Magicka counterparts...which are pretty evenly balanced against other Magicka-based, ranged spammables.

The only one of these spammables that I see used at all nowadays is the Cliff Racer, which is pretty rare and only due to the changes it received a while back. If Dizzying Swing was really as mediocre and/or difficult to land as many players like to claim, we should be seeing a lot less of it in favor of the other alternatives. All of which can also be used with 2h weapons, if you want to keep that for other reasons.

But nobody is going to use those 3 spammables, because they're relatively balanced compared to Magicka counterparts, which everyone knows are hot garbage next to Dizzying Swing.

Crushing weapon is garbage. Again, I personally do NOT run dizzy swing(Too laggy for it for me). I don't run a necro. I do slot cliffracer on my stamden, but I rarely play that toon. So what about stamsorc and stamdk?

People often claim that Dizzying Swing is just oh-so-terrible because there aren't any other alternatives, and that poor underpowered Stamina builds are "forced" to deal with some horrible cast time that's borderline impossible to land...which is all bunk. The fact of the matter is that Dizzying Swing makes almost everything look like garbage in comparison. Of course Crushing Weapon looks terrible when you're comparing it to something which does 60-100% more damage while also having ties to the current iteration of Off-Balance + snares. That's because Crushing Weapon is more balanced against Magicka-based spammables, and not the King-of-the-Generics (aka, Dizzying Swing).

You'll see some Magicka builds using Elemental Weapon, but essentially 0 Stam builds running Crushing Weapon. The reason is simple - Magicka doesn't have better alternatives (unless you're a Mag DK or Mag Templar), and Stamina does. If they switched the secondary effects between the two morphs of the Psijic spammable, do you think things would change? Do you really think any Stam builds are going to take such a huge damage-cut in order to gain the random status effect proc?

Maybe you don't use Dizzying Swing, but almost all Stam builds do. And it's not because they don't have any other alternative. Instead, it's because Dizzying Swing is absolutely hands down superior to everything other than Jabs/Sweeps and Whip. The damage is drastically higher, and it has ties to CC mechanics.

Nord_Raseri

So you're saying all stamdks and stamsorcs should be instead forced to run crushing weapon as a spammable?(whitch it is NOT a spammable, it depends on immediately using a LA after use). Neither of those classes have a reliable spammable.

Chilly-McFreeze

wheem_ESO wrote: »

People often claim that Dizzying Swing is just oh-so-terrible because there aren't any other alternatives, and that poor underpowered Stamina builds are "forced" to deal with some horrible cast time that's borderline impossible to land...

Since they shortened the cast time nobody really argues that dizzy is "borderline impossible" to land when the serves run okayish . That's a narrative you raise to undermine opposing opinions. I'm not sure how or if I should even take lag into consideration at this state of the game, but whatever.

The fact of the matter is that Dizzying Swing makes almost everything look like garbage in comparison. Of course Crushing Weapon looks terrible when you're comparing it to something which does 60-100% more damage while also having ties to the current iteration of Off-Balance + snares. [snip]

Or maybe it is because Flurry's damage is laughable and Crushing Weapons is clunky, extremely clunky on melee? Did you even try to use it on anything but ranged builds? That's it's biggest issue. I'd even go as far as saying that it's more clunky than old dizzy.
BTW the difference between DS and CW isn't nearly as big as you claim. It's more like 28%.

You'll see some Magicka builds using Elemental Weapon, but essentially 0 Stam builds running Crushing Weapon. The reason is simple - Magicka doesn't have better alternatives (unless you're a Mag DK or Mag Templar), and Stamina does.

Would be to funny having a 28m Dizzy Swing, wouldn't it?

If they switched the secondary effects between the two morphs of the Psijic spammable, do you think things would change? Do you really think any Stam builds are going to take such a huge damage-cut in order to gain the random status effect proc?

Again, magicka, or better yet, ranged builds use CW/EW more because it's far more reliable to use on a ranged light attack.

Maybe you don't use Dizzying Swing, but almost all Stam builds do. And it's not because they don't have any other alternative. Instead, it's because Dizzying Swing is absolutely hands down superior to everything other than Jabs/Sweeps and Whip. The damage is drastically higher, and it has ties to CC mechanics.

Fine, give every stam class some build in class dmg skills (spams, layered burst) and you can have dizzy. Until then, live with it. Even if you'd delete Uppercut entirely, Flurry would still be a *** skill. Did you even notice that Bloodthirst does barely more damage than uncharged Power Slam? Like 4%? Rapid's at 10% over uncharged PS. And that's if you can land every hit and well, if power slam has no stacks build up.

Nord_Raseri

@Chilly-McFreeze thank you. I have a hard time articulating my thoughts. You said it better than I ever could.

Thoragaal

Noctus wrote: »

[...] most ppl who are successfull in bg are stamina like xziii and decimus or lyball and so on.
[...]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I81Bx1NRJg&t=170s

I just want to thank you for letting me know about DecimusHD (on twitch). I've watched him a few days now and he seems like an awesome guy and streamer!
But I can't agree that "he's stamina" because he seems to be playing a bit of everything. For example a Dark Flare lobbing magicka templar :P

wheem_ESO

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

So you're saying all stamdks and stamsorcs should be instead forced to run crushing weapon as a spammable?(whitch it is NOT a spammable, it depends on immediately using a LA after use). Neither of those classes have a reliable spammable.

Can you quote the part where I said that Dizzying Swing should be deleted from the game? I simply said that, despite some claims to the contrary, there actually are alternatives to Dizzying Swing. The "issue" is that those alternatives are more balanced against magicka-based spammables, and Dizzying Swing stands head-and-shoulders above all but Jabs/Sweeps and Whip. And yes, Crushing Weapon is a spamamble. Its specific functionality is somewhat unique, sure, but it serves the same purpose for all non-ganking builds.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Since they shortened the cast time nobody really argues that dizzy is "borderline impossible" to land when the serves run okayish . That's a narrative you raise to undermine opposing opinions. I'm not sure how or if I should even take lag into consideration at this state of the game, but whatever.

There are fairly recent posts where people complain about the cast time as though it were some kind of huge impediment that makes the skill hard to land. One person on the PTS forum was even sure to put that part of their post in bold, obviously trying to emphasize the importance.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Or maybe it is because Flurry's damage is laughable and Crushing Weapons is clunky, extremely clunky on melee?

I've seen Flurry hit for ~5k before in BGs. Whip and Puncturing Sweeps are the only magicka-based spammables I've seen reach those numbers. Sure, Flurry might be clunky, and perhaps it needs to go through some changes to make it more fluid for PvP, but the damage certainly isn't laughable.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

BTW the difference between DS and CW isn't nearly as big as you claim. It's more like 28%.

Compared to any Magicka spammable, other than Whip and Puncturing Sweeps, Dizzying Swing absolutely does more than 28% extra damage in practice. Maybe Stamina-itemization is indeed such that Crushing Weapon would outshine Elemental Weapon by a larger margin than I think. It's hard to say since nobody uses Crushing Weapon these days...and why would they, with how silly-strong Dizzying Swing is right now.

If your numbers were correct, I should be getting hit a lot harder by Force Pulse and whatnot. The gap in resistances provided by light armor passives is not enough to explain such a huge difference, especially since opposing light armor builds also have built in penetration and are frequently using Elemental Drain.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Would be to funny having a 28m Dizzy Swing, wouldn't it?

I don't think the current iteration of Dizzying Swing should exist at any range. From a more generic balance standpoint, I think it's fine if melee range spammables have some sort of a bonus; either in damage or utility. The current difference in damage and ties to CC + snare mechanics is way too much, though.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Again, magicka, or better yet, ranged builds use CW/EW more because it's far more reliable to use on a ranged light attack.

And because alternatives are more balanced. You can compare various magicka-based spammables to one another and weigh the pros and cons, then decide which one you would prefer to use. For Stamina builds, even if Crushing Weapon wasn't clunky at all, virtually everyone would still use Dizzying Swing. Unless you have access to the absurdity that is Biting Jabs + Burning Light, Dizzying Swing is the obvious choice...it's simply better than everything else. Which is sort of the definition of overpowered, is it not?

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Fine, give every stam class some build in class dmg skills (spams, layered burst) and you can have dizzy. Until then, live with it. Even if you'd delete Uppercut entirely, Flurry would still be a *** skill. Did you even notice that Bloodthirst does barely more damage than uncharged Power Slam? Like 4%? Rapid's at 10% over uncharged PS. And that's if you can land every hit and well, if power slam has no stacks build up.

Venom Skull is essentially balanced with magicka-based spammables, and can be used at range regardless of weapon type. I would be 100% fine with every Stamina build having access to such a skill. 'Course, without a re-balance of Dizzying Swing, they would all continue to use that instead, and scoff at the puny magicka-esque class spammable just like Stamina Necromancers do.

Nord_Raseri

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Dizzying Swing stands head-and-shoulders above all but Jabs/Sweeps and Whip.

So what you want is to nerf dizzy, jabs/sweeps, and whip?

wheem_ESO wrote: »

And yes, Crushing Weapon is a spamamble. Its specific functionality is somewhat unique, sure, but it serves the same purpose for all non-ganking builds.

Again, no, crushing weapon is not a spammable, it is a buff to a single light attack if used within 3 seconds.

Chilly-McFreeze

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Since they shortened the cast time nobody really argues that dizzy is "borderline impossible" to land when the serves run okayish . That's a narrative you raise to undermine opposing opinions. I'm not sure how or if I should even take lag into consideration at this state of the game, but whatever.

There are fairly recent posts where people complain about the cast time as though it were some kind of huge impediment that makes the skill hard to land. One person on the PTS forum was even sure to put that part of their post in bold, obviously trying to emphasize the importance.

Building your argument on what "one person" or two said is anything but a solid foundation. Everyone worth their salt acknowledges that with shortening the cast time to fit into the gcd and simplyfying the aim check stripped a good chunk of player skill from the skill. Nontheless, it's still a tad more clunky than instan cast abilities but that's mostly due to bad server perfomance. I just returned from a break that I took because even crit rush didn't fire while standing directly in front of the opponent. But then again, I'm no fan of molding skills around latency issues.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Or maybe it is because Flurry's damage is laughable and Crushing Weapons is clunky, extremely clunky on melee?

I've seen Flurry hit for ~5k before in BGs. Whip and Puncturing Sweeps are the only magicka-based spammables I've seen reach those numbers. Sure, Flurry might be clunky, and perhaps it needs to go through some changes to make it more fluid for PvP, but the damage certainly isn't laughable.

And I've seen Flurry barely tickle classes with build in defense in BG. Maybe your Flurry hits got buffed by Draugrkin or Deadly Strikes?

I must admit I'm getting confused more and more with that comparison. Are you saying we have "good" spams like Dizzy, Sweeps and Whip and mediocre/ bad spams in Imbue, Pulse, Clench... ? So what is your main concern? Is soley DS op? Are DS, Sweeps and Whip op? Do you think magicka spams are underperforming? Or do you think every spam beside DS, Sweeps, Whip is underperforming?
Maybe we should clear that up before we go on.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

BTW the difference between DS and CW isn't nearly as big as you claim. It's more like 28%.

Compared to any Magicka spammable, other than Whip and Puncturing Sweeps, Dizzying Swing absolutely does more than 28% extra damage in practice. Maybe Stamina-itemization is indeed such that Crushing Weapon would outshine Elemental Weapon by a larger margin than I think. It's hard to say since nobody uses Crushing Weapon these days...and why would they, with how silly-strong Dizzying Swing is right now.

If your numbers were correct, I should be getting hit a lot harder by Force Pulse and whatnot. The gap in resistances provided by light armor passives is not enough to explain such a huge difference, especially since opposing light armor builds also have built in penetration and are frequently using Elemental Drain.

I was comparing tooltips from dizzy to crushing weapons on two of my builds. ZOS seems to push damage on melee and channeled spams compared to ranged insta casts. You can argue how fair that is but it was so ever since. Even tho I find it disturbing that Flurry is still so weak. Risk/ reward is a thing, but I admit that kiting is strange in ESO with the option to gap closer spam and difficult "getting-away" on most mag classes.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Would be to funny having a 28m Dizzy Swing, wouldn't it?

I don't think the current iteration of Dizzying Swing should exist at any range. From a more generic balance standpoint, I think it's fine if melee range spammables have some sort of a bonus; either in damage or utility. The current difference in damage and ties to CC + snare mechanics is way too much, though.

So we agree on the melee bonus. I also agree that the addition of a snare was completely unasked for. I ask myself if you'd still argue that dizzy does to much if they brought Clench back up?

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Again, magicka, or better yet, ranged builds use CW/EW more because it's far more reliable to use on a ranged light attack.

And because alternatives are more balanced. You can compare various magicka-based spammables to one another and weigh the pros and cons, then decide which one you would prefer to use. For Stamina builds, even if Crushing Weapon wasn't clunky at all, virtually everyone would still use Dizzying Swing. Unless you have access to the absurdity that is Biting Jabs + Burning Light, Dizzying Swing is the obvious choice...it's simply better than everything else. Which is sort of the definition of overpowered, is it not?

Before they stomped DW and SnB into the gutter I remember a bigger variety of stamina builds. SnB builds were very common, but their spams got nerfed. DW spin trains were a common sight that got (rightfully) nerfed. But this skill line suffers from a mediocre spam, lackluster utility (beside cloak) and an awful ultimate. Dizzy got popular when they nerfed the alternatives, reduced it's cast time and buffed onslaught.
But sure, if you cut down the hedges the tree will always look bigger.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Fine, give every stam class some build in class dmg skills (spams, layered burst) and you can have dizzy. Until then, live with it. Even if you'd delete Uppercut entirely, Flurry would still be a *** skill. Did you even notice that Bloodthirst does barely more damage than uncharged Power Slam? Like 4%? Rapid's at 10% over uncharged PS. And that's if you can land every hit and well, if power slam has no stacks build up.

Venom Skull is essentially balanced with magicka-based spammables, and can be used at range regardless of weapon type. I would be 100% fine with every Stamina build having access to such a skill. 'Course, without a re-balance of Dizzying Swing, they would all continue to use that instead, and scoff at the puny magicka-esque class spammable just like Stamina Necromancers do.

Venom Skull is essentially balanced as a ranged skill. On classes that can go full ranged that would be a bonus. On classes that are pushed towards melee however that isn't a bonus. Travel time, lower damage just to have a ranged option when everything else is melee? Everything else like an execure or dots you may or may not want to apply etc. That's why those class spams (skull, birds, pebble) suck. If they were melee they would be balanced differently.

All in all we have to ask ourselves what we want to accomplish.
In the past there was a variety of stam spams used. ZOS decided to nerf DW and SnB into mediocrity while buffing the 2h line. If we cut down 2h too, we would be left with nothing but awful spams. So should we nerf dizzy or should we make Crushing, DW and SnB viable alternatives again?

Noctus

Thoragaal wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

[...] most ppl who are successfull in bg are stamina like xziii and decimus or lyball and so on.
[...]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I81Bx1NRJg&t=170s

I just want to thank you for letting me know about DecimusHD (on twitch). I've watched him a few days now and he seems like an awesome guy and streamer!
But I can't agree that "he's stamina" because he seems to be playing a bit of everything. For example a Dark Flare lobbing magicka templar :P

yeh hes one of the typical high mmr players on my server. hmmm didnt play much bg lately tbh but back when i was playing alot bg we often met and he was stamina all the time. he probably experiment around these days. i didnt know he has twitch thx for the info i like watching fellow high mmr players (to study their weaknesses )